Does anyone know if the 92,672 "spoiled" Ohio ballots will be counted?

[flpoljunkie]

--in the recount, that is. "Spoiled" ballots are those punch cards ballots which did not register a vote for President when they were run through the machines.

[eomer]

1. I believe that depends on whether a hand count or machine count is done,

which is a county by county decision.

In a particular county they will pick enough precincts to comprise at least 3% of the total ballots. They will hand count and machine count the 3%. If the two counts match then they do a machine count of the whole county. If the two counts don't match then they do another hand count of the subset precincts. If this hand count matches the machine count then they machine count the whole county. If neither of the hand counts match the machine count then they hand count the whole county.

Only if they hand count the whole county will they examine the spoiled ballots by hand and apply the chad rules to determine intent.

[flpoljunkie]

2. Thank you for your explanation.

Let's hope we can move from handcounting the 3% of the precincts to the entire county and then the entire state.

Am concerned about how the 3% of precincts are chosen. If they are in Republican precincts, they will no doubt, match.

[eomer]

3. I'm not up to speed on how they pick the 3% precincts

and agree that it is important.

On the other hand, no matter which precincts they pick, it still seems likely to me that the hand count and machine count won't match. Unless the voting machines somehow worked much better than they did in Florida 2000 then we should see various issues with the chads that make the hand count different than the machine count.

[Doremus]

4. Spoiled ballots were never counted in the first place

So, yes, the plan is to count them in total.

Unlike Florida, Ohio has consistent standards for spoiled ballots (chads -- two corners detached = no vote, three corners detached = vote).

The Greens etc. are doing an OUTSTANDING job of preparing for the recount. When it's done we can have confidence it was a thorough, professional effort and that poll books, signatures, chads, etc., etc., were checked -- assuming Blackwell doesn't succeed in thwarting their plans. The Great Obstructionist isn't going to allow them easy access to the smoking guns he knows are there. So while the Greens want to choose which 3% to count, it's unclear whether Katherine will allow them such latitude. The GLibs are fighters, though, so I'm sure they'll pursue as much legally as they can.

[flpoljunkie]

5. According to this article in the SF Chronicle, two corners punched valid

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2004/10/23/MNGKA9F73L1.DTL

But unlike Florida, which had very ill-defined standards for counting punch cards in 2000, Ohio has a simpler "two-corner" standard -- meaning that if two corners of the chad have been punched out, it counts as a vote. Still, the ACLU has filed suit, alleging that the state's use of punch cards will disproportionately hurt voters in minority areas.

__________

Hope this is correct regarding the "two-cornered" standard and how prescient of the ACLU regarding minority voting concerns!

[righteous1]

8. Correct, in addition, pregnant or dimpled chads are not

considered votes

[berniew1]

9. If serious recount is conducted(hand recount), the hanging chad will count

My understanding is the same as the SF Chronicle explanation. But the Ohio officials are trying to convince the public and judiciary that a hand recount is not necessary. It all depends on the degree of public support for the recount likely.

[righteous1]

10. The drawback with the hand recount is

your talking 5.5 million ballots. That would take upwards of 3 weeks to complete and past the date that Congress would vote

[lonestarnot]

12. HAND COUNT!

NEED HAND COUNT!

[mary195149]

23. The 92000 Votes,

are one of the things Kerry has specified he wants to be looked at.

[righteous1]

6. The 93000 ballots are termed under/overvotes and

they will be hand counted. Florida 2000 found ~ 7% of these votes had a discernable vote for president.

[read the law first]

11. Thank you righteous1. I was about to go nuts.

Let's do this again.

A ballot that can not be read = spoiled ballot.
A ballot that doesn't have a vote for a particular race that the machine can read = undervote.
A ballot that has more than one vote for a race = overvote.

Apples, Pears and Oranges are all fruit, but it is proper to call them by their correct names when you are speaking about one individually. This use of spoiled ballot is like saying that the national championship game will be played in the Fruit Bowl rather than the Orange Bowl.

If they want one name for all three use "irregular ballot."



ARRRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[flpoljunkie]

13. It was not I who designated these 92,672 "spoiled" ballots.

Does anyone know how many of these "spoiled" votes and either under or overvotes? It is the state of Ohio that designed these 92,672 votes as "spoiled."

They ought to be part of any recount, but, no doubt, Blackwell will fight tooth and nail against including them in any recount.

[righteous1]

17. Your terminology is wrong

A spoiled ballot is a ballot that is "ruined" for any of a number of different reasons. A voter mistakenly votes for the wrong candidate, changes mind, or somehow screws up etc. The poll worker takes this "spoiled" Ballot and discards it, and issues a new fresh ballot to the voter. These spoiled ballots are garbage. The roughly 93,000 ballots are under/overvotes that the machine did not register for a specific candidate. A general concensus of experts seen to feel that as many as 10% of these 93000 could contain a discernable vote for president or ~ 9300 potential votes

[flpoljunkie]

22. This is not my terminology; it is what has been reported in the media.

Thatis why I put the word in quotes.

[read the law first]

24. Oklahoma and USC will play in the Fruit Bowl. Words don't matter.

I give up. Yes. They will look at the spoiled ballots. And the soiled ballots. and the Soylent Green. and the boiled spoiled. and the spoiled with roil into a boil. See, I told you it was making me crazy?

I heard that a spoiled ballot was a ballot that was not cast because of the lack of machines. Will those spoiled ballots be counted? What if somebody submits an affidavit that says that they would have voted but had to leave the line for work? Will that spoiled ballot get counted? What if they people in the apartment heard that the lines were long and so they just stayed home? What about that spoiled ballot? Will they count those spoiled ballots? And what about somebody who left their ballot out of the refrigerator in the hot sun, will that spoiled ballot be counted? or is that just work with mayonaise?

[AndrewClarke]

15. Here's what the rules say:

Disputed ballots may be settled as they arise by the board or by a
majority of the employees designated as teams, if so delegated by the
board.
. . .
Ballot cards must be inspected for hanging chad attached by one or two
corners, mutilations, and other invalidities. If a chad is attached by three
or four corners, a vote shall not be counted for that particular candidate,
question or issue.
. . .
Over-votes and blank ballots may be separated from the stack at this
time and placed at the top of the stack after the header cards.

It seems to me that they will inspect the ballots for over- and undervotes, but that will be counted by machine just like the other ballots.

The complete rules are here: http://www.sos.state.oh.us/sos/news/guide/recount.pdf

[flpoljunkie]

16. Not clear to me whether these over and undervotes will be

counted at all, unless the board of elections so warrants--since these ballots are set aside.

Are they counted when a hand count is deemed necessary-that is, when the machine count does not match the hand count, and the hand count is deemed accurate after a second recount.

The rules state that all ballots must be hand countedat this point. Does all ballots mean these over and undervotes?

And this, too: Will any recount be done at all if the test program shows no discrepancy between the machine and hand counts? Are these test ballots, actual election ballots?

[RevCheesehead]

7. Will they use the Central Tabulators, or just a plain ol' calculator?

'Cause that in itself might be interesting to see.

[flpoljunkie]

14. Good question. The punch cards can be run back through the machines.

In Florida in 2000, Katherine Harris told election supervisors that a recount did not involve even this--running the opti-scan ballots backthrough the machines--and that her idea of a recount was just reading the machine tape.

Modems are used to send the results to these central tabulating computers--where the fraud would logically take place. Would assume they would not be used for a recount of 3% of precincts.

[eomer]

18. You guys have me confused now

As I understand it, the under and over votes are mixed in with all the other punch cards. The rules seem to say they should be placed at the beginning of the deck but that wouldn't really affect how the machine counts them.

So if the whole county is hand counted then the under and over votes will be examined by hand and the chad rules will be used to count them.

If the whole county is machine counted then the under and over votes will, for the most part, remain uncounted because the machine will count them the same way it did in the original count. The only way a particular card would be counted differently would be due to some mechanical aspect of the count like a chad that fell out between the original count and the recount.

Can anyone tell me that this is not correct and, if so, what rule you're citing to conclude that?

[flpoljunkie]

19. Recount procedure for hand counting punchcards states cards must be

inspected for hanging chads. I still question if the "test desk" consists of actual election ballots. This test is, after all, the first step in the recount procedure.

4.Punchcards

Test the Program

a) Prepare a new test deck of ballot cards that are punched and then manually count them. This deck must not be the same test deck used for the official count.

b) Process the test deck through the computer to verify that the computer count matches the hand count.

c) If the hand count and the computer count do not match, but the hand count is accurate, all ballots must be manually counted.

The Recount

a) Ballot cards must be inspected for hanging chad attached by one or two corners, mutilations, and other invalidities. If a chad is attached by three or four corners, a vote shall not be counted for that particular candidate, question or issue.

b) Overvotes and blank ballots may be separated from the stack at this time and placed at the top of the stack after the header cards.

c) Ballot page assemblies and rotation header cards must be checked for each precinct for candidate positions to verify that each candidate, question, or issue has been properly identified.

d) The board must randomly select whole precincts whose total equals at least 3% of the total vote. These precincts’ ballots must be manually counted.

e) Run the manually counted precincts through the computer.

f) If the computer count does not match the hand count, and after rechecking the manual count the results are still not equal,all ballots must be hand counted. If the results of the computer count and the hand counted ballots are equal, the remainder of the ballots may be processed through the computer and results tabulated electronically.

g) At the conclusion of the recount, the program must be retested using the pre-audited test deck.

[eomer]

20. Thanks for the reply

I see what you mean but find these steps to be disjointed and subject to more than one interpretation.

Step a) of the Recount section seems to be more of a standard to use when doing a manual count than a step with substance. It doesn't say which ballots you're dealing with at this point (3% or whole county) and it doesn't say how this step relates to the other steps.

Steps d), e) and f) seem to me to be the substance of the recount. They seem to be talking about all the ballots of the 3% precincts, not all the ballots minus the under and over votes.

I guess I'll look back at the statute to see if it clears up my questions because these steps leave me with more questions than answers.

[flpoljunkie]

21. Agreed. Recount rules seem ambiguous. Rereading did not help me.

[Carolab]

26. d) worries me

How do they "randomly select"? How does anyone know these have been picked "at random"?

[read the law first]

25. You are absolutely correct.