I'm doing my best not to believe this election was stolen but..

[kentuck]

when so many folks at DU believe otherwise, it would be unwise to ignore the smoke. I don't know if there is proof on a large scale yet but it would be naive to think Bush and Rove are not capable of such tricks. It's simply too "un-American" to think about. No one that loves this country would do such a dastardly act....But, do they love this country? Or do they love power more? It's unthinkable to many of us.

Yet, I cannot sweep it out of my mind and say it is only a conspiracy theory by a bunch of sore losers. Where there is smoke, there is fire. We need an answer. We need an investigation of these machines. If there is indeed the fraud that some suggest, these people need to be put away for the rest of their lives. We cannot rest until there is resolution of these lingering questions.

[alevensalor]

1. Oh the machines are definitely broken

How bad is the question, as well as wondering why all the 'mistakes' favored the GOP.

~A!

[Expat_Kristen]

2. Bush had no idea

I'm convinced that, if this was stolen, (and I too am trying hard NOT to have to believe that) Bush had no idea. That'd be way too risky.

[Old and In the Way]

6. Yes, he's been clueless since he won the governorship.

You underestimate his culpability at your own peril, my friend.

[Cha]

11. No wonder bush is acting so

fucking cocky then if what you say would be true.

Then again..bush doesn't need a reason..sociopaths have no conscience!

[springhill]

18. I was thinking that for awhile.........

But then I remembered that earlier that day or the day before he made a statement that I find very curious now. He said that there should be no prolonged fight like last year after the election.. He wouldn't say that if he thought he might be on the losing end. You know they would do everything in their power to turn it around.

Also, when they showed Bush and his family all snuggled together on election night he made a comment about the exit polls not being correct. To me that is another sign that he knew it would be turning his way.

[Chelsea Patriot]

26. The Whole Family Knew.

And now we do, too.

[txindy]

32. I think you're right

Poppy's father, Prescott, would be so proud of his patriotic son. Not. His mother was appalled at the Willie Horton ads against Dukakis. HA! That was nothing.

[HappinessPie]

30. I had the exact same thought when I heard that: "The fix is IN"

[pretzel4gore]

21. he got a new texas drivers licence in '95

because texas D of MV records all infractions on the licence, so geebush was the only person in history to have a new number issued, this 5 years before the first election run. Your trust and faith is usually admirable, but not viz the busheviks. they are pure evil

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

3. Amen.

Tessify.

[Old and In the Way]

4. Watch Bush's Brain, kentuck.

You will find the answer in the movie. It's all about power for Rove/Bush.

[HappinessPie]

5. Agree. That movie cemented for me the idea that Rove would stop at nothing

[MatrixEscape]

9. I just saw it on Showtime ....

It really is a must see. The information on Rove tactics makes many things crystal clear.

[sunnybrook]

25. where can I get that movie?

I kept hoping it would play in a theater here, along with "The Hunting of the President" but neither did that I know of. Are they out on video or dvd?

[Spock_is_Skeptical]

28. You can watch Bush's Brain online here:

http://bushlies2.us/bltv/bltv_chan11.html

[HappinessPie]

29. Yep - I watched them both on DVD from Hollywood Video

[mzmolly]

7. I agree. And regardless of what we find we need to eliminate these

machines so that the public will have faith in the process.

[shraby]

10. Have you read this yet? The election was stolen

and this guy knows who and how.

<http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x27340>

[davhill]

8. Rove and Bush didn't do it alone

All we have to do is wait for an insider to develop a conscience and blow the whistle. A lot of the media may be bought off but they couldn't bury a story like that.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

12. Just check this site... and ask yourself... if there was "X" at stake in

2000, there is 10X at stake in 2004... so don't think they would not engineer a repeat performance... everything points to the possibility that they would do ANYTHING to remain in control of the economy, the military, the "corporate investigations going on" the energy task force records... etc etc etc....

www.unprecedented.org

[shance]

13. What it does say if it was rigged, which I believe it was,

it says that there arent as many manic voters frantically driving to the polls to vote against gay marriage.

My question is why are they trying to ignite such division between Americans?

[w13rd0]

14. When my brother...

...a Republican for his entire adult life, who switched to Kerry out of frustration just three months ago, calls me on the day after, and starts ranting and forwarding me links to what we're now calling "questionable instances", and who is totally not the sort to go in for conspiracy theories, well...W&Co perpetrated fraud, and the media is facilitating...

[billyoc]

15. What are we going to do,

start assuming that * is playing fair now? Since when has he ever deserved the benefit of the dount about anyfuckingthing? :grr:

[GettysbergII]

16. Diebold is joined at the hip to the Dominionists and the CNP

Robert Ahmanson was the main money man of R.J. Rushdoony, the founder of Dominionism and the Council for National Policy (CNP), the politoburo of the religious right. I strongly urge everyone who hasn't already to read this article in its entirety. Then do Google searches on Dominionism and the Council for National Policy. Be dismayed, be very dismayed.

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0225-05.htm

In the early 1980s, brothers Bob and Todd Urosevich founded ES&S’s originator, Data Mark. The brothers Urosevich obtained financing from the far-Right Ahmanson family in 1984, which purchased a 68% ownership stake, according to the Omaha World Herald. After brothers William and Robert Ahmanson infused Data Mark with new capital, the name was changed to American Information Systems (AIS). California newspapers have long documented the Ahmanson family’s ties to right-wing evangelical Christian and Republican circles.

In 2001, the Los Angeles Times reported, “. . . primarily funded by evangelical Christians – particularly the wealthy Ahmanson family of Irvine – the institute’s $1-million annual program has produced 25 books, a stream of conferences and more than 100 fellowships for doctoral and postdoctoral research.” The chief philanthropists of the Discovery Institute, that pushes creationist science and education in California, are Howard and Roberta Ahmanson.

According to Group Watch, in the 1980s Howard F. Ahmanson, Jr. was a member of the highly secretive far-Right Council for National Policy, an organization that included Lieutenant Colonel Oliver North, Major General John K. Singlaub and other Iran-Contra scandal notables, as well as former Klan members like Richard Shoff. Ahmanson, heir to a savings and loan fortune, is little reported on in the mainstream U.S. press. But, English papers like The Independent are a bit more forthcoming on Ahmanson’s politics.

“On the right, figures such as Richard Mellon Scaife and Howard Ahmanson have given hundreds of millions of dollars over several decades to political projects both high (setting up the Heritage Foundation think-tank, the driving engine of the Reagan presidency) and low (bankrolling investigations into President Clinton’s sexual indiscretions and the suicide of the White House insider Vincent Foster),” wrote The Independent last November.....

........Bob Urosevich was the Programmer and CEO at AIS, before being replaced by (Republican Senator Chuck) Hagel. Bob now heads Diebold Election Systems and his brother Todd is a top executive at ES&S. Bob created Diebold’s original electronic voting machine software. Thus, the brothers Urosevich, originally funded by the far Right, figure in the counting of approximately 80% of electronic voting in the United States.

[Greenbeard]

17. well said Kentuck

i am feeling the same way. Don't want to believe it was stolen but the evidence is mounting. Something stinks.

[gristy]

19. Here's one thing to consider...

How many republicans signed on as cosponsors for H.R. 2239, Rush Holt's Voter Verification bill?

Here's a link to the 157 who did sign up: http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/D?d108:16:./temp/~bdtFRM:@@@P
I've spent the last 15 minutes trying to find a list of congresspersons which shows their party, but cannot. My guess is that of that 157, there are very few Republicans. I seem to remember that when I was following the bill (and got a family friend to convice NY Rep. Mike McNulty to sign on as cosponsor in Jan of this year) that of the first 100 to sign on, none were Republicans. But I really can't say for sure.

I need a list of congresscritters that shows their party!

[lutefisk]

20. If they can avoid a real investigation of the events on 9/11/01

...they can avoid, block, stall, sabatoge an investigation of 11/2/04. At least that's my concern.

[gristy]

22. In May of this year I went to DC to sit in on one of the EAC's public

meetings (EAC = Election Assistance Commission). The lowlight of the interviews was one of Mark Radke, director of Diebold marketing. He described their product like a very crooked salesman would try to sell a Pinto. Below are some paraphrased quotes of his (I took 12 pages of notes that day):

Successful voting standards
Reach... height... voice guidance
Voters in wheelchairs can approach the machine from the side or the front
Allows curbside voting
The machine stores 5,000 ballot styles - unmatched in industry :eyes:
Zero security problems :eyes:
Diebold machines are never networked onto the internet or within the precinct :eyes:

[TomNickell]

23. It's a lot of votes to hack-----Plausible Scenario?

The Repubs used every vote suppression and nasty trick they could think of. There's no question they would rig the votes, if they could. Problem is, it's hard to see how. We're talking 3 million votes in the popular vote. Not a few hundred in a single state.

Electronic machines are not as secure as they should be. But hacking into them can't be trivial. And OH mostly uses paper.

Tabulations are done by hundreds of individual local officials, with party reps watching them. Shenanigans can lose hundreds of votes, but 130,000?

To get past the Conspiracy Theory stage, there needs to be a Plausible Scenario. Which people did what, when to change the vote count by millions of votes. Doesn't have to be the True Story, just a story that sounds plausible.


edited to add the last paragraph

[Oak2004]

24. The problem is not so much the touch screens

As it appears to be in the optical tabulators. So yes, there's a paper trail here, but the Dems aren't asking to look at it!

And believe it or not its easy to screw the votes to the degree that we are seeing, if you do it electronically. Just flip 4 or 5 out of every 100

[sunnybrook]

27. what about this possibility

Maybe Bush won the popular vote. It is EXTREMELY hard for me to believe that this could be true. But what if they did not mess with 3 million votes but perpetuated fraud in Ohio and Florida. I really don't see the realism in the way the media is portraying this. You would think if you watch television only that our country is about 80% evangelical, rural "christians." They supposedly pushed him over the top blah, blah, blah..... but maybe it is a possibility that people bought into his message of fear and being John Wayne against the "axis of evil" and held their noses and voted for him. This still does not necessarily explain Florida and Ohio.

[moondust]

31. Talking heads were complicit.

Ever notice how they endlessly reminded us that THE WORST THING THAT COULD HAPPEN would be another drawn out decision like 2000. Bloody murder! Oh yeah, a quick decision is what we want. Whew, what a relief that it's over. On and on, again and again.

Of course that's exactly what you would want if you had pulled a major fraud: quick decision, CASE CLOSED! CASE CLOSED! MOVE ON! CASE CLOSED!