Exactly how is election reform going to occur with Repubs in charge

[MoonRiver]

of all branches of government? Apologists for the congressional Dems, who certified Ohio's fraudulent results, state that the goal was only election reform. That is a great goal, although standing up for what is right by refusing to accept electoral corruption would have been even better. However, I don't see this as possible with the current Democratic numbers in Congress. Even if we get a few moderate Repubs to stand with us in the Senate, no way is the House going to fold. And I don't buy the idea that Repukes can be shamed into doing our bidding in this regard. They can always frame the issue in a way that makes them look like the good guys. The fascist media whores will totally support whatever spin the criminals put out. We'll just end up looking like whiners, which is what we were so terrified of appearing to be during the certification process!

Maybe I'm missing something and there is a great strategy beyond having enough votes to pass real electoral reform. Please help enlighten me if there truly is a way out of this mess. But as far as I can see, the cheating will probably become more organized and crafty. Why should the Pukes stop rigging elections when they consistently get away with it? They have NO scruples, so appealing to moral values will get us nowhere. Force and in your face accusations is the only way to deal with such people. We had a chance to confront them on January 6th and failed to do so.

[Benhurst]

1. I fear there will be no meaningful reform. Such legislaion is

not in the interest of our one-party government.

:spank: typo corrected

[Peace Patriot]

21. "I fear..." Don't just fear it. Act!

To me, it's blatantly obvious that Congress is not going to give us back our right to vote.

That was one of the great values of Jan. 6. While it showed us who the heroes are--the true believers in democracy--it also showed us how weak the Democrats are. They don't have the power to retrieve our right to vote--nor even to stop further destruction of this right (and other rights).

So we have to do it ourselves, locally, state by state. We are the majority. Most people would agree that voting needs to be transparent (and not in the control of BushCon companies, for godssakes!). Election rules power resides with the states.

We must use this power while we have it. In fact, I think it's a dangerous notion that we can rely on anyone in the federal government to solve this critical, first priority problem. I disagree with Jesse Jackson and others about this. States rights must be protected in this case. They are our only hope of reform.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

2. The people (US!) will demand it...

I for one will not shut up even when faced with pessimists and naysayers! Democracy and America itself are in danger. This is only the beginning. Either buck up and get with the momentum, or get out of the way, cause we'll run you over.

[MoonRiver]

3. You haven't told me how!

I assume you mean by demonstrations and letter writing. Maybe, but I can't forget the hundreds of thousands who protested the Iraq war. That got us zilch. Even our presidential candidate voted for *'s right to declare war! I just don't get how reform will occur.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

15. I think our tactics are changing....

I tried to find anyone in Portland who was going to Protest, you know with signs, standing out in the cold and yelling for Justice. Nothing! and I'm in Portland!
BUT - the letters, the calls - we shut down the switchboard! We have sprinkled the web with Election Fraud sites and blogs, we have CONNECTED with others who have been silent, so beat down by the system that we have been without a strong enough voice to be heard. There is strength in numbers, and we are gaining new converts EVERY DAY! We will find new and innovative ways to MAKE them pay attention to what we have to say... we are already well on our way.

That's how.


put them on the hot seat, and turn up the flame!

[MoonRiver]

19. Bless you for these efforts!

I mean that from the bottom of my heart. I feel such despair right now. It seems this country has sunk into the inferno, and I can see no way out. I know there is a way I just can't visualize it yet. Your post gives me hope. :hug:

[Califooyah Operative]

40. Us and the congressmen and women who stood up and protested

the election, John Kerry's email asked his however many 10's of millions to call delay and hastart, many dem speaches on the 6th called out republicans, who had worked on election reform in the past, on Hava, and such. Jessie jackson,and many others are calling for a civil rights movement to include the right to vote. Theres all sorts of promised legislation, and it's up to us to keep the attention on it and them, and to keep lobbying the right folks, using our numbers,. and also informing the public. It's always an uphill battle, and it may not happen this year or next, but it will happen. When the dem establishment is behind it, the fact that even reid spoke, and stood by boxer, shows that this is being taken seriously, and is not going away. We also need to get republicans on tv and corner them with the issue, no-rational person is going to be ok with voter suppression and disinfranchisement of minorities.

[BeFree]

6. Yep, we, the people

Will crush them. We will roll over their lame asses. We will destroy them in place, if they don't make progress and keep ahead of us.

[yinkaafrica]

10. Why didn't the people demand it in '04?

[stray cat]

18. I, myself, became aware too late for 2004

[Jo March]

20. I hate to say it but I just didn't want to believe it could happen

I just didn't want to believe that it was as bad as it was. Now I want to work to stop this insanity before it gets too late.

[splat]

4. Both parties should be afraid the others' hackers might be better n/t

[MoonRiver]

7. Repubs own the machines. Hacking is a lot easier for them.

I know nothing about hacking, but I would suspect the Pukes think they've got that contingency covered. Anything is possible though.

[Pirate Smile]

5. Elections are done at the state and local level. Here is where we are

most likely to make changes.

We need to get referendums and ballot initiatives on the ballots in 2006. We need to get the state houses to move on these issues also.

We need to research how we can try to enact reform on the state level in all 50 states.

We should still pursue changes at a Federal level but the likelihood of meaningful reform is small. We do have more power on a local and state level.

We need to change this forum to research what kind of reform we want to do, what the laws are specific to each state and what we want to pursue at a federal level. There is a lot of work to be done.

[MoonRiver]

11. That approach makes sense.

After all states still maintain a lot of autonomy.

[Pirate Smile]

16. This is where almost all of the authority for the elections resides.

If we actually want real changes by 2008 we should focus on the states. The can pass requirements for the machines.

The Republicans in Congress and Bush may go along with some watered down reform but that may even be impossible.

Constitutional Amendments take years and years.

Real change will have to be done on a state level.

Hopefully, we can have a coordinated effort in pursuing these reforms but there really isn't all that much time.

We need to strike while the iron is hot.

[GreenPartyVoter]

26. You got it. Visit my site for some ideas concerning this

http://timeforachange.bluelemur.com/electionreform.htm#why

[Philly Buster]

44. This will sound almost heretical but hear me out

Elections are run by the state and counties.

Washington state had one royally screwed up governor's race in which the republican won in 2 counts but the democrat won in the final count.

Republicans are justifiably pissed.

There were a lot of irregularities in that election especially in King County. Some irregularities favored Rossi, others Gregoire(sp?). In King County, which eventually turned the election for Gregoire, there was undoubtedly massive fraud.

The republicans are challenging the vote but have to get passed the WA supreme court. That decision could go either way. I doubt there will be a re-vote.

I'm hoping the republicans really push for an investigation. I read an account (can't remember source) which said the feds may get involved. I'm hoping they do.

My thinking is that a serious investigation will uncover fraud and I would hope charges are pressed and people go to jail. I don't care who.

It might be just the incentive to get other states and Congress to seriously look at election fraud and take measures to stop it.

[yinkaafrica]

8. This is my concern, as well

We saw 'no paper trail voting' coming two full years before the '04 election yet failed to so much as phase the blatant corruption.
We saw them steal it in '00 and LET them do it again in '04.
If we cannot fix this by '08 I fear we will be done.

[stray cat]

9. The people will have to demand it

If the people make a big enough issue out of it moderate republicans may start listening. However, a large number of people are going to have to get vocal.

The democrats and the people have to also come up with a catchy way to frame it that will make anyone who doesn't back it looks really bad.

[MoonRiver]

13. What makes me tired is always feeling like it's up to "the people".

What happened to the Democratic leadership? I don't know how far out on a limb I'm willing to put myself unless I know that the national leadership has my back. I no longer think that is the case.

[Benhurst]

14. The main stream media barely reported the massive anti-Iraq-war

protests. What makes you think they will report demands for ballot reform?

It's the old paradox of a tree falling in the forest with no one to hear it.

It is my understanding the Speaker of the House would not allow any blackbox ballot reform onto the floor of the House of Representatives during the last session. I doubt if he will act any differently this session now that his power has be enhanced by yet another corrupt election.

We have a one-party government which gained power by way of a coup in 2000 and has maintained its power with rigged elections ever since. The ballot box is no long an effective engine for change.

The old republic is dead. And I fear we have another Bush in our future-- Jeb.

[Liberty Belle]

12. I believe it can happen now.

Thanks to brave Barbara Boxer and the others who stood up in Congress, the media is finally starting to cover this. Astoundingly, a CNN poll as of last night showed 65% of the people think the election should be investigated. Our local NBC TV station's poll showed similarly strong support--in a Republican area!

Word is getting out. As the public outrage grows and conservatives turn to their own elected officials demanding electoral reform, and as the media shines the light at least through some local publications that still tell the truth, I think Congress will ultimately be forced to grit their teeth and cooperate.

Rossi's whining in Washington state works to Dems advantages, I think, because it makes even Republicans start wondering if their votes were counted fairly.

Keep the pressure up, all. Now is the time to increase our efforts, not slack off. Organize groups of citizens and demand face time with your representatives. If they think they're going to make the local TV news with a bunch of picketers carrying signs saying "Senator (fill in the name) supports rigged elections" and
"We need paper ballots now!" I'll bet he'd change his tune.

[yinkaafrica]

17. I hope DU gets behind this movement

There is no time to waste

[FreepFryer]

38. Also, remember the current initiatives underway in Congress:

Grabbed from the Nashua Advocate.

* an ongoing investigation into the November election by the non-partisan Congressional General Accountability Office.

* an ongoing investigation by the Democratic National Committee's Voting Rights Institute.

* an ongoing investigation (with a one hundred-page report) by Members of the House Judiciary Committee -- and will lead to future bi-partisan hearings before that same Committee.

* Senator Tom Harkin (D-IA) publicly voiced support for a constitutional amendment making voting -- and having one's vote counted -- an enumerated U.S. Constitutional right (which it is not currently, as few are aware).

* Senator Christopher Dodd (D-CT) promised on the floor of the U.S. Senate that the broken/yet-to-implemented Help America Vote Act will be fixed.

* Senator Hillary Clinton (D-NY) forged an agreement with Senator Boxer (D-CA) to re-introduce legislation in the Senate requiring a paper-audit for all electronic voting machines currently in service in the United States.

* Senator Diane Feinstein (D-CA) sponsored a bill proposing the abolition of the Electoral College -- a bill now supported by at least one Republican Senator, Lincoln Chafee (R-RI).

[Catbird]

22. They're not all against it

I looked at the list of 157 cosponsors of HR2239, a house bill to amend HAVA to included voter verified paper trails, among other things. Right there along with John Conyers and a lot of other Democrats is my Republican representative, Joe Wilson(SC), a man not often accused of being a moderate. But he is supporting election integrity. If he's willing to deal with this as a nonpartisan issue (as it should be), I have some hope that we might have enough folks in Congress to actually pass some reasonable modifications to HAVA.

So don't give up on this (at least not yet). Contact your senators and representative no matter what their party.

HR2239 is not the whole answer to election problems, but it appears to be a move in the right direction. It is the House bill supported by VerifiedVoting.org, whose web site contains links to further information about the bills.

[newyawker99]

28. Hi Catbird!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[corbett]

23. There's Only One Way - With Kerry In The White House

We know this, they know this and he knows this. That's why he is in the Middle East with Jimmy Carter right now and that's why he will git ta startin' somethin' somethin' upon his return.

Don't Stop Thinkin' About Tomorrow

[DoYouEverWonder]

45. He better

because if Kerry doesn't step up to the plate soon and lead, then there will be nothing left to lead. The train is leaving the station and I certainly hope he plans to get on board. We need a good engineer to drive this thing.

Kerry's fate is in his own hands. He can either go down in history has a savior or a collaborator. I hope he is making the right choice.

[berniew1]

24. There was so much fraud and dirty play thats easy to document; that it sho

should be no trouble. The touchscreen fraud, other fraud, dirty tricks, suppression of minorities, and students were so flagrant and obvious that its easy to document. Just have to spread the word and
there's no way that major reform won't happen. And the documentation
implies lots of malfeasance and illegal actions committed, so lots should be followed up on, with appropriate actions- that shoud be suppotive of reform.
There was widespread and systematic voter suppression of minority voters, dirty tricks, vote machine fraud, dirty tricks and other vote manipulation in Ohio, New Mexico, and Florida- that was of magnitude enough to call in question who won those states.

http://www.flcv.com/fraudpat.html
http://www.flcv.com/EIRSFla.html
http://northnet.org/minstrel/alpage.htm
http://www.freepress.org/departments/display/19
http://www.helpamericarecount.org/NewMexicoData/NewMexicoGeneralElection.pdf
http://www.flcv.com/bernalil.html
etc.

and also similar patterns in other states where the suppression and fraud did not change the election results including vote machine fraud in Calif., Pennsylvania, Washington, Texas, etc.
http://www.flcv.com/orangets.html
http://www.flcv.com/snohomis.html
http://www.flcv.com/mercerco.html
http://www.votersunite.org
etc.

(the voter suppression of minorities in Mercer County is the worst I've ever seen-followup needed)

The unethical and illegal actions were so systematic and widespread that this cannot be allowed to continue uninvestigated and unpunished. There was a huge amount of obvious malfeasance and dirty tricks that should be investigated and dealt with
http://www.flcv.com/dirtytrf.html
http://www.flcv.com/EIRSFla2.html
http://northnet.org/minstrel/alpage.htm
http://www.votersunite.org

[BigBearJohn]

25. Something must be done before B* takes over the internet. Then what?

[Liberty Belle]

27. Then we print flyers and swamp our local communities.

[helderheid]

29. it's a non-partisan issue

and not all republicans are neo-cons. You appeal for fair election reforms to those who truly care about democracy, democrats and republicans alike.

[garybeck]

30. I think you are underestimating the power of the neocons

there was already election reform presented... bills in both house and senate have been collecting dust. neocon leadership prevented them from being voted on. doesn't matter if some repubs would have voted for it. it never came to a vote.

[joeunderdog]

34. They have been richly rewarded for cheating. IT WORKS.

The Kerry collapse was merely a reinforcement for the plan. The revolt? Power to the people?--(they laugh.)They no longer need to bow to public pressure, because they will be voted in anyway with their own machines. A few sound bites for the press, a little lip service...and presto! the fraud machine rolls on.

Things will get worse now. They got the control before we could stop them. Now they have taken our tools to effect any change. Our only hope is--hold on to your hat--some honest republicans taking stands when Jr. gets too greedy. We're seeing splashes of it, but it won't do much.

Jeb is scheduled for coronation in January 2009.

[NationalEnquirer]

31. Exactly.

Look at the situation in Washington state.
On the local level, where it counts, Republicans will want election reform too.
The key is too keep it on the agenda, on the front burner.
Thats what we need to think about, how to go about doing that.

[Philly Buster]

47. Both parties perpetuate fraud and it will take grassroots efforts

of people in both parties to stop it.

[Pirate Smile]

32. kick

[DearAbby]

35. Kick

:kick: I wrote to my Senators, One Dem, one GOP. I plan to be a squeeky wheel...Get vocal.

[mzmolly]

33. Ding ding! This is why we did NOT want every Democrat to contest the

election. WE NEED the Republicans to vote with us on reform! If every Dem on the Senate would have contested the election, the bittnerss and desire to "get even" would have made reform impossible.

Imagine every Democratic Senator saying Bush is illegitimate and then approaching the Republicans to support a bill that basically says "your guy is in because of fraud." AINT.GONNA.HAPPEN.

Thankfully most of the R's don't believe fraud elected W, so they haven't much reason not to support reform.

* McCain/Feingold sound familiar? It was only the beginning of much needed bi-partisan election reform.

I'm off for the night.

:hi:

[nmoliver]

43. I don't agree at all

Most of us are way past the point where we think that being nice to the Republicans will buy us a reciprocated willingness to compromise. On the contrary, it convinces us they have a weak enemy and it emboldens them further. This is their whole history and how they have seized power.

<<Thankfully most of the R's don't believe fraud elected W, so they haven't much reason not to support reform.>> You're joking, right? You think that what they have publicly said is what they really think? Of course they know they are in power because of fraud. And that is why they have blocked all real electoral form, pushing for electronic voting, holding up "paper trails" in committee and ensuring that big money stays in politics.

You don't think they are in power because they are dull and clueless, do you?

[Pooka Fey]

36. Here's my idea how. With enforcement of the 1965 Voting Rights Act.

Hi MyPetRock - just my .02 on your post. Maybe we DUers can file a class action lawsuit citing violations of the Voting Rights Act. Here's my post from this evening:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=276145&mesg_id=276145

[euler]

37. Well then...

...obviously, the first step has to be taking back congress.

[Amaryllis]

39. I have asked the same question.The one way I can see

is if we flood their phone lines, fax lines, inboxesetc like we did prior to Jan. 6...if enough demand is put on them...we don't know how many KNOW about machine fraud and are either complicit or commmitting it...if enough of the ones who aren't, who still have any concern about what massive numbers of their constituents think get huge amounts of demands like they did before Jan. 6, I am hoping maybe there would be some action.

[Oversea Visitor]

41. You are all asleep and still is asleep

The 2000 election was stolen from the voters, plain and simple, So what was done? No a friggin thing.

No come 2004, they got smarter, implement machine that count the vote without paper receipts. No more proof, cant be counted.

In 2006, oh yeah same system in place, Boxer Rebellion become old news, same old story, no receipts no proof, same computer and a stronger Republicans and Democrats who want to maintain the system.

Why bother with election for President in 2008. Jeb Bush will win. The hand that control the computer will decide the vote. Maybe Jeb dont look good .... lots of good choice there anyway for who want to be President.

I see some saying 4 more years. Oh yes 4 more years to suffer in silence. Gee go to sleep for 4 years. When you wake up and take a peep it be gone. Haha, gone?? who is going to do it? Your Fairy Godmother?

How many will be in DC come Jan 20th? Couple of thousands maybe, other will be fast asleep. GET OVER IT. MOVE ON. GO BACK TO SLEEP.
Either that or grow a SPINE.

[Carolab]

42. The Democrats and the "people" need to keep making it an issue.

Then, if the Republicans continue to fight reform, they will look awfully suspect, won't they?

[DoYouEverWonder]

46. Fortunately, most election law is legislated on the State level

Any State with the Dems in control can lead the way and start enacting meaningful election reforms. That will force the other states to follow suit.

On the federal level, it's going to be almost impossible unless some of our DEM leadership get spine implants from Conyers and Boxer. In the meantime, we need to continue to send them everything that we find that builds the case that the 2004 General Election was rigged in numerous ways, that 99% of the time favored Bush, which was statistically impossible if all of these problems were just 'glitches'.

[anaxarchos]

48. All that's needed is a national program....

Packaged up as an ammendment is good, not because it will be easy to pass, but because it brings focus and unity (think ERA). Then, state by state while waiting for it to "pass" nationally. Legislatures where practical. Referendum in others. Border/battleground states first.

[The Straight Story]

49. Best Way I can think of:

A huge public push/campaign to get congress to (as I have said many times before) replace their voting methods to be like what they want us to have. No receipt, no way to know who voted on what, on a machine we could get from some die hard dems in san fran or something.

Then they would be telling us how bad that would be - well, how do we know our vote was recorded correctly? What if legislation passed but we took an exit poll afterwards and we think it really failed? Et al

[jsascj]

50. It's not

Which is why it was so important to uncover the fraud during THIS one.

We are forever more doomed to ruled by the Bush Dynasty.