What motivates those who insist that everyone give up vote fraud work?

[Stephanie]

Why these insistent demands that we get over it and move on? What would be the logic in letting the vote fraud proceed unchallenged? Is any vote fraud investigation getting in the way of other good work good people might be doing instead? What is the downside to pursuing the vote fraud investigations? I see none.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

1. i think people are tired of the democratic party not being a bit more

introspective,

in my opinion the vote should never have been so close. we are obviously doing something wrong...why wasnt this a slam-dunk election. the economy is in the shithole...the war is going badly...most americans arent as right wing as this admin is.

[merh]

11. mmmmmhhhhh, CAN YOU SAY Corporate MEDIA WHORES?

Go ask the folks in the street about how things are. Ask them. They haven't a clue, they don't know how bad things are, they have been lulled into a sense of comfort and patriotism.

The Corporate MEDIA WHORES gave the weed free coverage and more coverage than they gave Kerry. He was allowed to campaign for free on military bases, in violation of the laws and under the guise of a pep rally.

Look at the numbers again, the DNC & K/E campaigns raised more money than any dem before them, they raised almost as much as B/C despite the 4 year advantage B/C had, K/E tickect won more votes than any candidate before them (including st. raygun & big dawg) and if the votes had not been stolen, he would have won more than the idiot in chief.

The party is not in trouble, just the idiots who believe the RNC and the Media spin that it is. Look at what was accomplished for God's sake.

[genieroze]

22. They will wake up when their SS is gone, their tax deductions are

taken away and the rich pay NO taxes. When their sons and daughters get their draft notices to fight perpetual war, when their jobs are shipped overseas or taken away by an illegal aliens who will work for a fraction of what they will work for with no benefits. When they force their kids to say the Lords Prayer in school. When they only teach creationism and ban science. When the air and water are so polluted that only the rich can afford to buy it. When they force women to seek back alley abortions and coat hangers again. When they deny women all control over their bodies and minds. When they start bringing back Jim Crow Laws like they did during this election. Do ya think they will wake up then? Well, it will be too late and a hundred years of social progress will be in the toilet.

[merh]

26. It will take affecting each of them, individually, in the pocket book

and at home before they wake up. MSM is piping in the elevator music and they enjoy it. Tokoyo Rush Limpballs and his like will continue with their "we are winning" "god is great" "they hate us for our freedoms" rants, lulling the masses into the complacent, patriotic fevor that makes them feel safe and involved. The churches will talk of the next coming of Christ and the disciples will see that the horrors of now are a sign that it is just around the corner.

(corrected typo)

[genieroze]

33. It will take affecting each of them, individually, in the pocket book?

Absolutely and it will, in spades.

edit corrected typo

[merh]

corrected typo!

.

[genieroze]

47. I didn't even notice your typo, Ill fix mine now.

[seabeyond]

46. incumbent during time of war...............

i think we did pretty damn good, adding i think kerry won. there is no reason but bush should have had an easy election, and he had to steal it to win

so i guess it is all in how we see things. now factually i could tell you why a democrat should have lost to bush. factually. so i am not going to say my view is not reality based

[madison2000]

2. They have lost hope and are giving up but they feel guilty

I still feel guilty as an American that we allow this crap to go on and will never stop fighting till it is cleaned up!
:dem:

[JoMama49]

25. The reason this election was not a slam dunk for democrats is

that the RW has convinced the country that all the immorality like Janet Jackson's wardrobe malfunction, MTV, porn, etc. is the work of "liberals". This is the immorality that evangelican types and even mainstream conservatives see in their daily lives. And, unfortunately, this is what people thought they were voting against with a vote for GWB.

And, what common folks experience or don't experience in their daily lives is much more important to them than, say, an illegal war in Iraq where thousands of innocent people are killed, or the fact that the whole Bush Co. are nothing more than corporate whores. Mainstreet America doesn't see the big picture like that. They see what is right in front of them on T.V. or in their kids' school, and they don't like what they see. They honestly thought a vote for * was a vote to bring them a more decent, simpler life (like that of the '50's), and that is much more important to them than something happening in the Middle East, or even the fact that the economy is going to hell in a handbasket.

Until we as liberal democrats work to convince folks we are the ones to bring decency, honesty and integrity back to this society, they will continue to be fooled by the charade currently in the Whitehouse. And IMNSHO, that's why Kerry didn't win in a landslide.

[Zan_of_Texas]

35. Well said, JoMama.

I want a more decent, simpler life too.

But the decent, simple life with Bush is just a media creation, like a PR campaign for a bar of soap or a mouthwash or something. Well, we do get a ton of simple - as in, simpleton, eh?

Or not, because Rove is the puppeteer. And Cheney is running foreign policy.

Unfortunately, the facts are that both parties are wholly-owned subsidiaries of the multi-national corporations and a few other interests.

Anyway, the Rs are certainly happy.

[mattclearing]

3. They don't want their world to be disturbed.

Most people are very content to believe whatever the media tells them to believe.

When you challenge the validity of their news sources, they get defensive.

People are attached to the institutions that provide them with daily information, even despite obvious failures like Jayson Blair and WMD.

If Tom Brokaw said it, it must be true.

edited for formatting

[Merlot]

4. It's just so inconvienient

to worry about whether or not your gov't is legitimate.

[merh]

5. Yeah, it might get in the way of folks damning the party,

or shifting the party to the center, or blaming the candidates. Everyone knows that election fraud is a non-issue and should be ignored. We have to focus on fixing our broken party. <dripping with sarcasm!>

What are they hiding? :shrug:
What are they afraid of? :think:

[Wapsie B]

6. Other than the obvious rwinger's desire

to move on and install chimpy again I don't know. Could be repug operatives within the Democratic Party making all the noise.
Until we make certain that all elections in this country are without fraud there IS no other good work to be done. It has to start there.

As it is now, Rove just made a case for greater voter apathy in the future. People sitting on the fence wondering whether to vote or not will be convinced that their vote REALLY doesn't matter if some Diebold worker can make a few keystrokes and elect a repug. The takeover will be complete. The Democratic Party should be breathing fire at this very moment.

[RevCheesehead]

7. I like your question.

Those who demand that we "get over it" or move on are, IMHO, political fundamentalists, and no better than their religious counterparts.

These people insist that we adopt their world view, their notions of justice, morality, and whatever. "You MUST see the world in exactly the same way that I do!" (Thank you for your comments, & move along.)

These people: ate paste in kindergarten, were probably tattle-tales, and still fart at home and blame the dog.

[meganmonkey]

8. They don't have enough faith and they want to be right on Thursday

IF no one stands up. It's easier to be right than to expect the best and be disappointed if it doesn't happen.
Either that, or they're just mean.

Screw 'em. I'd rather hope for the best and be wrong.

KEEP HOPE ALIVE!!!

:bounce:

[bettyellen]

71. You said it Megan! A lot of idiots use this standard when voting too!

Always make sure you are on the winning side!
Some people gotta be right no matter what the cost.
Fuc*ing sad.

[Not a Sheep]

9. Maybe I missed the post....

..... but who are "those who insist that everyone give up vote fraud work"?

Are there specific posts you are reffering to where people are telling you to give up voter fraud work?

[merh]

21. Yes!

Go read, it is quite entertaining to read some of them.

What are they hiding? :shrug: What are they scared :scared: of? :think:

[Not a Sheep]

53. Thanks but.......

... my question was asking about the specific posts being referred to. I thought that since it was being discussed here, someone would point them out so I could take a look.

I've read alot on the forums and haven't seen seen anything about people insisting that everyone give up vote fraud work. I've read stuff where people said we should give up thinking Kerry is going to win but nothing about giving up on vote fraud.

Thanks for confirming that there are such posts however, maybe someone will point them out to me.

[merh]

57. Then you have read everything.

It is there.

[Not a Sheep]

61. ? Not sure what you're saying ? .......

No, I didn't say I've read everything, I said I've read alot on the forums. You know, meaning I've read a lot of posts and not seen the posts that you are dicussing here that insist we give up vote fraud work.

Again, I was really just interested and hoping someone would point some of these posts out for me.

Thanks

[merh]

62. Yesterday there were a lot of them posted.

You can really find them on the GD politics forum. I can give you an example, if you like.

Here is a thread!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=203&topic_id=224644

A belated welcome. :hi:

[Not a Sheep]

67. Thanks I read through the thread you gave....

.. but didn't see an agrument with people saying we should give up working on voter fraud. Maybe I missed it?

[merh]

68. You didn't read the thread or you are just being difficult.

The original thread is about about it and there are several posters that have posted in support of the election fraud being a "non-issue".

17. As in its a non-issue
and a narrative created by those who cannot accept Bush's victory.
There's nothing historic about this at all, except the denial.


22. I've seen everyone's justification for
not accepting the reality that is Kerry's defeat, but I don't drink the kool aid which seems to have become an article of faith around here.

I don't like anything about Bush or what he stands for, neither did I about Reagan and Nixon, but we got through their terms, and we will weather this as well.

28. Keep telling yourself that
And four years from now if we run a half-assed campaign and lose again you can keep telling yourself it was fixed.

It allows people an escape from facing the real troubles that plague our party.

[Not a Sheep]

69. Yeah, ok....

.. I see what you're saying. I did read through it initally and really just thought that one person was saying we should accept the fact that Kerry lost and try to accept that we have another 4 years of Bush. When I read it at first, I didn't think the person was saying they didn't beleive their was fraud and you give up saying their was.

Thanks for taking the time to answer my question.

[merh]

70. It's no problem.

Again, Welcome to DU! :hi:

[bush_is_wacko]

10. Neither do I

I just think people who suggest that are at the "hopeless" point. They don't have any faith left that a Senator is going to risk his/her career to object and they don't have any faith left that we can change the election process for the better. Maybe they are even afraid of the possibility of civil unrest. There may come a time when I lose ALL faith in my elected officials, but I'm not there yet. I don't think this should end on Jan. 6th! We have two years before the next election. I think that is long enough to make the case and the change with regards to election reform. It is not about who sits in the oval office anymore, maybe they think that is the only thing that matters. Maybe they are the ones that voted AGAINST Bush, not FOR Kerry.

[iconoclastNYC]

15. What was accomplished after 2000's mess?

HAVA was a joke. No paper trail. Where was the media on this?

Electoral Reform is not going to get anywhere without massive attention, and civil unrest. The best way is to have this contested.

[bush_is_wacko]

97. That's my take on the situation.

We have undergone three election cycles with these GD electronic/optical computers in control or Republican hands. It makes me sick that this country is in such a mess. With the angry leftovers of 2000, the war in Iraq, 2002, 2004 this country is headed in the direction of civil upheaval. The anger GROWS by the day!

[Pacifist Patriot]

12. Fear?

The idea that what you take for granted has been compromised is an incredibly frightening one. One of the basic human needs is security. That includes everything from being secure in having your fundamental biological needs met to feeling secure in your place in society. The problem of vote fraud is a daunting and overwhelming one. Certainly enough to engender feelings of insecurity. Don't tip the apple cart mindset?

[iconoclastNYC]

13. They have taken the bait

The media first and foremost breeds apathy and complacency. The media is shaping the opposition to be ineffective, and these people are the manifestation, they are too afraid to fight. Republicans on the other hand fight for everything no matter how hopeless it is.

One of Rove's tactics is to make victory seem inevitable and I guess a corollary to that is to make something worth fighting for impossible. So you have have to shape media coverage to make any of us who point out the facts surrounding the election look like left-wing loons so the people in the democratic party who would support us will just ignore us.

Every time I meet a 'connected' democrat who starts speaking in RNC talking points about how the left wing is why the Democrats are loosing I just break out in hives and see how big the challenge is.

I think the left is taking back the party slowly thanks to the Internet and it's only a matter of time before something so bad happens (scandal, big recession, etc) that no amount of spinning can stop the Revolution.

First the DLC corporatist will be chucked out and then political necessity will force the moderates to eject the rotten conservative/evangelical "bad apples" from their party.

Or we turn into a fascist right-wing totalitarian state. I have faith that America is better than that.

[Raster]

14. The only downside, at least to those calling for a halt to further...

...investigation, is that the investigations WILL uncover election fraud. And contrary to what the whore media are telling the country, EACH AND EVERY DAY brings additional information and new revelations that point even more to election fraud. The further you dig, the dirtier it gets. The only hope that the "there was no fraud" crowd have is to shut down the investigations before something gets out that even the bush* media loyalists can't obscure and spin. There are members of the republican power structure that are quietly behind the scenes wringing their hands and sweating profusely because they know that the further the investigation gets, the more obvious the various forms of fraud will become. It's not just bush* and $hrubco that were involved in the 2004 (s)Election fraud, there's a whole bunch of collaborators that did their part to influence the results.

Think back to the sheer number of polls just before the election. The polls showed without question that a clear majority of the voters of this country were not satisfied with bush*. Every indicator said bush* would not be elected president. And then came the exit polls, which also verified that most of the voters voted AGAINST bush*. The only thing that said bush* won was the final election totals.

For this country to "heal" and for the citizenry to have confidence in the fairness of their elections, this election must be examined as closely and as impartially as possible. If bush* truly believes he had won the presidency with the margins and numbers presented, he should have no problem holding the results to the light for all to see.

[rolleitreks]

16. Because any fraud which occurred

was not decisive. The issue is a non-starter. It also raises the profile of the more extreme element of the Dems, much to the satisfaction and amusement of the righties.

[pauldp]

20. NON DECISIVE?!!

Yeah and Johnny Cochrane said the evidence against OJ was non-decisive. He even sold that to a jury, and they had f*cking DNA.

The evidence is overwhelming. Conyers and anyone with half a brain knows that, yet it is still being painted as inconclusive. The theft was well hidden of course but just take a look at all of Conyers letter over the past month and a half for starters.

[Qutzupalotl]

24. Oh heaven forfend! They might laugh at us!

They're going to either way, so why not look for fraud?

[Jo March]

50. rolleitreks, go over to the Voter Issues forum

and look at all of the evidence over there. Read it thoroughly and then come back and say that it is not "not decisive"!

[Wilms]

17. I accept that they're over it. But why do they bother to heap scorn?

That's the bigger question, for me.

It reminds me of a little kid saying, "Dad is really drunk." and the older sibling says, "No, he's just tired. Been working hard. Lost his balance."

It's denial. If you dare to say, "what if", you better have an asbestos suit on.

It really kinda freeps me out.

[Jo March]

54. Oh my gosh! My sister was like that growing up

I'd say, "Daddy's drunk again" and she'd have some stupid statement of denial! Wow! And, of course, she is a bushbot.

[Wilms]

59. There ya go.

Tragic, though.

[Jo March]

60. Very tragic

She exists in a world where Iraq caused 9/11, there are WMDs and my dad wasn't an abusive alcoholic.

[Wilms]

63. Even more tragic,

Many Americans exists in a fantasy-world where Iraq caused 9/11, there are WMDs, and Bush isn't an abusive alcoholic.

[Jo March]

64. Zing! LOL, that is so true! nt

[Stephanie]

65. Speaking of which - his face is scratched up again today

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/050103/480/whre10501031611


http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/050103/480/whre10201031545

[Wilms]

66. You'd think he should get training wheels for his mountain bike.

Where the fuck is Secret Service. They're supposed to protect the President, no matter what, 'cause if something bad happens to him, it could be bad for all of us.

And it sure has been. :spank:

[FreepFryer]

87. That's a bitchslap scar.

Clinton's gettin' ready to give him another one, WITHOUT waiting for a world-shattering tsunami this time.

[Der Blaue Engel]

93. I like to think Laura's beating him

:evilgrin:

[bcflor]

18. Lack of

evidence???

[katinmn]

94. Lack of evidence? No, Blackwell stonewalled the evidence

and I guess that is acceptable for some and they are willing to move on.

[mdb]

19. From votecobb's site. Nice button.

[zann725]

31. Oooo, gotta have one! Thanks for sharing!

n/t

[Qutzupalotl]

23. Perhaps we're getting too close for comfort?

[Patsy Stone]

27. Fear of the truth about the POTUS.

Ximinez: NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition! Our chief weapon is surprise...surprise and fear...fear and surprise.... Our two weapons are fear and surprise...and ruthless efficiency.... Our *three* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency...and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope.... Our *four*...no... *Amongst* our weapons.... Amongst our weaponry...are such elements as fear, surprise.... I'll come in again.

(The Inquisition exits)

Chapman: I didn't expect a kind of Spanish Inquisition.

[glitch]

29. LOL! first of the day, thank you! nt

[Patsy Stone]

42. My pleasure

Goodness knows we all need to laugh a bit more. :)

[IStriker]

28. I don't know anybody insisting "that everyone give up vote fraud work..."

All that I've seen are people like me who are perfectly willing to believe there has been fraud in this election, but not because people are making allegations without a shred of evidence to back it up.

There is no downside that I know of in pursuing an investigation of fraud, but there is a big downside to making allegations that fraud occurred without any proof. If we cry "wolf" with no proof, nobody is going to listen to anything we have to say after that and we'll be written off as cranks!

[iconoclastNYC]

30. Not a shred of evidence?

Look at anything that blackwell did as evidence. Read the report at www.bpac.info/ohiofraud.html

There is enuf evidence to not certify and launch a congressional investigation....if you think otherwise you need to read more.

[IStriker]

34. Non-existant link

[Stephanie]

36. Just shorten the link - it's there

You're not trying very hard:

http://www.bpac.info/

[Zan_of_Texas]

40. Link

That is a great site, by the way.

Try this: http://www.bpac.info

then look for this (It has documentation too):

The Case for Fraud in Ohio Election 2004


I. Voter Suppression
A. Overly Restrictive Registration Requirements
B. Incompetence in Processing Registrations
C. Challenges to New Registrants on Insufficient Grounds
D. Misinformation About Voting Status/Location/Date
E. Voter Intimidation
F. Voting Machine Shortages/Malfunctions
G. Overly Restrictive Rules & Incorrect Procedure Regarding Provisional Ballots
H. Poorly Designed Absentee Ballots Caused Voters to Mark Incorrect Candidate

II. Access to Voting Systems Before Election Violates Protocol

III. A Third-Rate Burglary in Toledo

IV. Suspect Results
A. Registration Irregularities
B. Exceptionally High Voter Turnout
C. More Votes than Voters
D. Exceptionally High Rates of Undervotes
E. High Rate of Overvotes Due to Ballots Pre-Punched for Bush?
F. The Kerry/Connally Discrepancy
G. Discrepancy between Exit Polls & Tabulated Votes

V. Restricting Citizen Observation & Access to Public Documents
A. Warren County Lockdown
B. Restricting Citizen Access to Election Records

VI. What Went Wrong with the Recounts/Investigation of Vote Irregularities
A. Chain of Custody of Voting Machines & Materials Violated
B. Failure to Follow Established Procedures for Recounts
C. Failure to Allow Recount Observers to Fully Examine Materials
D. Secretary of State Blackwell has Failed to Answer Questions

VII. Recount Reveals Significant Problems

VIII. Methods of Election Fraud
A. Stuffing the Ballot Box
B. Touchscreen voting machines appear to have been set to “Bush” as Default
C. Computers pre-programmed to ‘adjust’ vote count in Bush’s favor?
D. Tampering with the Tabulators: Evidence of Hacking in Real-Time?

IX. Additional Observations
A. Irregular/Impossible Changes in Exit Polls over time on Election Night

[Jo March]

55. Again, go over to the Voting Issues forum and read the

state-by-state lists of fraud, disenfranchisement and all sorts of other stuff. Please be informed before you say that we don't have a "shred" of evidence because we do.

I do not give a flying rat's ass if I'm thought of as a crank. It's my democracy and I will not get over it!!

[L. Coyote]

32. When there's a smell of skunk in the chicken coop ...

This reminds me of my childhood on a small farm in North Dakota, a few short miles from Sen. Byron Dorgan's home. About every four years or so, we would detect the smell of a skunk upon approaching the chicken coop while doing chores. Those egg-layers need food, and warm water in the winter. You can smell it in the wind when something is afoul inside the foul house. You don't even need to see the evidence, the stink is so pronounced.

The problem is that the stink from solving the problem is far greater than the status quo. But you can't just walk away from the problem. If you do, the eggs will be eaten by the foul-smelling skunk, if not the chickens too. And the problem will be there every day instead of cropping up again in say, oh, about four years.

So you do what needs to be done because the alternative is worst. You endure the horrible stench of getting rid of the stinking creature for the greater good of everyone in the coop (and in the kitchen).

Of course, there's an art to clearing out the skunk. It is a difficult task and best accomplished without stinking up the inside of the coop. You want to first get the skunk out in the open! Then you put it to its final rest and only then can you run from the stink of it!!

Some days, doing chores is more difficult than others. Such is the life of a farm boy.

[Jo March]

56. But in our case, we saw the skunk go into the coop

Yes we did. We saw the skunk and we want to get rid of it - the correct way without getting sprayed in the process.

It's just that some folks want us to forget that we saw the skunk go in the coop in the first place. "Who are you going to believe: me or your lying eyes?"

:eyes:

[Der Blaue Engel]

92. Brilliant analogy, Coyote!

And in this case, it's nice to have a coyote in the henhouse. ;)

[L. Coyote]

95. El Coyote is in the skunk den, making trouble there!!

I'll get the stink off eventually. A farm boy trick will come in handy. Burnt sugar smoke works.

We once tanned a skunk skin, so I have the necessary experience for the task at hand!!

[super simian]

37. Good Question!

I raised a similar question on another forum which-shall-be-nameless -- admittedly in not the MOST diplomatic terms possible -- and was just about tarred and feathered and run out of town by the powers-that-be since the powers-that-be on that forum have decided to sideline the election fraud issue.

But I think it's one thing to ignore election fraud 2004 for some of the reasons (or rationalizations) offered here, such as that there is not enough evidence of fraud to change the results, we don't want the Democratic Party to look like a bunch of tinhat whiners on the lunatic fringe, it's just a natural part of the grieving process, we need to fix what's wrong with the party, etc.

So it's one thing to decide to ignore election fraud 2004, fine if it doesn't bother "you" (hypothetical you), and you aren't concerned about it and don't think having a verifiable vote count is central to our democracy, or think you can legislate voter reform with the repug fraudsters controlling (read paralyzing) every branch of the government, fine if you want to believe that, I'm not going to waste my time trying to convince you when it could be time well spent engaging in some productive activism, such as writing letters, circulating petitions, supporting other activists, or whatever.

So fine if it doesn't bother these folks for whatever reason, but why do they get on threads and go up and down the threads challenging and arguing and snarking and doing just about everything they can think of to try to suppress the discussions and the activism that are related to election fraud 2004? That's what I just don't get. So I guess I hinted that there might be something vaguely suspect about this behavior, and as a result I found myself on the receiving end of some very ugly verbal abuse. I have since apologized for not having been more diplomatic in my orginal wording, which I hope helped to defuse the situation, but am still very confused or I should say even more confused.

So this is my question. If these folks want to ignore election fraud 2004, that is not deal with it actively right now, then why don't they just ignore the folks who DON'T want to ignore it right now? Why all the confrontations? That's what I just don't get.

:shrug: :shrug: :shrug: :shrug: :shrug: :shrug: :shrug: :shrug: :shrug: :shrug: :shrug: :shrug: :shrug: :shrug: :shrug: :shrug: :shrug: :shrug: :shrug:

[electropop]

38. Please say "election fraud"...

"vote fraud" is the Rove term, meant to imply the fraud was committed _by_ rather than _against_ voters.

[Stephanie]

39. I am so tired of being told what to say

What to do, what to think, what my opinion should be and how I should express it. Which is why I posted this thread.

[Zan_of_Texas]

41. Hi Stef!

:hi:

Happy New Year -- I am hoping we get the one we deserve, and the creeps get the one they deserve!

[Stephanie]

45. Hi Zan! Are you going to DC?

You should go. I wish I could.

Happy New Year! The only thing that's happy about it, of course, is that it's over.

[Zan_of_Texas]

58. No. Maybe I can convince someone in the DC area to represent me!

I have about a dozen people I know there. If they would go, it would be GREAT!

[electropop]

48. Sorry to be such a priss about it

but I just can't stand to see the Rove side frame the debate. It's the little turns of phrase that make their best and most persistent weapons. You have every right to disagree, but I urge you to ponder the matter for a moment.

[Stephanie]

49. I have pondered it weeks ago and I still disagree

Vote Fraud and Election Fraud are equally good names, IMO. Vote Fraud has the advantage of being shorter.

VOTER Fraud implies the voter did it. VOTE Fraud implies somebody messed with the vote. Again, IMO.

[brindis_desala]

43. I often what people would say if their ATM's always had "glitches"

say where suddenly $16,000 disappeared from their account or they tried to make a deposit and the machine said thank you- crediting Mr. Greenspan's account...

[Pam-Moby]

44. They are SCARED

They know that if we actually count all of the votes. Like in 2000 when after wards the votes were counted and it showed that Gore would have won. This time more corruption was committed and probably during the investigation many people would end up in jail for their evil ways!!!

[KittyWampus]

51. It's ELECTION FRAUD. Please Stop Saying Vote Fraud

and here's a repeat just for emphasis:

It. Is. Election. Fraud.

[Stephanie]

52. Please. Stop. Telling. Me. What. To. Say.

Thank you.

[KittyWampus]

81. Why, You. Are. Wrong. And It Doesn't Help The Issue To Mislabel It.

[Stephanie]

85. It's semantics and I happen to disagree with you.

And I'll say what I like.

[Walt Starr]

72. What motivates people to insist that everyone put false hope in something

that is going nowhere fast?

[Stephanie]

73. If we don't fix the system now we will never have an honest election again

Regardless what happens to Kerry, you have to admit the system is broken. Should we just let it slide? Why?

[Walt Starr]

74. I've yet to be convinced the system is even broken!

Seems to me things worked better this go aroung than in 2000!

[Stephanie]

75. Really? So you're cool with people waiting in line ten hours to vote?

And you won't mind voting on a touchscreen machine that is impossible to audit?

[Walt Starr]

76. That's not fraud

which is what we were talking about.

Can the system be better? Absolutely.

But standing in line ten hours is not fraud!

[Stephanie]

77. I say it is.

They deliberately did not place enough machines in Dem polling sites.

But let's say it's just a coincidence. What is the drawback to studying the election, examining the problems, and attempting to rectify them? What harm is caused by pointing out that many of the perceived problems could be rectified if we had an audit system? What possible reason is there to STOP looking into this?

[Walt Starr]

78. Okay, let's give you that one county

What's being charged is a widespread conspiracy to defraud the electorate across Ohio.

That's the biggest pile of steaming bullshit ever passed off as a conspiracy theory in human history!

[Stephanie]

79. Did you listen to the two Conyers hearings?

Because that's not the testimony I heard. Have you read the testimony? Who alleged widespread conspiracy? I heard of many, many incidents, some affecting large numbers of votes. Tell me what reports you have read.

If I don't reply it's because I have to get off the computer right now - someone else will have to take my side.

[Walt Starr]

80. Yes, actually, I did

Which is why I am convinced there was no fraud.

[Der Blaue Engel]

91. Whoever you're arguing with (I can't see him/her)...

...speaks volumes in their dogged persistence to discredit this valiant fight.

Why do people want us to give up? Why, indeed? I think it's pretty clear.

The more they run around and squirm on the floor, the more I giggle.

[bettyellen]

89. you are so confusing false hope and a need to remain optimistic

in the face of a difficult task, those motives are pretty easy to understand.
why you are so invested in discouraging people, i have no idea.
unless you're just a naysaying old biddy and it's merely a refelex.
what's it to you anyay, really? i don't believe it's to spare people from having their hopes dashed. that's a total crock. you are obviously not empathetic enough to act on that motivation.

[stillcool]

82. Arrogant Ignorance...

Is my favorite description of these folk. That and Self-Righteous Bigotry. And they are very busy here today.

[Evening Star]

86. Add APATHY

256 mil

115 mil voted

141 mil did not

how many disenfranchaised or ripped off of thier vote?

How many does that leave?

WHO JUST DON'T CARE

ES

[consciousobjector]

83. I hate to be cynical

after having just blasted my own hubby in another thread for his cynicism, but I really think it is largely due to our American popular culture. The country's collective attention span is about 2 minutes...and * and Company and the MSM know that, They used that knowledge to distract people (who were sadly all too willing to be distracted).

People were tired of the election (especially those in the "swing states"). Now they're ready for the new thing... the Scott Peterson trial...now that's over and along comes the tsunami, then it will be Michael Jackson's trial. Even people who were upset right after the election have just "moved on".

The only way to turn this is to get MSM to latch onto it because they can't help themselves, whatever their political motives, if the story is big enough, they will cover it. If all the Democratic Senators (and maybe one or two Republican ones?) all joined Rep. Conyers on the 6th, would that be big enough?...

[consciousobjector]

84. I'm a little out of it today...

It took me so long to type my last post, I didn't realize that the subject had drifted.

Whether you want to call voter disenfranchisement fraud or just a blatant civil rights violation, it's still illegal and casts doubt upon the entire election! Once a real investigation can be started (I'm not dissing Rep. Conyers, just saying we need an investigation with some teeth - power of subpoena,etc.), then the "evidence" that doubters say they want to see, will be revealed

[m.standridge]

88. well, I get very discouraged and feel alone in worrying with this

sometimes. So many people are "bored with it" because they don't understand.
They just don't understand the stakes here.
We just don't know what will happen if this apparent computer vote manipulation isn't investigated--and if occurring, stopped.

A lot of good people just don't understand. The three branches thing, is the most disconcerting, on top of this. That's why the rigging would be so hard to catch at a later time. We almost have to catch it now, or it's too late.

But it just seems almost impossible to do.
I really don't know how we're going to do it.
The tsunami, the media's boredom/disinterest/deliberate disinterest (depending on the outlet), all "conspire" de facto against us.

Can we really fix this? I'm very concerned. Where's the Democratic Party money? Don't they realize what could be at stake here?
Sometimes I wonder if many people realize about the three branches.

[Evening Star]

90. 256 mil people in this country

and only 115 mil voted

what does that tell us?

ES

[Blue Christmas]

96. The most disappointing reaction...

I've been getting comes from those who were activists with me before the election who have now by and large given up, even when confronted with the compelling evidence of likely fraud. These people who were so zealous and full of fight are now just totally fatalistic and all but defeated.

That's why this forum has been such a refuge for me. Such a place of hope and healing. Because it's been pretty disappointing for me to face this kind of resigned abandonment from my formerly passionate friends and colleagues.

Not coincidentally, I recently reread Emerson's "Self-Reliance" essay, and I think there are a number of passages therein that reflect our efforts in the election fraud struggle - especially when confronted by the so-called "naysayers":

"Society is a joint-stock company, in which the members agree, for the better securing of his bread to each shareholder, to surrender the liberty and culture of the eater. The virtue in most request is conformity....I am ashamed to think how easily we capitulate to badges and names, to large societies and dead institutions...Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind"

Right now I feel the MSM is like a bully demanding that we follow in lock step and display the "virtue" of conformity. And unfortunately, most people are only too ready to comply. Too many have sacrificed the integrity of their own minds (which are now more acclimated to infotainment and news magazines than to actual news) and find it too inconvenient or strenuous or scary (and let's face it - sometimes it is!) to challenge whatever the MSM and the dominant party say is the "truth".

Conversely, most of us in this forum agree that the MSM and the ruling regime are the very "dead institutions" to which Emerson refers.

Usually, at the end of the day it's enough for me to realize that I am fighting what I consider to be a good fight - regardless of whether I get much support from friends or family or colleagues. But it certainly does hurt sometimes.

[bitchkitty]

98. Kind of makes you wonder sometime....n/t