What is the most common dismissal of election fraud that you hear?

[smartvoter]

Poll question: What is the most common dismissal of election fraud that you hear?

I know these are interrelated, but if forced to choose one, what do you think is the most common?

Also, if you could kick it after you participate, that would be great. It would be nice to get 100 or so votes so we have a decent sample.

[El Supremo]

1. The Democrats did it too. n/t

[WildClarySage]

2. Other

(don't know why it wouldn't record my vote?)

"This isn't the first election in which fraud took place and it won't be the last. Get over it. Your side woulda pulled off fraud too if you coulda got away with it."

[Zan_of_Texas]

3. No election is perfect, but the minor flaws didn't change the result.

[Pacifist Patriot]

25. That's the one I hear the most.

[bush_is_wacko]

4. I actually haven't heard any excuses yet, except here and on the freeper

sites. Everyone I know either isn't talking about it or BELIEVES it occurred. EVERY computer person I know says it is easy as pie and can be done a number of ways.

I didn't vote because I guess that doesn't fall under other.

[smartvoter]

8. I find the same. Tech-savvy people only have to hear of one

machine with a problem before they say they're all bad. The tech gap is killing us with the public and with our elected officials. Keep in mind the Clinton jokes about sending just one e-mail in his entire presidency. This is a huge problem for us.

[bush_is_wacko]

11. I agree the gap is an obstacle but there are BOTH Republican and Dem

techies! If the Dem's can find the evidence, there will be Repugs that believe it. From what I can tell, some of them already do. I'm kind of the wait and see type anyway. I like detective novels with LOTS of information and long drawn out investigations. They usually make for a better story. That's kind of how I think about this mess. It is already moving at an astounding pace compared to previous issues that effected our government. I hope they are taking their time checking the trail MANY times so that the evidence will be as substantial as possible.

[smartvoter]

12. The Rep techies I know are much more open to the possibility than

those who don't earn their bread and butter in IT.

[bush_is_wacko]

21. For sure. I f you know how the system works, you know how possible it is

to hack it. There are many on both political sides that know the system. Some will deny it till their dying breath, but MANY others will admit how easy it is for someone with the knowledge to do what is being suggested. Corporations do EXACTLY what is being discussed every day!

[smartvoter]

55. That's the funny part. The bus. equivalent happens all the time. nt

[Der Blaue Engel]

30. Isn't that interesting?

I've noticed that the only place I hear vigorous arguments that "fraud didn't occur" is here on DU. (I don't frequent freep sites.) Weird, eh?

Others doubt the election results, but say "there's nothing we can do about it." Which I reject.

[GreenPartyVoter]

5. It's all about the media, baby.

----------------------------------------------------------
Save our country one town, county, and state at a time!
http://timeforachange.bluelemur.com/electionreform.htm#why

[kerry-is-my-prez]

6. This just points out that the media is our biggest problem.....

n/t

[meganmonkey]

7. It doesn't matter anyway - there's nothing we can do about it

It always has happened, it always will happen. blah blah blah

:eyes:

on edit: this was my 'other' - not my opinion!

[smartvoter]

9. 25 responses so far. nt

[KansDem]

10. Other: "There's been election fraud since George Washington"

I posted this on another thread:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x277972#278091

I asked my freeperesque sister about election fraud last week...

Edited on Tue Jan-11-05 03:21 PM by KansDem
She and I don't talk politics, but we suddenly got into a debate on the phone last week.

I asked her about election fraud in general and Ohio specifically and her response was, "Oh, there's been election fraud since George Washington..."

I couldn't believe my ears! Unfortunately, we concluded our call immediately after that statement, so I didn't have a chance to hear her explain that choice remark. I wanted to tell her "Yes, and there's been theft, rape, and murder since Day One, but we still continue to prosecute the malefactors when we catch them..."

But it left me with a extremely pessimistic view of our nation's future...

on edit: So is this the new meme among the right-wingers? That election fraud exists so "so what? Why worry about Ohio?"


How do you even BEGIN to change this mind?

[danostuporstar]

13. the subject (election fraud) came up at lunch today

and one of my coworkers literally responded "Well why didn't Michael Moore donate the profits from F9/11?" i just can't understand how illogical some people are about anything remotely anti-*.

p.s. i voted for "sore loser" as most often my facts get simply dismissed with "typical democrat".

[spooked911]

14. The conspiracy one is what I've heard the most.

#2 that there was no fraud found,
#3that the Democrats haven't objected so it can't be a problem.

[DireStrike]

15. Other: He couldn't have stolen 3 million votes

Which is false.

[m.standridge]

33. I actually answered this one, once: "Electoral College"

Yes, I said, Bush was winning the Popular vote. But he was losing in the Electoral College, "like Gore seemed to last time," I said. My foe paused, blinked. "It's not about three million votes. It's about the Electoral College. They're saying Bush cheated to get the 120,000 votes it took, to get Ohio so he'd win in the Electoral College. Otherwise, he'd lose like Gore did last time when he couldn't carry Florida."
At this point, the response almost seemed regret:
"Well, I just think they should ignore the Electoral College altogether."
"If they did that," I then countered, "Bush wouldn't have won last time."

[super simian]

16. There is no way...

...that Bush could have stolen 3,000,000 votes. There is no way that a conspiracy that huge could have been hidden. These are the main arguments that I hear.

:wtf:

[smartvoter]

18. Sounds like the tech-savvy gap. Doesn't take a big conspiracy. nt

[super simian]

39. Zackly!

Most people believe what they want to believe.... Or... what Karl Rove wants them to believe!

:dunce:

[RaleighNCDUer]

17. Actually, I don't personally hear any of them.

For some reason, all the Bushbots I know have stopped talking to me. My theory is that they all saw the rampant fraud, and are hesitant to mention it. They know they can't defend their Fuhrer's "victory".

[smartvoter]

19. Kick for the evening shift. nt

[satya]

20. Kick. n/t

[burn the bush]

22. theres always been cheating at the elections

thats the attitude i get. Like its nothing new. The dems do it all the time kind of thing.

[Emit]

23. This article from AlterNet made be really angry today...

http://www.alternet.org/story/20934/

Election 2004: Stolen or Lost
<<snip>>
Many of us fear that the Ohio election was stolen because people – like talk-show sleuths, blogger number-crunchers, forensic attorneys, crusading professors and partisan activists – keep telling us so. We don't even know most of these people, yet we gladly forward their e-mails and web links, their pronouncements, analyses, essays and statistical exercises. While their credentials may not be that impressive, we listen to their conspiracy theories because – frightened by the direction our country has taken – we want to believe them...
<<snip>>

...I, too, was alarmed by charges that outright fraud might have changed the outcome of the most important presidential election in recent times. So I recently traveled to Ohio – where I connected with a group of attorneys who were fighting to have the Ohio presidential results overturned, and the state – and, by extension, the presidency – awarded to Kerry. In legal pleadings known collectively as the "Contest" these attorneys are not shy about using the F-word...
<<snip>>

Voting Irregularities

Charge: Misallocation of voting machines
Finding: True
Intentional? Probably not...

<<snip>>

Charge: Miscounting of absentee votes
Finding: False

...Suleman explains that the poll books Lange looked at had been printed before absentee voting ended – including those who voted in the final days before the election at the Board's offices. The books would – according to practice – be updated to include everyone. Like Anthony in Franklin County, Suleman is a Democrat.

Charge: Tampering with voting machines
Finding: Probably false

There were a number of anecdotal claims that personnel from voting machine companies came into several counties and seemed to do something improper with the machines before the recount began. I had the opportunity to listen to an audio tape of a film crew interviewing an official of Triad, a ballot counting contractor accused on the internet of various indiscretions – in which the man appears to be very patiently and logically explaining the exact role of company personnel in preparing machines for recounts. I asked Contest attorneys if they wanted to listen to the tape, but they were too busy rushing out filings – which included allegations involving Triad....
<<snip>>

..."I think incompetence is the most likely explanation in most of these cases," says Mark Griffin, who ran the legal team for Kerry that oversaw the provisional ballot count and recount in Cuyahoga. "If there's fraud, it's in the tabulation. But it wouldn't be in Cuyahoga, where we got a big turnout."

Challengers May Have Good Intentions But Bad Facts

The lawyers on the Contest team are well-meaning, intelligent people. However, like all lawyers, they're about arguing their side, not getting to the bottom of things. Each time I checked in, one of them (always the same person, always insisting that our conversations were "off the record") would introduce a new operative theory of what had happened, of what "evidence" was the most meaningful indicator of the shenanigans that had gone on.

By the day I left, my "source" was telling me that the legal discovery process was not going well, and so they could not, in a timely fashion, get the information needed to show how the "fraud" was perpetrated.

Attorney Don McTigue, a senior official in the Ohio Secretary of State's office when a Democrat held the office, now devotes his entire legal practice to elections. "We don't have evidence of fraud," says McTigue, who represented the Kerry campaign for the recount...
<<snip>>

You wouldn't have much of a case for conspiracy if you didn't have Secretary of State J. Kenneth Blackwell. As Ohio's chief elections official and the Bush state campaign chairman, he was already juggling a couple of hats that should have been nowhere near each other. Furthermore, Bush traveled to Ohio on election day to meet with Blackwell. There's no doubt that Blackwell consistently ruled in a manner that seemed to favor Bush. But the impact of these rulings on the election was probably minimal...

<<snip>>

Charge: Voting company fraud
Finding: Unlikely

As for Diebold and other vilified companies, in all probability, they didn't, and wouldn't, risk the ignominy and consequences of fixing an election....

Charge: Exit poll results were more accurate than actual ballots
Finding: False
Explanation of Problem: Imperfect nature of polls

Now to the central issue: the claim that exit polls, which never lie, showed Kerry winning. Our understanding of this – and the argumentation in the Contest – is based largely on an analysis by Steven F. Freeman, Ph.D. But Freeman is not an expert in polling...

<<snip>>
Conclusions

While it's appallingly easy to mess around with a computer, it's a lot more difficult to rig an election.

To have a conspiracy of this magnitude, you'd need more than a bunch of individual mishaps – you need a plan and coordination. And you'd need a large number of collaborators willing to commit felonious and treasonous behavior of the highest order...

<<snip>>

Half-baked conspiracy theories are damaging to the public confidence in democracy. We could use a few less conspiracy theorists, and a few more Griffins. It takes a pretty big person to admit that one's own side screwed up, or was simply bested in a fight (even a nasty one), or to accept, and tackle, the growing alienation of potential voters in America. And the unexciting, labor-intensive process of analyzing and fixing the machinery of the people's will.
<<snip>>

[smartvoter]

40. Interesting how rebuttals are never on the facts. nt

[Salomonity]

51. but can you refute it?

I'm sorry the piece bothered you--but that doesn't make it wrong. I'm sorry, but we lost. And it wasn't through fraud in Ohio.

[Tuesday_Morning]

24. I hear: With a 3 million vote lead...

no amount of fraud would make a difference.

Lots of folks just don't get the pitfalls of computer voting.

[smartvoter]

26. Coming up on 60. Would be nice to get a few dozen more. nt

[Emit]

28. I count at least 5 in the article above...

--election "mistakes"--not intentional
--denial
--voting machine companies wouldn't dare
--imperfect nature of polls
--bad facts...

Though some of those might also be found in above posts.

[katinmn]

27. The MSN not covering it illegitimizes it for a lot of people

When you start explaining that it's not in the media's interest to cover it because most media organizations are owned by a handful of big corporations, their eyes start glazing over, and they don't listen.

[locomotion]

29. other

What are you talking about- election what?

[Democrat Dragon]

31. Here's my list:

1."But Kerry conceeded!"
2."Bush was ahead by 3.5 million votes!"
3."I find that hard to believe"
4."Just get over it"

Those who said #3 and #4 are very naive about how evil Repukes are.

And (Drumroll please) The stupidest answer I recieved:

"Bush could not have stolen it, he got more votes"

ROTFL!
:puke:

[m.standridge]

32. Yes, Tex said it: "not enough numbers

to turn it around"--and it's the one I can't readily answer, but THEY WON'T LET US COUNT THE VOTES, just as with Florida.
No one can say "so and so got those votes" if the votes are never counted to begin with.
They make excuses to keep from counting them. In Nevada, the judge said it was because allowing disenfranchised voters to vote wouldn't constitute enough numbers to turn it around.
In New Mexico, they said the numbers of "phantom" votes and other phenomena, (were these PSYCHIC phenomena?--just kidding) wouldn't add up to enough numbers to turn it around.
And, in Ohio, all those individual complaints, each county or precinct, the answer is "while this wouldn't have been enough votes to turn the election around...".
In other words, numbers. We need to get some numbers, some big enough numnbers to turn Ohio around.
That means, a group of fairly quick things, that can demonstrate over 118,000 more votes for Kerry than for Bush. Actually, 119,000 would probably be better. They're probably there, but how long would it take us to come up with them? Until we do, "while this wouldn't have been enough votes to turn the election around" is a powerful whuppin' stick.

[BobMorr]

34. the media controls it

Who ever controls the media wins.

[smartvoter]

35. That's a depressing statement. nt

[Zan_of_Texas]

42. Yup.

Even in Congress, one of the Rs said it -- "if we were just talking about 118 votes, rather than 118,000 votes, then " bla bla bla it would be worth their time, instead of 'wasting' their time on this 'frivolous, partisan' exercise.

Here's my response:

You can't tell the winner unless you have the score.

You can't tell the score when the scoreboard is broken.

And, the scoreboard is B R O K E N.

(Based on just an impression of who you think got more baskets or goals -- it would have to be Kerry -- that's who got new voters, and young voters to vote for him. The Kerry/Dem registration and get out the vote programs were very successful. Kerry voters crowded the polls. And Kerry voters told exit pollsters they voted for him. So, without a scoreboard completely, the impression would be, yeah, Kerry won. But, we need to know the score.)

[mousie]

36. I've heard 'em all sooo many times, except

"It can't happen in America." Not once have I heard that one! Still, "It would be on the news" seems most popular.

~kick~

[mousie]

48. Dems are tryin' to cheat by doing recounts!

I forgot that one... sheesh, that one always gets me!!!

[RevCheesehead]

37. Dismissal by whom - the general public, Dems, or Us??

Because those answers may vary by mileage.

[smartvoter]

38. General public. nt

[smartvoter]

41. Bump for the night shift. nt

[ccarter84]

43. my professor thinks that the irregularities were due to

incompetance on a local level, and couldnt' be pulled off on a national scale...well I have all semester to open her mind

[IndyPriest]

44. I'm not hearing a real dismissal as much as

"What are you talking about? We haven't heard anything about this. It's not been in our papers or on TV." They're willing to talk about it, even think about it -- ONCE they HEAR about it.

[TruthIsAll]

45. Exit polls are inaccurate. The votes are very accurate.

Heads are exploding. Myths abound. Disinformation is rampant.

Really, the problem is that very few people understand the statistics of polling. And the ones that do, who claim Bush won, are in denial or have an agenda that is stronger than the truth.

[TNMOM]

46. "You're just a sore loser"

That's what I hear a lot form thug colleagues.

[zimba]

47. The one I keep getting is "look, we know you hate Bush, OK. We

got the message, now drop it!"

[Carolab]

49. Other: BIG, BLANK STARE. n/t

[formernaderite]

50. I've been told "Get over it, Kerry lost"...by democrats...

and I'm not even one of the conspiracy nuts...I just try to make people aware that there still remain many questions and discrepancies regarding the outcome of the election, including ballot access.

[Citizen Jane]

67. That's what I keep hearing

Of course, this from my moderate conservative husband (at least he voted for Kerry) who worships at the altar of Ronnie Raygun.

Thank goodness I can rack up phone bills chatting about it with my Dad!!!

[johnaries]

52. Other: most common response - Huh? What?

After I start to explain, the next response is "doesn't matter now,the election's over"

[shiina]

53. "Dems too" I think they're confusing it with

I keep hearing "Well, Democrats do it, too."

I think they're thinking of people who vote twice and other "small time" fraudsters. Must've been all of that MSM coverage of Dems registering Micky Mouse, etc...

[smartvoter]

54. Kick for morning crew. nt

[denese]

56. tax return the same?

A Republican voter told me yesterday when I mentioned the voting problems, "My tax return is just as much as it ever was."
What???
Who cares?
Our democracy is falling down around our ears.
What does the amount of one's tax return have to do with it?:wtf:

[smartvoter]

60. Only one answer to that -- WTF?

:wtf:

[tngledwebb]

57. The first one is the most common

and ironically the least credible, to those of us who have been paying attention to MSM the past 10 years.

The veritable media blackout on voting problems in 2000 and especially in '04, is a huge red flag, or smoking gun #1, not to mix metaphors.

[KerryDownUnder]

58. If there was fraud why doesn't the Democratic Party protest the results?

That's the one I've heard. Which I guess is a derivitive of the "Kerry Conceded" choice, but for those friends I have at work who love their Bush that is probably the most popular refrain. Especially during the challenge of Ohio last week. I don't know how many times I heard that Boxer and Conyers were nuts because none of the Democratic representatives on the county election boards in Ohio protested the results, that Kerry had thousands of lawyers in Ohio that didn't protest the results, that the Kerry campaign said on election day that everything was running smoothly, etc., etc., etc.

It's pretty tough when your only response to a Repug who cites your own party's actions as evidence of a lack of fraud is to say those same party leaders have their head up their ass.

[SmokingJacket]

59. "It would be too hard to steal an election, too many people would

have to be involved and they would talk."

I argued this one with a liberal friend, and I think I convinced him. But it's really what I hear the most often.

Usually people have back-up arguments: where's the proof? or one of the above.

[Peace Patriot]

61. I voted for: "If what you say is true, it would be on the news."

Even after the JFK assassination, even after the Martin Luther King assassination, even after the Bobby Kennedy assassination, even after all the lies and coverups of those killings by the media, even after the Vietnam war and all the military lies and the lies about protesters, even after Reagan's treason negotiating with Iran over Carter's head on the hostages (to get Carter out of office) with the media's collusion, even after the secret war on Nicaragua and US-connected mass murders throughout Central America, unreported, even after the first stolen election with facts covered up by the media, even after 9/11 and the air force stand-down over Washington DC, even after the baldfaced 100% lies about Iraq, even after the second stolen election covered up by the media (by-election in '02), even after the FBI showing up miraculously and hanging around for hours against protocol at the Paul Wellstone crash site, even with that being the second death of a liberal in a small airplane in two years, even after the anthrax hitting only Democrats, even after the Swiftboat Liars and every other kind of BushCon liar trumpeted by the media, even after the debates, and even after voting for John Kerry BECAUSE of all the lies, and thievery, and mass murder covered up by the media, still...

somehow...

...even intelligent people think that if it's not in the corporate, war profiteering "news," it's not real.

We have a lot of educatin' to do!

[smartvoter]

62. I agree with you on this. It's also interesting how print pubs have

almost zero weight now. All the newspapers that looked at the swifties easily debunked them but the public didn't know because the broadcast media was keeping it alive to feed on the ratings.

[StephanieMarie]

63. "The People Have Spoken". Makes me want to scream:

Yes, they spoke, but no one listened!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[New Earth]

64. you know what's even worse?

when people say 'yeah, there might have been fraud in this election, but not enough to have affected the outcome'. then they proceed to not give a shit about it.

that's shallow in my opinion. so in other words, these kind of people think that fraud is ok. :eyes:

[smartvoter]

66. Further, how did they measure it? It's a bogus position. nt

[abbiehoff]

65. The media are always the problem

And with our government paying pundits to support bogus programs and initiatives, there doesn't seem to be any hope for anything different. Rove has sent the memo to be sure the Social Security scare is big news so that there will be plenty of public support for his "fix".