Sometimes people here have a lot of hate and disgust for average Americans

[WilliamPitt]

I see posts all the time by people who cannot believe the American people are going along with all this Bush crap. The torture, the war, the lies...it all gets skated over, and we react with deep frustration. Hell, there was a letter in this alternative weekly magazine here after the election addressed to 'Red State America.' The letter began, "YOU HAY EATING MORONS..."

But after watching the wig-out tonight, I am wondering if there is a deeper truth happening. I am trying to phrase this so as not to be offensive or piss anyone off.

Basically, people don't take the time to read.

Even with all the smart people in this forum, a forum with such a narrow focus, there were and still are a lot of people here who do/did not know:

1. That there are at least two cases in Ohio in two separate courts;

2. That there is more than one lawyer involved;

3. That the Kerry campaign is over, so 'spokespeople' are not all feeding from the same information trough;

4. That Kerry's lawyer did not file a lawsuit, but instead filed motions in support of another lawsuit;

Etc.

I am not saying this to embarrass anyone or make anyone feel bad. The point is this: Policy stuff is complicated, especially when it gets into the courtroom. There is a lot to encompass, a lot of angles and a lot of data.

Possibly the best election fraud activists in America populate this forum, and still the situation managed to overwhelm and get past all these good minds.

So maybe tomorrow, when you wake up, have a little less spite in your heart for average Americans who have never heard of DU, went to a crappy high school where basic civics didn't get taught well, work two jobs so they can feed their three kids and so have to rely on the goddam television to tell them the truth, and have been snookered by a bunch of hatemongers passing themselves off as Christians.

This stuff gets complicated. The job is to cut through that and make it as clear as we can. If we can mess up and blow past information sitting right on the forum here, we can forgive a lot of other people for missing the point on other things.

Slow down. Read. Do not let your emotions overcome you. We have a lot of people to help, and if we do not put the work in first, we can't help them, and then we fail.

[Clark2008]

1. I read it, got it and understand...

AND I'm a red-stater!!

;)

[Skittles]

2. of course you are correct

and of course it is......frustrating. But William, please bear in mind the people I know in Texas are HIGHLY EDUCATED, work one highly-paid job and have access to any kind of media yet they choose to listen to FOX news and conservative talk radio. It's not just "average Americans" we have to reach.

[Razorback_Democrat]

11. Why try to reach them?

they are happy in their money making denial

they think it'll never happen to them (whatever it is)

so why try with them?

[Skittles]

69. yes, they do seem to feel that ignorance is bliss

but they make up a lot of the support the GOP has.

[mordarlar]

104. Some, not all, choose to be blind

A precious few and I have been fighting a lonely battle on the Netscape forums for some time. I have pointed out all the inaccuracies at least 5 times. Listed countless links. There are some who refuse to hear "anything" that pertains to Bush not being what they are determined to believe he is. There are far more that are simply unaware. As new info is posted the view numbers JUMP. The majority of people seem to WANT to KNOW what is going on. It important for us to try and discern between those who do not care and those who DO NOT KNOW.

[Ladyhawk]

43. Unfortunately, most of the Bush voters I know are willfully ignorant.

If I try to talk with them, their eyes glaze over and they get that 1000-mile stare. My retired mother has plenty of time to figure it out, but she won't even try.

I don't know. Maybe it's me. Maybe someone else has to reach them.

[berniew1]

113. Documentation of more fraud in Ohio

http://www.freepress.org/departments/display/19/2004/1046

and http://northnet.org/minstrel/alpage.htm

[bunny planet]

73. Yes, my sister-in-law is a brilliant person, genius IQ, used to be a

liberal living in NYC. She moved to Nashville in 1986 and now she is an ultra right wing, neo-con, fundamentalist who voted for His Fraudulency twice, watches Fox news and listens to Limbaugh. I tried to convert her back before the election and she called me a leftie, pinko, commie, swine. I kid you not. She's also Jewish,...... go figure.

[bunny planet]

79. didn't mean I tried to convert her from being Jewish, just from being a

Republican.

[lavenderdiva]

3. well said....

thank you for reminding us...

[CementDude]

4. OK, but tell me this Pitt...

Has Kerry "entered the game" yet?

It's hard to tell.

[WilliamPitt]

7. It's hard to tell

for you. 'CementHead' might be a more appropriate screen name.

:)

Seriously, he's in it to a degree. If he convinces a judge to impound the machines and allow the depositions, that is a very big deal.

[CementDude]

17. I'll excuse the personal attack..

..because I know you've been glued to the PC and phone all day.

[WilliamPitt]

19. See

---> :) <---
I don't smile at people when I am attacking them. At least, not on computers.

[LittleClarkie]

63. Actually you're doing quite well

for someone who's been snorting cigarettes all day ;-)

[pacalo]

37. :)

[seito]

15. Where I come from,

that would be considered extremely rude.

I am normally a very tolerant person, just ask Mehr, but the tone, my friend, seemed a bit over the top.

JMHO

on edit: Just to clarify, I am addressing Cement Dude

[pacalo]

39. I kind of prefer CementHead. ;)

[lonestarnot]

40. Seito have a beer.

[seito]

47. You buyin ?

:beer:

[lonestarnot]

49. Sure ...Drinks all 'round

:beer: :beer: :beer: :beer:

[Snivi Yllom]

96. LOL. You nailed it

We need more "Breaking Earth Shattering News" posts that fizz into nothingness like we need extra holes in our heads.

I like your sense of humor.

[NMDemDist2]

5. just couldn't resist one more post huh Will? But I'm glad you didn't

because we do need to be aware that the "average" citizen doesn't get much more than a headline or a soundbite of news a few times a week

others are totally brainwashed by news and talk radio

we need to continue trying to reframe the debate and educate, educate educate if we stand any hope of success

[Blue_In_AK]

6. Well spoken

I also think it's wise to back off a little bit on the generic name-calling of the Republicans. Not all of them are completely evil, and there is room in our democracy for people with different views. Plenty of Republicans are not all that thrilled with the BFEE themselves, and if we're going to bring Bush down, it makes far more sense to have those people on our side, as well. Just my 2 cents.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

16. It's a waste of time and energy

Be mad at what's going on, not at the people who voted for Fuckface.

But, as far as their intellectual inadequacies being excused by their not-so-hot education or the advantages some of us had that Fuckface voters didn't have, no, I'm not buying it.

There's a lot more available to the average American than cable news and USA Today. A little bit of intellectual curiosity and the capacity to ask "Exactly what does it mean when Bush says we're safer?" isn't a big stretch. They just didn't want to ask, because they'd made up their minds.

And then the namecalling began. Let's not forget what John Kerry endured, and how the rightwingnut commentators encouraged it.

I just want that preservation order granted, everything expedited, and history made. Doesn't seem like a lot to hope for, does it?

[Carolab]

114. Old Leftie Lawyer

I'm with you.

No excuse for ignorance these days. How did we all get here? By the grace of God? Because we are somehow gifted? No, because somewhere, somehow, we PAID ATTENTION to what was going on. And, Will, just because we get a bit mixed up about the exact details from time to time doesn't mean a thing. Some people here are busier than others; some haven't been following everything as closely as others; and a lot of this information is, well, just a lot of information. Not to mention the emotionality of it all--hard to stay focused when you are IN FLAMES.

I'm being as patient, tolerant and attuned as I can be. But I am still angry, at the slowness of the process, at the fact that we are being subjected to this, at the extreme unfairness of it all. And so, if I am angry with other American citizens who have not taken it upon themselves to investigate this, or who have decided to tune out and take it all on "faith" that it will all somehow work out okay (meaning they assume someone else will take care of it for them), excuse me. But they are not even giving it a bit of their attention, whereas we are all working on it hard. I, for one, do not think it is at all FAIR to have to educate others in this process. Where is CIVIC RESPONSIBILITY? Where is PERSONAL ACCOUNTABILITY?

AMERICA: Walk away from the TEE-VEE! Pull your heads out of your collective butts. And GET ON THE BANDWAGON with the rest of us.

[wendypan]

105. The shifting sands of time...

Remember it was a Republican, Nixon, who got us out of Viet Nam! Like him or not, he was not dumb. (BTW, He and Clinton share the highest I.Q. of a President on record.) He realized that occupying and trying to force democracy was/is a loosing battle.

And it was a Republican, Eisenhower, who warned of a "growing industrial military complex".

Parties shift and change and rearrange over time. And so do people. Don't give up on others yet. The battle has just begun.

[Left coast liberal]

8. Nicely said...

:)

[DELUSIONAL]

9. Take a break -- go to bed

sing to your cat. Call your mom.

Watch a good movie. Eat some ice cream -- or whatever.

This is the second post after the one where you said was your last one for the night.

[lonestarnot]

50. Now hold on partner...Democracy is worth staying up LLLLAAATTTE

for; how bout some popcorn with that beer?:beer:

[merh]

10. Damnit, another thread to thank you for Mr. Pitt!

Well written and to the point. I sure do appreciate you and I know many here at DU do to. :grouphug:

[seito]

12. Lots of wisdom in those words

Thanks.

[meganmonkey]

13. Thanks Will, people listen to you

for whatever reason ;)

And you put it well. I think it's really important that we know what we;re talking about here because we're among the only people spreading the word. So we need to spread it accurately.

:bounce:

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

14. I ain't gettin' worked up. Period.

Every time something comes out of the Kerry camp, all I see is tactics and strategy. Playing some cards, holding others and keeping one or two up their sleeves.

Now, I am not a lawyer, and I don't pretend to know how to do lawyerin' stuff. But I do know tactics and I know 'em when I see 'em, and I am seeing 'em.

[KaliTracy]

21. yep... i'm seeing 'em too n/t

[Lostnote03]

25. "lawyerin' stuff"...?...Lol....

.....No need to patronize me ....j/k

[Laurab]

78. I love this post.. and the "lawyerin' stuff"

And I couldn't agree more. I'm seeing them too (tactics and stuff), and if you think WE'RE confused, imagine how confused the other side must be. Of COURSE they're not questioning the election...but, um, they are trying to look, just a little bit into how * got all those votes - they're doing it legally, even....they're doing some "lawyerin' stuff"...

Oh wait - I do know one thing about "lawyerin' stuff" - you're supposed to be REAL careful about what you say to the other side. I do think patience is a virtue here - I wish I had some!

[karlrschneider]

18. Will, are you suggesting we should avoid pointing out the fact that

there are FIFTY MILLION FUCKING MORONS WHO VOTED FOR CHIMP?
Jeezus, sorry for shouting, but we HAVE become a nation halfway populated by goddamn fucking idiots.
/rant

[WilliamPitt]

22. Thus it ever was

and ever will be.

Quit or get to work. Your choice.

Even smart people need help. Remember, Vietnam was started by the DC chapter of the Harvard Club.

[lonestarnot]

44. You must have forgotten about the defaults to bushilter, vote suppression,

poll logs, triad tampering with recount etc...small memory lapse to come up with your 50 million.

[saracat]

20. I understand Will. I did take the time to read. I understand all of the

above, but I don't agree about the spokesperson, particularly not for Kerry. As a senator he already has a press person.He has an obligation to make sure that what he wants out there is stated. If Hoffemeir (sp) is stating something that is incorrect, there should be a retraction. Period. There is in fact a "Kerry Legal Team" still in place. The legal team should be united in its perpective. Period. It baffles me that they can be considered representatives of Kerry and come at it from entirely different points of view. Olberman called it right on this one. You can't have it both ways. And BTW the poster,Dr.O , on another thread,who stated that all the lawyers on the motion do not have to be listed was correct. Do we know for a fact that Hoffmeir isn't associated with this motion?

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

28. Or maybe, just maybe...

Someone went off the reservation. If he did, getting him back on the reservation, with a statement to mollify us, would just be tipping the hand?

Just a thought.

People get all funny in the head when they go on TV. I have seen it many times.

[KittyWampus]

53. Or Maybe They WANT People To Be Confused.... Now THAT'S Not A

martial tactic is it?

:think:

:)

[SueZhope]

23. Excellent points you are making.

I am reading and yet I am still getting confused by what's been going on. I truly don’t know what to make of Kerry, his lawyers, and so on. Just when I think I understand I do not. I am keeping an open mind .

Thanks for all 3 of your last post of the night..LOL:)

[senseandsensibility]

24. I disagree.

I've heard very little of that kind of sentiment on DU. At least ninety percent of the time, posters on DU are fighting for the underdog, as I've done all my life. Both my husband and I have dedicated our lives to teaching in the disadvantaged public schools of a large city. We expect no praise (which is good, because we get precious little), but we certainly don't expect to be accused of looking down on others either. No one here is ill informed. They may be a little tired or cranky, but so what? The people who really, really, don't respect the average American are the repuke ruling class.

[WilliamPitt]

26. See posts 11 and 18 in this thread alone

[GetTheRightVote]

33. I believe too, that we need to be concerned with KO message being

put out for the general public to read and take in, if this is not the right message on one of the only channels or news shows that are covering the election fraud, I do believe we have something to be concerned with, that we should endeavor to enlightened those around us who will listen to ignore KO's message this night. Though I will always follow my own beliefs either way .... but like you say some people depend on the likes of KO & others for their only news source.

:kick:

[Left coast liberal]

66. Don't let them rile ya, Will!

Come on, Will. Who cares about 11 and 18? There is bigger stuff a'foot. Let it roll off your back.

We all have our wacko moments. Maybe this is theirs.

Cheers

:)

[KaliTracy]

27. thanks for the post, Will --

we do need to slow down and take things one step at a time. And, I believe that there are some out there who never thought to question the government before.... reaching them will take much reason and time.

and right now, that is all we have.

[EFerrari]

29. Thanks, WP, well said. We all need a reality check

There's so much at stake. Our best weapon is our ability to work together in a timely way.

We can do that -- if we're careful.

OT: Last Friday I started a vigil for peace and truth out here at Ocean Beach in San Francisco. It was Christmas Eve and the attendance was all the homeless folks who live on the beach. We had a fire at sundown and talked about the election.

If these people who have so little can be thoughtful, surely we can be.

[bettyellen]

30. ? FOR U: it's hard for the hatred of ignorance to not spill over...

in one way or another. even if you just hate the sin and forgive the sinner. the sinner just hates you even more, and the mind closes further.
how do we talk effectively and honestly about educating people when for the most part they don't feel they want or need it and indeed have resentment for your perceived arrogance? i heard this again and again, all the repugs i talked to thought that dems were know it alls and that nuances were bullshit doublespeak. i see nothing short of a MSM takeover reaching most of these people.

[KaliTracy]

64. if you are trying to change someone's belief structure

you will have a pretty long ride. Even dems have different things that they believe in, but still collectively call themselves democrats.

Finding one message, and sticking to it, helps. I know that perscription drugs/health care and education both were talking points for me with a couple of fence sitting friends. They may not agree with all the things I do -- but I know I gave them something to chew on when we were done talking. Did I change their vote? Who knows. What is important is that we talked about the issues.

Beliefs cannot be changed overnight, nor should they be. The fact that our government is being hijacked may be lost on some people isn't because they are ignorant, but because they aren't aware of history, aren't aware of what a democracy should be, aren't aware that if they don't like something, they have the right to at least question it.

And personally, I believe that all learning comes from the ability to ask questions, and often, to not rely on the answers that are simply provided .vs the answers one seeks out for him/her self.

[bettyellen]

67. but these people are being trained that having questions is unpatriotic...

i agree with will on the brainwashing point, this is what i am saying, how do you reach closed minds. those "too exhausted" to think and question?
i'm just saying it was a large percentage of repugs i talked with. i just couldn't compete w/ the faux news. ugh!

[KaliTracy]

81. as a former teacher.... it just takes time.

and you may not ever reach the ones you want. It starts with discussions about things that are important to them -- though they may not know it. For those in the "exhausted" camp, who are too tired to think and question..... it's listening to them, their wants, their fears. It's realizing that getting people to think is more an act of getting them to question. They are so used to being spoon fed ideas that it takes time and effort. Find a few spins of news you truly are vested in, and when something like that comes up in conversation, start slowly there. Phrase your knowledge of the situation in questions, make them bring all they have to the table, and then build on it in a non-threatening way (not so easy to do in some situations, depends on where your hot-buttons are, and I certainly have some of my own!)


Give a person information, and they may take it or not. Encourage a person to question.... and they may just surprise you.

[ColoradoDemocrat]

31. Where I find my sympathy

I look at America today as an evolution of people escaping OVERT oppression and now attempting to rise above COVERT oppression. A heck of an undertaking.

[bettyellen]

34. Nice Post + WECOME TO DU ColDem!!

:bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:
:bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

[ColoradoDemocrat]

102. After spending too much time being scornful...

I figured this one out. I do spend a lot of my time at work teaching critical thinking to the kids I get to work with.

Thanks for the welcome!

[newscott]

32. I think in large part the MSM lets Bush Skate

is because it would take to long to deliver the report. It's too complicated to explain in a 30 second segment.

That's a crying shame.

[bettyellen]

38. WECOME TO DU NEWSCOTT!!

:bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:
:bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

[Wilms]

35. deeper truth happening

In so many ways!

In my despairing heart, I want, BOTH, to see Gore vs Bush reversed and the regime carried off to Abu Gharib for questioning. It doesn't make any sense. But knowing what we know, it's understandable, or at least I forgive myself for that.

Then there are the good red voting people in the purple states, who would, if they knew what we knew, feel just as :grr:

Then there is the real world, that in our best moments, we glimpse...and move. O8)

[bettyellen]

41. WECOME TO DU WILMS!!

:bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:
:bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:
:bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

[McCamy Taylor]

36. Two kinds of people, one think we are born pure society corrupts us...

...other thinks we are born selfish society civilizes us. Most people belong to one camp or the other, and when people from different camps get into a "discussion" they seldom settle the argument, almost not even worth trying. I am not going to bother trying. Will offer some concrete advise.

The GOP recruits people who feel alienated and unloved. It plays upon their fears and tells them "Keep homosexuals, blacks, muslims etc" away and you will be safe and surrounded by people who will love and appreciate you.

So, if you want to change their minds, whatever you do, dont start by telling them what stupid, ignorant redneck trash they are, ok?

Also, the average IQ of people is about 100, meaning they are brighter than you may think from their choice of TV viewing material.

On the other hand, fear makes people do mean, nasty things, like in Texas, where a majority of people would prefer to see innocent people excuted than risk a guilty murderer walking free. So try not to scare them too much either.

Love, reassurance, understanding, empowerment...these are what people really want.


PS How did 20% of Americans figure out that election fraud happened? It hasnt been on 20% of the news. Americans must be a lot sharper than people are giving them credit for.

[WilliamPitt]

54. "The GOP recruits people who feel alienated and unloved"

I don't know that I agree with this. I know a lot of Republicans - weirdly, I had Christmas dinner with a Representative from the New Hampshire state legislature. Die-hard Republican, head of the New Hampshire chapter of the Republican Women of America.

She was also the one who fought the fight to make sure people who leave their jobs to serve abroad in the National Guard have jobs to return to. Before she fixed it, New Hampshire had no law on the books protecting the jobs of Guardsmen who get deployed. They'd leave, serve, and come home to find their jobs gone. She got the law passed.

Her husband was there, also a Republican. He was a General in the Air Force and a doctor; told me a story about treating General LeMay way back in the day. He had just run for a House seat himself this time around, and lost by 131 votes. But the woman who beat him apparently lives in New York, and had not fulfilled the residency requirement, so she may get booted and he may wind up in the seat.

They were two of the nicest people I've met, totally engrossed in the work of local politics but doing work that, for a variety of reasons, other Reps don't feel like doing. It blew my mind that New Hampshire had no Guard protection law, and I could tell she was really proud of having fixed that.

My grandfather was also a Republican, and he was an epic human being. He was able to construct utterly seamless arguments for what he believed in. He was a litigator for 60 years, one of the aces in our legal community here, smarter than any three people combined I've ever known. Rock-ribbed Republican, and easily the most honorable and admirable man I have ever met.

I actually know a lot of Republicans, and only a few of them make me want to break a glass and eat the pieces when I talk to them or debate them.

I think a lot of Republicans out there aren't really Republicans, but are hypnotized: By fear, by the television (not the media but the television entire, which stills people and separates people and pacifies people), by racial tensions they inherited with mother's milk (the unavoidable dark side of our pluralism, and a source of so many central problems), by preachers who capitalize on these things for reasons of profit, or any combination thereof.

I think a lot of Republicans aren't really Republicans, and can be convinced that fear is a tool being used against them, that the mind is meant for reading and doing instead of sitting and staring, that the Americans all around them are brothers and sisters and patriots, and that men who preach the word of the Lord with their hands on your wallet are not to be trusted.

We got it light. Imagine trying to overcome a millenia of feudalism and barbarism and dark ages and the absolute rule of popes who acted like emperors and burned people who strayed from the party line.

Yet the Enlightenment happened. They already did the heavy lifting.

[johnaries]

77. A lot of Republicans AREN'T Republicans! They just don't know it!

Will's right! During the election, I was carrying around a poll that basically showed that the majority of Americans shared OUR stance on most issues... they just didn't know that it WAS our stance! In many cases, they actually thought it was BUSH's stance! People aren't stupid, they are just mis-informed!

We all need to remember that the Average American does not do the type of diligent research that we do. The Avg Amer is concerned with paying bills, mowing the lawn, the kid's braces, etc.

They're RINO's, Repub In Name Only. They're not stupid, they just think that Our Government will eventually work everything out for the best, and Government is just not a top priority for them. Unless, someone like Limburger presses their emotional buttons.

We need to push some emotional buttons, too. We've got plenty of ammo. We need to let the Majority of the American People know that WE are the ones looking out for their backs.

Neo-Con Hate and Disgust is not what is needed here: what we need is the Embrace of All People that we say we support.

[roseBudd]

98. Republican is a brand that a lot of consumers bought like Jello

They see the TV commercials and don't stop to think that the non name brand "gelatin dessert" is a better deal, because the co. that made it is not picking their pocket to pay for the TV commercials.

The Republican brand is based on resentment of anyone who gets any help from a government program. The Republican brand depends on people who assume that there are enough jobs for every able bodied adult and anyone who does not have a job is lazy and does not want to work.

The Republican brand appeals to selfishness. If you vote for me I will give you a tax refund. Be selfish, don't worry about a deficit.

[McCamy Taylor]

101. you must not know a lot of southern blue collar Republicans..

..they are a dime a dozen where i live, they vote against their economic self interest because the GOP has them scared to death of the boogey man

[me b zola]

80. I agree with all that you say,however,

Your statement of "The GOP recruits people who feel alienated and unloved. It plays upon their fears..." Are the same recruitment tactics of the Nazis, klansmen, skinheads, Muslim terrorists, & Christian fundamentalists. My point is that people in power seeking more power have been extremely successful in identifying and recruiting those who feel as though they have nothing to lose, but everything to gain. They are, in essence, brainwashed. It is very difficult to gain their trust enough to get them to even consider any facts that you are revealing to them. They have been 'taught' to not trust any outside influences.

I was able to flip a couple of repugs to vote for Kerry, and we should still reach out to those of reason. But there is a great number of people that we will not be able to reason with.

[NVMojo]

42. Thanks, Will, and you are correct ...most people I know out here

in red state Nevada are pretty damn simple in their needs, working their asses off, only have the mainstream media to rely on, too tired to spend hours online like some of us. They are a good example of those who have been DUPED by this administration with their "good old average Christian boy" President act ....

And, I still think we need to quit over-reacting about some of this stuff, crying for instant gratification ...we have a nation in almost sheer denial that Bush could possibly be a bad guy based on the information they've been fed.

This is worse than an war. Look at 9-11 ...we still don't have the truth on that and the families of the dead have still not been vindicated, contrary to the stupid campaign ads the Bush cabal ran before the election. These people are so hunkered down and entrenched in our nation's capitol, it will take worse than a hemroidectomy to remove them.

Our nation has already glazed over with blow job scandals so I don't know what "bad action" it will take to install a righteous disgust and anger for these people nationwide ....

Kerry has fought these baastards and won ...but this battle is bigger and he probably knows personally how evil they are...my father is a Viet Nam vet and he never had to have his military career stripped and pissed on in public.

[Der Blaue Engel]

45. Well I read, and I don't get it

Guess I'm a dumb fuck. :dunce:

Before I go any farther, let me point out that I am in the I BELIEVE Kerry camp, and I'm not freaking about anything that's happened today. But...

Quote from KO's blog:

In announcing that the Kerry-Edwards group would join the bid in Federal District Court in Ohio to preserve all "evidence" from the election and recount there, Mr. Hoffheimer said, on behalf of the senators, that such preservation was necessary because, "Only then can the integrity of the entire electoral process and the election of Bush-Cheney warrant the public trust."

Is this not the same filing made today, to which Hoffheimer is referring?

I'm not in any way advocating a return to chicken-head running about, but from this statement, I can certainly see why people are confused.

Hoffheimer may not be the filing attorney, but he made a definitive statement about the filing in question, so it seems only natural to assume he's part of it in some way, and was referring to it in his later e-mail to KO.

From truthout.org {emphasis mine}:

The document filed in Ohio reads as follows:

Pursuant to Federal Rule of Civil Procedure 26, Intervenor-Defendant Kerry-Edwards 2004, Inc. hereby moves this Court for an order preserving materials from the 2004 presidential election and for leave to take a limited number of depositions on an expedited schedule. The depositions and preservation order sought by Intervenor- Defendant Kerry-Edwards 2004, Inc. are the same as those sought in the motion filed on December 23, 2004 by Defendants NVRI, Cobb and Badnarik. Intervenor-Defendant Kerry-Edwads 2004, Inc. hereby adopts the memorandum and proposed order filed by the Defendants in support of its own motion.

Will, this is what I read. (True, I did not read the entire filing, but I don't see a link to it there, nor do I see a mention of which attorney filed this today.) My point is, can you not see how people would be seeing these events as related, even thinking people who are paying attention?

Am I missing something? Or just stupid? I only have an IQ of 151, so it's quite possible I'm just not gettin' it...but could someone smarter please explain? :shrug: (Maybe a box of rocks?) ;)

[bettyellen]

57. um, the two lawsuit thing is confusing, and will either got it wrong or

lied about it i(HIS WORDS) or was goofing about lying about it in one of the many threads today. he totally confused me too, on that point.
suffice to say there were more mixed messages coming from different kerry people today that upset and confused a lot of people. a lot of people got bent out of shape that kerry isn't yelling fraud from the top of his lungs. there was much ugliness saying kerry joining the suit today wasn't enough. a lot of people thinking there's no point unless it overturns the results. i did not see a lot of red state bashing, but i think he did notice a lot of ignorance on this issue today here and used it as an anolgy to teach us patience.

[Der Blaue Engel]

74. Sure, I see the point he was making,

that since we're having trouble processing all the mis-/dis-/and plain-ol'-information ourselves, we should look to our own beams and stop beating up the general public for their motes. (And I agree. I've tried to steer clear of bashing anyone.)

But...I still can't process today's info., and I'm feelin' dumb! :)

(Hey, Pitt's teaching parables! I'm having an epiphany...must go work out numerology of letters in his name. :P )

[bettyellen]

83. well kerry added his name to the suit they were trying to dismiss

on the progressives and the greens to impound machines, programs, voting records etc. it's just his people didn't have a unified message in that they are not claiming they are going to try to overturn the election or even find fraud, maybe just "mistakes". so they ended up sounding a little lame, and a flame war started.

[Der Blaue Engel]

85. Thanks, bettyellen

I do get that part, actually.

:hi:

[johnnie]

46. Hey man...

I'm playin' it cool. B-)
Really though...too many knee-jerk reactions here. There is so much information to go through that when I am done soaking in some of it, there is more being posted.
These last few weeks have been a whirlwind of information and i find it best to keep my yap shut and my eyes working. I really appreciate all that everyone has been doing because I could never keep up.

[HuskiesHowls]

48. I have to agree

I consider myself to be rather forgiving, but I see a LOT of labeling of Republicans as "gap-toothed, redneck, gun-totin', beer-guzzlin', NASCAR-watchin', idjits" as if this describes everyone who voted for Bush. I'm sorry, but it just isn't so.

I feel the best way to describe how I feel about the people here is related by telling what happened to me one time in my therapist's office.

Early in my therapy, I was telling her that I wanted to be like the other people at my apartment complex: playing around the pool, drinking, not having a care in the world. She told me to get out of her office. I ask why, and she explained it this way:
"You're just like those other people now, except that you KNOW you have a problem, and you're willing to work on it. They have the same problems you have, maybe even more, but they don't recognize it, and don't want to do anything about it. They are afraid of what they might find out."

I think that most of the people here are good, honest thinking people not afraid of what they may find out. Also, we are not afraid to do the work that needs to be done.

My 2¢ worth

[Oversea Visitor]

51. They are expecting instant result

Fraud is hard to prove
1. You need a target ..... nail the guys who did it
2. You need to prove date time and place

OK look at Ohio you cant shout fraud yet.
Who did it???
Where???
When???
What is the benefit??

OOps did I lose you guys in cyberspace.... damn I would love to links you guys mind to one supercomputer so at a touch of a key stroke I can input my thoughts.

Like I say before this election does not provide a true and fair view of the will of the people. Looks at all the evidents....

Thats what the Kerry/Edwards group are saying the evidences are there but there is no proof of fraud........ yet

Its a tough tough road they are travelling

[anaxarchos]

52. Actually, there is a touch of reverse elitism in all that...

There are two issues in your post. The first is about the discussion of events in Ohio and Kerry on which I won't comment. The other is whether people have a right to be angry at 'red states', evangelicals, or 'hay eaters'. They most certainly have that right.

America voted with its eyes open in 2004 and a significant number of people knew precisely who they were voting for when they voted for B**H. Crappy High Schools and two jobs doesn't excuse it. In fact, the people with the worst schools waited for hours in the rain to vote for Kerry. The people who have crap jobs voted for Kerry. Even a majority of those who speak imperfect english voted for Kerry. Ignorance was no kind of excuse in this election.

A battle for hearts and minds? Sure. But with enough respect for those we are talking to to be angry at them. Let's not try to patronize those that voted for the victimizers. It won't work.

As for the others, the victims who didn't buy into B**H - we are supposed to be angry.

[WilliamPitt]

56. See post 54

[bettyellen]

62. and the resentment they feel towards the "educated elite" , Will ???

how do we talk effectively and honestly about educating people when for the most part they don't feel they want or need it and indeed have resentment for your perceived arrogance? i heard this again and again, all the repugs i talked to thought that dems were know it alls and that nuances were bullshit doublespeak. i see nothing short of a MSM takeover reaching most of these people.

[bettyellen]

68. I have to say i agree with this as well. A bit of anger/ impatience is

natural and justified. broad sweeping attacks, no.
But you are 100% right about the patronizing attitude, it does not work. They hate us for "thinking we are smarter" already!
Welcome to DU!
:bounce: :bounce:

[senseandsensibility]

71. Wonderful post!!!

:toast: Excellent! Really, it should be its own thread! You know, just because a few very well educated republicans with infinite advantages in life are able to come across as nice people, doesn't mean that their ideas are not totally back assward. I have FAR more respect for the people you describe, and that I interact with everyday. The parents of the students I teach would not be caught dead voting for *. Their English is poor, their bank account is non existent, and they work at a restaurant or clean peoples' houses and think that they're lucky. Somehow they know that * is evil, they know that he is bad for working people, they KNOW THAT HE IS THEIR ENEMY. I love these people. They are the ones we should be supporting, praising, helping, and trying to understand. An American who is well off financially, college-educated, well read, and still votes for *? Sorry. That means, at the minimum, that they know that he lied us into Iraq and that thousands of our countrymen are dead and maimed for no reason, and they still voted for him. Enough said.
Congratulations on a great post!:toast:

[bush_is_wacko]

55. Thanks, I needed that!

In the rush to get the information a lot of us glance over some things and that does not help!

[Mojorabbit]

58. I know I am new here

but what jars me is everytime I see the words repukes, repugs, etc.
Maybe it is because I am older. These are debasing words and they grate.
I believe that to reach them we need to come from a place of respect for them as people first and not from a place of anger.
Just my thoughts.

[Chimpanzee]

61. I think when people refer to repukes, etc.

they are not referring to the masses of good republicans, but they are referring to the evil administration and their apologists such as the people at freerepublic.com. I agree with you that we shouldn't be using those terms as it is offputting to those we are ultimately trying to reach.

[Chimpanzee]

59. IMHO

Most people that voted for Bush are ignorant. That doesn't mean they are of low IQ or uneducated. They just have not been privy to the truth, which is partly the fault of the media and moreso the fault of the lying Bushitler. They were mostly betrayed by the MSM, which gave more air time to the SBVFTreason than to exposing their lies.

[Melissa G]

60. Sometimes people who are frustrated with the unreality of the

MSM want a place to vent. I write off a lot of DU comments to that letting off steam idea but it would be nice if comments were a bit more charitable.
We who are totally obsessed enough to be here every day have waaaayyy more info than the rest of even my most liberal friends. Most folks have no idea how complete this media blackout is.
My theory is everyone keep telling ten people a day or as many as possible and good things will happen. Keep working, NEVER give up!

[troubleinwinter]

65. One practical baby-step would be

for DUers to avoid the Free Repub site altogether (those people are not typical). And especially avoid dragging the stuff here.

Just reminds me of junior high school.

[Dancing_Dave]

70. "Average" American media morons just make me sick!

But every day I find more not so "average" Americans who are preparing for the total cultural and political revolution, which is THE ONLY HOPE FOR SAVING THIS RAPIDLY DELCINING CORRUPTED EMPIRE.

[fooj]

72. Thank you, Will!!!

"How I wish that somewhere there existed an island for those who are wise and of goodwill. In such a place even I would be an ardent patriot." -Einstein

[fearnobush]

75. Sober minds do prevail.

This was always at the minimum an eight year fight. The vast majority of the American people are tired, trying to make ends meet, yet most have never suffered the life experience of those living in the former Soviet states like Ukraine or East block Germany. Those people have fresh memories of what government oppression is like. This is why they are willing to fight in mass union and protest. We as Americans do not have this experience. We have always trusted our values and our concept of freedom. It has been hammered in to our heads since birth. As a result, denial becomes are number one enemy. Those of us informed and here at DU are blessed with foresight to see threw this denial. We see what the end result of a Bush stealing admin coupled with a compliant media and a weak opposition party can and will do if left unchecked or corrected. We the American people are not at fault, our media has shaped us this way. It will take time, we must inform each other as well as the willing. Being ever vigilant, will prevail.

[Proud_Lefty]

76. Thanks for all your input

Sure appreciate all the Will Pitt posts over the past several days. You are someone I deeply admire and I feel confident quoting you. I live in an area of far right Republicans, my husband works with them on a base and most of my family are Republicans. In fact, I was also raised a Republican and know that generally, they're good people. When Bush fought tooth and nail in 2000 to avoid a recount, I left the party and I know for a fact there are many other (ex)Republicans like me.

I always feel that there is little difference between me and my Republican friends and family. That difference is my knowledge that the MSM is full of BS and they believe all the talking points because that's all they've known. Whenever I hear anyone on DU refer to freepers and all the other names, I never picture any of my friends. I envision the head strong radicals you see in the media, like Limbaugh, Scarborough, O'Reilly, lying and vicious.

The past several days have been extremely hard on a lot of us. By this afternoon, my muscles were so tied up in knots, I could barely move. We all need an outlet, but also need to be reminded of how we're coming across.

[RevCheesehead]

82. Hey, Will - Isn't your original post really about US?

Maybe I'm the dense one here, but it seems to me that you were actually telling us to get a grip and quit freaking out on any little thing which doesn't seem to go our way.

This ain't about the rest of America. This ain't about Republicans. It's about our own inability to read and comprehend basic information which is readily available to us.

We read only part of a post, have an instant emotional reaction, and then proceed to reply without thinking through what we are saying. In that regard, we are no better than the rest of America who "don't get" what we're trying to say.

I think you were trying to be too nice in your post. Just lay it out, since people will only read what they want to, anyways. The rest of us will take the time to read and digest before we reply.

[housewolf]

87. Isn't this always the case?

When you point your finger at someone, you have three other fingers pointing back at you.

Everything they accuse us of, they tell us something about what they do. Everything we accuse them of, we tell ourselves something about what we do. That's just the way it works - you can't name something in someone else if it isn't something that you own also, even if it is a "shadow" aspect that you would deny with all of your might. We are all human, we all contain seeds of the best and the worst of all human characteristics, like them or not. Some we have activated and we allow ourselves, others remain hidden and unactivated. Nonetheless, the potential for the greatest and the worst in within all of us.

It's when you can find this place with someone ... this common humanity, where we are all fully human ... that empathy and compassion can begin.

[RevCheesehead]

88. I love the way you think.

Thanks! :)

[Peace Patriot]

84. A couple of thoughts:

1. I don't know how the "red" states really voted, nor does anyone--so I am making no judgments about "red" states, and I think it's foolish for anyone else to. Personally, I believe that the majority of voters repudiated Bush Inc., and that many former Bush supporters turned against him & Co.--and I find it all the more admirable that ordinary Americans saw through the Bush Inc. B.S. with no help from the MICM (mainstream illusion creating media). I've always had faith in ordinary Americans.

2. We are at the vortex of evil forces here in the U.S. today--ugly greedy men who think nothing of killing 100,000 innocent people in Iraq, and robbing us blind. We are where these men come from, we spawned them; and we are also the very special target of their unrelenting propaganda. There is power here, among us, that they want to suck from us--the strength of our government when it has "the consent of the people," our wealth in resources and our existing infrastructure, built up by far better men and women than these BushCons; and the energy of our hardworking, industrious, creative people. It is necessary for them to dominate us, to propagandize us, and to force illusions on us, in order to control the mechanisms of power by which they are trying to bully and dominate the world. So, I always, always use compassion in discussing or dealing with people who buy into BushCon illusions. They are literally SUFFERING from brain-washing, and every step they take against this vortex is a step into hurricane force winds. They need to be encouraged, not despised.

3. I think that the main force of our educational and P.R. efforts should be FIRST OF ALL to inform those people who voted for Kerry what happened to their vote. This is the majority of voters and they have been kept deliberately ignorant of these facts. I think it will relieve their minds to know that the country did NOT go "red." And I am absolutely certain that they will rally to the election fraud cause once they know, because they FEEL it--that something was very wrong with the election--and also they would absolutely love to see champions fighting on their behalf to get Bush out. They will really get behind it. They are EAGER to know what happened and to fight back. BushCon believers are hopeless in this regard (compassion, compassion...). Why aim any argument at them? Don't even think of them for now! It's the Kerry MAJORITY that we need to reach.

[delphine]

86. I think people see what they want to see in these threads and in

every Kerry statement or Kerry atty statement or Olbermann wording or Pitt phrase.

Kerry burps after dinner and people scramble to decipher whether it was really dyspepsia caused by his belief the election was stolen by fraud.

Every other word means there's this grand plan in the K-E camp.

They don't file their papers quickly enough so old Will is somehow horseshit - until they DO file and then Will is a hero, except that he can't clarify the entire situation quickly enough so he gets bombarded and then he can't take it anymore and then he's horseshit again?

(On the other hand, Will, I was a legal secretary for . . . ever and you were a paralegal, so we have one step up on others who don't have any experience with intervenors and such, so a little slack?)

I think we're just really looking for any scrap of news that tells us there's hope. But seriously, the K-E people seem to be watching a different clock than we are - we're on the "Stop Dick from certifying electors on 1/6/05" clock and they're on the "We aren't contesting the election" clock.

Actually I really think they're trying to tell us to shut the f**k up about fraud and let the lawsuits and depositions and evidence speak for itself. We just have no patience.

Sorry Will, for all the bullshit. I love your stuff on TO.

Too bad I'm allergic to cats. But dogs are funnier when they eat peanut butter anyway.

:)

[housewolf]

89. Lots of widom here....

You speak many truths here - especially the part about looking for hope in every piece of news.

It's been difficult sticking to this with it's slow pace and the fact that we are, basically, leaderless. We are (most of us anyway) on the outside watching what the actors in the circumstance are doing, and it is difficult wanting something so bad and only really being able to watch. Will is a spectator too, although he has a little more access to the actors than we do. Andy is or has been an actor, as have some others who post here. But for the most part, we feel removed and somewhat helpless.

But you know what??? This is the transition that is going on on a societal basis. You know, over the past several years we have been watching our primary structures crumbling - corporate, government, religious, media - all of our leaders are being discredited and falling into ruin. The old models, structures and hierarchies do not work anymore. None of these institutions serve the people anymore. So what I am saying is that, as much as we wish for one, we're not going to find a leader. Kerry has failed us. We have tried to inaugurate Will into our leader and he has declined. The media has failed us, they are providing no leadership. It's got to be up to us to figure this out and find our way, individually and as a group, without leadership.

Sounds like a daunting task, but I think this is what's up for us.

(And I agree with you about dogs, too! It's all that unconditional love they give...)

[delphine]

90. I can't stand to hear

the phrase "kerry failed us" but I think it all the time. I sincerely hope there is something more to this that we are not seeing.

I posted on another thread to WRP that perhaps all the bullcrap about "this is not a challenge, bush won fair and square" is just a ruse to make it really difficult for the repukes to disparage what's going on. How can you attack people who just want to make sure peoples' votes are counted, with no personal agenda?

Still what's JFK gonna say if the recount(s) do yield a win in his column?

I don't know that he failed us. But 59 million of us did vote for him. We chose him to lead us, IMHO he could be doing more in that area.

[Sleepless In NY]

91. delphine agree, lets see how he & the dems act on 1/6/2005

if its a repeat performance of 2000 where not one democratic senator will sign, that is all we will need to know about this democratic party. No reason they can't all stand in unison and protest. None. We all know what the republicans would do, scream bloody murder about voter fraud. They would fight back. So now we will see what the party we have been supporting will do, actions speak louder than words.

[housewolf]

93. I don't know, Delphine

I hope that you are right, that Kerry is truly engaged in this fight and that he is doing everything he can under the radar. Nothing would make me happier than to have the Ohio election overturned!


What we've been talking about here tonight, throughout the various threads that have poeple have been posting to, is the commitment to be in it for the long term. To focus our fight for electoral reform and have it not be about Kerry. This is the direction I think we (well, I) need to focus on. Because even if Ohio is overturned, the fight won't be over. Overturning Ohio doesn't make the rest of the electoral process all alright - it's still a rotten system that needs to be fixed. This is where I am experiencing a lack of leadership. And that pretty much feels okay to me, like it is right and appropriate that we, the people, at the grass roots level, take on this fight. It almost has to be done that way, in order to keep it free from partisan maneuvering. So I guess there are two issues here and they are separate but related - one being Kerry and Ohio and the other being general election reform.

Good night to you, thank you for your comments.

:)

[earth mom]

92. There is lots of wisdom here

and too much for me to possibly comment on. But one thing that you posted, housewolf, that resonated with me is that we are leaderless. And is that something we can really do without? Can we pilot this boat without a captain?

I've argued with freepers on another board (not FR) who say that if it's not reported by the MSM it's not news nor is it the truth. That's the kind of logic we're dealing with here. Sure we're all smart enough around here to seek the truth and find answers, but so many people-red or blue-just can't be bothered doing that or who are unwilling or unable to accept that there's even a problem.

I've thought of distributing flyers or talking to people on the street, but deep down I know that if I try and share what I know to be true, people just aren't going to believe me because there is no one standing at the helm that they can look up to. Hell, my dh-who absolutely can't stand *-is skeptical even after I have shown him all the info I've gathered and read him some of the great posts here on DU.

I just can't shake the feeling that unless Kerry or a highly respected someone guides this boat that we are sunk.

But oh, how I would love to be proven wrong!

[meganmonkey]

94. Kick for the morning crowd

The title of this thread is a little deceiving - there are really important points being made here.

[hoosierblue]

95. Thanks again, Will.

You took the words right out of my mouth. Look, if you believe Keith was trying to throw water on the whole election fraud conspiracy, fine. But don't allow him to do what he was trying to do: to shut you up, to get you mad at Kerry (his popularity is up; *'s is down), to forget about all this conspiracy talk. You are allowing his show to silence you.

Well, I say, Hand me my tin foil hat. It's going to be a long, hard ride. :tinfoilhat:

Don't forget. We still have to fight for fair elections, regardless of the supposed outcome of this election. If we don't get fair elections soon, before Repubs fraudulently take over everything, our democracy is over.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

97. Why was THIS particular lawyer quoted?

I find it interesting that Olbermann, etal, found a Kerry lawyer who would basically refute the statement that was made earlier by another Kerry lawyer. Can you shed any light on this?

[lonestarnot]

99. I's LOVE all des people now...even ms.jones the debbie downer of du

Shes can't help her ways.

[selmo7]

100. Honestly

I've felt exasperated at times by all the chomping at the bit reactiveness and impatience that goes on here. Especially when it's obvious people want answers or "the fix" pronto without seeming to be willing to first research the threads and become informed.

Anyway...I concur with your observations and suggested guidance.

[valis]

103. WilliamPitt is right, of course. If the "intelligentsia" does not behave

intelligently, who will?? The people who have literally no time to read?

[McCamy Taylor]

106. They have time to read "America: The Book:"No. 1 Best Seller

[McCamy Taylor]

107. Could "average American" be a myth? Like the "moral majority"?

I mean, there are all kinds of people in America with different backgrounds, hopes, dreams, opinions. We have different ways of solving problems, different ideas of what constitute problems. We inhabit different geographies, work different jobs, have different body physiologies.

One of the very best characteristics of Americans is their rugged individualism which makes them say, like Popeye, "I y'am what I y'am". It is what makes it so very difficult for neo-Nazis to get a firm grip on this country. We dont like goose stepping in time to some one else's tune.

Sure, fear can be used by the far right to manipulate some people, especially the ones who have had troubled childhoods with abuse, loss of a parent etc. But I think there are even more people in the US who can be motivated to act by being made to realize that they are losing their Constitutionally guaranteed rights and freedoms--their right to be rugged individuals. I saw a whole lot of previously self styled apolitical people in DC in January 2001 carrying protest signs for the first time, because their votes had been stolen . This is probably where the 20% is coming from now. Their eyes were opened by Bush v. Gore and all the MSM silence in the world can't close them again.

[livvy]

108. Thoughtful posts.

I enjoyed reading your thoughts and ideas. Many of you have said much that I think is important for us to remember as we pursue our goals. It's hard to be patient, but rash actions aren't usually very productive. Name calling is for frustrated children, and rarely results in agreeable solutions. As a teacher I've learned that you can't reach every child with just one approach. It often takes lots of different approaches before the "light goes on", and for some the light only flickers just a bit, but at least it's a start. Anger is never a good teacher. Lecture glazes eyes, whereas self-discovery, through careful guidance makes the learning stick.
Anyway, thanks everyone for your food for thought. It's threads like this, (and of course the links to info!), that I think I enjoy the most.

[googly]

109. Will , what is a fair minded, logical, level headed person like you

doing here at DU :D ?? Most of us are highly emotional, so it
is good to be brought back to earth once in a while.

[BigBearJohn]

110. My 2¢

I just think that people are getting tired of the rollercoaster ride. I also think some would have preferred the lawyers said nothing, rather than give the other side ammo. It's hard enough to take being "slapped down" by the enemy on a regular basis, but to then have your own party tell you to sit down, shut up and take your medicine is more than most can endure.

All the more reason why we need a thread that is created everyday with that days' GOOD NEWS. We all need good news. When Mr. Pitt posts, everyone seems to calm down (unless, of course, he's teasing us with some juicy tidbit :)). Well, being the more intelligent of the two sides, our side needs to have some of DU's leaders post a daily digest with no bull.. but positively slanted with truly positive news. It's much easier to stay balanced when you have something to balance against. No? I mean, we may be intelligent, but we're human. It's called "slap happy". Thank God for Wil.

[stepnw1f]

111. Thank You Again Will

I am from a working-class family consumed by daily routines. I am of the background where most around me are politically unaware. In fact not many I come in contact with even understand the basics of how a Bill is passed. It's extremely frustrating when trying to explain just the basics to those who are brainwashed daily by Right-Wing rethoric in order to have any civil debate.

So I volunteered to work for Kerry and do what little I can to get Bush out and get a decent man into office... but what gets me even more frustrated are those who mean well, but push the average American away by acusing them of being stupid. While I cannot argue with the sentiment, I am beginning to realise the impact it has on our public image as a MOVEMENT. It's a trap we fall into: the educated "Elitest" trap, we hear from the Right. Even I do it, and am coming clean. Besides, why kick myself in the ass, I have the right-wing there to do it for me;)

Just listen to what the right says without getting mad. You soon realise how uninformed they are. They are lied to daily and it is our only hope to stand upright, face-to-face with the otherside without losing our cool, and call them out when we know they are deliberately lying. We don't have to turn the other cheek either.

While in Bangor Maine before the election, I volunteered for the Kerry Campaign along with my older brother and our significant others. A middle aged woman, walked by me once and then a second time she stopped on the corner where I stood holding a 15ft sign(I think). She said that she supported Bush, yet because of my demeanor in comparison to a Bush volunteer, just across the street from me, she had second thoughts. She said I and my brother's smiles were much more inviting. SHE MEANT IT!

Of course I didn't change her mind alone if at all, but my smiling and waving regardless of the insults thrown to me by a few Bush bots, may have won her vote. That is the power of demeanor.

Anger is a constructive form of energy, when channeled properly. My anger made me get off my ass and get involved politically for the first time in my life.

In fact I watched one of your speeches on CSPAN about 3 years ago, and it was your demeanor that got me interested in channeling my anger in a good way toward a good cause. It was soon after that I realised it was a "LIBERAL" CAUSE.

Thank You Will... NOW GET BACK TO WORK "Liver Lips"!
}(

[loritooker]

112. Will: thank you, But: Do you come from "average Americans"?

I do and what they want is money. Lots of money. And someone to love.