Warm Welcome from Lorain:" Election conspiracy crowd wasting their time.."

[EMunster]

The (Lorain) Morning Journal, Dec. 20

Election conspiracy crowd wasting their time, taxpayer money


Step back, Bigfoot. Fly away, UFOs. Let Elvis and JFK rest in peace. There's a whole new "lunatic fringe" lurching to life in America, and their feverish mission is to battle a fictional "Invasion of the Election-Snatchers.'"

They have met the enemy, but don't recognize that he is their imagination.

Our wish is that they'd take their voting conspiracy hallucinations underground. Abandon us, please, so we can get on with life.

Bush won. Kerry lost.

much more greetings...
http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=13586791&BRD=1699&PAG=461&dept_id=46368&rfi=6

[ProfessorPlum]

1. Nice. It's amazing how these folks say things like

"These allegations have been out there for a long time, and they've been checked into and discredited."

Really? When? By whom? Is a long time more than a month?

La la la (fingers in ears) . . . nothing to see here. Would powerful people cheat to retain power? La la la la . . .

[impeachthescoundrel]

3. Well we will just see about that!

[Pierre de Fermat]

5. Would powerful people cheat to retain power?

It depends on being charismatic enought to convince a few hundred to a few thousand people (both democrats and republican) to play along.

[pgh_dem]

10. not that i'm stalking you

but you just keep showing up in threads asserting this 'conspiracy too large' line, when most are discussing how few people would have to be involved in cheating.
What basis do you have for believing that thousands of people would have to knowingly be involved in a conspiracy to commit election fraud?

[BrotherBuzz]

26. Me thinks the assertion is right out of Blackwell's playbook

;)

[berniew1]

43. The vote machine fraud has been well documented! They're in trouble.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x181715


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=176637&mesg_id=176637

[The_Mule]

12. Hundreds to thousands?

Can you back up your argument that election fraud would take hundreds to thousands of both democrats and republicans?

There have been numerous arguments on this board that suggest otherwise.

[newyawker99]

24. Hi The_Mule!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[The_Mule]

28. Thank you, newyawker

I used to post here under the name Protect The Vote, but I wanted a change of name since voting rights is not the only issue I care about.

[roseBudd]

31. Actually it takes only 1 programmer...

and the dems and repugs would never know because there is nothing to see. And the few lines of code it would take that could be triggered by an event or a time would not be revealed by pre and post election testing. Computer illiterates have a tendency to not realize that fact.

[ohioliberal]

2. All I have to say to this

Is they can all eat shit and die!

[Pacifist Patriot]

4. Would it be too judgmental of me to state that the anonymous

author of this opinion piece presents him/herself as a complete moron and an insulting ass? If you don't believe the theories, you can certainly say so without coming across as a total jerk.

[roseBudd]

32. and undoubtedly a computer illiterate...

[KarenS]

6. fine,,,,

So now I am a godless Liberal in the lunatic fringe :)

ok,,,, I can take that !!!

Idiots.

on edit: I suspect they will not be allowing my response to show at the bottom of the page :) I basically told them that I know exactly where they Stick that punchcard stylus!!!

[SueZhope]

7. Perhaps that anonymous author is related to Blackwell

or is him.....

[Mister Ed]

8. Gonna take a lot more than a huffy op-ed piece to kill this story nt

[Pacifist Patriot]

9. I sent them this response...

Is The Mourning Journal in the habit of printing Opinion pieces that are ridiculously insulting? The election conspiracy piece of December 19 is not only inaccurate, but grossly sarcastic and disparaging. The anonymous author states, "These allegations have been out there for a long time, and they've been checked into and discredited." Does this mean he or she considers a month to be a long time? And exactly who has investigated and discredited the claims? I've yet to see a competent mainstream media reporter put the slightest bit of effort into presenting a balanced and factual accounting of any vote suppression or vote manipulation investigations. In fact, the silence has been deafening. The ridicule found in your opinion piece only fans the flames of suspicion. Those of us concerned with the efficacy and fairness of our voting system are far from being either mentally deranged or disgruntled Kerry supporters. We are people on both sides of the aisle who recognize that a single vote lost, miscounted, duplicated or suppressed means we cease to function as a representative republic. Shame on you for making a mockery of the need for transparency in democracy.

[zann725]

11. Oh good! That means they've something to hide!

As Gandhi said, "First they laugh at you....then you win!"

Sorry, we are NOT going away!

[KansDem]

13. "Bush won. Kerry lost" is NOT the issue. What we want to know is...

"how"

Once we know that, then we will discuss "Bush won. Kerry lost."

[nicho]

30. its quite simple

Bush obtained the majority of electoral college votes nationwide.

as to Ohio specifically, Bush won the popular vote.

I really wonder sometimes if the reason for this recount quest is really "to see how" rather than trying to reverse the election outcome.

Minnesota, Wisconsin, New Mexico, and Iowa all had closer elections than Ohio. where are the calls for recounts in those states?

[KansDem]

36. Well, election fraud occurred in 2000, 2004 and perhaps 2002

Do you really want election fraud to occur again in 2008 and 2006?

Although a recount is welcomed, I don't think it's enough as recounts might only duplicate the fraudulent election results.

However, since proof has emerged in OH and FL, let's recount those states...but, as long as we're on the topic, I'd rather see an investigation into illegal activities in OH since investigators with greater talent and insight than I have targeted this state for investigation...

So you see, it really isn't quite as simple as you might like it to be...

[Dancing_Dave]

55. Wow, I actually find another person in Kansas I agree with

People to smart to believe Bush's lies can get mighty lonesome here!:yourock:

[KansDem]

59. Yeah, being "blue" in a "red" state...

...can get gloomy at times, but at least we were able to re-elect Dennis Moore (D-3rd district) to a fourth term, so there are some bright spots!

During the campaign, I met many Kansas Republicans who announced they were voting for John Kerry. They simply could not tolerate the extremist policies of BushCo. That's another reason I find Election2004 so suspect...

[steelyboo]

56. Here, tell you what, if you can answer this question truthfully, and still

question whether we are full of shit, then I personally will shut up about this grand theft politico. (its lengthy, I hope you were good at those big ole essays in college.)

In America, we devote too much our time, energy, and resources to the church of Celebrity. We are constantly inundated with who's sleeping with who, who is going into rehab, etc. If you are not all wrapped up in that particular distraction, perhaps you like sports, we have a ton of those too, and the players are also part-time soap-opera actors, or at least they try to live their lives as such. Then there are the "fringe issues", i.e. the shit politicians make up to stir the shitstorm so they may be elected (and this goes both ways). You got a literal splintercast of ideas here that can be used to distract you. Ok, maybe you are too smart to be led astray, and you watch the local, national, and you even catch CNN "when real news happens". Thats great, Scooter. Problem is, the "news" hasn't been the "news" since, oh, bout 1988 (some will, like me, say when Cronkite left, but I think we can all agree that the dismissal of the Fairness Doctorine by Reagan was the death knell).

Now, considering the facts above, all these distractions that keep people from paying attention, not even to mention the testicular fortitude of the current man behind the curtian, do you honestly think that fraud is really that impossible to have occurred?

[pleiku52cab]

14. I admit I'm a hermit

but just where in the hell is Lorain

[Degeezer]

16. Help me understand this......

Do you guys actually beleive that Bush stole this election from Kerry and with all the legal representation that he has, they could, or would, do nothing about it?

[George W. Hayduke]

27. the answer is yes,

and patience is a virtue...

[roseBudd]

33. The source code that tabulates the votes is a product of the

companies who sell their services to the counties. The source code is a secret product that belongs to the comapnies. Kind of like the recipe for KFC. Lawyers cannnot make the companies reveal the literally thousands of lines of source code.

[MarkusQ]

37. Yes. I also suspect that Kerry stole the primary from Dean.

To be precise, I believe that these elections were rigged, by a combination of new tech wizardry and old school thuggery, but have no idea if the candidates themselves knew about it. There are many cases of people winning rigged beauty pageants or game shows without knowing that they were rigged; likewise, there are several cases of people winning rigged national elections (e.g. Tammany Hall) who apparently did not know that that there had been chicanery on their behalf (or at least, to what extent).

--MarkusQ

[bobbieinok]

46. where have YOU been this past month??? this has been discussed

back and forth, up and down, pro and con, ad nauseum and ad infinitum here at DU

no one has time to go back over all the arguments 'just for you'

[Igel]

44. The Morning Journal, 1657 Broadway, Lorain, Ohio 44052 ... n/t

[EC]

15. This just makes me believe

there is alot that wasn't hidden too well, and they are getting afraid...otherwise, why the disimformation campaigne? Instead of real news, we are being hit with the smears, just like any other real thing they want to hide... discredit, discredit, discredit, discredit, discredit, discredit, discredit, discredit, mantra....

[Kellis]

17. bingo!

Thats exactly what I was going to say :)

[driver8]

20. that is exactly right!

These guys never present an argument or counter point. Their way of winning an argument is to discredit the other side until they give up and go away.

I hate these guys more and more everyday...

[Pacifist Patriot]

41. The truly scary part is that many times the tactic works.

[AnarchoFreeThinker]

18. "Another wastes of time: VOTING"

(Don't bother. Democracy's all in your head.)

[lessthanjake]

19. Sorry to say it but

These guys are right. Bush won. Kerry lost. More people voted for bush. Sure there was the normal republican voter intimidation but beyond that there probably was no cheating. ANd if there was we will never get enough evidence to prove it therefore making this futile.

[AnarchoFreeThinker]

21. Fraudlulatin' is hard.

Covering it up is even harder. More comes out each week. Sure, * might be king, but he's gonna get tainted.

(edited for word choice)

[EC]

22. Doesn't make it futile

If enough attention can be brought to it, to clean up the whole system. Do you like living in a country where it doesn't make a difference who you vote for? Is your time and thought into your vote not worth counting? It makes me feel like I'm living in a third world country where everything is an allusion, so why waste my time even voting or thinking about who will run my life? You think that the ruler of the country has nothing to do with how your life will be lived? Or your children's? Doesn't it concern you in the least that our kids may have hell to live through for something being done now?

The vote is where we make our choices, these choices should be REAL, not just a placating exercise.

[suston96]

25. Sorry to say it but..

Bush did win because he stole it and covered his tracks.

Unfortunately, the mammoth electoral process has so many holes that stealing an election with massive fraud gets easier and easier the more technological the process becomes.

Just like it happened this time.

Not enough technicians in the election centers to watch the perpetrator technicians who actually did the deed.

The machines could have been fixed way back at the factory and been turned on when the "calibrating" techs appeared on site to "get them ready" for the election and then again, "to get them ready" for the recounts.

LMAO! Who the hell ever heard of anyone "recalibrating" election machines during, and after an election, and then again before recounts and audits?

Whatta a massive laughing stock we are becoming as we brazenly interlope in the Ukraine elections while we cannot avoid treachery and thievery of elections here at home.

Best thing we can do here? 62,000 DUers? Stay mad as hell! Don't take it any more! Fight it any way we can. Bloggerpower! Ask Dan Rather.

If that doesn't work, then get out those mattresses and get ready for the war.

[s-cubed]

29. Before the election *'s approval ratings rarely got over 50%,

and a poll released today shows him less than 50% (48% or 49%). You want me to believe that 52% of the people voted for him?

[MarkusQ]

38. I would love to see your evidence for this. (n/t)

[Pacifist Patriot]

40. Sorry, but at this point I think the burden of proof has shifted.

With all of the "little glitches" that have cropped up here, there and everywhere, someone is going to have to provide compelling evidence that Bush did indeed have more people show up at the polls with the intention to vote for him. Statistically it is enormously unlikely. His "win" simply counters too many predictable patterns to be credible. Now whether it was an orchestrated manipulation, innocent glitches or some combination of a variety of factors is anyone's guess.

I have to disagree with you with respect to futility as well. If the spotlight is bright enough and brings no evidence of irregularity to the surface than perhaps some day I'll have confidence that my vote is being counted properly. I'd say it's worth the effort.

[bobbieinok]

47. without trust in accurate counting of ALL the votes, democracy DIES

[SammyWinstonJack]

23. And if Kerry had "won" the way the Chimperor did,

ya know that this person would be screaming "election conspiracy" from the rooftop. Bush* didn't win and Kerry didn't lose.

[insane_cratic_gal]

34. 57,000 human mistakes

I might add. In OH alone or is that across the board?

40,000 complaints in OH alone.

It's fraud, dirty low tricks of KKK rove. Suppression of 480 cut precincts in heavy Democratic areas. 128 machines that sat in warehouse doing nothing. machine failure, denial of machines to precincts that had a huge turn out.

they knew it was going to be a huge turn out. If they didn't they had 30 days (closing day for election registration Oct. 4th) to figure out how to produce a fair election!

On that alone we know people were denied their right to vote!
we don't even need the vote-hack proof.

But we are going after it anyway, as we should be.

piss off is all I have to say that person.

[Vinca]

35. I'm verklempt!

That column of sheer baloney made me so mad I actually decided to respond. Sadly, I was so mad I was at a loss for words. What do you say to a complete idiot?

[sled]

39. The truth

Take your time, settle yourself, & hammer them with the facts.

When you get these guys, responding like this, you know you've hit paydirt. Just take your time, use all this good research, everybody's been providing...write it, like you'd say it, & write as reasoned, as possible. They want you to flame, right back, so it'll prove their point, that you're a reactionary.

Writing's not as hard, as you think. Everybody speaks in complete sentences, just let your fingers, do your talking, on the keyboard, & write, just like you talk.

Write a rough draft, proofread it, & make any changes, you think necessary, to make the point, & voila, you've got your letter.

Just relax, don't blast back, or you'll regret it. Take your time...there's no hurry to be first, better to be right. Cover your bases, so you don't leave holes, in your argument. It makes them, look like they're not reasoned.

[lonestarnot]

45. Lo Rain ... all soggy

[Straight Shooter]

54. "What do you say to a complete idiot?"

You say, "Hello, Mr. Bush."

[stepnw1f]

42. If it's Just A Theory...

Then ignore it. What's the big deal? Why all the negative posts concerning people's disdain for ELECTION FRAUD? It's interesting to see soooo many posts on DU dismissing ELECTION FRAUD. Why is that.


Lorain, you are living your life regardless of what others do.

[sled]

48. Absolutely

The majority thought the world was flat, too. Big deal...do what you believe is right, no matter what anybody says. It wasn't too very long ago, the majority thought there was WMDs, etc., you name it, but it still doesn't make it so. If everybody went with the majority, we'd still be bowing to King George...on second thought, the majority, supposedly, still is. Heavy on the "supposedly"...

Call it, like you see it, & let the chips fall where they may. If you're right, you'll win, if they're right, they'll win. "Democracy's messy..."...a la Rummy...only time he's ever been right.

[stepnw1f]

52. I feel Bad for the People Who Chose to Believe Bush Won

Thieves only win because Americans allow the theft. This election is already Null and Void without verification. There has been ample time make sure this wouldn't happen. Therefore there is motive to steal an election.

No wonder the world calls us lazy and stupid. We are in this mess because we are lazy and stupid. Instead of sucking it up, we have backed ourselves into our own worst nightmare.

[Carolab]

49. I think the one hallucinating

is this person thinking that they are a journalist.

[ginnyinWI]

50. "first they ignore you, then they laugh at you..." n/t

[roseBudd]

51. Here is what I wrote in response

Since no one has examined the source code of any of the companies that tabulate votes in Ohio I do believe it is premature for a media organization to pronounce that investigations indicate there was no fraud.

The programs used to tabulate votes may easily be changed to produce a fraudulent result by any competent programmer who has access. That's right tabulation fraud requires only a single programmer with access to the tabulation equipment. The tabulation fraud could even escape pre and post election testing by using a "switch" triggered by an unusual vote combination, a time-based trigger, a threshold of votes cast, or any combination of the above.

So you see all those computer illiterate democrats and republicans who serve on Board of Elections, when they stand around thinking they are watching something on election night are essentially watching nothing, because there is literally nothing to see when a computer program created by a programmer who works for a company that has a contract with that county to count the votes tabulates.

Oh that's right, that is why we have exit polls, to discourage fraud.

[sled]

53. Good one

Electronic gambling devices are a good example. Does anybody, in their right minds, think they can beat the house? You win as much, as they let you win...both parties should be in favor of throwing this junk out, & securing the vote...new, doesn't always mean better...

Why is voting, such a big secret, anyway? Are these guys, so pitiful, we're ashamed of who we vote for?

If they're so bad, you've got to hide it, maybe you should vote for someone else.

[rumpel]

57. These people, never use factual data to rebut, just name calling and

accusations...

[roseBudd]

58. Marilyn Jacobcik is the Bitch who is the elections supervisor in Lorain

Her comment on the Morning Journal:

How right you are. As Elections Director in Lorain County, I understand the right of Cobb & Badnarik (who received a combined 328 votes out of 143,000 cast) to request a recount. However, the Kerry campaign attempted to take over the process and tie things up for far longer than necessary. The unfortunate things are 1)many in the news media have bought into the hype and promoted trying to convince the general public that there was some conspiracy or attempt to rig the election; and 2) the taxpayers in Lorain County taxypayers paid the Board of Election people for several days to prepare for the recount instead of getting meaningful work from them as they prepare for a very large February special election in several communities and the 2005 local elections. Thank you for seeing the reality of the situation.

I could not find an emaal address or contact link for her office anywhere. She is responsible for Oberlin College having too few machines BTW.

[cap]

60. actually even if we dont win the recount

we have to start fighting back... each lost battle becomes a learning experience for the lessons that will provide the ultimate victory. The most important thing is not to lose heart.

The lessons we are learning right now are the hard ones:

1. The need for a watchdog media that can reach all citizens

2. The need for elections that pass international standards for fairness, especially in terms of auditability.

3. The need for an independent judiciary.

4. The need for courage on an individual level. Faith and Hope,too. The need to believe that a better world is truly possible. This will take a lot of "hard work" :) (Please don't flame me for quoting you-know-who on "hard work :)!!! ).