WAKE UP!!! THE BIGGEST BATTLE WE HAVE IS GETTING RID OF E-VOTING AND

[bardgal]

GOING TO ALL PAPER BALLOTS, STRICTLY HAND COUNTED, WITH TRANSPARENT OVERSIGHT, AND MANY OBSERVERS. PERIOD!!!!!

I AM GOING TO SCREAM THIS UNTIL EVERYONE HEARS ME AND GETS IT!!!!!!!!

IT WON'T MATTER A DAMN IF WE HAVE OUR OWN EXIT POLLING WHEN WE GET THE SAME RESULT IN '06.

HOW F-ING LONG BEFORE EVERYONE REALIZES THIS? HOW MANY ELECTIONS DO WE HAVE TO LOSE????? WE'VE ALREADY LOST THREE IN A ROW - WILL FOUR BE ENOUGH TO GET OUR ENERGY FOCUSED ON THE FACT THAT E-VOTING JUST MAKES FRAUD THAT MUCH EASIER ON A LARGER SCALE??????

THE MORE TIME GOES BY IS JUST GIVING THEM MORE TIME TO PERSUADE THE MASSES THAT IT WASN'T STOLEN, AND PEOPLE REALLY ARE ALL BORN AGAIN FUNDIES - LOOK WHAT THEY TRIED THIS TIME WITH THEIR BOGUS MORALITY POLLING!!!!

THIS NEEDS TO BE THE ONLY THING WE EXPEND OUR ENERGY ON!!!!! THIS NEEDS TO BE PRIORITY ONE. AND YOU'LL KNOW YOU'VE HIT PAY-DIRT WHEN THE LOT OF THEM FIGHT YOU ON THIS EVERY STEP OF THE WAY.

WAKE THE F-K UP!!!!!!

[Amaryllis]

1. Agree.

[sellitman]

2. Bingo!

Anyone fighting for anything else is just playing into their hands. Nothing else matter. NOTHING!!

The Environment doesn't matter

The Economy doesn't matter

Social Security doesn't matter

Health Care doesn't matter

Crime doesn't matter (unless you are talking about the crime of stealing election)

The Mideast doesn't matter.

Fighting Terrorism doesn't matter.

Nothing matters except purifying our vote. As soon as the Left figures this out and we have MILLIONS of Barbara Boxers. We will have a Repugnican government.

[oscar111]

4. Great orig post. Focus on stolen OH, and Canadian model future:ppr balots

hand counted.

Use "canadian model" term a lot, so folks will be reassured that paper ballots can be done and that an entire thinking nation has endorsed the idea. Some need an example, because some cannot think in theory. Just as some are not good at Reimannian geometry or propositional calculus proofs.

Complexity makes room for tricks. Simplicity chases out the possibility of tricks. Toss ALL vote machines, including paper-trail ones.

Oh, and ballots should be marked with pen, not pencil. Clear plaxtic ballot boxes, stacked atop each other if new boxes needed. Counted immediately ON SITE, no transport, by all p. party's reps.

Any storage, in videotaped camera loaded areas, with human guards and logs.

[Amaryllis]

7. Interesting article on Canadian system:

http://www.canoe.ca/CNEWSUSElection0011/28_canadianelection-ap.html

[qwghlmian]

13. read the article - let's translate those

numbers into US, because I don't think that people who call for paper ballots hand-counted quite realize what is involved.

If US conducted elections in the same way (average 400 voters per precinct), you would have to have at least 900,000 people count the ballots (300K precincts - 1 Chief+2 Observers per precinct). Let's say the average number of races per ballot is 20, and the time to count and record each vote by hand in each race is 5 seconds - that means that the time to count those votes is 400*20*5/3600=11+ hours (with no breaks).

So - not only would you have to wait a couple of days for the results of the election, but the counting would also cost you around $100M (if you pay the counters a low rate of $10/hr). Also, the observers would have to come from the political parties, about 300K people from each party, for a very monotonous task that takes 11+ hours to complete. Do you think the current level of political activism in this country is sufficient to produce such numbers?

[oscar111]

15. qw, your points all fail

the big numbers are all prorated by precinct.

which means the Canadian experience would work here. They count it all the very election night.

further, who minds a two day wait? small price for confidence.

Elections by machine cost MORE. Buy, store, transport, relpace old machines. And stolen elections with bad gov as a result.. price beyond estimating.

[qwghlmian]

16. They count it all election night - but

they only have one race per ballot.

[Amaryllis]

17. That is something I have wondered about. We have so many candidates

and ballot measures as well, and they are different for different parts of the state...how would you hand count that? Sometimes between ballot measures and candidates for city council and judges, etc etc there can be up to thirty or more different items on one ballot.

Is there any kind of machine counting system that is truly secure? There is such debate about this among tech people, I don't know what to believe.

[bardgal]

20. I DON'T CARE HOW LONG IT TAKES, I DON'T CARE IF IT'S A MONTH OR MORE....

NONE OF THAT MATTERS! THIS IS NOT A SPORTING EVENT FOR F-K SAKE PEOPLE! IT'S AN ELECTION. COUNT EVERY LAST VOTE UNTIL IT'S DONE. IT DOESN'T MATTER HOW LONG IT TAKES. IT TOOK LONGER BEFORE WE HAD ELECTRONICS AND CIVILIZATION DIDN'T FALL.

[KansDem]

33. "I DON'T CARE HOW LONG IT TAKES,..."

There was a time when the exit polls so accurately predicted the winner that it didn't matter how long it took to count the paper ballots. Voters knew who won by the end of the evening. But for some strange reason, exit polls started having trouble in 2000, followed by 2002 and 2004; about the same time electronic voting was having problems too!

[Andy_Stephenson]

19. Thanks...

as much as I would like all paper hand counted. It would never work. The US system of voting is far too complex for All paper hand counted.

Opti scans sans the central tabulator...ok that is fine...but to take the one tool away from elections admins that make their jobs easier...is not going to happen.

Also...all paper systems can be rigged just as easily. It is called ballot stuffing.

[bardgal]

21. THAT'S CRAP ANDY - IT CAN AND IT'S IMPERATIVE WE DO IT THAT WAY, OR ELSE-

WE MIGHT AS WELL GIVE UP ON ELECTIONS ENTIRELY. WE CAN FUNCTION WITHOUT TECHNOLOGY. SO WHAT IF IT TAKES TIME.

SO F-ING WHAT??????

I'M MORE THAN HAPPY TO WAIT IF IT'S FAIR AND HONEST. A DEMOCRACY WITH INTEGRITY IS WORTH IT.

[DoYouEverWonder]

38. The optical scanners are a tool

and there is nothing wrong with tools when they are used correctly.

However, if you are going to use optical scanners, all ballots must be counted twice. If you don't get the same number twice, then you hand count that batch.

Andy is right, ballot stuffing is as big a problem. I am convinced that this is were most of the extra votes for Bush came from. The whole absentee ballot situation needs to go back to the way it used to be. You should only get an absentee ballot under certain circumstances. Plus they need to go back to requiring a witness.

Plus the states should be allowed to post their results until at least 24 hours after the election closes. That way any 'glitches' will get corrected before it's too late.

There is no reason in the world that we have to rush to know who won as soon as the polls start closing. The MSM needs to put the public interest ahead of their bottom line on this one. Nothing less will do.

[bardgal]

45. BALLOT STUFFING IS SMALL POTATOES COMPARED WITH E-VOTE FRAUD!!!!

You've got to get past that!!!

[Andy_Stephenson]

54. Ok so it's crap...

King County Washington...in some elections we have up to a 1000 splits. If you can show me a way to count our election in less than six months...please do.

Optical scanners are tried and tested technology. What needs to be taken out of the equation is the central tabulator. Elections in the US are complex and cannot be hand counted effectivly. Humans make mistakes as well.

Also...how do you solve the problem in Ohio...where in some precincts there are damn few Democrats to counter the Republican majority. Do we just assign Republicans to act as Democrats as is happening now in the transportation of ballots?

No!!! Optical scan machines sans the tabulators are a solid technology that when paired with propper auditing and safeguards are fine. So fine in fact I am comfortable in using them. Only without the central tabulator. That again is where the problems are.

[bardgal]

56. There are enough Dems to count. Even if they have to travel to another ...

county. The DIEBOLD optical scanners were off in numerous precincts. Humans make less mistakes - and on smaller scale - human mistakes are easier to catch as well.

[flpoljunkie]

39. The disabled will demand their touchscreens, too. Avi Rubin thinks DRE

voting can be made transparent. He also recommends mandatory, random audits along with the voter-verified paper trails, and not with add-on printers!

Rubin, professor of computer science at Johns Hopkins, wrote this prescient op-ed in the Baltimore Sun a few days before the election in November.

http://www.avirubin.com/vote/op-ed.html

[bardgal]

46. THE DISABLED CAN HAVE ASSISTANCE OR VOTE ABSENTEE! STOP MAKING

EXCUSES!!!

[BamaBecky]

62. I agree

[Peace Patriot]

22. I agree 100%. BUT...the question is HOW do we get it done? KICK!

This is where I've been at since 11/3: THERE IS NO OTHER ISSUE.

And I'm still there, BUT I've come to the following conclusions:

We have to get this done LOCALLY, state by state, with highly focused grass roots groups. This is the only avenue of election rule change left open to us.

Congress is NOT going to fix this, and may make things worse, by reducing or altogether overriding state power over elections--thus leaving the PUBLIC with no avenue of remedy--or, by coming up with some bullshit thing that looks good, but does NOT solve the fundamental problems.

NOTE: What Conyers and Boxer are doing IS HELPFUL. Education! Publicity! Keeping this on the national agenda, in the public consciousness. And they are certainly courageous and straight-thinking, and need to be supported in every respect (including, for instance, Boxer's OTHER battles, such as the Condaleeza Rice nomination--we need to support her and boost her power). But they cannot remedy this fraudulent election system, not in Congress.

BushCons have an even greater majority in Congress now. They have an election system that "selects" THEM and keeps de Fuhrer in the White House. They set it up this way very deliberately. They are not going to give it up. And, given the power situation in Congress, they could mandate electronic voting everywhere, with no paper trail, and exclusive, no bid contracts to BushCon companies tomorrow, and who could stop them?

The Democrats in Congress have no power to fix this. They don't have the votes, and they have a history of corruption, collusion and lack of vigilance. (HAVA = $3.5 BILLION to the states, plus massive wining and dining by Diebold et al.) They LET THIS HAPPEN in the first place. MIND-BOGGLING lack of vigilance! And even if we could turn that around this term--make it Congressional Dems 1st priority, make life impossible for them if they don't--they don't have the power or the votes.

My worst fear--and the most likely thing to happen in Congress--is a NON-solution, something that APPEARS to be good, and gives the politicians "talking points" for their campaigns, but which is either, a) HOT AIR (no fix at all--say, a Constitutional Amendment on voting rights that Gonzales can merely brush aside with all other Constitutional protections, i.e. NO ENFORCEMENT); or b) contains POISON PILLS (such as reducing state power on this matter, or including things like mandating a mere paper RECEIPT that has no status in a recount (to do any good, it has to be a paper BALLOT that takes precedence over electronic tallies in any recount), meanwhile...

...FAILING TO FIX ANY FUNDAMENTAL PROBLEMS, such as BushCon secret, proprietary source code running all the central vote tabulators.

What do you think a compromise between BushCons and weak Democrats is going to look like? (--IF the Democrats can even get them to the table, doubtful in itself).

One thing is VERY CLEAR. We are NOT going to get paper ballots and hand counts from Congress. Both BushCons and Democrats are INVESTED in electronics. Big money involved.

So...

...to the states, my friends! And take no prisoners!

[bardgal]

24. This should be our ONLY focal point of organization.... 59 MILLION people,

according to the "official" results, voted AGAINST this president. That is MORE THAN AGAINST ANY PRESIDENT IN HISTORY.

THIS IS OUR CAUSE. AND THIS ALONE. WE MUST STOP BEING SO SCATTERED, AND STOP THE INFIGHTING. THIS IS THE ONLY CAUSE. WITHOUT IT WE ARE LOST.

I say we start by ORGANIZING A BLITZ TO EVERY PERSON IN CONGRESS. EVERY SINGLE SECRETARY OF STATE, EVERY GOVERNOR, EVERY LOCAL REPRESENTATIVE. AND WE DON'T STOP SCREAMING ABOUT IT. NOT EVER.

FAX, WRITE LETTERS. ORGANIZE PETITTIONS, EVEN ON THE STREET.

Here in CA that's how we get things on the ballots.... but even that might not work since the voting is alreadt stolen. The goal should be to get our representatives to challenge this, and to wake up.

WE ALSO HAVE TO MAKE THIS A VERY SIMPLE MESSAGE:

NO E-VOTING EVER. PAPER-ONLY BALLOTS. STRICTLY HAND COUNTED, WITH TRANSPARENCY, PUBLIC OVERSIGHT, AND NUMEROUS OBSERVERS - INTERNATIONAL PERHAPS? AND DON'T LET ANYONE WHINE ABOUT THE TIME FACTOR. WHO CARES IF IT TAKES A MONTH TO COUNT? IT'S STILL CHEAPER THAN THE MACHINES.

[lonestarnot]

3. AGREED!

[starmaker]

5. only recourse to change two party system

when neither party wants election fraud to be exposed
as they are both complicent. new mexico and richardson
was the evidence that the dnc is but a brother to the rnc.
the average american has no clue and thanks to corporate media
which discusses sponge bob's sexuality i don't expect any change.
congress will not act so it is up to each state to legislate any reform.
my guess is that they have no concept of the problems and have bought into the sales pitch and lobbying of voting machine companies.they cannot envision
people counting votes,this is the computer age of instant gratification and
elections are run more on speed rather than integrity.
i wish something could happen to wake up americans to the fraud
which has existed throughout our history and continues to be perpetrated.
we have been divided left and right,red and blue to divert our attention
away from the corporate control of our country and their ties to the worldwide network of money and control.
i agree that this should be our #1 priority and because election reform threatens those in power we will have few friends.This is a civil rights issue for the majority
of americans who have been left behind.

no vote left unrecountable----workable

why can't we count?------they are afraid

[Amaryllis]

8. That whole NM thing put a different light on the subject since we

can't blame that one on republicans. And I think you are right; it will be a state by state effort. Thank God for Conyers. That man is a true hero.

[Sperk]

6. I totally agree. Everyone that calls for money gets the same answer

"Not another penney until you educate your members on the danger of electronic voting and corp. control of the vote. You can raise a BILLION dollars and it wont do a damn bit of good if they are allowed to keep stealing elections."

If every organization sent out info with their regular literature they could educated tens of millions.

NO MORE NON VERIFIABLE VOTING...PERIOD!
Here is just a few...
ACLU, The People for the American way, Unions, NARAL, Sierra Club,
NAACP, Interfaith Alliance, etc...PUT VOTING INFO IN YOUR LITERATURE and make it YOUR issue!!

Not to mention our Congressmen and women. They should be sending info to their constiuents too! I haven't heard a peep from my Congressman (Meehan) in two years. JEEZ!
He however, has heard from me.

[Dcitizen]

9. Above all. n/t

[Carolab]

10. Oh, I totally get it.

And here is someone else who does and is working with National Ballot Integrity Project and Voters Unite, etc. on a national project to do EXACTLY THAT!!! She is looking for your feedback:

Lora Chamberlain <[e-mail]>

[ailsagirl]

11. ABSOLUTELY

Until that little "problem" is cleared up, we will lose every election.

Is anyone in the upper echelons of government working on that, does anyone know??

[Helga Scow Stern]

12. There is a committee that is supposedly working on it....

they will say they have all the answers. They just held their "open" meeting.

Congressman Ney was the Chair before that new guy who * had paid was appointed.

[oscar111]

14. we will NOT lose every election..must hide the theft by keeeping it lookin

a bit normal. So they will make sure we win fewer and fewer`, but always some.

remember, they are clever. Evil geniuses have always existed.

{ I prefer to call them evil experts.
/
The word genius arouses respect. Avoid it.}

[ailsagirl]

26. I hate it when people call rove "a genius"

That's giving him credit for something that isn't the case. He's devious, he's crafty-- but that isn't genius.

It isn't even intelligence (IMO) because I consider wisdom to be an integral part of intelligence and these guys have no wisdom whatsoever. No foresight. No weighing of consequences. No looking at the bigger picture. Just full speed ahead.

[SoCalDemGrrl]

18. Absolutely agree - FDR reincarnate could head the DNC and unless ..

we go to the Canadian system of hand counted paper ballots, the Republican controlled voting machines will "count" our votes. I believe it's a matter of educating the masses as to who controls their vote. I'll bet that the average citizen believes that either the Federal or State government has strict controls over voting equipment and that the machines are foolproof.

They have no idea that over the last 25+ years Republican controlled companies have gained control over most of the voting systems in America. Most citizens, regardless of party, will be appalled at the fact these partisan companies operate with secret and unverifiable computer source codes and they control 80-90% of the votes in America.

Most of my extended family still thinks I'm a wingnut when I try to explain how our vote counting has been hijacked. I really believe that the masses haven't got a clue and if we could get the message out there, there would be an uproar. However, with the the MSM under the control of the right, the our message cannot be widely disseminated. How can we get the word out?? ANY SUGGESTIONS???

[bush_is_wacko]

23. YOU NEED TO GET THEIR ATTENTION FIRST!

In order to do that you HAVE to FRUSTRATE THE HELL OUT OF THEM! Dropping ALL ELSE to focus on ONE of the MANY things that is affecting this country in a very dangerous manner is in a word NEARSIGHTED!

[shadowlight]

25. The last time I voted in civic elections in Toronto,

a city of approx 3 million people, there were as many as ten different races. mayor, civic council etc. we used paper ballots got the results that night.

[BeFree]

27. Yep, there's the answer

We should outsource the vote counting to Canada. LOL

Paper ballots, hand counted, should be our first priority. There is a possible fall back postion, and that is Paper Ballots, opti-scanned on machines that any citizen can examine the scource code thereof.
Machines that are NEVER hooked to the internet.
Machines that are tested in front of any citizen that wants to be included in the test.

But for now, the only clear message we can send is that e-voting should be outlawed.

This recent election contains evidence of vote-slaughter, and the perps (the machines) need to be sentenced to death by un-plugging. Then cut the cords, and the damned things recycled.

[newyawker99]

30. Hi shadowlight!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Stevepol]

28. Exactly right, bardgal. However, it might be possible to use DREs IF:

THERE IS A VOTER-VERIFIED PAPER BALLOT PRINTED OUT AND AUDITS ARE REQUIRED FOR EVERY ELECTION. The best touchscreens (Avante e.g.) can practically eliminate over- and under-votes and can print out ballots that can be read without the least trouble (no hanging chads or dimpled chads or circles that don't quite fit, etc.). But the machine totals CANNOT BE used as the final result. Audits have to be required by law and if exit polls and/or audits show a considerable enough difference from the tallies, then the vote HAS TO BE RECOUNTED and the results of the paper recount will be THE OFFICIAL RESULT, NOT THE MACHINE TALLY. Also, if a company's machines provide tallies that don't agree w/ legitimate audits and/or exit polls, the companies shd foot the bill for the audits, NOT THE CITIZENS. If the audits and the exit polls show a fair election, then the citizens could pay for the recount. But recounts have to be easy to accomplish and fair in cost and method. ATM machines almost never make a mistake because they are always audited by bank examiners who are alert for the slightest inaccuracy. And the companies are obviously subject to criminal prosecution if embezzlement or fraud can be shown by statistical or any other methods available to bank examiners.

[bardgal]

29. NONONONONONONO NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

THIS IS VERY SIMPLE. NO E-ANYTHING WHEN IT COMES TO ELECTIONS/VOTING.

Believe me, I work with computers, and I know how easy it is to make you believe you clicked one button for the result you wanted, but on the server the polar opposite happened.

WAKE THE F-K UP! NO DREs! NO OPTISCAN COUNTERS! NO NO NO NO NO!!!!!! NO E-ANYTHING WHEN IT COMES TO ELECTIONS. PERIOD.

SO F-ING WHAT IF YOU HAVE YOUR LITTLE PIECE OF PAPER THAT SAYS YOU VOTED TO GIVE EVERYONE FREE ADMISSION TO DISNEYLAND DURING THE 50TH ANNIVERSARY? DO YO REALLY THINK THE WDC WILL ALLOW A CLOSE ENOUGH OUTCOME TO WARRANT A RECOUNT??

PAPER ONLY BALLOTS, STRICTLY PUBLICALLY HAND COUNTED, WITH TRANSPARENCY, OVERSIGHT, AND MULTIPLE CITIZEN OBSERVERS!

IT'S ALSO CHEAPER THAN ELECTRONIC.

SPEED CANNOT BE THE TOP PRIORITY IN AN ELECTION. ITEGRITY MUST BE.

[Democrat Dragon]

31. Well said

Kick!

[mirrera]

32. TELL THIS TO CONYERS!

Sorry to shout, but I am so frustrated. Conyers is fighting for us, he put out a survey ASKING us about the voting reform issues that were important to us. Paper Ballots hand counted were not even on there! I started a thread here on DU to see if I could start an email blitz asking Conyers to at least add it to his survey. I got 2 replies and the thread sunk like a stone. Meanwhile someone who started a thread about voting up Kerry's picture on yahoo stayed on the front page all day. This is a forum about the 2004 election, and I wish people could stay focused on fighting the MACHINES as well as the civil rights violations. The Civil Rights are our proof of fraud, and also a way in to expose the computer manipulation. PLEASE someone who is popular on this board start a thread to get people to email Conyers about Paper hand counted. We are going to end up with scanners everywhere with central tabulaters being f-.cked with from someone's damn cell phone by 2006

[kster]

34. Keep shouting

especially to Conyers and the DNC.The DNC has to know that I will donate to them in the future, if they fight for paper ballots now.Other wise there is no sense donating to them.

[tintin99]

35. What about mechanical voting machines?

Do you want them gone too? Big city politicians have "counted" on them to deliver the vote for decades. No paper trail either.

[bardgal]

36. YES! ALL MACHINES GONE! PAPER BALLOTS ONLY......

HAND COUNTED.

SIMPLE SIMPLE SIMPLE.

[mod mom]

44. the sad part, of course, is all those diebold, triad, es&s hard working,

vote stealing, crooks will be out of work.

[bardgal]

47. wah! TELL THAT TO ALL THE OUT OF WORK IT PEOPLE! Besides,

Starbucks is always hiring.

[loudsue]

37. This is the BEST way to address this issue!

Even if, at some point, we have to "cave" as far as the DRE's are concerned, we will at least be able to hold them accountable with open-source software, verified by independent programmers.

I would still prefer to see all ballots hand counted by high school honor students.

Kicking for the most critical activism....we need to get all the liberal and progressive groups on the same page about election reform: If reform isn't the #1 topic, no more $$. Because if we don't get this problem corrected, NONE OF THE OTHER PROBLEMS can get corrected.

:kick::kick::kick::kick:

[bardgal]

48. EXACTLY!!!!!!

[Imagevision]

40. Without emachines? -- Jeb won't get elected.

He's finished in Florida in 2006...don't think for a second the repukes will want to install Jeb after his whacko brother exits in 08.

[bardgal]

57. No doubt Jeb is next in line for the throne. I just wish McCain would wake

up and see it, and stop being such a whore to the BFEE.

[Nightjock]

41. I talked to my Congressman today

His name is Tim Bishop and he says election reform will never see the light of day unless the public rises up. He says the Republicans will NEVER allow it to be voted on.

[bardgal]

50. SEEE?????? THIS IS MY POINT EXACTLY! THEY KNOW THE ONLY WAY THEY CAN

WIN IS TO CHEAT!!!!

[Zan_of_Texas]

42. YES!

I don't usually like shouting, but it's time to shout.

I totally agree.

The only machines that should be in the polling place are a ballot generator -- something will print out a ballot, especially for a disabled voter. COUNTING by hand.

And, video cameras to watch everything all day long.

I spoke with a reporter from Europe working on a story about American election methods, and he could not believe that this country is tied up in knots with this mess. He said it's so simple -- paper and pencil -- what IS the fuss, he said.

You can have speedy election results that are wrong and rigged and expensive and nontransparent and nonverifiable, or you can have cheap, honest, transparent, and verifiable. It might be quicker, it might not. But, imagine what our system would look like with HONEST TALLIES! Gore would have been president 2000-2004, for starters. We would not be in Iraq. The surplus Clinton left might not be trillions in debt now. Maybe the Patriot Act would not be law. Maybe most countries in the world would not fear/hate/distrust the U.S.

MATH ON HAND COUNTING - WORST CASE
Okay, let's do a little math on vote counting. According to this article, "Inside the Recount," by Karyn Quinlan, Seattle Weekly, January 05 - 11, 2005
http://www.seattleweekly.com/features/printme.php3?eid=59803, the job was to recount the WA Gubernatorial tally. Here are the numbers:

WA 900,000 ballots in King County They had 80 Rs and 80 Ds. They worked less than 9 hours x 13 days. Okay, so 18720 person-hours to count 900,000 ballots. That means each person counts 48.1 ballots per hour. But it's teams, so each team of 2 counts 96 ballots per hour.

Okay. Let's say in a normal vote there is a precinct of 1200 voters. Let's say 660 showed up. Let's say there are three teams of two people each. So, they divide up the ballots, 660 / 3 teams = 220 per team. 220 / 96 ballots per hour = 2 hours 18 minutes.

I think this is probably too much time -- I think in small batches of precincts (roughly 660 turnout) ballots could be counted much faster than this. The WA recount was a slog all day every day, and surely people became tired and bored, and had to wait for many boxes to come and go.

Anyway, for a very long ballot, the top races could be counted first to feed the ravenous media, and then a night shift could be brought in to finish if necessary. But, twelve teams of 2 could count four times as fast, or four times as many races, in the same time as three teams.

It doesn't matter how long it takes. Get the right answer.

[qwghlmian]

43. In your calculation, you forgot that

the recount was only counting one race on the ballot - the Presidential race. There are usually around 20 races on the ballot, and more than 100 races in some places. So - multiply your numbers by at least 20, and in some cases by 100.

[bardgal]

51. I DON'T CARE HOW LONG IT TAKES, I DON'T CARE IF IT'S A MONTH OR MORE....

OR IF IT'S 1000 RACES ON THE BALLOT!!!! IF WE SACRIFICE TIME FOR INTEGRITY, THEN ALL IS LOST!!!

[bluejaypop]

52. Send letters to all congresspeople

Dear Congressman Conyers/Senator Boxer:

I am not one of your constituents. I have watched you defend democracy with unwavering strength over the just completed election. I must impress my opinion that election reform cannot be genuine without a return to paper ballots cast in the transparent method as done in Canada and a number of European countries. I fear that as long as we are on the slope of technology with DREs, optiscan , punch card, lever type and other machines we will be subject to increasing levels of fraud. As someone who has worked with computers for twenty five years I find any argument about verifiable audit trails, paper receipts, and other machine derivative adjuncts totally without merit.

You with your colleagues must force the right wing demagogues out on this issue. I think the framing of the debate should include a reference to how well it works for our neighbors to the north and that it would be cheaper than machines and much more accurate. It must be an unwavering/uncompromising point that machines have no place in voting. All sorts of objections will be raised but I believe a thorough study of how it works in other countries will dispel these notions.

As long as the voting situation is as it is currently arranged progressives will take a losing track to right wing corporatists of increasingly fascistic tendencies. The predominance of this faction makes a mockery of democracy and the U.S. the most hated country on the planet. Please, for the sake of all Americans and all world citizens push this with all your considerable might.

I remain a admirer of your determination to fight when it seems few others will take up the fight.


You Signature Here

[Zan_of_Texas]

58. No I didn't. forget.

I said, "with a long ballot" ....

I said, "worst case."

Canadians do it in a few hours (count votes!). The whole ballot.

If we start with "how", we will be mired in oppressive futility.

If we start with what (the desirable vision), then avenues of "how" will open.

[count_alucard]

49. YOU need to wake up

Election reform will NOT happen with corrupt Republicans in the majority and coward Democrats in the minority.

[Al-CIAda]

53. Agreed-

Only 30 min. of your time...be warned though, you will never be the same.US democracy is an illusion-
January 18, 2005: FTR #494: "Another Interview with Daniel Hopsicker about Electoral Fraud"
http://www.wfmu.org/listen.ram?show=13923

--------
Archives for Dave Emory
Tuesdays 6pm - 7pm on WFMU 91.1 fm 90.1 fm
http://www.wfmu.org/playlists/DX

[Tiggeroshii]

55. I totally agree

If that was so, it would certainly be harder for the loser to call "fraud" after the election.I truly hope something like that comes a long way and I hope we work on encouraging eachother to encourage our senators and house reps that is what we need. But like all things, it all starts at at the roots....

[bardgal]

59. KICK WITH CAPS ATTITUDE ON!!!!

[GetTheRightVote]

60. Thank you, thank you, thank you, as a programmer I thank you

:kick:

You are absolutely right, 200% and more, I hope they listen to you.

[garybeck]

61. HERE IS WHAT YOU NEED TO DO

Conyers is leading the fight for election reform in Congress.

I'm telling you this and it is true. We are in grave danger of losing the real fight because Conyers is too focused on voter suppression and not focused enough on electronic voting fraud.

I believe he will propose a paper ballot requirement, BUT he needs us, everyone to DEMAND that a paper ballot is not enough by itself. There needs to be specific text in the legislation, that the ballots need to be voter verified, that means that the voter can see his ballot and verify who they voted for. otherwise they will give us a paper ballot that can only be read by a vote scanning machine and you can see where that leads.

Also, there needs to be a mandatory hand count of a certain percentage of randomly chosen precincts, nationwide.

If Conyers doesn't get this stuff we're in trouble.

If you look at his website he has a survey with a bunch of questions

http://johnconyers.com/index.asp?Type=SUPERFORMS&SEC={D806E54D-86E7-42DF-BA64-771A221369F1}

but only one that relates to electronic voting and it talks about verifiable audit trails which is not the answer either.

So, we all need to get more educated about the minute details about electronic voting and how a system can work and we need to send a ton of email to conyers and convince him and his staff that they really need to hit the nail on the head or it will accomplish nothing.

[BamaBecky]

63. Do we have a bumper sticker yet?

[bardgal]

64. GREAT IDEA!!!!

E-VOTE=FRAUD

E-VOTE=STOLEN ELECTION

E-VOTE=GOP WINNER. FOREVER

NO E-VOTE

[bardgal]

65. EXAMPLE OF HOW E-VOTING IS THE EXACTLY WHAT THE PROBLEM IS:

KEVIN SHELLEY (CA SOS), HAS DECERTIFIED DIEBOLD MACHINES HERE IN CA. SINCE THEN, THE GOP HAS BEEN ON A WITCH HUNT. THIS ARTICLE IS IN TODAY'S LATIMES:

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-shelley26jan26,0,4430248,print.story?coll=la-home-local

EXCERPT OF SMOKE AND MIRRORS:
Audit Renews Calls for Shelley to Quit

A push for an inquiry into personnel issues adds to the pressure on the secretary of state.
By Tim Reiterman and Dan Morain
Times Staff Writers

January 26, 2005

SACRAMENTO — Pressure mounted for Secretary of State Kevin Shelley to resign as auditors announced Tuesday that they had requested a criminal investigation into his hiring practices and handling of employees' complaints.

The financing of his 2002 campaign is already being investigated by state authorities and a federal grand jury, and legislators are examining his office's alleged mismanagement of $46 million in federal voting funds.

So a highly critical, 50-page audit by the state Personnel Board deepened the political and legal problems that have dogged Shelley for six months. The audit accused Shelley, a demanding boss known for outbursts of temper, of maintaining a hostile work environment during the 18 months ending June 30.

The report prompted calls by at least one fellow Democrat for Shelley — one of the party's highest-ranking statewide figures who is responsible for ensuring that California elections are fair — to step aside.

PLEASE WRITE THE LATIMES:
http://www.latimes.com/services/site/la-site-talk,0,2562859.htmlstory?coll=la-mininav-opinion
STATING THIS IS ALL BS SMOKE AND MIRRORS DISTRACTION BECAUSE A DEM IS TAKING ON THE CRIMINAL GOP ABOUT E-VOTING!!! THIS ARTICLE IS MEANT TO GET PEOPLE TO WRITE IN AND DEMAND SHELLEY'S RESIGNATION. PLEASE WRITE THE TIMES AND SHELLEY'S OFFICE!

[Stevepol]

66. KICK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! n/t

[Laura PourMeADrink]

67. Please don't forget the wildcard - Absentee Ballots. Read this...

In Florida particularly, there's a long history of absentee votes being discarded or manipulated. Hacking the absentee vote can be decidedly low-tech. The Miami Herald won a Pulitzer Prize for showing how fraudulent absentee votes swung a 1997 mayoral election in Miami. In one of the most colorful scams, campaign workers armed with boxes of absentee ballots paid homeless citizens $10 a vote to support their candidate.
In that case, an examination of witness signatures uncovered the fraud. Now, Florida has eliminated the requirement for a witness signature.
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_zdbln/is_200408/ai_n7184103


I am doing research on this issue, and who specifically in Florida was pushing all the anti-democratic voting policies.

Now what I am suspicious about is why Glenda Hood, Florida Secretary of State, is now promoting controls over absentee ballots...

[bardgal]

68. kick