Let's talk theoetically for a few minutes

[WilliamPitt]

Consider a candidate for dog catcher. He's been elected milkman for twenty years and is respected on his delivery route. He decides one day that he wants to finally fulfill his life-long dream and become dog catcher. He files the papers.

This candidate is an interesting study, an intellectual with some serious life experiences. He drove a battle wagon in the Milk Wars back in the day and won some medals. Once he decided the Milk Wars were a waste, he organized against the main milk company. He exposed a massive criminal enterprise that funded terrorists with milk money.

He has a lot going for him, but he also has some flaws. One of his main problems is that he surrounds himself with a lot of advisors, people he has known for years and years, and listens to all of them. The problem here is not all of his advisors are rowing the boat in the same direction. Also, many of these competing voices have circles of power within the group, and weild tremendous influence within the dog catcher campaign.

This leads to confusion in his campaign for dog catcher. People think he doesn't really know what he believes in, when in fact the problem is that he is listening to a lot of conflicting advice and it is pulling him in a lot of different directions. Some might call this judicious, wanting all the data. But in a campaign, it looks bad, because it seems like he's not sure which dogs he wants to go catch and why.

The dog catcher election comes and goes, and there appears to be a lot of questionable crap happening with the vote in some of the districts. The problem of his advisors not rowing together rears its head again. Some of the advisors don't believe in any vote fraud nonsense, and some do. Both are talking to the candidate, and both have power within the group.

Worse, one advisor goes on local access and says "No no, there was no fraud." Everyone gets confused, because that same day a lawyer for the candidate filed papers to find out what happened in the dog catcher election. The people who supported the candidate for dog catcher have their heads explode because it all seems so contradictory, and some react with fury against the candidate.

The final fact remaining is that the candidate for dog catcher is acting through the habits of a lifetime, seeking advice from many voices that disagree. Because the campaign is over, there isn't a truly organized front, so one voice of advice says one thing and another does something else.

But it becomes clear, after a bit, that the candidate for dog catcher is very interested in what happened with the vote, because he sent a lawyer to the local courthouse to file papers on his behalf. The guy who got on local access was an example of the conflicting voices left over from the dog catcher campaign, a powerful person but not representative of the views of the candidate.

Quite a story, yes?

[meganmonkey]

1. How does this relate to the 2004 Election results, William?

This is so obscure I can't even -imagine- what you're referring to!

;)

on edit: btw, what is 'theoetically'?

[WilliamPitt]

2. It's just a story

:)

[Karenca]

3. ::<)) nt

[ClassWarrior]

12. Do we get tucked in and a warm glass of milk too?

:7

NGU.

[seito]

28. Very nice story

:)

[loudsue]

77. This quote needs to be brought to Kerry's attention:

"The problem here is not all of his advisors are rowing the boat in the same direction."

In Kerry-type lingo, that sums up one helluva lot! Good 'un!

:kick::kick::kick:

[LittleClarkie]

116. I've heard stories where Kerry likes to get discussions going and

play devil's advocate. I believe someone said he needs to feel in his gut that they have the right course of action set up. And then he acts.

[AntiFascist]

125. What if the boat threatens to split into two pieces....

and people become too occupied with damage control?

[Darknyte7]

102. And a good one at that friend...

Nice hypo.

[davidgmills]

100. He forgot the part of the story

Where the dogcatcher decides he really wants to prove he got shafted so he paid for a re-exit poll which showed that he won after all.

Then they all lived happily thereafter.

[meganmonkey]

101. The original exit poll results from Mitofsky would be a nice start

I don't know what statistical and legal bearing exit polls would have after the fact. The main reason exit polls are considered accurate is that they are administered to people as they leave the polling place, pretty much guaranteeing that they voted and that they'll remember who they voted for.

[davidgmills]

103. Not quite true

That helps their accuracy. But the downside is a phenomonon called "clustering" which many critics claim diminishes much of the accuracy. That is the big beef. They are not "random" enough. A re-exit poll would avoid the "clustering" problem and would get around the "likely voter" problem of pre-election polling which is random. Yes, people could lie, but are they anymore likely to lie today than 6 weeks ago? And I'm sure most people who voted haven't forgotten who they voted for.

[meganmonkey]

104. That's why they 'adjust' them

but in this election, they outright changed them late in the game and aren't forthcoming with the original (adjusted) numbers.

I could be mistaken but I can't imagine that an exit poll given today would have any legal bearing on the fraud cases.

[davidgmills]

112. Oh, but it definitely does have a huge impact on fraud cases

See my post from earlier today:


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=203024&mesg_id=203456

[Carolab]

108. Sorry this defense is offensive to me

suddenly a pollster with 25 years of experience internationally, and a record of accuracy doesn't know how to properly weight polls and account for clustering and the like and then doesn't know enough not to release such unweighted polls, leaving them up into the early evening hours on election night for all the world to see. Then, with 70% of the results accounted for, this same pollster has a "computer crash" and no backups, so the results are offline for hours, then suddenly they take a complete shift in the opposite direction when 100% of the sample is accounted for, then defying all odds and showing that * won instead of Kerry. Right.

[davidgmills]

113. It offends me too!

I think that theoretically the clustering effect exists but for many reasons I don't think it raises the margin of error anything like Mitofsky has been claiming. For one thing, it gets the MOE's so high that you could not predict victory in any of the swing states. If the MOE's are that high, the networks bought the biggest pig in a poke I've ever seen. Imagine paying millions and millions of dollars and not being able to get an accurate prediction on nay of the swing states. I don't buy their margins of error at all, which are often in the four to five percent range. The recent Ukraine exit polls had MOE's of two percent.

That is why I say re-exit poll Ohio now with MOE's of 1%. No "clustering effect" to blame a bad result on and no "likely voter" problem either.

[buzzard]

4. I think you meant theoretically unless you are talking about the current

theocracy in power. Yes it is an interesting story, some people are careful to the point of appearing not to care when the opposite is true given their past history regarding matters of the heart so to speak.

[Jo March]

9. Yes, buzzard - let's not forget how this earnest milk man has

handled himself in the past. He never rushes into anything without hearing all sides of the issue. In this instance, however, we only want him to hear one side - ours.

We have to drown out the other voices and make sure our Milk Man hears the facts and only the facts, from the very people who support him.

[zann725]

70. Do we even know if JK knows Hoffheimer?

n/t

[Jo March]

5. Well, I say that we should turn on the dog catcher candidate

and devour him like wolves until there is nothing left so we can satisfy our bloodlust.

Or maybe....

just maybe....we can use our voices to drown out all of the other voices around the would-be dog catcher, who is just a tad bit too trusting. We can make sure that all of the voices that this aspiring dog catcher hears are saying the same thing:

fraud

fraud

fraud

Or we can sit around a bitch because some lone atty got some air time and forget all about the other atty who actually matters.

I know which one I'm doing!

[emlev]

106. Not many people think better when they're turned on n/t

[Jo March]

117. I know that I don't. nt

[saracat]

6. I get it Will ! Hoffmeier is the lawyer on local access!

But I still don't find an excuse for lack of coordinated PR. He has a PR person in his senate office . Not just "anyone " should speak for you.

[bear425]

7. The fact that the "dogcatcher's" lawyer filed papers on his behalf...

is the important part of the story. That should be the true focus.

[Sparkly]

8. I'm not sure it's because he's getting conflicting advice

I think there's nothing to gain from yelling "fraud" right now. It'd just get the Repukes moving and vocal and defensive and offensive, and at this point I think it's more valuable to go step by step discovering what actually happened in a way that makes it harder for them to thwart, politically if not legally. If Repukes yell about it, Democrats calmly reply, "Oh we're not saying there was actual fraud, we're not saying there were enough votes to change the election, we just want to ensure public confidence in B*'s victory, as we're sure he wants as well..."

Let the facts come out in sworn statements and discovery without inteference from the shriekmonkeys. Then if it's there, use the evidence to nail them. Kerry could even act surprised -- as in, this was not an effort from the start to change the election results. We weren't even involved at first. Imagine our surprise.

In other words, I don't see what they'd gain in saying "we're sure there was fraud" right now. I do see what they gain in saying "we're not saying there was fraud." When people like Blackwell or companies like Triad run from such basic questions, they dig their own holes.

Just my humble opinion.

[oneold1-4u]

Accountable Votability

The ugliness of the very word fraud is frightening to many who only wish to deny it loudly. If "errors" are great enough in accurate findings of no accountability, for poor voter access, actual vote counts, improper access to voter machines before recount, and even one person or group offered substance for their vote or no vote, or any threats from any government entity against same, each infraction will fall under separate definitions and descriptions, and never be known as "fraud or illegal".

[Sparkly]

65. I am not so sure

If they find machines were available but not sent where they needed to go, or tabulators were hacked, or recounts were thwarted, or ballots were tossed, there's no way they can deny illegality and fraud. It's only a matter of how high up it can go before they find a final scapegoat.

[hoosierblue]

57. Getting the Repubs moving is good

Not because I like hearing their shrill voices, but rather because if the Repubs are getting their panties in a twist then it will definitely become news. The MSM love fights between the parties.

[Sparkly]

64. But why is that good?

They'd just have nutjobs on distorting the facts and claiming the Democrats are out to "steal" the election. I'm not sure why it'd be good to get it in the news right now. Seems better to keep moving toward the truth without the interference of more manufactured mobs, no?

[hoosierblue]

85. It's good because of all the caterwaling

the Repubs will inevitably do will bring attention to this issue. Granted we want to hear other Democrats saying fraud, fraud, fraud, but indifference is the kiss of death. If the Repubs aren't upset about it, the MSM thinks there's no story.

Am I not stating this well?

[Peace Patriot]

76. The trouble with this strategy is that...

...public opinion is needed to get a real Congressional investigation (in the venue of a challenge to the election) and we have a very tight timeline for that. Jan. 6. On that date, Congress is going to legitimize the BushCons AGAIN. Stolen Election #2. And I don't know if we, as a country, can recover from that. The BushCons will be emboldened further, and we may never recover our right to vote.

I think the situation is quite dire. We're witnessing the END of our democracy. It's not a time to be holding your cards close to your chest. That's a LEGAL strategy. But the courts do not have jurisdiction over the election (2000 to the contrary notwithstanding--if Congress had been of a mind to, they could have NOT accepted the Florida Electors, even after the Supreme Court stopped the recount). Congress DOES have jurisdiction--total jurisdiction.

The only thing the Ohio courts can do is to take Bush's Ohio Electors away and award them to Kerry, or decline to do so. I believe that, whatever they do, there will be TWO sets of Ohio Electors going to Congress, one for Bush, one for Kerry (and perhaps for Florida also). Then it will be up to Congress to decide between them--which is how Congressional investigation enters the picture (and probably the independent GAO investigation as well).

And this is where the public--especially Kerry voters (the majority!) comes in. Will the matter be brutally shoved aside? Will it be whitewashed? Will it be significant enough to inform everyone in the country what happened, even if it is not successful in unseating Bush (given BushCon majority in Congress)? Will decent Republicans (if there are any) rebel against the BushCons?

We WANT that drama! We NEED that drama!

Granted, Kerry (and all litigants and vote recounters in Ohio) are up against a political Mafia of the worst kind, and, generally, you don't defeat gangsters solely by publicity (although Robert Kennedy used it brilliantly, i.e. the labor Mafia). Whether you use the press or not, your first consideration must be tough, careful, solid legal work. I understand that, in this situation.

However, this is not just criminal prosecution. This is a fundamental matter of "consent of the people," of our right to vote (which currently we do not have), and of tremendous political and worldwide significance. You cannot exclude the people whom it affects the most--the disenfranchised voters. It is their RIGHT to know what happened, and to participate in a solution. They NEED TO KNOW that Congress is likely going to certify an illegitimate government, so that THEY can have a say in this matter, and decide on their own course(s) of action if that's what happens.

This is going to occur on Jan. 6. I don't know if there is time for any court to act. What if there are no rulings by Jan. 6? I believe the House and Senate members still have the right to challenge (it takes only one from each), and Congress still has to do something about that challenge.

So it is largely a political matter. It's a matter that affects all voters, and Kerry voters in particular. It CANNOT be settled in a court room, or in a back room--while voters remain ignorant of the facts, due to malfeasance by the news media.

It needs to be out front NOW--and not some long term strategy of undermining Bush Inc.--in order to inform and mobilize the public, which has an inherent right to know what's going on, and also has a right to try to influence what happens. And the only way to do this, apparently, is for the candidate to say something. (MSM is Iron Curtaining everybody else, and almost all news stories.)

Kerry doesn't need to say that Bush lost and he won. But he does need to say that the Ohio election is not valid (and likely Florida and a few others). That is the truth just on the violations of the Voting Rights Act alone. The Triad interference with the recount is gravy. It may be more important to a legal case--it is NOT more important to the fundamental issues, the consent of the governed and the right to vote.

(In fact, that IS the truth at this moment. We don't know who won, because of massive irregularities and secret source code, etc.--although all the evidence I've seen convinces me that Kerry won.)

Others can tell the whole truth--and lay out the electronic election theft evidence.

Anyway, that's how I feel about all this. The Rattlesnake must strike--at least a preliminary strike--to inform and mobilize the public.

[Blue Shark]

93. Wow!

...Well Said Patriot!

[SmokingJacket]

97. "Imagine our surprise!" -- yes. Perfect.

You've convinced me.

[Kota]

10. Good story, maybe you should send it to the dog catcher.

[Last Lemming]

11. What looks like anarchy

may, in fact, be strategy--I think--as I've posted elsewhere--the strategy has been to keep this out of the media--even if Kerry, et. al. have look insane by doing it

Very interesting--ever seen a politician doing his best to AVOID publicity? No fraud--is strategy speaking--remember We do have a ringside seat Let the drama begin

PSG

[ginnyinWI]

58. the would-be dog catcher wants to be able to still

be a milkman, if worse comes to worse. Nothing wrong with that--the people need good milk delivery too! Serving the people in some way or other is "life and breath" to this man.

I see the two lawyers as having two different jobs. One is pursuing the fraud with legal actions, and the other is making sure JK's reputation is not damaged, by keeping him above the fray unless there is a clear reason not to.

[Verve]

13. Will,Did you find out if the attorney who spoke is the attorney who filed?

K.O. is saying they are the same.

[WilliamPitt]

14. The attorney who spoke is not the attorney who filed

I know because the document filed has a different name on it.

[Verve]

18. Thanks! I feel much better knowing that. n/t

[merh]

66. Style of the lawsuit filed in Ohio federal court with listing of attorneys

involved in the litigation:

STYLE and docket for the Federal case as of today looks like this:

===========================
U.S. District Court
Southern District of Ohio (Columbus)
CIVIL DOCKET FOR CASE #: 2:04-cv-01139-EAS-TPK

Delaware County Prosecuting Attorney et al v. National Voting Rights
Institute et al (short style)

Assigned to: Edmund A Sargus
Referred to: Terence P Kemp
Cause: 28:1441 Petition for Removal
Date Filed: 11/30/2004
Jury Demand: None
Nature of Suit: 441 Civil Rights: Voting
Jurisdiction: Federal Question

Plaintiff
Delaware County Prosecuting Attorney
David A. Yost, Delaware County Prosecuting Attorney
represented by
David A Yost
Peterson & Yost
140 North Sandusky Street
Delaware, OH 43015
614-369-6008
LEAD ATTORNEY
ATTORNEY TO BE NOTICED

Christopher D Betts
Delaware County Prosecuting Attorney's Office
Assistant Proseucting Attorney
140 North Sandusky Street
3rd Floor
Delaware, OH 43015
740-833-2690
Fax: [phone]
ATTORNEY TO BE NOTICED

Mark David Landes
Isaac Brant Ledman & Teetor - 2
250 E Broad Street
Suite 900
Columbus, OH 43215-3742
614-221-2121
Email: [e-mail]
ATTORNEY TO BE NOTICED

Plaintiff
Delaware County Board of Elections
represented by David A Yost
(See above for address)
LEAD ATTORNEY
ATTORNEY TO BE NOTICED

Christopher D Betts
(See above for address)
ATTORNEY TO BE NOTICED

Mark David Landes
(See above for address)
ATTORNEY TO BE NOTICED

VERSUS

Defendant
National Voting Rights Institute
aka NVRI
represented by
Richard M Kerger
Kerger & Kerger
33 S Michigan Street
Suite 201
Toledo, OH 43602
419-255-5990
Email: [e-mail]
LEAD ATTORNEY
ATTORNEY TO BE NOTICED

Defendant
David Cobb
Green Party Candidate through National Voting Rights Institute,
aka NVRI
represented by Richard M Kerger
(See above for address)
LEAD ATTORNEY
ATTORNEY TO BE NOTICED

Defendant
Michael Badnarik
Libertarian Party Candidate through
National Voting Rights Institute aka NVRI
represented by Richard M Kerger
(See above for address)
LEAD ATTORNEY
ATTORNEY TO BE NOTICED

VERSUS

Intervenor/Defendant
KERRY-EDWARDS 2004 INC
represented by
Donald Joseph McTigue
3886 N High Street
Columbus, OH 43214
614-263-7000
Email: [e-mail]
LEAD ATTORNEY
ATTORNEY TO BE NOTICED

Counter Defendant
J Kenneth Blackwell
represented by Richard Nicholas Coglianese
Ohio Attorney General - 2
30 East Broad Street
17th Floor
Columbus, OH 43215
614-466-2872
Fax: [phone]
Email: [e-mail]
ATTORNEY TO BE NOTICED

Amicus
County Commissioners' Association of Ohio
County Commissioners' Association of Ohio

Amicus
Ohio Association of Election Officials
Ohio Association of Election Officials

Counter-Claimant
National Voting Rights Institute
aka NVRI
represented by Richard M Kerger
(See above for address)
ATTORNEY TO BE NOTICED

Counter-Claimant
David Cobb
Green Party Candidate through
National Voting Rights Institute, aka NVRI
represented by Richard M Kerger
(See above for address)
ATTORNEY TO BE NOTICED

Counter-Claimant
Michael Badnarik
Libertarian Party Candidate through
National Voting Rights Institute aka NVRI
represented by Richard M Kerger
(See above for address)
ATTORNEY TO BE NOTICED

VERSUS

Counter-Defendant
Delaware County Board of Elections

[zann725]

71. Hoffheimer's firm is in Cincinnati. "Tutweiler, et al."

Anybody know anything about them, or their "Party" affiliation?

[roseBudd]

126. Lead attorney Donald McTigue other recent case

http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2004/09/17/loc_gaylawsuit17.html

Opponents trying to keep a constitutional amendment banning gay marriage off the Ohio ballot want a state appeals court to invalidate all signatures gathered in Hamilton and Cuyahoga counties.

snip

A lawsuit filed this week in the state 10th District Court of Appeals argues that all petitions collected in the Cincinnati and Cleveland areas should be tossed out for a variety of reasons, including the fact that they do not contain a required summary of the amendment.

snip

But if the lawsuit is successful, it could eliminate more than 50,000 valid signatures from Hamilton and Cuyahoga counties, significantly increasing the signature deficit.

Donald McTigue, an election law attorney hired by opponents, said the lawsuit also names the secretary of state's office as a defendant in hopes that a ruling in his favor could invalidate signatures in all counties.

[Woo]

26. Seems to me...

That wouldn't make much of a difference -- you're trying to tell me that this guy Hoffheimer as the lead lawyer in Ohio for Kerry/Edwards doesn't know what the hell is going on -- or just doesn't care about what's going on because he believes what he believes, no matter what the guy that he's working for thinks, uh huh, right. -- that's what you're telling me. THAT MAKES ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE...

Now whether it's actually you that isn't making any sense -- or Kerry's lawyers that aren't making any sense, I haven't quite figured it out yet -- but there's nothing comforting in the news that one of Kerry's hands is scratching his head and the other is scratching his ass... and never the two shall meet.

[roseBudd]

127. Hoffeimer was the pre election lawyer, McTique is the new lawyer n/t

[rox63]

20. I'm not Will, but...

I'm pretty sure they are different lawyers. Hoffheimer was the guy who emailed KO. McTigue was the guy who filed the new motions.

[johnnie]

15. Ok

I just have one question. If the dog catcher becomes elected, where would he buy his milk?

[meganmonkey]

23. He'd have someone else buy it for him!

I mean, someone as powerful as the dog catcher can't just walk into a store and go shopping, jeez! ;)

[johnnie]

30. Unless

He wears a super secret costume. He could dress up as Elvis and no one would look twice.

[Heewack]

16. Perhaps

"But it becomes clear, after a bit, that the candidate for dog catcher is very interested in what happened with the vote, because he sent a lawyer to the local courthouse to file papers on his behalf. The guy who got on local access was an example of the conflicting voices left over from the dog catcher campaign, a powerful person but not representative of the views of the candidate."


I think the bigger thing is that people are having a hard time understanding that the two positions are not inconsistent with each other.

He wants to know what happened with the vote to ensure that elections are more transparent in the future, but at the same time does not feel that they were of the intent to be able to accuse fraud.


It's one thing to claim fraud, and it is quite another to prove it in a court of law. Nothing I have seen up to today shows a level of concerted intent that would be necessary for such a case. Going forward without such ammunition would be disasterous.

[loudsue]

80. If you haven't seen anything that "shows a level of concerted intent"....

it's only because you haven't been here long enough to see the evidence. There is a TON of evidence that there was a concerted effort, and if the republican-owned State of Ohio will allow a court trial, AND a judge who will allow ALL the evidence to be submitted, then there is a slam-dunk case for "concerted intent".

:kick::kick:

[SharonRB]

17. Great analogy, Will. n/t

[SariesNightly]

19. The best fiction..

.. always contain some truth in it.

--------------
1.
"But what makes me angry was Kerry and his gang's inability to take advantage of the situation. I may regret saying this later, but fuck it -- they should be lined up and shot." -- Kos

I was a reasonably good sport during the campaign, and I agree now that we should try to avoid the circular firing squad, but there should be some accountability. Losing with a cautious, compromising campaign leaves you with nothing to work with. If Kerry had won that way, we'd still have the Clinton problem -- no real mandate. But he lost, and we take nothing away from the campaign but a reputation for weakness.

2.
According to Newsweek, Kerry, Edwards, and Cleland all wanted to strike back at the Swiftboat smears, but the pros in the campaign stopped them. Democratic Party pros are such a bunch of preshrunk losers. You don't really need to bother with the election if you've got them working for you. (Thanks to Yuval at The Left Coaster.)
---------------

http://seetheforest.blogspot.com/2004_12_01_seetheforest_archive.html#110364861373313455

[roenyc]

25. yup and milk left out too long

can only sour.

[Peace Patriot]

79. They didnt lose. n/t

[bmoney07]

21. good summary that repuke morons can understand!

n/t

[Kansas Wyatt]

45. Repuke Moron Spin:

"What da hell! Weez tried to tell'ya all. Kerry's been a milkin' it for so long now in his elite crowd slurpin up the cream on the top, and now he wants to catch all the rest of us like dogs and keep us chained up on a short leash."

[SeattleRob]

22. Interesting story

I think the man running for dog cather obviously did not properly prepare for the ruthless opponent he was running against. He and his many advisors apparently failed to understand what happened during the 2000 dog catcher election. (The man who lost the 2000 dog catcher election seems to finally understand.)

I think this candidate was a good man, but unfortunately all those years of delivering milk have insulated him and many of his trusted advisors from the reality of what has been happening around him.

How long will we repeat this pattern?

[Junkdrawer]

24. Perhaps the milkman should speak for himself...

Because *some* will say that "seeking advice from many voices that disagree" is one thing, but allowing "many voices" to speak for you is quite another.

[anamandujano]

37. Are we trying to put Hamlet in the White House?

Will his presidency be so conflicted, contradictory and indecisive also? It doesn't look like he'll be capable of making a decision on his own if all the advisors continue to cancel eachother out.

[WilliamPitt]

42. See post 36

[Zan_of_Texas]

40. I once ran for dogcatcher.

Actually, it was a tiny local office, really tiny, but publically elected. I could not BELIEVE how many people magically appeared around me to give me advice. I mean, the power of that office could be contained in a thimble (and there was no pay involved) and suddenly these advisors appeared -- do this, do that.

I cannot imagine the kind of currents and undertow of people who would surround a presidential candidate, some like leaches I'm sure. All with agendas.

We should bear in mind that election fraud could benefit any candidate, any party, if undiscovered, and that it is likely that some in the know folks in the Democratic party are quite aware of election fraud. In fact, they may be SO aware they don't want to lift up any rocks for fear that the upset applecart may spill on them too.

[DemonFighterLives]

27. I get it!

The Dogs have taken over the country.
We're gonna catch them.
Go Dog Catcher Go!:bounce:

[dalloway]

39. WHO LET THE DOGS OUT? n/t

[madinmaryland]

29. I thought the dogcatcher position had been outsourced.

Hence there is no election needed.
:shrug:

[DancingBear]

31. The question, then, is "what does the candidate do now?"

Does our dog-catcher candidate stand up and make his own stand, or does he continue to take advice from the many and let them run free?

(note: this is my attempt to tie into to the dog-catching theme :) ).

I'm curious to see what Candidate Doggy does. I believe with all my being that he knows he has been the victim of foul play. I also believe that, despite the evidence, he was willing to let it slide, and had it not been for the many law-abiding dog owners who voted for him and who showed him the (potential) error of his ways he may have done so.

However, to paraphrase the old saying, there is more than one way to catch a dog, and I'll just wait here with a tank full of gas, a map of Ohio, and a box of Milk-Bones.

Just in case he calls.

Woof woof.

[matcom]

32. dogcatchers don't get a lot of press

so his canundrum goes totally unoticed

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

33. Will, if the milkman wasn't smart enough to think for himself, and

relied that much on his advisors in something that was so Evident,and was Expected to happen, perhaps he shouldn't be dog catcher. That unfortunately leaves us, who are out there searching for our errant pets, left with the dog catcher from Hades.A man who instead of trying to find the owners of the pups he picks up, executes them immediately for the pleasure of it....

[WilliamPitt]

36. Yeah, but flip the script

We have a current dog catcher who only wants to hear from people who are saying things he already agrees with. No dissenting advice or input is desired or accepted. That could be described as "thinking for himself." Me, I like a dog catcher who asks for advice from all quadrants.

[bettyellen]

46. agreed, but said Milkman needs to get his message out now. where

is the coverage on the filing? milkman ought to get on a soapbox if he wants to get a senator behind him next week! Now is the time. Is there any reason to wait?

[anamandujano]

49. see the thread about the coming machine wipe in New Mexico

[bettyellen]

56. in latest breaking? gd? election rsults? i'll go look!

thanks!

[Junkdrawer]

53. Again, "seeking advice before a decision" - Admirable...

"Not making a decision" - Well, let's just say another literate William wrote a play about that a long, long time ago.

[KittyWampus]

55. Advice From All Quadrants? Anyone Advising There're No Stray Dogs

in the NW part of the city, even though they haven't BEEN to that part of the city in years and know nothing about it, are giving worthless advice.

Not all advice is worth listening to.

[lonestarnot]

87. Me tooooo....Ditto 2 heads better than 1;10 better than 2 and

so on!

[dooner]

62. And what about us dogs?

We seem like helpless pawns in all of this political maneuvering. Not surprising that everybody is snapping at each other. Only when us dogs gang up in packs and start putting some fear into the dog catcher/s do we stand a chance. Calling our lawyers is probably not going to save us from doing time in a cage, or worse.
(OK, I know this is taking the dog catcher theme a bit too far...)

I have one big fear. That we're standing back waiting for the court system to work, when we have no evidence that it will. Are we being lulled into legal hopefullness... until it is too late to react with the outrage we all feel? (May already be too late). I'm also bothered by so much attention being placed on the inauguration. At that point, knowing what we know, shouldn't we just go home and start digging our bomb shelters and stocking our canned goods?

Frustrated, sad, mad, worried, and hanging on to hope.

[IndyPriest]

74. Yes, I'd like to know how we dogs get the dog catcher's attention. n/t

[bleever]

34. A few simple points:

1. We know that this theoretical secenario does NOT refer to Jesse Jackson, because we have it on good authority that he could NEVER get elected dogcatcher.

2. What if this milkman, back in the milk wars, was known to have adopted a tactic where instead of charging his truck down the street with his horn blasting, he would turn off his lights and wait quietly for his opposition to expose itself before making his move?

3. Knowing what a thorough and persistent milkman he was, if his lawyer is seeking to look at all the possible evidence of the election, we can assume that if something is there to see, it will be seen, regardless of what one of his assistant milkpersons might speculate about what there is to be found.

4. What if the milkman really is more qualified to be the dogcatcher, in that he knows that the last thing to do is panic the dog and have to chase him on the dogs own turf?

I'm just sayin'.


:)

[mordarlar]

35. The ability to change course with new info...

is a valuable attribute not a fault. I saw this in Kerry. And i see it now. This is what i wanted from President Kerry.

Wish/wash, flip/flop, are all titles that one side used to define the man. I prefer these any day to inflexible, unmoving and stay the course. I am personally looking forward to the "Mother of all flip flops".

Kerry is a brilliant and thoughtful man. I believe he will do what we all are trying to do. Take all the info available, sort through it and let the truth float to the top. I trust him. I understand him.

[Zan_of_Texas]

43. Flip-flop, ironically, actually refers to what the votes do --

also known as vote-hopping or the jumping screen -- a voter tries to vote for Kerry and the vote flip-flops to Bush.

Think of that next time you hear Kerry referred to as "flip-flop".

[mordarlar]

54. Good point. : ) n/t

[unblock]

38. nice analogy! or is it a metaphor? simile?

[WilliamPitt]

41. Pure fiction

:)

[bettyellen]

47. a parable? LOL!

[Bill Bored]

44. Actions Speak Louder Than Words n/t

[bettyellen]

52. but it feels like a tree fell in the forest yesterday....

just trying to get in metaphor mode here.

[Fly by night]

48. Then it's time to muzzle the unauthorized local access "spokesman"

Both dog-catchers and Senators know how to do that. And the sooner the better, before the unauthorized (non)"spokesman" give us all WTF rabies.

It's also time to ask why Keith Olbermann keeps giving voice to "unauthorized spokesmen" and to Florida Repuke congressmen who can't seem to get in front of a microphone themselves to answer questions. Keith is appearing more goat-like every day to me. (And before any KO female fawners flame me, remember that Ted Bundy was handsome also.)

This should be my 100th DU post. Time to go eat something (besides peanut butter) to celebrate. I'm glad to be in the company of so many democratic warriors on DU.

[VTGold]

50. I hope this guy gets to "catch my dog" - the other guy will detain....

...my puppy without probable cause - read through his private jingly tags - send him to Gitmo - stick ciggies in his floppy ears....

Oh the dog-anity!

[VTGold]

51. We should come up with a name for this "dog catcher" and use that... n/t

[Imajika]

59. The problem is...

..the candidate for dog catcher, whom lost the election, could come out and quite clearly tell his supporters that "I lost the election, accept the results and wish to plan for the future rather than live in the past", and a certain percentage of his supporters will gather on Internet forums and convince themselves that the candidate for dog catcher really meant something else entirely, was saying things in public to fool the media and opposition, didn't actually mean what he said when he conceded, and had a plan in place that was so secret that none of his supporters could be allowed to know about it. Then the lead attorney for the candidate could come out and essentially repeat what the losing candidate for dog catcher said - and further add that there was no massive election fraud conspiracy, and the same people would continue to delude themselves by dreaming up all sorts of fantastic notions about how the lawyer wasn't really acting on the candidate's behalf even though he represents him....

Geeze, what does Kerry have to do to make it any more plain? He conceded! He's done. He doesn't believe Bush won because of some massive vote fraud conspiracy - if Kerry did believe this stuff he would be out screaming about it. I am beginning to think Kerry could carry a big neon sign around Boston with the words "I lost, There is no fraud conspiracy, It's over", and still people here would be inventing theories about how that too is all part of some secret strategy.

Imajika

[dooner]

63. I fear you are correct. n/t

[Peace Patriot]

83. Imajika: Then why did Kerry file in pursuit of evidence and...

depositions? I'm afraid this doesn't square with your neon sign thing.

[zapped 1]

60. dog catcher loses...

...because his opponent is percieved to be more decisive, even when his decisions are proven wrong. And more people help him steal the election.

[anaxarchos]

61. This story has been done before...

It was even made into a movie. It was called The Candidate and it starred Robert Redford. It was supposed to be about Jerry Brown but if the shoe fits...

Come to think of it, this story has been done many times.

The verdict is usually decided by what was at stake.

[EFerrari]

67. Anybody remember what happened to John Alden? n/t

[anaxarchos]

68. John Alden of Mayflower fame? n/t

[EFerrari]

94. : ) "Speak for yourself, John Alden." - Priscilla

[anaxarchos]

98. Sadly, Another 'theoretical' story....

http://imaginemaine.com/Features/Archives/Cushnoc.html

"Miles Standish and John Alden, of course, have their own charming little piece of mythology and connection to Maine thanks to poet Henry Wadsworth Longfellow. "The Courtship of Miles Standish", Longfellow's classic poem, is totally fictional. John Alden did not propose to Pricilla Mullins in Miles Standish's behalf; Pricilla did not encourage Alden to speak for himself. The only kernel of truth in the story is that John and Pricilla married. Furthermore, neither Standish nor Alden were Pilgrims although both would figure large in the struggles of the little colony. Standish was hired military help. Alden was a cooper who hired himself out on the Mayflower and decided to stay on at Plymouth. "

[EFerrari]

99. but/and, you knew the story : ) n/t

[zann725]

69. Did Hoffheimer, or the firm he works for contribute to Bush/Cheney

...or in any way represent/consult B/C and/or Blackwell? Just seems odd that the very day that Kerry's REAL lawyers file for expedited discovery, that a NEW lawyer suddenly appears to say...'Sorry folks, move on.' This seems too much of a coincidence. And more like the kind of 'scam' Kkkarl-boy would set up.

Also, has anyone spoken DIRECTLY to Kerry's office to see if they even KNOW Hoffheimer (and/or his firm)?

[dogindia]

72. yes.

[smartvoter]

73. One question: Is the dog catcher himself a mute? nt

[valis]

75. This is so inspirational!! Will, where do you get these gems?

We are so lucky to have you here!

[understandinglife]

78. Good story Will: a few nuances you and others may want to consider...

Since I have no clue what Senator Kerry is thinking or doing today, or has been doing since 2 Nov 2004, my 'humility filter' enables me to be cautious in my assessment of 'apparent' inaction, 'apparent' confusion, 'apparent' confusion, 'apparent' ..... -- because that's all it is, 'apparent.'

With that disclaimer, I'll offer a few comments on the 'dog catcher' allegory.

I think the candidate for dog catcher might be sophisticated enough to know that if he (or anyone, ever again) is going to be 'elected' that he must do his job before he has any hope of legitimately being chosen for it.

I think the candidate for dog catcher knows that a pack of rabid dogs are on the loose and the town folk are hiding and fretting and if he doesn't catch and incarcerate those dogs the town folk are never going to be able to go to the polling place and vote without fear and cynicism.

I also think the dog catcher knows that distractions and confusion are useful because while one rabid dog runs in one direction another rabid dog is running in another direction rather than having them all focus on one victim. (the dog catcher knows what 'gambit' means)

I think the candidate for dog catcher knows that he's going to need a large, encompassing trap and that he's going to want the most rabid dog of the pack well inside that trap before he slams it shut. (ask yourself who's got the gavel in a certain venue on 6 Jan 2005)

And, he's going to want the whole world watching when that happens (suspect that cspan will have it's biggest viewer day in history; and the reruns; lordie, lordie!!)

Since I do have a clue how compromised the 2004 presidential election process is, I imagine that Senator Kerry and Edwards have vastly more than 'a clue.' I think they both realize that to be 'dog catcher' the way they would want the position means that they would have to know they were fairly elected. Thus, I suspect that once the rabid dogs are caged (how ironic for those familiar with that rovianism), the 'acting' dog catcher will insist upon a re-vote rather than accept a position, albeit deserved, he knows is disgustingly invalid.

Peace.

"When Did Bush Know?"

[Peace Patriot]

88. But...

"And, he's going to want the whole world watching when that happens (suspect that cspan will have it's biggest viewer day in history; and the reruns; lordie, lordie!!)"--understandinglife

If the dogcatcher doesn't bark something soon (i.e., at the least that Ohio election was invalid due to massive suppression of minority votes in gross violation of the Voting Rights Act), he'll be lucky to have DUers watching, and CSPAN covering it. This is true of Jan. 6 and any immediate investigation, and even more true after Jan. 20, when the only way to get rid of Bush will be to prove that HE was the hacker or authorized the hacking, when we know that, 1) he can't even read let alone hack; and 2) as 9/11 and so many other events have shown, he is not in the decision loop.)

A couple of woofs or a strategic howl will do it. It doesn't take much to get the neighborhood barking.

[understandinglife]

90. But....

"A couple of woofs or a strategic howl will do it. It doesn't take much to get the neighborhood barking."

Remember, we're talking about the dog catcher 'candidate'; not the rabid dogs who'd be doing the barking. A few of those rabid, albeit smaller dogs are already barking -- Blackwell and Feeney. Another rabid, though smallish pack of dogs are howling up in WA State.

One can expect quite a bit more howling from some of the bigger dogs when Congresspersons Conyers and Waters announce just how many HR and Senators are going to join the challenge.

And, please note that my derivation of the allegory (consistent with all the correspondence I've sent to Senator Kerry, and others, by the way) is that NO ONE CAN BE ELECTED 'dog catcher' in the current 2004 national dog catcher election process because:

1. large numbers of citizens were systematically suppressed in their efforts to vote;

2. 30%+ of the voters have no trusted mechanism for verifying that the way the voted is how their vote was counted;

and, 3. all kinds of acts have been committed since 2 Nov 2004 that have further compromised any 'trust' any reasonable person might have in the 'will of the voter.'

Thus, the lesson from my derivation of the allegory is -- catch the rabid dogs -- a la 'acting dog catcher'.

REVOTE.

Peace.

[Cheswick2.0]

81. so in other words... he got jerked around a lot and failed to come up

with a convincing argument on how to catch the dogs and people felt he couldn't do that job he was seeking.

[L. Coyote]

82. All this is really good for the damn dogs. Blame the dogs. n/t

[nashville_brook]

84. dog catcher needs assertivness training.

we all have a committee of voices (thoughts and desires) pulling us in different directions. if we conducted our daily lives the way kerry has conducted his post-campaign campaign, then we'd never leave the house.

it's his responsibility to get all these ducks in a row and present a public image that keeps his constituency together. that's what being a leader is all about. it's hard work. :)

i don't fault him for having lots of advisors -- i don't even FAULT him for his silence how that is affecting his supporters and all the people who have been robbed of their vote.

but the fact is we are twisting in the wind. all these sky-is-falling threads are evidence of feelings of abandonment. it's not our fault for feeling abandoned.

as Umar bin Hassan said on Be Bop or Be Dead, the song Malcolm, "i have the flag -- it has not touched the ground."

(we would do well to also listen to the first track on this disc -- Niggers Are Scared Of Revolution. -- pardon the unpolitically correct title)

http://www.golyr.de/Last+Poets/songtext/133447_Niggaz+Are+Scared+of+Revolution.htm

point is -- besides you, William Pitt -- we are without wind and compass, floating around with the survival instinct to make landfall and no idea how we are going to get there. it's like we are in a burning theater and with people saying keep your seats.

is it really asking too much for kerry or someone from kerry's camp to grow some balls?

[lonestarnot]

86. De Dawg is on de case...bowwowser!

[Garbo 2004]

89. The irony is that the candidate ran in part on his leadership skills.

Being able to take in information then making a decision and carrying it through. When problems arose in the campaign, advisors were blamed or they blamed each other. But who was the captain of the campaign? Who was the leader? During the war did he run his battle wagon by committee?

Now after the campaign, what the advisors say doesn't matter much to me frankly.

[Eloriel]

95. My thoughts exactly -- and even moreso,

where's that leadership NOW? Fuhgeddaboudit. Was either never much to begin with, or dissipated over the years 'cause you fer darn shure can't find any NOW.

[cindyw]

91. Isn't it amazing how analogies can make complicated, but true stories,

more like the drama of real life than the conspiracy theory assumed. The complicated story is usually the true one.

[spooked]

92. Then I would believe that Karl Rove infiltrated the Kerry Camp

which makes perfect sense...


They must have realized that when the election fraud came to light they would need someone with access to Kerry's ear poo-pooing the idea.

[JD Lau]

96. WRPitt: That's pretty much the view as I see it, as far as

the person who ran for dogcatcher. Much of the tone of the responding community
is - to me - very abrasive. Raucous. Rude. And mostly Rong.

But who cares in these times, when if ya aint red, then you can yell all you want and it does just nothin'. Like screaming in the wind.

I would like to express my admiration and my thanks for your clarity of thought and mind, and for your tone throughout.

Keep the faith, and keep up the good work. We don't have many solid reporting folk on this side of the fence.

Best to you in the new year. Holding out to see what might happen in January!

JD Lau

[Donailin]

105. pretty much what Fineman said last night on KO,

that is, that the guy who filed the papers is the guy who speaks with authority since he had the authority to file from kerry. The other guy sounding all contradictory was a no-one, really.

In any case, I've realized weeks if not months ago that Kerry is a politician. He's sitting there looking at Edwards out of a job. He's sitting there weighing his options; "if I go with this fraud thing, who will I alienate? Who's support will I gain? What will Clinton say? (Hillary that is, who has designs on the WH also). What will Kennedy say?" etc etc It's very hard to take a huge risk that involves questioning the legitimacy of a sitting president aftet the brutal campaign that the country went through, without wondering if you will be laughed out of the senate, if not the capitol altogether. Now, I sit here and think, fuck that! The issue is bigger than one single man and his bid for the highest office in the land,the issue is the democracy of the United States of America and what sort of future a fascist state would mean to my kids and the rest of the planet, but then, I don't have a self-consciousness problem, because, well, I'm a nobody, I don't care what the fuck people think of me. I just care about the right thing and the truth.

It's different in politics because as much as we would like to believe, there is no politician beyond your local city council that maintains the altruism they may have before their access to real power. It becomes very much about "what will people think" because that's who keeps you in power in the first place (for the most part, obviously)

What I evision is this: Kerry losing that self-consciousness inadvertyantly the more the republicans cover-up, stifle, manipulate, obfuscate, and obstruct justice -- that's when you start forgetting yourself because your outrage and indignation at injustice takes over.

my two cents.

[truthpusher]

107. ....r......

[coreystone]

109. The milkman's dilemma!

The milkman seems to have a confusion of which advisers will be giving the best advice. As a milkman, he has not had to confront the more rigorous task of being elected as the dogcatcher. To be elected dogcatcher, the strategy of running the campaign is much more involved and complicated. The milkman wants to trust and accept advice from all of his advising team, but, there are conflicting views as to what the course should be. The milkman is being lead into too many directions, and not able to discern which trusted advisers are giving the best advice. The milkman suffers from a certain degree of cognitive dissonance, as he would like to trust them all. Since he has been a very diligent milkman, with many years of experience, which have earned him a great deal of respect, he has built upon those many years, for those who he would trust to give him good advice. But, running for dogcatcher is so much different that running for milkman. The milkman, as candidate for dogcatcher needs to delineate between those who giving him advice. In his leadership role, he needs to decide what is good advice and bad advice, if he is to aspire to the leadership responsibilities of dogcatcher in confronting his campaign decisions. If, it is confusing for the milkman to ascertain which advisers are serving his best interests in running for dogcatcher, then, perhaps he may have a problem ascertaining those advisers in the dogcatcher’s department who would give the prospective dogcatcher his best advise in how to perform his dogcatchers job.

Now, the milkman decides that there may be a question regarding the accuracy of the vote for dogcatcher. One of his advisers contradicts the advise which the milkman has accepted from other advisers regarding a possible claim of legitimacy in the voting process for dogcatcher. Also, the milkman still is a milkman. If he assertively questions the process which disallowed him to be elected as dogcatcher, then his credibility as a respected milkman may also be questioned, if the votes for dogcatcher fail to make a difference in the election.

From what I heard about the dogcatcher election, the milkman needs to discontinue the façade of his concerns in remaining to be a respected milkman, and make some difficult off the fence decisions. The milkman needs to understand that every vote for him should be counted; not just for his bid for dogcatcher, but, for every election for dogcatcher, milkman, or any other office.

[Niche]

110. I like the Milk Man that went against the Milk Company...

and PUT IT OUT OF BUSINESS! A Dog Catcher catches Dogs right?

[coreystone]

111. "While My Guitar Gently Weeps" by George Harrison

I look at you all see the love there that’s sleeping
While my guitar gently weeps
I look at the floor and I see it needs sweeping
Still my guitar gently weeps
I don’t know why nobody told you how to unfold your love
I don’t know how someone controlled you
They bought and sold you.

I look at the world and I notice it’s turning
While my guitar gently weeps
With every mistake we must surely be learning
Still my guitar gently weeps
I don’t know how you were diverted
You were perverted too
I don’t know how you were inverted
No one alerted you.

I look at you all see the love there that’s sleeping
While my guitar gently weeps
Look at you all . . .
Still my guitar gently weeps.

[Wilms]

114. Good One! "Isn't It a Pity" has been playing in my head.

"And because of all their tears, there eyes can't hope to see..."

--George Harrisson

[sharman]

115. Will, can you answer a question for me?

I'm not the only person to think of this:

Why doesn't someone canvas a few questionable precincts, if only to give us all a reality check? We have all the names and numbers of registered voters, the gazillion GOTV groups weren't shy about calling them repeatedly before the election.

Just freakin' ask who they voted for. You might not get enough of a response to be helpful, and you couldn't know for sure if people were being truthful.

But. It would go a long way, for my own peace of mind, to know someone took this step.

[Debbie13]

121. I think this is a great point. I thought about that, too.

Why not run a poll and check some names against who they voted for?

[WilliamPitt]

123. "you couldn't know for sure if people were being truthful"

Unfortunately, this good idea is DOA because of that one point.

[txindy]

118. Pity about the other dog catcher candidate

His serious case of rabies is making him chase after all of the squirrels and birds, screaming, "Mad dog! Mad dog!" It's hard to pay attention to reality under those circumstances. Especially with all of his fleas b*tch-slapping people and intimidating the press. Fearsome fleas, apparently. Ugly, anyway. Gutless wonders, the press. Kowtowing to fleas.

Anyone got any bug spray handy?

;)

[NVMojo]

119. I'm following you, Will...we are too spoiled sometimes ...

...things worth fighting for don't come easy ....and I still go back to the fact that this man, John Kerry, had his military service in Viet Nam smeared across the nation by pigs who never served at all ...my own father, a Viet Nam vet, has never been subjected to this but if he was, I wouldn't be whining the minute he didn't act the way I wanted him to act...this is a war we are in over honesty and integrity in America and a war over the soul of America that Bush and his minions are trying to do their best to kill ...we need to stop turning against each other, we still share the common enemy here ...and none of us really has all the answers at this point ...they didn't steal our country overnight ....it was decades of plotting and scheming ...

[m.standridge]

120. most of the people who attacked Kerry's 'Nam record

were Vietnam veterans.
Again, what we need is not words.
We need NUMBERS.
Numbers.

[LittleClarkie]

128. But the people giving them a political voice

and making sure their dishonorable message got out there was the media.

And I have a sense that many in the vets for truth were after Kerry for what he did after. But the main spokesmen, O'Neill and such, decided to go after Kerry's record as well. It is said that some of the people lining up to go after Kerry's post-war activities dropped out when they found out that the group's leaders wanted to go after the record.

Not to mention that alot of the people defending Kerry were Nam vets too. Why did they not seem to have an equal voice in August. Were they not presented, or were they just not in demand.

I'm glad I met people like Wasser at a rally with Max Cleland and also and a vet of Dewey I and III, John Lindquist, but I wish these people would have had a bigger voice. There was a vet tour mid August around here, but the venue and the turnout wasn't large.

[TankLV]

132. And to a man never were within a mile or year of Kerry.

They either didn't serve WITH him and thus did not personally know him, or they served in a completely different time period, and didn't know him or what he did/din not do.

Which makes these only veterans in name only - they are the worst kind of lying scum. THEY ARE ALL LIARS.

[LittleClarkie]

136. Except for Steve "Gotta kill me some gooks" Gardner

The asshat.

The only crew member to turn on Kerry.

[TankLV]

137. Who, I believe withdrew his statements once he found out what they were

used for.

Maybe I'm thinking of someone else?

[LittleClarkie]

139. Elliot, I think

Steve Gardner the "whistleblower" went home a happy little hatemonger for saving us from that ol' sKerry. Sadly (sniff) he'd lost his job in the ordeal.

Elliot, I think, tried to recant, and then unrecanted his affidavit.

[Skwmom]

122. It's called leadership.

Something your candidate for dog catcher is failing to demonstrate.

[IStriker]

124. Yes, your candidate for dog catcher is a failure...

who couldn't exert enough leadership in his own campaign to put out a coherent message before or after the election. Either a candidate who desires to be loved by everyone above all else (including winning) or just a crappy candidate that doesn't believe in anything so he gives out mixed messages.

[LittleClarkie]

129. Yes, we don't need mixed messages, cause you know

it's hard work.

If he desired to be loved, he sure ain't makin' it here, is he? To right for the left, to left for the right. Too many ideas presented at once. A candidate who doesn't really get into campaigning until the last couple months, who generally finishs fast and then wins, which if the exit polls are too be believed he indeed did.

So I guess you're not one of the fraud believers if you think Kerry lost, eh?

I don't think one can be both: either Kerry ran a flawed campaign (and who doesn't) but still won, or he ran a lousy campaign against someone who ran an equally lousy campaign, lost his shirt, and we're surrounded by idiots in this country.

He believed in too many things if anything, and so gave out mixed messages. His world view is complex, and not suseptible to 30 second sound bites. Our candidate was something of a professor in the way he would sometimes think out loud. I also agree with the person who said that he was sometimes politically tone-deaf.

But in none of that do I see someone trying to be loved at all costs. God knows, he's far from that. Wouldn't more people love him then?

I see someone trying to do the right thing by as many people as possible means looking at a problem from every angle, gathering as much info as possible.

[IStriker]

131. I see someone who couldn't articulate a coherent message...

because his reason for running for President was that he wanted to be President, not that he had a vision to lead the country. He was, therefore, compelled to not take a stand on anything or at least not stick to it, because it might cost him someone's vote.

I don't know if there was fraud in the election. I've heard lots of allegations, but I've yet to see any proof. I remain open to anyone who has proof and presents it.

[TankLV]

133. Let's face it - ABB wasn't a good enough reason to vote FOR him.

Voting AGAINST the other guy is not sufficient.

I will never make that mistake again.

[LittleClarkie]

134. Good point. Please don't. The negativity didn't help

It almost sounds like some of us are saying what the Republicans were saying, that Kerry would say anything or do anything just to get in power.

Sad to hear my side spouting Republican talking points.

I know Kerry was better than that, but if you didn't, I'd rather y'all had just voted Green or Nader. It really is better to be an actual supporter, otherwise all you can do is give reasons to vote against, not for. Never again try to support a candidate you don't support.

Dole could tell you that doesn't to work. Doesn't work any better for a Dem than a Repub.

Kerry had some good ideas, and whether he was good at articulating it or not, he wanted to help. He wanted to get this country away from the inept hands of George Bush as much as anyone. And some might say he did it too.

[IStriker]

135. I thought Kerry was such a flawed candidate...

plus I was angry that my party deep-sixed Dean who was my candidate, that I wanted to vote for Nader which would have been my first non-Democrat vote for President since I first voted in 1964. I'm from PA and the courts refused to allow Nader on the ballot. We were told we could still write him in, but with touch screens, this is not a matter of putting a sticker on your hand and placing it in the correct spot on the paper ballot. Anyway, I ended up voting for Kerry and "trading" my vote for Nader with somebody from Utah through that vote swap internet thing. Made me feel better because I was just another ABB too. I'm afraid a lot of us were just that and it might be nothing but our lack of enthusiasm that has Bush back in there again.

[TankLV]

138. SOME good ideas, and almost ANYONE would have been better than bunkerboy.

But his Iraq statements that he would not change his vote even knowing what we all do now about the lies, and his constant "I'll hunt them down and kill them, just do it better" mentality about the war, his voting FOR and then defending his vote FOR that goddamned socalled "patriot act" - and his willingness to let the states make discrimination against GBLT persons the law, just not do it on the federal level, instead of condemning ANY AND ALL proposals to descriminate.

I have a litany of things I closed my eyes to, held my nose, and overlooked.

The lessor of 2 bad choices is still a bad choice.

[maryallen]

130. The "Candidate" needs to throw off ALL advisors and ...

SOLO this mother ... or he'll never be a successful candidate.

What this country needs is a politician who is willing to raise hell; one who's willing to expose that the "emperor has no clothes"; and someone willing to yell from the rooftops that he was ROBBED, that the vote was RIGGGED!

Lay it on the table. Talk to the American people like a Dutch uncle, like FDR's "fireside chats."

Until we get a politician that will do this, nothing will change.