Guys, here's the problem . . . .

[hijinx87]

in our attempt to prove the fraud in 2004, we may utterly destroy the public confidence in elections in general.

this is not a good thing, since we will need that voter confidence later on.

perhaps it's best to lose this battle, but win the war?

[NMDemDist2]

1. wrong, sorry

the fight is to clean up the machines so fraud can't happen again

see?

[hijinx87]

15. no, the goal should be to win by a fraud-proof margin.

[NMDemDist2]

18. bullshit, there's no such animal as "fraud proof"

what crap are you trying to start?

this fraud fight isn't about winning, it's about democracy, voter rights and transparency

[FogerRox]

66. Kerry Won by 10% to 11% they scrubbed like 12 to 15 million votes

WTF do you think happened? HUH?

AZDemDist6 - Iam with you--all the way. we may never get another chance--to vote and have it counted---this is going to be a hell of a battle--up hill all the way just to get these computers straightened out by the time I work in a congressiopnal race in 2006.
MFin CS ing SOB

[proudbluestater]

52. There is no "fraud proof margin" when you deal with Rethugs

Did you catch what happened? As the exit polls looked bad, suddenly the computers went down in Mitofsky's place for an hour or so and suddenly the NEW exit polls matched the VOTE!

The Rethugs in their little bunker ADJUST the vote according to the exit polls. Oh, we're 2 million short? So, we'll fix it so we come out 1 million ahead. That way it won't look suspicious.

[mousie]

39. that's right

seemed like soooo many people were suspicious even before the election anyway. What we have to do is change the process NOW, and RESTORE FAITH in our election process. Verifiable voting!! There's no going back anymore, not after this one.

[unblock]

2. valid point, but public indifference to election theft is much worse.

[hijinx87]

16. and it has been with us since the founders . . . .

so we have to deal with it.

[bitchkitty]

53. Deal with it how?

By letting them get away with it? That's about the silliest thing I ever heard. It's like saying, "Murder has been around since Cain killed Abel - nothing we can do, that's the way it is. So we should just accept it."

[OKthatsIT]

3. duh

rethink that one

[KaliTracy]

4. we cannot stop. we will never gain the momentum we have

at this point in time according to MSM (KO) only 19-20% believe there was something weird going on.

Personnally, I think the number is higher than that -- but in any case -- this isn't about Kerry -- it's about preserving what shred of Democracy we have left.

If we give up -- we give up everything. We NEED people to question the process so that the process can change.

From Chaos FORM

[FogerRox]

68. yeah but thats 20 out of 28 Kerry voters think it was stolen

[Straight Shooter]

5. Oh, of course *slaps forehead* now, why didn't we think of that

Oh, Jeebers, where's the Raid.

[New Earth]

6. WE may utterly destroy the public confidence in elections?

i'm sorry but, WE DIDN'T COMMIT THE FRAUD.

[hijinx87]

19. it turns out that "FRAUD" is a subjective term. And . . .

the MSM ain't got it, and the inauguration is just a few days away. WE need to get with the program.

[IndyPriest]

48. Election fraud is NOT a subjective term.

It's defined in the code. Whether the MSM or anyone else actually helps to expose it or PROSECUTE it is another matter. But, hijinx, have you really thought that election fraud was subjective? That it was all just someone's perhaps flaky opinion?

[FogerRox]

69. ahh like maybe 3 weeks away

[Sparkly]

73. What's "the program?" n/t

[keepthemhonest]

63. exactly Faye

* administration is the one who committed the fraud and so they are the ones who would be making people lose faith in our election system, not us.

[JaneDoughnut]

7. I'm with AZDem

We CANNOT let this issue slide. The inevitable consequences of a party-owned election system are MUCH WORSE than the hypothetical consequences of voter disillusionment.

[BernieBear]

8. THIS IS SUCH BULLSHIT = A BUNCH OF CRAP

Fraud is fraud and There Was Fraud. Prosecute it.

[hijinx87]

25. prosecution requires evidence + evidence + evidence + EVIDENCE

and we don't have it. And since the 7th is a suddenly significant date, I don't reckon that we could POSSIBLY amass the evidence necessary to rise to a criminal charge.

[NMDemDist2]

27. you are missing the point entirely, it's not about stopping the

inauguration

it's about cleaning up the vapor votes

[Mister Ed]

9. That's what I thought in 2000. Now look where we are. n/t

[Straight Shooter]

34. Mister Ed, people yackety-yak a streak and waste the time of day

Welcome to DU :hi:

[Cobalt Violet]

10. The public shouldn't have confidence in elections.

They should wake up and realize that they are only going through the motions.

Then maybe they can insist on a change.

[helderheid]

11. How do you win the war

without exposing fraud? This is a serious question. I'm completely baffled. As I see it, we need voter confidence destroyed and the public to get involved in making sure we don't continue privatized elections.

[hijinx87]

22. I'm not sure that I WANT to win this war . . .

which makes fraud another matter entirely.

[helderheid]

40. I guess I should ask

Which war are we referring to? The 2nd stolen election or ALL stolen elections? I'm more concerned about the fact that if fraud isn't exposed and things are cleaned up, I will never bother to vote again because now I KNOW my vote won't count, not just suspect it didn't.

edited because I forgot to type a "d" in fraud. Silly me.

[SueZhope]

12. I think the problem is

that the public has to much confidence
in a broken system.

If the media reported the truth about the system then perhaps the public would rise up and no longer tolerate this kind of JOKE of a system.

Thankfully there are many who are trying to bring the truth to the people.

[drthais]

13. are you out of your freakin' mind?

what kind of a suggestion is THAT!?

besides, I have news
the public confidence in the elction process
is already blown to hell

I am not alone, you know
or didn't you notice?

[hijinx87]

21. probably. n/t

[fearnobush]

14. No, we need to "utterly destroy the public confidence in elections"

In order to prevent it from EVER occuring AGAIN!!! Our whole electoral system is fucked. Ever wonder why 50% don't vote!! it's because they have no confedence. If we make it real and honest and fair we will truly win.

[puddycat]

17. Truth may hurt initially but is always best in the long run. n/t

[greatscott15]

28. NOT Convinced of Major Fraud

I'm sorry, and many here will not agree. But I do not think fraud was the reason Kerry lost. I have read thousands of posts here over the last few weeks. Rode the roller coaster of hope up and down.

Whatever fraud happened was probably done by both the dems and repukes. I don't think our side was innocent either from what I have seen. My guess is the fraud (what relatively little there was) was done by both sides, and probably offset each other.

I know many here don't want to hear it, but Bush won because he truly got more actual votes IMO. I don't like it. But Bush won and I want to focus on the future. If we don't we will continue to loose elections I am afraid, very afraid.

We have lost a lot of power and control over the last 25 years. Go back to when Reagan came into office in 1981. We had majorities in just about every area of national , state, and local government. Now look where we are. This major shift of power didn't happen because the repukes got better at election fraud than we did (remember Kennedy in IL in 1960). It's because, we have not had the message that many Americans wanted. We have not had good candidates, with the exception of Clinton. The media is NOT conservative (exception Fox), so we cannot blame them. I see folks on here saying CNN is conservative! GET REAL! Come on folks. We gotta get to the root cause of the problem if we want to fix it.

Sorry, this is not what many want to here. Trash me if you will, like many did Zell Miller. I don't agree with all his positions, but his message was on target. We gotta change some things, or we will continue to be primarily a minority party for many more years.

Let's start focusing on 2006 and 2008. We got a good chance of winning in 2008 with Hillary if we all get our act together.

[puddycat]

43. no paper trail and vote machines are made by Bushistas= FRAUD

I do believe there was massive voter fraud.

[New Earth]

44. you mean election fraud

the voters didn't commit the crimes :)

[puddycat]

65. election fraud is a better word but I'm sure people understood N/T

[Raksha]

47. Oh really?

Re >>Whatever fraud happened was probably done by both the dems and repukes. I don't think our side was innocent either from what I have seen. My guess is the fraud (what relatively little there was) was done by both sides, and probably offset each other.<<

And what would you say the percentages were...about 5% Dem fraud to 95% Repuke fraud, maybe? That's what I'd say anyway. Your "reasoning" sounds suspiciously like the kind of phony "equivalance" the corporate media indulged in during the campaign.

[greatscott15]

56. Both Sides Guilty

I am sorry, but I think both sides were involved in some "monkey business". How much and percentage wise, we'll never know. But my guess the fraud just about evens out for both sides. I have seen just as many stories about fraud in democractic areas as republican areas. Both sides are claiming the other is committing fraud.


Again, as long as we focus on the "wrong issue", we will continue to loose elections. I still do not believe the fraud cost us the election.

It is hard to beat a sitting president anytime, especially during war. Kerry was frankly not a great candidate. We all wanted Bush out so bad, out "vision" got clouded.

Everyone here can disagree, but I think we must fact some cold hard reality. If not, we will continue this downward spiral.

[SharonRB]

59. Surely you jest...

I like Hillary, but no way can she win. She's way too divisive and I don't think she'll make it past the primaries -- people love her or hate her. For instance, my husband said he might have to vote Republican next time if she winds up running -- and he's never voted for a Repub in his life. She's not the answer. Believe me, I don't know who is, but it isn't her. I know it wouldn't be her first choice, but I think she's got a better chance as VP. There might be some people who would vote for her just to get Bill back in the WH, but I don't think it would be enough for her to actually win. We need to find someone like Bill, who is truly a uniter, not a divider.

As for the rest of your post, I still think Kerry had more votes in Ohio (and possibly in several other states that he "lost"). I'm not saying we were totally innocent, but I think their fraud was more widespread and affected more votes.

[meganmonkey]

60. Then you're in the wrong forum

If you want to focus on 2006 & 2008, go the forum made specifically for those issues. And careful what you say about Zell Miller, people might start calling you names ;)

[Jo March]

61. Whatever...

If you'd like to stand with Zell, go right ahead. The rest of us KNOW that * did NOT win. There is no way in hell that he won.

Think for yourself! Open your eyes!!

* has a 47% approval rating.
Over 60% of Americans think that Iraq is going badly.

If that is the case, then how in the world did * get more votes??? Do you think that everyone was happy with * before 11/2 and they suddenly woke up?

Please. Get a clue.

[FogerRox]

70. 12 to 15 million votes were scrubbed ---Kerry won by 10% to 11%

An Incumbant Pres gets his May June approval in NOV. Bush was at 44% SO Kerry was to get 56% or 55% consider the 3rd party vote.

[demodonkey]

20. Holy Moly! We "may" destroy confidence in WHAT????

Diebold?

ES & S?

Triad?

Yup, just saying those names really builds my confidence, absolutely, 100%. DEFINITELY makes me want to run out and vote next time!


Geesh!

[AntiFascist]

23. I really hope that this isn't the opinion of....

those in power within the Democratic Party, because it would utterly destroy my confidence in the political system altogether (which I'm already beginning to question). I would prefer that we return to the state of being a truly democratic republic, no matter what that entails!

[hijinx87]

26. are you referring to the DLC?

[AntiFascist]

29. you said it, I didn't nt

[OnionPatch]

24. If they paid attention

They would have no confidence already and rightly, they shouldn't.

Are you saying that once people understand there is fraud that they will just give up voting? I guess I'm not that pessimistic. I would hope that Americans would demand change and accountability. Holy $&*#, if widespread fraud was outright proven and Americans didn't demand change, I guess it really would be time to move to Canada.

[Sandy_0]

30. What you all seem to be forgetting is

that the voters don't know that there is or may be election fraud. We seem to be in a Catch 22. As long as there is rampant election fraud the Neocons will control the press/media. As long as the press/media is in the death grip of the administration, the voters won't know the truth. If the voters don't know the truth etc.

[FogerRox]

74. hit the streets--make like a Ukrainian-51 capitalmarch in NYC @ CBS

[kitkat65]

31. Didn't we do that in 2000 with Florida? Gore, fucking won Florida

and that summabitch Bush is still in the White House!

[MissBrooks]

32. Logic?

Now?

[Laurab]

33. Hell no, it's thinking like that that's the problem

I for one don't believe THIS election was "fraud proof" - matter of fact, I believe the opposite. Now is the time, or there won't be any need to even go through the motions of an election. Public confidence in elections in general SHOULD be destroyed IMO. THIS election certainly destroyed my confidence in elections.

I am probably (or I should say I "was"), not in the least bit politically inclined up until the last couple of years. I started getting a bad feeling about the direction we were headed in, did a little reading, then did a lot more reading about the current administration. I know what these guys are capable of, put NOTHING past them, and anyone who does put anything past them needs to do some reading.

Hell no, we're already late for the game.

[jazzjunkysue]

35. Yeah, you're right. Go watch Family Feud, and be quiet.

We'll only look foolish if we try to insist on a true vote. The best way to avoid looking foolish is to just sit back and believe everything the neocons tell us and be good little americans, and put stickers on our SUV's so we won't feel guilty when our kids die for the oil we use to drive them around town and impress the neighbors. Hijinkx is right: No matter what the GOP does, like, say, prevent people from voting, or, tell them to vote a day late, or, throw out their ballot, or, tell them they did something wrong and are not allowed to vote, we should make sure America still believes the vote was fair. That's all that matters. The illusion of fairness. Those black people who stood in line for hours in the rain were just lost, or something. They don't matter. If we try to take care of them, we'll just look foolish. If we shut up about it and drop it, like the major networks, those black people who couldn't vote will give up trying, and we'll still be able to convince all the other americans that they should have faith in our system. It's OK if only a few thousand black people know the turth. The rest don't have to know. It's better that way. Put up another electric Jesus in your front yard and leave the politics to the politicians.

[berniew1]

36. You have it badly wrong. Its necessary to show massive fraud to get publi

publics attention to insist on election reform to make elections secure and transparent. We currently don't have a democratic system, and won't have until something major occurs to get people's attention.
Fraud such as http://www.flcv.com/fraudpat.html
needs to be pursued and publicized.

[BigBearJohn]

37. Oh my God

Dear Pollyanna
What kind of utter bullshit is this? Should we all play the glad game?
Are you saying people have confidence in our elections NOW?
And are you really saying we should let the people believe in a lie by perpetuating the lie?

Oh yes, let the sleeping sheep sleep.
Oh, but I forgot, that's the American way.
Swallow lie after lie after lie after lie. Follow the herd.
Reminds me of Jack Nicholson yelling out, "You can't handle the TRUTH!"
Oh the sins that have been committed on the road of good intentions.
Let's all bury our heads in the sand and pretend everything is ok.
Jesus Christ, where do I cash in my chips? Lesson for the day: Tis better to have people
believe you are a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

[genieroze]

38. Voter confidence? Election fraud stops now.

[joevoter]

41. troll bait

[Niche]

42. THIS IS THE WAR!

:nuke:

[Raksha]

45. You are absolutely WRONG!!!

It is a VERY good thing if we "utterly destroy public confidence in elections in general." Why on earth should the public have confidence in the electoral process when it doesn't deserve any? On the contrary, we need to do everything we can to make them realize the process is totally and completely BROKEN. Maybe that will be what it takes to shake them out of their lethargy and make them understand that we are in mortal danger of losing our democracy forever. It's precisely the pervasive apathy and the false sense of security on the part of the general public that has allowed evil to penetrate this far into our politics and our culture.

[floridadem30]

46. so we should just allow the fraud to continue, I will never stand for that

[anaxarchos]

49. Wow...

That's the most cynical thing I've heard today.

Silly me. And here I thought Democrats were about democracy.

[Imagevision]

50. Voter Confidence? -- ru nutz?....well are you! -- idiot!

[proudbluestater]

51. Are you serious? WE did not destroy confidence, the STEALERS did!

[Pooka Fey]

54. DU didn't destroy my confidence in elections. Repug cheating destroyed it.

In 2000, 2002 and 2004. How do pull a win out of this thing?

[roenyc]

55. you have got to be kidding me!

I have NO ZERO NADA ZIP confidence in the election process in this county. get real hijinx87.

I was skeptical before the election and am totally turned off right now. in fact i cant figure out why black Americans bother to go to the polls. This entire process has saddend me and brought me tears when i see how our fellow americans were treated because they may be democrats and that judgement was based on their skin color.

i live in NYC. our machines are older then most of you on this board. so there is no manipulation possible. but they did try to screw us on the tiny republican island i live on. by just being republicans and not knowing anything about provisional ballots whenever a Hispanic or black voter happened to walk through the door. amazing.


ok, they are talking about upgrading these machines. the day they put diebold Sequoia or ES&S in this city is the day i just might not bother to vote anymore.

so i have lost faith. and so have many others.

oh and that 19% figure would be huge if this election fraud was getting any air or print time. right now the only people who know about it live in Ohio or are progressive fighting the fight.

[FogerRox]

71. I was recruited by Ted Carter for the Campaign--the conversation that got

me the job was about fraud. the only way for Bush to win is thru massive fraud.

roenyc--yup

[McCamy Taylor]

57. huh?

:silly:

[Pacifist Patriot]

58. Cannot disagree more strongly.

Public confidence in elections that is misplaced and manipulated is the reason we have election fraud. Sometimes you have to leave Eden to make progress.

[troubleinwinter]

62. Say, WHAT?!!?!

Ignore the fraud so voters have "confidence later on" and have their votes stolen AGAIN?

Complete bullshit.

Lose this to win WHAT war? This IS the war.

[AnarchoFreeThinker]

64. what war? There is no war if we don't win this battle.

They'll just reinstall themselves each election with their fraud machine.

[buddysmellgood]

67. This is the last battle of this War. There will be another war, but it

but it will be won or lost with blood. Best to fight this one now.

[FogerRox]

72. in Nj there is a suit in trenton IIRC jan 11th about voting ---the

fight goes on

[lonestarnot]

75. What? You Nuts?

Confidence is already gone!

[corbett]

76. Losing This Battle IS Losing The War

Sorry but if we allow this outrage to go unchallenged, there will no ABSOLUTELY AND UNEQUIVOCALLY NO CHANCE of fair elections in 2006 and 2008. You literally can kiss democracy goodbye.

Besides, the challenge on January 6 will RESTORE the faith of the masses in the system because the US Constitution lays out precisely how this situation is to be handled and mischief was taken into account when the rules were written those many years ago.

Kerry WILL be the 44th President and he'll be inaugurated sooner rather than later!

[madison2000]

77. I think you misunderstand the problem.

The elections at present do not deserve voter confidence, that's the problem. We need to show what is wrong so that we can establish that specific changes need to be made, and then make those changes.