Ohio Update 12/16 (dailykos)

[SueZhope]

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/12/16/103837/16

by georgia10
Thu Dec 16th, 2004 at 07:38:37 PST

Big update.  In the midst of dueling letters, incriminating affidavits, hearings, and investigations, it helps to remember that there IS a recount going on.  Updates on the recount are below the fold and are from the Cobb site.

As I understand it, 3% of the ballots are choosen at random...they count those and then put them through the machine.  The law states that if they don't "match" there must be an entire reount.  However, as you'll read below, the concept of "match" is pretty ephemeral.  

[goclark]

1. Keep us updated! txs

[Straight Shooter]

2. "ephemeral" is a pretty word for "ambiguous and subject to manipulation"

At least in Blackheart's world it is.

[nolabels]

20. Or maybe unclear, murky and subject to fraud

but thats a slight change from the non-concrete.

Webster's 1913 Dictionary

Definition:

1.

\E*phem"er*al\, a.
1. Beginning and ending in a day; existing only, or no longer
than, a day; diurnal; as, an ephemeral flower.

2. Short-lived; existing or continuing for a short time only.
``Ephemeral popularity.'' --V. Knox.

Sentences not of ephemeral, but of eternal,
efficacy. --Sir J.
Stephen.

{Ephemeral fly} (Zo<"o>l.), one of a group of neuropterous
insects, belonging to the genus {Ephemera} and many allied
genera, which live in the adult or winged state only for a
short time. The larv are aquatic; -- called also {day
fly} and {May fly}.


2.

\E*phem"er*al\, n.
Anything lasting but a day, or a brief time; an ephemeral
plant, insect, etc.



Biology Dictionary

Definition: Short-lived.
(snip)
http://www.hyperdictionary.com/search.aspx?define=ephemeral

on edit forgot the link, love them old dictionaries too :loveya:

[Dolphyn]

22. [self-delete, posted in wrong spot]

[texpatriot2004]

3. Thanks for the link

[smartvoter]

4. Reading this is beyond frustrating. They're refusing to hand count

when it clearly is called for. And not just in Fairfield.

Moreover, why are they refusing access to poll books and other records?

What are they hiding?

[Changenow]

12. Exactly,

whether or not they agree with it the reason to conduct the recount is allay concerns. It is the same reason to have verifiable paper trails, even if the machines really are perfect some people won't trust the results if they can't be audited.

The message in this recount is to let those concerned about fraud know that there is nothing they can do about it, so get lost.

[Griffy]

28. remeber.. be in DC on the 6th... to enforce the will of the ppl! nt

[Junkdrawer]

5. Great Post. Let's keep this one kicked...

:kick:

[tandem5]

6. kick nt

[tandem5]

8. double kick nt

[regularjoe]

7. Good Gravy. They will do anything to avoid a hand recount.

It would take a thousand lawyers just to get these people to follow the law for one day.

regularjoe

[lizzieforkerry]

9. Wow, they made Warren County sound like we were all so nice and

such great friends. That was pretty upsetting to read actually.

[Junkdrawer]

10. The Ohio Recount is Quite an Education…

Activists from all over the nation are being given an eyeball-to-eyeball education on exactly how Democracy is being stolen, county by county, precinct by precinct.

Quashing “conspiracy theories” with Blackwell’s “it would take too many people to actually steal an election” will probably get a whole lot harder.

[EC]

11. do these people think

this is some kind of game they are playing...We should threaten to keep them working at proper re-counts until Christmas Eve if they don't straighten up and do it correctly. Ramdom counties my eye...indeed.

[Dolphyn]

13. K I C K n/t

[DaDeacon]

14. DAMN DAMN DAMN!!!@!

Just WIN if you can win, but when you lose are might lose "TAKE IT LIKE A MAN (or Woman)" . DAMMIT ALL!!!!! Silly Bush Heads should Stop Stalling!

[SueZhope]

16. can you prove who won?

I'm happy to take it like a man/woman when i know i have lost
something..in this case no one can actually prove that bush won.

[peabody71]

15. kick

[DaDeacon]

17. I was talking about Bush ...

Calling Dr. Freud :)

[SueZhope]

19. DaDeacon My apologies if I was confused by what you posted

I thought you had meant that we should GET OVER IT
Im on the defensive i guess...i see you changed the post THANKS!!!

I got you!!OOOOPPSSS

[JohnnyCougar]

18. It doesn't seem like they're finding many discrepancies.

At least ones that indicate widespread fraud.

Just belligerant election board members and machines that should have been repaired or replaced.

[On the Road]

21. If the Machines Didn't Work Correctly During the Recount

you can't make the assumption that they worked correctly during the election. I think that's the point.

[Emit]

27. Kick n/t

[nolabels]

29. Maybe click on the link at the top of thread

That's damning enough, but I am also hearing stories that Blackwell had something to do which precincts were picked to get the initial recount. You might also want to note a swing of 60,000 is a small percentage when your in the millions

[JohnnyCougar]

38. I did click on the link, and read the whole story.

60,000 is a small percentage, but from those anecdotes, it doesn't seem like we are even close to that. The discrepancies are one vote here, one vote there.

Perhaps it will get better when they start doing Cuyahoga County. Has there been any word on those presincts with 30% turnout or less?

[nolabels]

40. Dang, do the math

Okay 7 out 600 is more than 1%, subtract that 1% from Bush and add to Kerry total and figure it out. This is not even figuring in all the other stuff.

Here have some junk from corporate press and let them damn them selves with their own numbers

Certification of Ohio vote won't end controversy

By CARL WEISER
Gannett News Service

WASHINGTON -- This just in: President Bush won Ohio.

The results of Ohio's presidential election are now official - but that doesn't mean the election of 2004 is over in the nation's most-watched state.

Secretary of State Ken Blackwell Monday afternoon signed the official count of votes, showing President Bush won Ohio by 118,775 votes.

That means Bush's margin shrunk by about 17,700 votes compared to the unofficial results right after Election Day. Bush picked up 62,580 votes, while Kerry picked up 80,288, both from provisional ballots and a few overseas absentee ballots.

The final percentage: Bush 50.8 percent, Kerry 48.7 percent.
(snip)
http://www.marionstar.com/news/stories/20041207/localnews/1710237.html

[wiggs]

23. Big question

I understand they hand count the ballots then feed them through the machine to confirm a match.

I'm not sure we care if these two recount methods match. Isn't what we care about is whether or not the hand count matches the original vote tally for that precinct?

When do they compare the hand recount with the orginal vote tally that gave Ohio to Bush?

[nolabels]

31. Read the Kos in the link above

The machine made mistakes in bushes favor, HELLO..........

When a machine gives you an inaccurate total from your hand count could this indicate something is wrong :argh:

[wiggs]

39. What if

What if the hand recount and the machine recount match? Does that show there's no irregularity?

Not necessarily, because what we want is verification of the certified vote tally. For instance, if the hand recount shows Kerry gets 51%...and the machine recount of the same ballots shows that Kerry gets 51%....but the original tally on election night -- now the official tally -- shows Kerry at 49%, then the recount has shown that the official results are bogus.

So my question remains, when do they compare the recount totals with the official tally? THAT IS THE BOTTOM LINE QUESTION!

[glitch]

42. Very good question - the diary doesn't answer. Hopefully someone in Ohio

is asking. Maybe they are doing it and don't need to say they're doing it because it's so obvious.
But I would sure feel more comfortable if the
original count vs. machine recount vs. manual recount
were all publicly stated.

[Dolphyn]

24. I find the Warren North East report particularly disturbing ...

For the recount, they are "re-marking" the ballots so that the machines will be able to discern the voter's intent.

In addition to the obvious concerns about integrity of the permanent record, this means that the original machine count must have frequently failed to discern the voter's intent.

Deliberate fraud or not, the whole process just seems totally invalid.

[vireo]

35. What is the legal status of this "re-marking"?

I find nothing in the state statute that would permit this.

"§ 3515.04 Procedure for recount; stopping recount

At the time and place fixed for making a recount, the board of elections, in the presence of all witnesses who may be in attendance, shall open the sealed containers containing the ballots to be recounted, and shall recount them."
http://moritzlaw.osu.edu/electionlaw/procedures_recount01.html

It does not say "shall alter the ballots so that the machine count matches the hand count thereby allowing discrepancies in the rest of the county to stand."

[sandnsea]

41. We fight for this all the time

We fight to have the will of the voter counted, creating new ballots so the machines can count them is how it's done. This is one of the talking points pubs used in Florida, Dems were creating ballots. It was bullshit then and it's bullshit now. Dems mismark ballots at a much higher rate than pubs, it's to our overall advantage to allow the will of the voter to be considered. Gads, shooting ourselves in the foot again.

[mdb]

25. Match

We all were just talking about what we have been reading from the media about a perfect hand count and machine count match. And asking how can this be possible? Well it appears the media has been giving a different story from the DailyKos story.

[Blue in the face]

26. That was awesome

Thanks for passing it on!

[mdb]

30. Mahoning county is interesting.

For Mahoning county, all absentee ballots were done on optical scan as well as provisional ballots filled out at the board on the day of the election. As a sample test for the recount, 600 absentee ballots were selected at random to make up 3 percent. Those 600 were counted by hand and then put through the optical scanner to see if it matched up.


For Kerry, there were 7 more votes during the hand count than during the machine count.

Those put in the over/under vote pile were ones that were clearly marked for two or more candidates and under votes were ones that clearly had no markings on them.


At the end of the optical scan machine count, the over/under votes were discarded and the ones in the hand count pile were taken and counted by a woman named Joyce. We all watched. For some of the votes, she could not decide because of stray marks or lightly colored in circles so she made a new pile specifically for the board to look at. She put these votes in an open basket. It was decided that the board would have to look at these votes and determine how they should be counted if at all.

-snip-

...the basket to be sent to the board was left untouched, meaning that no one counted or looked at them. We were then told we had to wait about 2 hours for the board to reconvene. When the board reconvened, they handed us spread sheets with the recount numbers on it. Kerry had 109 more votes and Bush had 47. These are vote increases. The board then certified the results and the observers left.

[nolabels]

33. KICK

Knowing this one must figure out how the machines did what they did, very simple.

[republikkkon]

34. wait...

are you saying there was an +18% shift to kerry and a +8% shift to bush (+10% total for kerry) and this is what the media is reporting as "no change" and "exactly the same"?????

am i missing something?????

[bear425]

32. Thanks for the update Sue! n/t

[SueZhope]

36. Thanks bear425

georgia10 from kos did an excellent job.
Thanks to georgia if you might be reading this!

[nolabels]

37. Kicking to the top

This is really interesting, I kind of thought stuff like this would pan out, but never thought so many people would try to ignore it. Us citizens the "We" need to get a good set of REAL lawyers to press this, ..............oh wait, taking to the street also, ........where?

http://www.51capitalmarch.com/

[tommcintyre]

43. Thanks.. n/t

[SueZhope]

44. Ohio Update 12/17 from georgia10 at kos

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/12/17/84659/021