Do black people have as much right to vote as whites?

[Hamoth]

IT looks obsurd to ask this question, but I am simply calling a "spade" that which it is. In the question of election reform, we are continuing to ignore the fundamentally most obvious, clearly documented, and morally richeous asset we have in the battle. We are on the side against allowing "seperate but equal" voting standards in this nation to continue. We have won the right of black's to shop, but not to vote in equal force. It is an indisputable fact that black precincts under represent the will of the neighborhoods they serve and that this is done through governmental policy such as undertaffing, undertraining, underfunding, underloving their black constituants.

A black person is no longer 1/3rd of a person. Now about 3/4 of a person. We call that progress?!

When the issue of the seriousness of voting reform is raised, it's time we asked the talking heads and persons of punditry to establish where they stand in the fight for civil rights against an archaic voting standard that is nothiing more than a relic of Jim Crowe's legacy.

When a person asks if we are to be taken seriously, they are actualy asking if blacks really should be given equal access to the vote. They are asking if a black vote is as important as a white vote. IF beverly hills had a 10 hour wait, I am quite certain we would be hearing about on the news nightly.

[MemphisTiger]

1. I may be uninformed but I think your argument is a

bit of a stretch. In my town, blacks almost control all local government. If you are speaking of your section of the country, you may be right, but I don't think you can make that blanket statement about the whole country.

[Hamoth]

4. Well that's the problem.

The legacy of racism has grown so familiar again that most people don't catch it unless they are black.

Black people are equally capable of upholding a racially inquitable policy dictated by white supremecist motives as are people of any race. That should not cloud the fact that we can clearly see that constraining mostly black voters to a specific shoddy building to vote in 7 hour lines without ability to go to the nicer white precincts where everything is running smothly, ammounts to a "blacks only" / "whites only" policy. The major difference is that given the defacto nature of modern segregation, this can be implimented without having to overtly show a motive. Unwitting so many people are carying out policies of origins they often are clueless about.

Still, saying "blacks do it too" doesn't negate the problem of supressing black precincts.

Ask any urban black person if they feel this is a problem nation wide.

Also, nobody said that objecting to the segregation of the south was anything less than a national problem in the 60's. Well, correction, there were some who said that...mostly southern governors.

[MemphisTiger]

10. I never said "blacks do it to"

What I meant was that I don't think blacks in Memphis, and urban area, are that disenfranchised. I vote at the same place they do, the lines aren't too bad. I personally haven't seen anyone disenfranchised or heard about it, and I try to keep my ears open for that sort of thing.

[Chili]

13. then why...

...were all the broken inoperable punchcard machines in Cuyahoga County - with the exception of 1 precinct - in the poorest, predominantly black neighborhoods?

http://shadowbox.i8.com/Suppression/ohio/ohiomachines.htm

And what about Franklin County? How could this happen in TWO counties? With TWO different kinds of voting machines?

And I won't even mention Florida.

Just because YOU don't see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The tree DID fall in the forest.

[Hamoth]

19. Really? Hit the streets in memphis and ask around...

I know some of this was going on in Little Rock, not 4 hours away.

[roseBudd]

29. TN was not in play, the GOP did not have to suppress in TN like they

did in OH

[Hamoth]

41. Also, I suspect that given the history of the Memphis area

That we would not be hard pressed to find such data should our people look into it. We have better ohio data, becuase as it was said "ohio was in play" so to speak. The cynic in me reads this as: "The memphis blacks haven't really been looked at as closely. We didn't need them as much."

The swing state mentality is naturally an aknowlegement of simultaneous political reality and exclusionary prejudice.

[RaleighNCDUer]

44. There was vote suppression in 'safe' districts, and states,

to help boost * and give him that popular vote mandate that he now claims. People just aren't looking for is as hard there.

[roseBudd]

53. I am sure there is, witness the GOP comment, unless we suppress Detroit

we have a problem in Michigan.

Also native American suppression in western states.

[Karenina]

84. LOVED the pens given to Native Americans

containing ink the Opti-Scans wouldn't read...

[Hamoth]

91. Identical to the invisible ink pen ploy

used in the Ukraine

[roseBudd]

31. Unless you live in a black majority state (you don't) then the GOP

does not have to worry about black majority cities causing the state to go blue, like they do with Detroit (the GOP's Michigan problem).

As long as the GOP uses the Southern strategy created by Nixon and perfected by Reagan and white racists vote GOP, then the GOP need not worry about suppressing their minority vote.

[Hamoth]

42. That's not true.

Arkansas and tennessee have huge streaks of blue that could have been fortified. Arkansas could have swung either way.

[Name removed]

115. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bluzmann57]

2. Every American has as much right as every other American to vote

At least thats the way its supposed to be. Under this regime we seem to have gone in reverse however. Just another reason why they must go.

[joeunderdog]

111. Bush to African Americans: "You're black. Get over it." n/t

[saracat]

3. Many whites did have long waits.

I don't dispute that Blacks were misproportionately dienfranchised, but in this election we were all dienfranchised !

[Hamoth]

5. The case is most clear about the racial nature though.

And while universities are also targeted (the whites I think you are mentioning?) the numbers dwarf in comparison to what they are doing, have been doing, for quite some time against black people in this countyr. SOmething on the order of...well forever...as I recall.

Sure we have made some headway, but it's indisputable that blacks are being discriminated against. Mee tooism isn't going to negate the fact that blacks were targeted.

[saracat]

7. I wasn't thinking ofc the universites. I was thinking of the labor areas

of Ohio! And the elderly Jewish vote in Florida. A womn died in line!

[Hamoth]

16. I had not heard about that...

link?

[Chili]

30. it IS terrible how the elderly were treated...

...that's why not addressing black suppression endangers everybody all the more. You allow one kind of suppression to flourish by ignoring it, and diminish the urgency of fixing the racial targeting, then it makes it easier, and more acceptable, to do it everybody.

[roseBudd]

8. Whites did not receive letters on official but stolen letterheads

telling them to vote on Nov. 3.

[Chili]

25. they also didn't have hostile Republican challengers...

...crawling all over them either, watching their every move, demanding identification and proof of address.

[roseBudd]

28. The 3,500 GOP challengers in Ohio (each paid $100) were stationed in

minority democratic precincts.

[Chili]

62. I know

...that's what I meant - I was agreeing with you.

[Chili]

9. the very fact that you're arguing the point...

...means that it's acceptable to allow the practice to continue, status quo.

[Hamoth]

11. I suspect you missed my point.

It was that the national media is arguing this point...but we haven't called it for what it is. I jsut rephrased hte question to expose thier nature.

[Chili]

15. Hamoth...

I wasn't talking to you, I was talking to Saracat, who, instead of addressing what you said, instead deflected the subject to whites having to stand in line too.

[Hamoth]

18. Ah, sory. Gotcha. -NT

[saracat]

49. Nonsense. It is not acceptable, but because it effects "everyone" maybe

just maybe ,someone will do something.I can't see how you apparently leaped to the conclusion that I thought it was okay to let the practice continue. If it is fixed, it is fixed for everyone. And it MUST BE FIXED.

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[roseBudd]

23. Whites who live in black neighborhoods tend to vote democratic, most

blacks did not vote for Bush whether or not they voted to ban gay marriage. It is white flight suburbanite counties that went for Bush.

It was the suburbs where there was no wait.

[tkmorris]

38. Would your handle mean Palm Beach County FL?

If so then the blacks in your area did most certainly not vote Republican Ma'am. Pam Beach County FL was overwhelmingly blue, and among Blacks the margin was even larger.

[RaulVB]

22. Not as many as in black OHIO neigbourhoods (n/t)

[berniew1]

104. Its clear minorities were systematically suppressed as a strategy

Blacks and liberal students in Ohio and Florida
http://northnet.org/minstrel/columbus.htm
http://votersunite.org

and Indians and poor hispanics in New Mexico
http://www.helpamericarecount.org/NewMexicoData/NewMexicoGeneralElection.pdf

[Mabeline]

6. Then could the question be ask about women?

Of course, every citizen over 18 who is registered has as much of a right to vote as me or you.

To me it is more an issue that they actually want, have the desire, to vote. If it is found that they don't even want to, then that issue needs to be addressed.

[Hamoth]

14. Tthat's right...

10 hour lines filled with blacks who didn't really want to vote is the problem.

Many people have jobs, and many can be fired for even leaving to go vote in the first place. And good luck getting a lawyer if it happens. They will jsut say it's for something unrelated ("No, this person had a bad attitude and its not related to their going to vote at all! Why all my firends are negros!") Happens all the damn time.

The fact is that we have data showing the reduction in turnout in areas of similar ethnic nad economic makeup with differing voting standards that show clearly how these methods and others, targeting blacks in droves, have reduced the eficacy of the black vote and turnout of voters in black precincts.

People are scared to call this what it is...becuase htey don't want another unstable period of inflamed racial division. This is a lot like the MSM who doesn't cover the reality of hte fraud becuase they don't want another a 2000 florida. The facts are as they are. Not paying attention doesn't make it any less so.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Chili]

thank you for saying the obvious...

...in Ohio, people waited as long as they could. We'll never know how many just couldn't wait any longer before leaving the lines.

[proudbluestater]

12. There's a letter to email about that issue at congress.org

If you follow the link, you can email your reps. with a single click. You are asking them to stand up and take action now, before the electors cast their votes. http://www.congress.org/congressorg/issues/alert/?alertid=6763491&content_dir=ua_congressorg


Ask Members of the Senate and House to Declare Their Intent to Object to Tainted Electors on January 6th, 2005
Urge members of Congress to put election officials on notice BEFORE January 6th, 2005. Visit ** http://thedeanpeople.org ** for details

Are hours-long poll-tax-lines for poor, minority voters AND none for affluent, white voters a tolerable condition for you? Will you uphold the objection to electors from a state where this is the documented reality, or become complicit with the perpetrators of this condition?

I am writing to ask you to take action TODAY.

Put election officials on notice by declaring your intent to object to tainted Presidential electors. Join with other members of the Senate and House and publicly endorse the following “Declaration of Intent” or make an equivalent public statement.

Speak out NOW to give election officials time to take the steps necessary to assure us that their election truly reflects the will of the citizens of their state BEFORE January 6th.

----------------------------
Declaration of Intent
----------------------------

As a Member of Congress it is my sworn duty to uphold and defend the US Constitution. Being mindful of that oath, I believe that the single moral tenet on which that document, and therefore the nation, rests is the principle that government power can only be derived from the consent of the governed.

Consequently, the right of the People to have confidence that they are being afforded free and fair elections for their government officials is a right that no other consideration can supersede. A free and fair election is one in which all citizens have been afforded equal access and opportunity to cast their vote and have that vote accurately counted.

I choose to make this declaration at this time because it has now become clear to me that several states have, to this point in time, failed to fully provide for what would generally be regarded as a free and fair election for their citizens. And consequently, they have generated an insufficient level of confidence in their official result.

There can be no arbitrary point in time -- whether it be a date scheduled for appointing electors, electoral voting, or electoral vote counting -- that can limit the right of the People to have their consent justly measured and expressed. An election is a survey not a contest.

With these principles in mind I would urge the duly authorized election officials in each and every state to make every effort -- whether it be ballot recounting, independent auditing, reopening voting, or even judicially-sanctioned statistical adjustment of results -- to assure that their election truly reflects the will of the citizens of their state.

I wish to recognize that efforts are ongoing in some states -- by candidates, election officials, the news media, and citizens groups, through recounts and other means -- to clarify and adjust the official results in order to increase the level of public confidence. These efforts are necessary, however, they cannot be sufficient.

This is true because by far the most disturbing circumstances that have occurred in this election are the confirmed cases of disparate treatment being afforded to certain classes of voters. If systemic barriers to exercising the franchise existed that correlate to a citizen's age, race, religion, gender, socio-economic status, military status, partisan status, absentee status, immigration status, or other identifiable characteristic, the election was neither free and fair, nor lawful in the absence of any corrective remedy being applied.

Therefore, in keeping with my oath of office, I publicly declare my intention to act on January 6th 2005 and object to any presidential electors that I believe to have been unlawfully appointed. To do less would make me complicit with a violation of our shared democratic principles.

[understandinglife]

32. Done. Forwarding to others. Thank you (n/t)

[Straight Shooter]

17. The majority of people of color are Democrats

They believe in the principles of the Democratic party. The Republicans are merely seeking the soft targets to intimidate and suppress, those with the least power, the socially and culturally disenfranchised.

That being said, it is racism, because Democratic principles insist on equality in society. The Republicans hate that, because it goes against their idea of a superior white race. Didn't the KKK start in the Democratic party and then migrate to the Repub party when the Dems no longer supported their cause?

My apologies to offending equality-minded Republicans.

[Hamoth]

20. you make a good point.

then we need more democrats standing with them, don't we?

[kk897]

55. EXACTLY, which makes Kerry's AWOL act so hard to take

I swear, I keep about to burst into tears when I think about the first-time voters, elderly Black people, young white single mothers, these people waiting hours in the rain, people coming out of the hospital on an IV for god's sake, people who may have taken Kerry's "help is on the way" literally. They placed a LOT of trust in that man. After 2000, it must've been very hard to trust, but at least it seemed like Gore didn't just roll over.

Kerry's inactivity will only cement distrust in the system... which, in the end, although undoubtedly hurtful, may be for the best. We shouldn't trust the system. We've got to rebuild the system from the ground up.

[Chili]

59. that is exactly my fear

...and how will they believe US, the people doing the phone-banking and door-knocking, the next time we call them on the phone, and promise them change, and that their vote will count, and that participating in the election is the most important thing we can do?

It will feel like a lie.

[Hamoth]

64. Unless we stop talking TO them

And being letting them do the talking. It's time to welcome our bretheren into the fold and make it a new civil rights era.

[Chili]

74. I AM a brethern

(...okay, a Sistern, LOL) and I went around and around and around with a family member who is totally disillusioned. I said everything I could, and I couldn't sway her to have faith in the party, or in the voters, or in the rank-and-file Dems that DO care... the answer was "it is what it is," and that is, the party and the rest of America turning it's back. Once again.

[Hamoth]

76. Ask her if she would march again.

Time to go freedom riders on this mess, if you ask me.

[roseBudd]

108. I personally was disapointed that the black turnout at the Dec. 4 Columbus

Ohio rally was not better attended by African Americans. I was hoping that Jesse Jackson's support and the participation of preachers would have helped. Of course it was extremely windy and cold and I did hear that there were buses with people on them that we did not see. The indoor program that happened later that day indoors at the Afrocentric Center may have had better African American participation.

I did ask a local civil rights figure (Cincinnati: Carl Westmoreland) whether retired Judge Nathaniel Jones could influence Ken Blackwell. He said that today's generation of African Americans needed to care and to step up. In other words Rev. Shuttleworth, Carl Westmoreland, Judge Jones, etc. are all old, they did their part. Now it's the younger generation's turn.

[kk897]

116. Hey Rosebud---you were there? me too!

(I'm not Black,by the way, as if you didn't already know, duh).

[roseBudd]

117. Yes, myself another DUer who I hooked up with on here, KaliTracy

and a friend of hers that was driving went up together from Cincinnati. I was passing out Ken Blackwell RECUSE face pic flyers with BIASED stamped on his forehead in stencil font. You can download my flyers for protest signs at http://somnamblst.tripod.com

[kk897]

120. Oh, my hubby got one of those...nice work! n/t

[roseBudd]

109. Actually because elections are run by the state and the counties there

is very little influence or control from a national perspective that Kerry could have had. The court cases in Ohio with Blackwell were I'm sure argued by our side, but when it came down to it, the judges sided with Blackwell.

[Straight Shooter]

57. Democrats need to stand together on ALL issues

That being said, I find the assault on minority rights to be most egregious. It feels like we're sliding backward in time, back to the '50s, of certain people "knowing their place."

I don't care how "chummy" george bush is with Ms. Rice. If he reaps the fruit of a racist tree, then he is racist, too.

This is the one issue that can get me mad as a hornet in a nanosecond. Suppression and intimidation of those who have less power are unethical, immoral, un-American and downright un-Christian practices.

This entire election is one cauldron of social ills. Talk about poisonous soup.

[mgr]

24. Equal access criterion/Civil Rights

The point I believe you are trying to get at is not whether individuals can be discriminated against, but can communities or neighborhoods. This is what drives environmental justice. I assume that the standard would be whether a community of whites were treated the same, or not. So, in the case of Cuyahoga County Ohio, look to the predominantly African American precincts, and the then compare to the predominantly white precincts, and see if there is a difference in the number of voting machines to registered voters. One may apply this to any other minority group, with the possible exception of women.

Mike

[roseBudd]

26. There was, the research has been done.

[Hamoth]

36. Yeah, this is really clearly documented

not just anecdotal stuff here. We have pretty hard data showing exactly how messed up it was. Anyone here have that link?





Here's jsut two easy to follow charts demonstrating how clear this is.

[mgr]

45. Sorry, not quite

What you have is good start, but the complaints are for the most part qualitative, not quantitative (anecdotal, what constitutes a long wait for an individual varies), show pattern (a good thing but not clinching), but not discrimination. They occur in precincts supporting Bush as well as Kerry. The quantity of machines through the day will make the argument that will get you where you need to go legally.

The internets can only get you so far, this is where the leg work comes in, and the computer is shut off. So says the geographer in California (and if I was in Ohio, I would probably do as I am saying).

Mike

[Hamoth]

46. I assure you the data was quantitative and not anecdotal.

this is not "internets" data. This is from official sources to my understanding.

[mgr]

47. I know, but...

Don't get me wrong I definitely do not consider these maps GIGO, but I had reviewed the record of complaints some time ago.

What constitutes anecdotal is an individual account of a phenomena that may be subject to different interpretations based upon one's viewpoint. Waiting in line is just that. Of course if all voters agree that they waited in line for an unconscionable period of time, that is a different matter. However, you would have to prove that with affidavits.

The number of machines gets at a qualitative basis, by which one may compare precincts that is not subjective. If it takes five minutes to get through the 100 or so ballot choices, and you have only three machines, the number of voters accessible to the machines can be quantified, and compared to the number of registered voters, and to the poll book.

As another point, I do not recall any complaints that the lines were so long that someone did not vote. All that I have seen is second hand accounts.

Again we are pressed against the fact that information now has to be gotten in the field, and it may take a different type of researcher/volunteer/grunt than members of DU. If this were California I'd be your foot soldier, but its not.

Mike

[Hamoth]

48. There are many places to obtain this data

I think that you read through the reports of the voting problems hotline, which I agree are totally useless as a data source. That's not what we are looking at here on these charts. I believe that the graphs are the reports by the election workers of what the longest line waits were. That's not anecdotal. The subjective quality you ascribe to it is not present as the line waits were not reported as "long" but in specific hours. That's quantitative.

The threshold for problems on the map I presented here were 2.5 hour or longer waits, I believe.

If not for this specific chart, I have seen others with remarkably similar plots that were so determined. I have a devil of a time tracking down all the best data sources and research though.

[mgr]

54. Voteprotect.org has filters, and was source.

This is where I remember looking. Over 1,300 incidents reported. 141 reported incidents of long lines, combined with machine problems. The map probably does not do this justice, as it was raining that day

Why is it that 2 1/2 hours is a long time, but not one hour in the rain? Why only show ten or fifteen rather than the total 140? I suspect the answer is using the mapping function gets a little tedious, and the 2 1/2 hour criterion showed what the cartographer thought would clinch an argument.

The information also explains something I had questions about with the data points not being centered in the precincts, since they represent the polling locations.

The question, I will put to you, in a court, arguing that access to voting was denied to African Americans compared to whites, would this map suffice? Preaching to the choir is easy, but testifying in front of God is something else.

By the way, please refer to minorities by their ethnic name. Racial titles need to cease, as the pseudo-scientific thinking behind the concept of race has been debunked (and led to that ugly little thing known as the holocaust), and from a genetic standpoint, an African American is likely to have more European genes than African.

We all struggle with it but it probably needs to stop.

[Hamoth]

83. I TOLD you

Those were only two maps from an enormous volume of data that's out there. I do not have hte links and have a devil of a time finding them.

We have shown that as lines reported grew longer, turnout was reduced. The lines are not the only things. We also have comparisons between black areas that were not targeted and those that were. The difference in turnout is substantial.

The list of things they did is long.

[me b zola]

50. And the Civil Rights Movement?

Did Rev.King wait for quantitative proof before he demanded justice? The difference is that what had been done openly is now done with only the thinnest of veils.
This was the tone I took with my Senator from Oregon because it is the bedrock of the Democratic party, and to fail to take it seriously is to say that the party is no longer relevant.

[mgr]

58. What we are demanding differs from what King demanded.

Spare me the rhetoric.

ML King demanded justice from the US government that finally passed the Civil Rights Act of 1964 by the legislative branch. It took decades, and sufficient blood to get there. And it still was not enough.

We are now asking for a potential constitutional crisis to be initiated by the judicial branch as redress to a putative civil rights violation after a month since the infraction. What I am saying is the evidence posed here is insufficient to address the legal merits of such a request, and trying to point out how it may be made stronger. Consider the effect of a temporary restraining order on the selection of the electoral college, or in leading to various indictments or an impeachment. If you weren't around for Nixon, you have no idea (and no the articles of impeachment for Clinton does not even rise to occasion, don't fool yourself)what a fucking nightmare those thirteen months were like. The country was inches away from a Coup d' Etat.

The shame of the Democratic Party and Democrats is that we have not in the past been willing to redress or even cognizant of the wrongs done the African American community until it appears to cost us our national standing. At least, for my part, I played a small role in the environmental justice movement in the 1980's, but I would not say that is enough to exonerate myself.

[Hamoth]

75. That's not what I'm demanding.

>We are now asking for a potential constitutional crisis to be initiated by the judicial branch as redress to a putative civil rights violation after a month since the infraction.

Not I. How about a civil rights initiative to FORESTALL a contitutional crisis by granting a universal right to vote for american citizens? By making it a constitutional right, we can head off voter fraud with federal resources and AVOID a crisis.

How about election day as a naitonal holiday? We can call it "freedom day". It will let the poor and overworked vote. It will also give the government better pool of volunteers and probably help out with teh "mistakes" that seem to abound with poll workers.

How about a universal federal election standard?

These are things I am seeking. I want the right to vote, and I want it universally applied to all my fellow Americans. I want to be able to trust and verify this vote. I want verification to be possible at low / no cost for anyone who wants to know how each and every vote was recorded and where it was cast (but not who cast it).

I want technology that is within the grasp of the electorate to be the only technology used in elections. Anything else reduces the important understanding of fraud issues to hte pronouncments of hte media and partisan "experts" (edit) can not be trusted. If the people can not understand hte mechanism of the election, they should not trust the outcome.

[Chili]

78. hear hear

I second everything you say.

REFORM. Standards.

That's what we want. That's what we desperately need.

[me b zola]

101. Rhetoric?

The civil rights(of many voters, but particularly black voters) is indeed reminiscent of the 1960' struggle for civil rights. This is why the CBC is so strenuously fighting for FULL investigations into what happened. This is why, I presume, that Rev.Jackson is so closely involved and said, "there is a straight line from Selma to Ohio".
So far the Democratic Senators whom have not spoken up, have not felt the need to risk political credibility on what has been spun as conspiratorial. If they only become involved because widespread civil rights violations will not be tolerated by their constituents, then so be it. But how can they support Rep. Conyers and the CBC without being drawn into the facts in this issue that they will find it hard to deny all point to major fraud?. Once they walk through the door don't you think they will have to begin wondering about THEIR political future if elections can so easily be stolen? Won't they then begin talking behind closed doors to other Dems about what this means to the party, and the nation's, future??
As I see it, is the logical first step to get these guys/gals off their *sses and take up the cause, leading, hopefully, to the impeachment and subsequent prison sentences for the guilty. THEY ALL HAVE A DOG IN THIS FIGHT, AND WE MUST FIND A WAY TO MAKE THEM SEE THIS.

[mgr]

106. I think we agree then. N/T

[Chili]

66. sorry, but I disagree

The majority of the blue dots represent areas that went for Kerry over 90%. The lone blue dot to the south - that's Parma - went for Kerry. The others, towards the west, are blue collar areas - also Kerry precincts. The dots along Lake Erie, right in the center - is Lakewood - very heavy Kerry area.

Not a single one of those blue dots is a Bush precincts.

[mgr]

69. I was referring to the second map, first does not apply to issue. n/t

[tjdee]

33. It's not apostrophe s!! UGH!!

"We have won the right of black's to shop.."

Plural does not require apostrophe.

Yes, this is a very, very silly observation, and yes, this is a minor, minor point.
:silly:

I agree with most of your post though--I would say though, that the black people in Beverly Hills voted easily, so I'm wondering if the problem is not experienced by all lower income people (of which many are blacks).

[Hamoth]

34. Berverly hills is not considered a "black" location

So of course it wasnt targeted.

Any chance I can jusitfy the punctuation as being a possesive?

Also, why stop there: "The rights of blacks to shop." or "The right of black's to shop." But then maybe that should have been "Blacks'", but should I be saying blacks at all? :nuke:

I rarely spell or gramar check on the web...Bad form online?

[liam97]

35. How about posing this question to

Oprah, Cosby, Toni Morrison and Maya Angelou and ask them how they can be so quiet on this issue?

[Hamoth]

37. Cosby? ER..."Put down the 40 and talk right" Cosby? -NT

[liam97]

39. actually so is Oprah

so we should ask even more

[regularjoe]

40. The first chapter of Bev's book talks about this...

A conversation between Bev and her husband, Sonny.

"'But look what they are doing!' I said. 'These are violations of their right to vote!'
'Oh, they've always done that,' he said quietly. 'You just notice it because now they're playing games with the white folks, too. How's it feel?'"

from pages 2 and 3 "Black Box Voting"

[Hamoth]

43. You bet. That's exactly how I see it.

We always see them go after blacks first and foremost with some bleed over from the institutionlized nature of it into other communicties. when it bleeds over to a certain ammount, THEN people these days seem to care.

It's friggin' insane. But most people jsut don't know what black people in America still face every day. They think the civil rights era began an ended in the days of black and white tv. It's taught in history books like a fate accompli. But the tragic reality is that the momentuim just died down becasue the shot some of the best leaders in the struggle.

[kk897]

52. I knew before the election that it was yet another horrible civil rights

fiasco. The NAACP knew, too. I clipped this before I figured out how to store links in my NoteTaker application, but here's a Yahoo! News article from Oct. 14:


NAACP Leader Concerned About Election Day Process

Election Day is less than three weeks away, and one local leader is concerned about the confusion that could arise with the large number of voters expected to cast their ballots, reported NewsChannel5.

The Cuyahoga County Board of Elections has already processed more than 340,000 registration cards, three times the number in 2000.

Cleveland leader of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, George Forbes, said he has many concerns about Election Day, the first one being the number of poll machines.

He says there is supposed to be a machine for every 200 voters, and that the supply could be inadequate.

But board of elections director Michael Vu said there is sufficient supply.

“We have currently 9,000 ... compared proportionately, one for every 110 voters ... so we have efficient number of supplies,” said Vu.

The article goes on to say that about 10K flawed registrations from mainly Black neighborhoods would probably be thrown out...and that NAACP was considering filing a federal lawsuit. They even sent out letters to recent registrants asking them if they correctly filled out the registrations.

Now, how were the voting machines actually distributed? And how many registrations were thrown out? And how many ballots were "spoiled" because the rickety old machines didn't punch right or read the punches right or bent a corner here and there?

I can't believe that, after reading the work of Greg Palast anyone would have any doubt that it's a civil rights issue! I mean, really, I knew about this stuff way before this year... and DUers are smart and have read Palast... I mean, the bbv stuff is important, too, but look at the big picture, people.

[Chimpanzee]

51. Disagree completely!

Black people are 100% people. It's those that would institutionally discriminate against them that are sub-human.

[Hamoth]

61. And how does that disagree with anything I said? -NT

[Chimpanzee]

102. You said:

"A black person is no longer 1/3rd of a person. Now about 3/4 of a person. We call that progress?!"

[Pacifist Patriot]

112. I believe you two *are* saying the same thing.

It's clear the OP is disagreeing with the way in which African Americans who should be considered equal are not. The OP was in no way stating that African Americans are 75% human and in fact was plainly stating that continuing to allow ANY disequality is NOT progress.

[Hamoth]

123. That is correct.

I was stating the de facto legal standing of black persons in this election, not their actual worth as people. It's a reference to some old laws where blacks were given an actual legal status as being 1/3rd of a person. I am then contrasting that to the legal implications of the current situation and showing that we haven't come so far as we might like to think.

[AmerDem]

56. This is no way to start a thread!

The very title suggests controversy and someone crying out for attention or at a minimum someone looking to hurt and divide. I'll pass on any collective thought on this subject because I feel it's complete bullshit to start with.

[Hamoth]

60. Might help if you read the post before jumping to conclusions. -NT

[AmerDem]

63. I read it champ

Don't need to read it again!

[Hamoth]

68. So then let me get this strait:

>The very title suggests controversy and someone crying out for
>attention or at a minimum someone looking to hurt and divide.

Heaven forbid I cry out for attention for black people's rights to vote. It might hurt and divide someone? I felt my thread made the point of my title extremely clear. Since you felt it was "bullshit", and sufficiently so that you had to pronounce it here, I think more justification than your emotional reaction to a striking question be put forward.

Yes, the title was designed to inflame. I think people are underinflamed about the fact that black people aren't getting their equal access to the vote. I think that election reform centers around this, and that the fact that the issue is even questionable to the national media, echoes hte question in my title. Get it?

> I'll pass on any collective thought on this subject because
>I feel it's complete bullshit to start with.

Equal rights is bullshit?

[AmerDem]

79. look here poster

"Do black people have as much right to vote as whites" ....you see this title you wrote? I don't like it. To me it sound divisive and comes across as something some repuke would put out. You don't like my opinion? I don't give a flying fuck. I hate the way this title is worded!

[Hamoth]

81. You totally didn't understand the point.

this isn't about whether I like your opinion of something or not...but I am trying to let you see my point. The title is an important part of it.

The title is SUPPOSED to sound like that. Why would I write that then? Because they are saying this in CODE every damn day. Untill we recognize what they are saying, we won't realize how far down the rosey path we have been lead until we reach that old bloody barn.

The very fact that the media acts as if there are two sides to this, PROVES that this question is alive. Is it disgusting that people are asking this today? YES, YOU BET. THAT'S MY POINT!

We have proven the disenfranchisement of blacks is evident.

So what's going on? What's left?

Must be some question on their minds...oh...I see...

[AmerDem]

87. I TOTALLY understand the way it was worded

and I HATE it, get it?

[Hamoth]

88. No...I don't get it.

What about the wording bothers you?

[mgr]

65. Poor header, but there is little controversy in the thread

Look, the title captures the essence of the issue with Ohio vote irregularities, and pretty much all the posters understood this. I have already questioned the use of the term 'black' as inappropriate, but this is an issue that all Democrats need to address and acknowledge that our Party uses African Americans, and gives them little in return. All of a sudden, this time, the discrimination knocks our man out of four year in the oval office, and we're ready to fight for their civil rights.

Mike

[AmerDem]

67. I stand behind what I said

The titles says everything. I cringe.

[Hamoth]

70. You should

You should cringe that this is even a question. But the media uses code to ask this question every day...

"There have always been problems in elections..." they say and nod to each other as the point of disenfranchising blacks is thrown out. Somone should ask them then, if they feel blacks have less of a right to vote than whites. Because failing to take this seriously asserts that opinion.

[mgr]

71. You must have an interesting time with novels. n/t

[AmerDem]

72. Apparently you read what you wish

"Do black people have as much right to vote as whites"....nuff said Socrates!

[mgr]

73. And what is your position?n/t

[AmerDem]

80. no opinion

read my opening response to this thread and you wouldn't be asking redundant questions.

[mgr]

82. Don't think you have anything constructive to offer, so bye. N/T

[AmerDem]

85. I think it's visa versa

don't let the door hit your ass on the way out.

[Hamoth]

77. I don't know what you are saying is objectionable...

The presence of the question? That somone dare ask aloud what the media have been debating in code? I think you really might be missing my point.

[north houston dem]

86. Sounds like it to me

are we good democrats that we don't ask such questions?

Should we go to the back of the bus?

[GetTheRightVote]

90. If the repubs keep get their way, they never will be equal, and to

date they have never been equal, KKK is which out there and hurting this counrty's equality standing, worst under Bush, 1st President to not go to NAACP conference. I believe that fact speaks for itself.

[mgr]

89. It was close.

What I think he could have expressed in a more appropriate manner, might have been that your first post to the thread could have been more precise, such as "Doesn't a black's vote count the same as a white's in Ohio." Of course, I am reading into the post and your intent, but those of the other poster staying current appear to have read the thread in this manner. If this is the case, you may wish to edit your original thread title.

I leave it for the more experience at DU to address whether it was appropriate or not. Sometimes children fear adult conversations because they are heated, and they strike back inappropriately, but the heat is not anger, and there is nothing to forgive or fear. Afterall, racism is the biggest buggaboo in America.

Mike

[Hamoth]

92. The title was designed to unmask the discussion.

There has been a lot of poo-pooing the issue in the media. But I wanted to unmask the discussion for what it really boils down to. Anyone who questions the impropriety or seriousness of the election problems is weighing in on specific side of that question that I posed.

It was meant to be entirely ugly. The fact is ugly. The vieled and coded opinions of hte media and leaders of our nation, are ugly. I simply wanted to pull back the curtain and show it. Thus "calling a 'spade' that which it is."

I appear to have failed to have been clear in my intent.

[mgr]

96. No, not really

I do not mean to be patronizing, but you're a little too idealistic with the issue, and a bit abstract to the point where it seems to be 'anything goes'. It is really not your responsibility to expose the Wizard, most here are aware of the history of slavery, and post reconstruction abuses of African American civil rights. It is kind of like liberalism 101, but the challenge that you rightly are addressing is do we only talk the talk, or should we walk the walk.

The media has pooh-poohed election fraud, but has not addressed any of the specific allegations in any detail. They have not yet said yea or nay to the specific issues in Ohio. You need to be patient.

I would have put the thread title as Civil Rights Abuses in Ohio, and put that map right out there again. The issue needed to be rediscussed, and focused on how to bring this to fruition.

The thread would probably still have given our '1,000 posts club' poster a wedgie, since anything divisive, besides which of the other presidential candidates would have had more integrity that John Kerry when addressing voting irregularities is anathema for the Democratic Party's future prospect. If we are all in lock step, then we might not notice the jack boots we are wearing. The guy's (I doubt a women would act as such) behavior reminds me of Bozos for Bush.

So don't let this get you down, you did the right thing. There is nothing in the thread that is divisive or demeaning to others.

[Hamoth]

98. Jsut some reactions...

> you're a little too idealistic with the issue,

Guilty...Idealism is a lifelong disorder...and there is no cure. ;)

>and a bit abstract to the point where it seems to be 'anything goes'.

Can you clear me up on this one? I might be guilty of idealism, but never have been brought up on abstraction before...Can you help me understand what I said that brings you to that conclusion?

>It is really not your responsibility to expose the Wizard,

Hmm. Sometimes I wonder who will. I see things and want to share my insights. I might wax a bit dramatic on ocasion in so doing, but it's just my way with words...I have a tendency to lapse into flowery language when I get riled up. But I don't see how we are going to make a difference in the voting reform issue without putting the rude racist reality of the problem at the forefront.

[mgr]

110. Reply

I think we are all idealistic, but some have been grounded to reality longer than others. Remember, politics is the art of the possible and of compromise.

The abstract comment has most to do with the vagueness of the initial post to the string. It is very difficult to get at what might be your thesis statement, and what your intentions for this string to accomplish or address.

I think the serious split of opinion is whether reform is needed later, or do we proceed to get judicial relief now. I quite honestly believe we need to address the problem now, because since the Bakke decision, the democratic party has done squat for minorities (the one exception that comes to mind is Clinton's executive order regarding environmental justice). I am comfortable with the civil and political unrest this may lead to, but when trying to build a consensus for this, don't want to sweep the potential for ugliness under a carpet.

Mike

[Name removed]

93. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hamoth]

94. That was not what hte thread title meant.

And I hope that by now, after many paragraphs of explanation, you have understood this.

If you still are not clear, the complicated litterary method I employed can be learned about here:

http://humanities.byu.edu/rhetoric/Figures/R/rhetorical%20questions.htm

[Name removed]

97. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AmerDem]

99. now I should be considered racist?

LOL, I think the repuke machine will make a position for someone of your ilk.

[mgr]

107. No, but we are all bigots.

It is only a question of whether we are bigots for or against something. If one is a bigot for African Americans, one should receive the Benefit of Doubt when expressing one's self. I would not wish to reify the attitudes of my nieces or my best friend into what constitutes condescension to wards African Americans, as each is an African American, and each has their own unique tolerance to wards others, understandings, and experiences.

Of course, I am assuming that is the problem you had with this thread was condescension, but with so little to go on, it is difficult to say. But with the little to go on, and your general tone, it was not difficult to lose my temper.

Mike

[Pacifist Patriot]

113. What is wrong with using a rhetorical question as a header?

Particularly when it highlights a problem that merits attention. You seem to have approached this thread with an overly emotional reaction rather than recognizing it for what it is.

Should blacks have as much right to vote as whites? The obvious answer is yes, the not so obvious answer is then what the heck are we doing about the disparities if we acknowledge the obvious answer? I see nothing hurtful or divisive here. Would you have been offended if the OP had said "Should poor people have as much right to vote as rich?" Resulting dialogue is pretty much the same.

[Hamoth]

119. Sweet mercy thank you!

Glad somone saw jsut what I was aiming for here, thanks!

[Karenina]

124. Hamoth, you been

"double -(at least)- teamed! ;-) Do darker-skinned and less wealthy people in Amurikka have the same right to vote NOT IN CONCEPT BUT IN ACTION as wealthy darker-skinned people or lighter-skinned folks of whatever economic status? Clearly NOT. Please, if ANYONE can find even ONE instance where a poor white community experienced "voting problems," do post a link. And these guys want to distract attention from the SUBSTANCE of your post to the "title" you employed? :eyes:

To you I say, GOOD PR :toast: GET THEIR ATTENTION!!! (Never mind IMHO, you accurately call a spade a SPADE! ;-) )

[MrSlayer]

95. Well yes, by law.

But in practice there is a long way to go before true equality is reached. I agree with you.

[lonestarnot]

100. This topic of my letter to McCain and the rest.

I find it totally infuckingcredible that we are legitimately able to ask that question in 2004!

[berniew1]

103. The systematic suppression wasn't just blacks, in N.M. Indians and poor hi

hispanics. And it was extremely bad there.

http://www.helpamericarecount.org/NewMexicoData/NewMexicoGeneralElection.pdf

[insane_cratic_gal]

105. If African Americans voted Republican

I don't believe we would be seeing the type of suppression that was documented in Oh and Fl others areas across the country.

Case in point in OH 480 precincts were cut from Kerry area's college, poor whites, African Americans. In one county alone they sliced 149!

In Bush Republican areas only 429

I won't stand to hear that it was just excess numbers, that's just bullshit. It was deliberate. If you listen to the Franklin county hearing from last week. You'll hear that some places in 2002 had 5 machines. this year those same areas had 3 and one was usually malfunctioning. Listening to their stories of determination to cast that ballot, brought tears to my eyes. It was inspiring. Despite rain, despite hunger, despite wrestling with low moral. They stood in line.
They combined 2 precincts into one building, so those would stood in line to vote and came up to their turn, were turned away and sent back to the END of the line for their precinct. add another +2 hours.

My own experience was far different in a majority white city. I didn't have to wait at all. There was no line at 9:15 in the morning. By 9:30 after punching a card I was done and on my way home.

Franklin also had 128 unused machines stuck in a storage. While these people stood in line for 2.5 hours to 10 hours.

They also had the brunt of e-voting machines.

There was no doubt if you look at OH, African Americans right to vote, were infringed upon. There is no excuse you can give me that will make me believe otherwise.

It's disgusting to me that in this day in age, there is still targeting and disenfranchising happening.

That's it just my two cents based on what I have heard from those who tried to cast a vote on Nov. 2

[McCamy Taylor]

114. Racism is a tool the rich use to trick poor people into voting GOP..

...i.e against their economic self interests. They prosecute the OJ's and Michael Jackson's of the world to scare the Bubba Jo's senseless. They make celebrities of the Mike Tysons for the same reason. Bubba Jo and his wife Susie Jo become so terrified they rush to join the local Republican Party in hopes that private school vouchers and prayer in public schools will keep their family "safe".

The systematic disenfranchisement of people of color, poor people and young people is not motivated by any -ism, it is just pure evil political dirty trickery. The fact that the GOP rank and file tolerate it IS a sign of their various -isms.

[Darkhawk32]

118. Ding!!!! Winnar!!!! n/t

[ElementaryPenguin]

121. Certainly not in America today. BushCo has taken us back to Jim Crow.

Right-wing, ultra affluent blacks, they may have as much right, but not anyone else.

:puke:

[texpatriot2004]

122. Absolutely they do! I thought that was settled some time ago.

I am disgusted that such blatant racism is rampant today in our electoral process. Even carried out by an African American Blackwell. I know that there were others too, but his efforts add insult to injury.

You know, recently I watched Mississippi Burning again and since it was after the "election" the injustice and the evil of the White "Christian" KKK people was so horrid. So sickening. The hypocrisy was so obvious. There were the decent, good black people and the white monsters who thought they were right fine folks. I don't know, something hit me, the suffering of the blacks, touched me in a new way. I always knew that they suffered, but now I could relate to the injustice, the powerlessness, the cruelty of fate and evil dictators running things. Mind you, I am white, and it was only for a split second that I got a glimpse of this...and I don't mean that it's the same thing that the blacks suffered through because it is not, it's not even close. So I don't mean to make light of their suffering. Just to say that for the first time in my life, for a very brief moment I could understand how horrible it must have been to be up against such injustice that was legal, ordained by the law, by society. It was an awful feeling.