Christians.

[danfromqueens]

Some people think the Christians swung this election. I need to know what we think really happened, and what we need to do in the future. Please lend me your thoughts!!!

[lizzieforkerry]

1. I'm a Christian

and because of this I voted for Kerry!

[Pacifist Patriot]

4. I, for one, cannot see how anyone who values the teachings

of Christ could vote for Bush in good conscience. But that's just me. I'll admit I'm not terribly objective about it.

[ktowntennesseedem]

9. Same here, lizzieforkerry! -eom

[Spiffarino]

54. My christian beliefs

...strongly compelled me to vote against Bush.

[Lerkfish]

99. amen!

[Pacifist Patriot]

2. Too broad a term.

Are you referring to the media assertion that the fundamentalist evangelical Christians mobilized by the far right swung the election?

I don't know. A woman at my UU church is going to be speaking about that next week. Her contention is that it's a red herring and is not an accurate statement. I'm curious to hear why she says about this.

[KenCarson]

58. yes,"christians" is too broad.

and it's usage is very much spin.

[danfromqueens]

3. this is a real issue we need to think about - NYT article

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/14/nyregion/14evangelical.html


snippet:
It is a conversion that prompted Jeanmarie Salazar, a Puerto Rican mother of four in the Bronx, to vote for President Bush even though his economic policies troubled her. And a conversion that caused Harold Thompson, an African-American from Flatbush who lived through the civil rights movement, to part with a lifetime of voting Democratic, citing the "immorality that is destroying our country."

[bobbieinok]

62. READ THIS ARTICLE...IT'S GOING ON IN BLUE STATES, IN DEM

'SAFE GROUPS'

need to take this very seriously....pentecostals are gaining many converts

most of the preachers/churches say only the republican party is moral

we ignore this at our peril

[Hog lover]

84. "Immorality" = gay marriage?

I have read that homosexuality and gay marriage were issues that persuaded some black voters to swing toward Bush. The word "immorality" is just a generalization and is used to try to avoid being called a bigot.

[liberal N proud]

5. I think that the bush regime stole the election

Look at the exit polls that should be enough.
Look at the reports of extra votes for the shrub
Look at the feeling of people in this country (ABB)
Look at the numbers that registered to vote and voted, that is not done to support a sitting fool.
No! There was a large scale tampering of votes in this country.

[Hog lover]

85. I strongly suspect fraud on a large scale, too.

for the reasons you gave. The mass media has no real journalists who are willing to really investigate this.

[Seabiscuit]

93. I'll see your dismay and up you one...

has there been a single Democratic congressperson or senator who has shown any willingness to investigate this?

It's not just the media, folks. And it's not just those dumb brainwashed bible thumpers.

It's our own freakin' representatives in Washington. They've all abandoned us. Every last one of them. Just like they abandoned the African American voters in Florida in 2000.

If only there were a third party that's viable. Right now, the Democratic party sucks big time.

The only hope is working from within - we can't take back our country until we take back our own party from the career asswipe wimps like Kerry who have sold us out. Howard Dean's "Democracy for America" movement is the only bright light on the horizon right now, and that effort may take over a decade to be successful in any meaningfull sense.

[dkofos]

100. I agree.

And something must be done!!!

:evilgrin: :evilgrin:

[Beware the Beast Man]

6. I consider myself a follower of Christ, and I voted for Kerry.

Fear swayed this election; not moral values. I really think fewer people care about "moral values" than we are told.

[lynintenn]

22. Jesus was a great teacher

we would all be better people if we followed his example.
The right wing conservatives go against the grain of his lessons.
The beatitudes in a great example.

[genieroze]

38. Try This

http://www.liberalslikechrist.org/index.htm

[blokenblue]

71. ban

I wonder when they are going to ban Jesus Christ superstar.

[blokenblue]

70. Eye for an Eye

Whenever you confront Christian republicans about the kindness of Christ or quote phrases from the bible they always fall-back to the old testament.

[savetheuniverse]

33. well you know what one voter in Wisconsins told me?

she said she didn't vote for kerry bc he wasn't christian -- wasn't christian? isn't he a CATHOLIC. I also heard that mr kerry actually attends church more regularly than mr bush.

i mean c'mon, you can say you'
re a christain all you want but wasn't there something about how we will be judged by our deeds, not by our words ?

[Beware the Beast Man]

36. A lot of fundies consider Catholics to be non-Christian

[Peanut Gallery]

68. And therein lies the problem

The whole "morals vote" thing begs to be deconstructed - I don't believe it for a minute.

I agree with what someone else posted, that it's a red herring. Anytime an issue is oversimplified by the media to this degree it triggers my BS meter.

[tsuki]

74. A lot. I have never met a Kool-Aid drinker that thought those

papists were anything but you-know-who's spawn.

[TexasChick]

49. Tell her "Way to go. Way to bear false witness against your neighbor."

Tell her she just broke a commandment! Tell her that "He is without sin, cast the first stone." These people act like they know about everyone else and their lives. They can tell us "whether we are Christians or not." It baffles me! No telling how many skeletons are in their closets!

[GreenPartyVoter]

7. The Progressive Christians sure didn't

vote for **!

Would Jesus love a liberal? You bet!
http://timeforachange.bluelemur.com/

[Kralizec]

8. Christian?

The churches have taken the image of someone who was probably very enlightened and wise, surrounded him with religious icons, and through the centuries have eroded away his true values and meaning. If being a "Christian" means belonging to an organized religion, you can count me out.

[lynintenn]

23. fortunately I belong to a church

that endorses true christain values............charity, love for our neighbors, stewards of mother earth and tolerance

[blokenblue]

73. Nowhere in the bible

does Christ say abortion should be outlawed!
Christ never said we should throw gays in to prison
Christ never said we should throw women who have abortions in jail
Christ never said we should throw stones at people we don't agree with
Christ never said your either with me or against me what he said was those who are not with me are against; (different meaning!)

These republican have warped the teaching of Christ and gave Christianity a bad name.

[tsuki]

75. No. They have cherry-picked the old Testement and the writings of

Paul to build a God they can worship. Most of them could never worship the God of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, because he is a wimp and wouldn't "kick-ass."

[patricia92243]

10. In the South it was absolutely, definately "Values" that won the day for

Bush. I don't know anything about the rest of the US.

[savetheuniverse]

26. yes, but what i heard was

that there were spin doctors and all kinds of people who were scaring the people by telling them if JFK got elected, homosexuals would not just be getting married, they'd be marrying say two/three/ at a time -- you know, like polygamous gay marriages. i heard they were spreading unrealistic fears about lesbians coming into school bathrooms and seducing girls. All kinds of crazy stuff like that.

[tsuki]

76. In my part of the south, it was absolutely, definitely the "Military

Contribution to the Local Economy" that won the day. 34% of the economy of the Panhandle is provided by the military bases (9) in this area.

Look at Alabama. Across the south (Fort Rucker, and the Whiting Field aux's), to the north (Redsone Arsenal, Anniston,) in the center (Maxwell AFB)...these bases and their outlying aux fields represent 30,000 jobs and 4 billion dollars.

Base closures in 2005...25% closure rate...hmmm, who's voting for that.

[Hog lover]

86. Doesn't the Florida panhandle vote Repuke anyway? eom

[tsuki]

94. Yes, they do. Between the military retirees, those "lucky" enough

to have jobs on the base, military contractors, and active duty personnel, they make up 34% of the economy. And they don't bite the hand that feeds them. "Moral Values" and the Xians are merely excuses why they vote Repuke. They view the Democrats as a threat to their way of life.

[seafey]

11. I have met Christians who voted for Bush because ...

They listen to that right-wing Christian radio constantly all day. I think there's something to what they're saying about them swinging the election. It doesn't have to make sense- they'll believe it anyway. There are lots of flavors of Christianity, and a large part of it teaches just following (or "having faith"). You're not supposed to ask certain questions, or go upstream. I say this only because I have seen and heard it. Half of my family is this way, and the people I know from work are the same way.

[lynintenn]

20. Last night on CNN

there was a documentary on the Fundies. As a christian it was very scary to me. It apeared as a massice brainwashing campaign like Jim Jones.
It's all about power and not about values.

[savetheuniverse]

30. yes, and one thing i find odd about that

radio phenomenon is that sometimes its not clear whether this is actually the NEWs or like opinion and commentary. while i was driving in rural amerca the other day i tuned in to one of those stations--first just cuz i liked the music, but then ...they were reporting on Yasser Araffat and like implying he was dying of AIDs--they just kept saying he was suffering from a "sexually transmitted disease" -- Arafat with aids?: how realistic is that?

[lynintenn]

45. I said when he first got sick

someone was poisoning him. Slow but sure. Without an autopy no one will ever know.

[DoYouEverWonder]

12. People who follow the true teachings of Jesus

couldn't possible vote for Bush. Unfortunately, most christians follow Paul of Tarsus, not Jesus but they don't even know the difference.

Anyway, I'm making up 'holy' card with pics like the one in my sig line and I'm going to put them on any car I see with a Bush sticker.

[jhgatiss]

16. Holy card? What?

I want to see :)

[DoYouEverWonder]

21. This one

I'm using it in my sig line, but they've got sig lines turned off at the moment.

[jhgatiss]

27. I love it!

Its almost as good as the mock Jesus v Bush political ad I saw on here last night!

[futurecitizen]

57. That is fantastic..

I'm really impressed. I'd like to buy a batch of these from you. No kidding.

[DoYouEverWonder]

59. Just right click on it

and it's yours.

If you'd like something with a little better resolution PM and I can email you a better copy.

[DoYouEverWonder]

60. dupe

[aquart]

13. The Miracle of the Religious Bigots?

It's the Bush cover story for millions of stolen votes.

[Hog lover]

88. YES!!!

Also a post-stolen-election excuse for radical social conservativism. Note how Arlen Spector got slammed when he said something to the effect that anti-choice judges would not be confirmed.

[Halliburton]

14. The nutjobs did...

These nutjob fundamentalists who want to put the bible in our public schools as well as get rid of any form of science that disproves the bible did turn out pretty strongly for Bush. Whether they get their radical agenda ratified remains to be seen. I certainly hope they don't. These guys are absolutely insane if you ask me.

[riverwalker]

15. the term is too obscure

what do you mean by "Christian"?
Do you mean really following the teachings of Jesus and selling all you own, leave your family to administer to the sick and hungry? Raise your hands. I thought so. Mother Theresa, Father Damion, and lots of quiet unknown NGO workers all over the world interpret Christianity that way. Jesus was radical, really, really radical.
Anyone who isn't, is not really a Christian, IMHO. You are just conforming to a culture that is using, distorting and twisting a Christianity-without-Christ.

[lizzieforkerry]

19. Yes,

It is easier for a camel to get through the eye of a needle than a wealthy man to go to heaven. I think of this everytime I leave my two story house to get in one of two cars to go to the mall. Sad really.

[ktowntennesseedem]

17. Plenty of Christians voted for Kerry, including this one.

I do think that a strong case can be made that "Fundamentalists" and the Republicans used the easily persuadable Christian majority to swing the election. Christians aren't the enemy; Fundamentalism is.

[savetheuniverse]

31. do you know about the sojourners?

This is a group i admire greatly and personally i'm hoping that there message gets trhough to a lot of people

http://www.sojo.net/

Because most crhistians i know are really caring compassionate people and they usually really care about the poor...there are just too many poor people in this country fro that theory to make any sense.

does anyone else konw of other sites like this one?

[ktowntennesseedem]

47. Yes, familiar with the Sojourners.

Here's a couple more similar organizations.

Bread for the World

Baptist Peace Fellowship of North America

(love the user name, by the way, catastrophicsuccess!

[lizzieforkerry]

56. libralslikechrist.org is good IMHO

and believersagainstbush.com.

[ewagner]

18. Moral Values

was Republican Code for Guns, Gays and Abortion......

The media can safely repeat the term "Values" without having to face the ugly truth......

[fasttense]

24. Christians Did Not All Vote for B**h

I'm Christian and I didn't vote for the idiot. But most Christians here in TN equate Christianity with anti-choice, love Bush, hate liberals, the Passion of the Christ.

I know in my heart I should give up everything I have and take care of the poor but I don't have the faith for that. Nor do the Christians around here. They believe Jesus would have made himself President. They believe if you are rich it means you are being rewarded by God.

I made the mistake of saying Jesus was a rebel at bible study and half the church stopped talking to me.

I also made the mistake of saying the Passion of the Christ was made by a crazy man who pushed the pain of Jesus as an excuse for hate. The Church is showing the film Friday. Maybe I should find another church.

[ktowntennesseedem]

67. Welcome, fasttense! This TN Christian didn't vote with the crowd either!

Most people in my church shun any political discussion when I'm around, which is good because there's better things to discuss anyway, at least during UT football season. I go to a rather progressive church, at least by local standards. Still lots of Republicans, but they are mostly Republican "by-birth" and/or social conservatives, not a lot of theological conservatives.

Good luck in making a decision about whether to look for another church. I hope it doesn't come to that, but if so I hope you can find a fellowship that will welcome you for who you are, and won't expect you to conform or keep your opinions to yourself. In the meantime, keep talking to the other half that will listen!

:hi:

[fasttense]

89. Thanks for the Welcome

I kind of like the pastor and his wife at the church. He never preaches politics and they are such loving and kind people. But he is very old and has a heart problem and will retire pretty soon. Then I will have to make a decision.

Sorry about getting off topic. Maybe in a small way I have influenced a few people there. At least they can see we democrats aren't all demons.

[hippiegranny]

25. the "moral values" voter

is a media creation to throw the public off the increasingly stinky scent of fraud. The media is sooooo in on all of this.

[jsascj]

28. I disagree with that presumption

I am a Christian and I voted for Kerry...and I voted for Gore... and Clinton-TWICE! I am not a declared Democrat...I'm an Independent.

However, Bush's Christianity gives all Christians a bad name, IMHO.

The latest slogan sweeping the nation a little while back was "WWJD"- What would Jesus do?

* Would Jesus scorn homosexuals because they were 'different'? I think not.

* Would he turn his back on the poor and homeless? Do you think?

* Would he start a war based on a lie and in the process lose 1000's of invaluable, irreplaceable lives? Hmmm...

* Would he attempt to deny people who are only trying to make a living the chance to make a little extra by working over time?

* Would he invade anyone's privacy at his own whim because they did not agree with him?

* Would he make our children's future uncertain with many of the above?

* Would he treat anyone differently because of the color of their skin?



I could go on and on as could you all. This administration is a perfect example of WWJND- What Would Jesus Not Do? These are not Christian principles..they are Republican principles and I'm afraid that too many people (that REALLY voted for Bush) are blinded.

Furthermore, I am convinced that Bush won by fraud not by actual votes...which would take Christians out of the equation altogether.

[idiosyncratic]

29. I am a Christian and I voted for Kerry.

I also stopped going to my Evangelical church.

The pastor is very good, the church is large and popular, but I couldn't listen to their political stuff anymore, especially the homophobia.

[RevCheesehead]

52. Please let your pastor know WHY you aren't there...

If it's a large church, quite frankly, they aren't going to notice your absence.

And if you let him/her know where you stand, you might get them to re-think their political stuff and homophobia.

Things do not change if we remain silent.

RevCheese

[PaulaGem]

79. Bless You ..

[IndyPriest]

32. The Machine has always used God

to cover its indecency. And BushCo is just the latest reincarnation of The Machine. It's a simple tactic: sell fear, and then sell yourself/party/church as the solution. It's been going on for a very long time. Christians didn't buy into BushCo's tactic more than anyone else. (They probably should have, but that's another issue.) The counter-tactic is two-fold, one long-term, one short-term. Long-term: love those in fear so that education is possible. Short-term: expose The Machine. Exposing vote fraud is this history cycle's short-term strategy. Show fraud, and big Karl goes to jail, the extension cord between Bush and his base short-circuits.

[newyawker99]

48. Hi IndyPriest!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[IndyPriest]

50. Thanks, it's a

Pleasure!

[liberal_in_GA]

34. Left-leaning Christians should start a movement

every bit as powerful, vocal and visible as that of their right counterparts. There were a few sites--Christians4kerry.com, for one--but there needs to be a continuous effort to make Dem Christians more prominent in the political process. It should be a part of our effort to reframe "moral issues" for the 2006 and 2008 campaigns.

That said, I still think we wuz robbed, vote-wise.

[Fortunato]

40. The Bush fixation

I'm from central PA, which is basically the "Bible Belt of the North." These are actually "good people" -- they help others, they're committed and dedicated to family, they serve admirably -- but when it comes to politics, it's like something shuts down and people simply take on the black-and-white Bush mentality:

Republicans: Good, righteous, holy
Democrats: Pagan, worldly, backsliders

While I'm not sure it's correct to credit the evangelicals with winning Bush the election, their support cannot be downplayed. The litmus tests of abortion ("pro-life!) and gay marriage ("NOT!") basically determine their vote and opinions of the candidates. I'm not kidding when I say that no other issue matters. Dauphin County went 55%-45% Bush favor, I think...

They figure these two issues determine the "righteousness" of the candidates, and as long as they get the most "righteous" guy in office, then the world will be saved. (Otherwise it's going to hell in a handbasket.)

While people at my church are less inclined to act that way (including the pastor, who refuses to take political sides, good for him!), I still feel pretty lonely sometimes.

I might have some problems with Kerry, but when I look at Bush, I see a guy who:
1. Pushed for a war that was unnecessary, just because he could.
2. Ignores the advice of wise counselors.
3. Pushes his agenda without regard for the public trust/interest.
4. Caters to the wealthy.
5. Mostly ignores social issues (economy, health care, immigration, education) until suddenly the election looms up and he needs to win reelection.
6. Doesn't care about other points of view or concerns (domestic or abroad).
7. Refuses accountability for his actions, bristles when his decisions are challenged in any way.

These things don't make him very "righteous," by Christian standards or otherwise.

[liberal_in_GA]

44. Good points

I just think that if an alternative interpretation to what it means to be Christian was WIDELY spread and analyzed, then these sorts of two-issue "Christians" might--MIGHT--think a little bit about their stance. Right now, they have no other model to consider.

BTW, I'm originally from Norristown, just outside Philly... :hi:

[Straight Shooter]

35. I think we need to distinguish real Christians from neochristians

Just as we need to distinguish conservatives from neoconservatives. They are birds of a different feather; the real Christians are like doves, and the neochristians are predatory hawks.

[Kralizec]

37. Found this on Malloys site, this is very pertinent to this THREAD

Fascism Anyone?

Mike Malloy Site, Gallery section

Crazy times...

[genieroze]

39. Fascism Anyone?

Holy Crap! That's US NOW!!!!!

[fasttense]

82. OK, you scared me.

That is one spooky little poster you got there. It's almost as if he had the devil behind him. Gives me the shivers every time I look at it. Great job.

[genieroze]

41. interesting site

http://www.theocracywatch.org/

[Kansas Wyatt]

42. Churches Hijacked With Disinformation

Just days before the election, a minister wrote a letter that was printed in the Kansas City Star. He was upset, because an organization had left fliers on everyone's windshield that told them to vote for their religious values. He was upset because he had to explain that nobody from the church knew about this or endorsed what it said, and he accused the Republicans of doing this.

[Bridget Burke]

43. The figures are not yet in.

Where is the raw data from the exit polls? Can we trust the vote counts?

Let's get this information & discuss it.

There are Christians & "Christians".

[AspenRose]

46. A side note about the black churches and their being influenced

by the fundamentalists re: gay marriage.

Unfortunately there were some black churches out there who preached from the pulpit about the 'evils' of gay marriage, which swayed some of the black Christian vote towards Bush.

I would like to see a resurgence of a focus on CIVIL RIGHTS FOR ALL within these same churches, so they they may see it more as the CIVIL RIGHTS issue that it is, instead of being swayed by the fundamentalists (who, incidentally, could care less about blacks in the first place....they need to be reminded of that, too).

Coretta Scott King has been vocal in the past about not agreeing with these ministers and in treating this as an issue of equality for all. There needs to be more emphasis on that, and on the humanity and dignity of ALL people, to counter the inroads that have been made.

[TexasChick]

51. Christians, like me, voted for Kerry. True Christians do not vote for

liars and warmongers. Bush wouldn't know Christ from a rock on the ground. Christ always told us to pray for our enemies. He never said to wage war! Christ was the Prince of Peace not the Prince of Wars!

These fundamentalists always say that Kerry is a baby killer. I say "You want to talk baby killer? What about the Iraqi children and pregnant Iraqi women being blown to pieces by our bombs, huh? What about their unborn?" Christians like me, actually do value our Constitution and our right to freedom of religion. I want to worship Christ the right way and not some messed up Fundie's version! These people are feeble-minded and DO NOT read the Bible. Or at least, they have a hard time understanding it! They are easily lured by false prophets, such as Bush, and will believe anything they are told (Limbaugh comes to mind). (No, I don't feel like I am bearing false witness against these Fundies. I feel we all have proof that they are feeble-minded.)

No, Christians, I feel, who do read the Bible, did not vote for Bush!

[JudyM]

53. Check out this article.... paints a shocking picture

http://cleveland.indymedia.org/news/2004/10/12982.php

Excerpts:

...Many Christian fundamentalists feel that concern for the future of our planet is irrelevant, because it has no future. They believe we are living in the End Time, when the son of God will return, the righteous will enter heaven, and sinners will be condemned to eternal hellfire. They may also believe, along with millions of other Christian fundamentalists, that environmental destruction is not only to be disregarded but actually welcomed -- even hastened -- as a sign of the coming Apocalypse.

... We are not talking about a handful of fringe lawmakers who hold or are beholden to these beliefs. The 231 legislators (all but five of them Republicans) who received an average 80 percent approval rating or higher from the leading religious-right organizations make up more than 40 percent of the U.S. Congress. These politicians include some of the most powerful figures in the U.S. government, as well as key environmental decision makers: Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, Senate Majority Whip Mitch McConnell, Senate Republican Conference Chair Rick Santorum, Senate Republican Policy Chair Jon Kyl, House Speaker Dennis Hastert, House Majority Whip Roy Blunt, U.S. Attorney General John Ashcroft, and quite possibly President Bush.

...Like it or not, faith in the Apocalypse is a powerful driving force in modern American politics...

... In the past, it was not deemed politically correct to ask probing questions about a lawmaker's intimate religious beliefs. But when those beliefs play a crucial role in shaping public policy, it becomes necessary for the people to know and understand them. It sounds startling, but the great unasked questions that need to be posed to the 231 U.S. legislators backed by the Christian right, and to President Bush himself, are not the kind of softballs about faith lobbed at the candidates during the recent presidential debates. They are, instead, tough, specific inquiries about the details of that faith: Do you believe we are in the End Time? Are the governmental policies you support based on your faith in the imminent Second Coming of Christ? It's not an exaggeration to say that the fate of our planet depends on our asking these questions, and on our ability to reshape environmental strategy in light of the answers.

[genieroze]

63. They forgot about Coors

He's one of them too.

[restorefreedom]

55. I'm a Christian..

And I can't imagine any Christian supporting an unjustified invasion killing and wounding thousands of soldiers and civilians.

But that's just me..

"If you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever." -- George Orwell

[GettysbergII]

61. Real Christians need to take a close look at Dominionism

...which is the twisted religion of the Right-wing elite that considers democracy a heresy and and the filthy rich the elect of God chosen to take over all the governments of the world by any means necessary. Emerge yourself in this sick theology and then spread the word through your congregations and tell them to spread the word as well. This is a treasonous Un-American perversion of Christianity.

,
http://www.politicalamazon.com/cr-quotes.html
Dominionism described in the words of its founder, R.J. Rushdoony, who said:

"The chuch today has fallen prey to the heresy of democracy." in
R.J. Rushdoony, The Institutes of Biblical Law (Nutley, NJ: Craig Press, 1973), p. 747.

Here's some more links:

Great mother/daughter website: http://www.yuricareport.com/

http://www.politicalamazon.com/cr-ahmanson.html
Great info on Reconstructionism (Dominionism by another name) but also about the Rushdoony bagman who funded the developers of the electronic voting machine companies, Howard Ahmanson Jr.

The Council for National Policy, cofounded by R. J. Rushdooony, is the politburo of the religious right. All the real nastiness stems from there.
http://watch.pair.com/cnp.html#latin
http://www.seekgod.ca/topiccnp.htm


Some background on R.J. Rushdoony?
http://www.christianrf.com/rjrbio.html

[m berst]

80. yes

It would be a tremendous help if all Democrats started saying "Dominionist" instead of "fundie" and "Bible thumper" and "Christian." When we ask for help on this from non-Christian Dems we are met with two things here - we are harrangued about the evils of Christianity through the ages; and then we are told that no one is criticizing Christianity and that they are sick of hearing us say that they are, and besides Christians deserve to be bashed.

Dominionism is the threat, not Christianity. Dominionism feeds off of a perceived persecution complex that the leaders are able to use to manipulate people. When I tell fellow Christians that it is Dominionism we are opposed to - the insertion of a particular Christian dogma into the political arena and public policy - I am competing with ten other liberals telling them that "Christians" are to blame.

I am not complaining about anti-Christian bias, and I am not defending Christians. I am trying to appeal to Democrats to be smarter about this.

Dominionism - a goofball pseudo-theology espoused primarily by Falwell and Robertson for the purpose of advancing their wealth and power and the wealth and power of their political allies in the Republican party. It is a grab bag of doctrines developed solely for their propaganda needs.

[leanin_green]

64. beat them at their own game

the only way you can talk to these people is by using scripture.
It never hurts to bone up on a few, ie.,

"The vile person shall no more be called liberal, nor the churl said to be bountiful. For the vile person will speak villany, and his heart will work iniquity, to practice hypocrisy, and to utter error against the Lord, to make empty the soul of the hungry, and he will cause the drinkof the thirsty to fail. The instruments also of the churl are evil: he deviseth wicked devices to destroy the poor with lying words even when the needy speaketh right. But the liberal deviseth liberal things; and by liberal things shall he stand." Isaiah 32:5-8

[Gyre]

65. I don't think any more turned out than in 2000

It isn't my sense that the christians were the big turnout in new voter registrations, or that they stood in line to vote for hours.

I think their jesus freak leaders are spinning this to claim they're entitled to more royal dispensations from his chimperial majesty and the press is more than willing to give them a forum to present their hopeful supposition as fact. Most Americans just swallow it whole w/o thinking or asking questions like (can you prove it?).

Gyre

[noiretextatique]

66. faith-based voting is connected to faith-based $$$$$$

this is not news, btw. several people were reporting on this...the fact that * was trying to buy votes with his so-called faith-based initiatives. and as others have mentioned, true believers in the teachings of christ could never vote for *.

[Justathought]

69. I do not and never will believe it was the Christian vote

that carried the bush vote. I have and always will believe what carried the bush vote was exactly what John Kerry pointed out. Terrorism at every critical point of the campaign...everytime it looked like Kerry was gaining support....alerts went up, the Bin Laden tape appears, the 9/11 ads appeared. This was how the bush administration stole this election....fear, fear, fear. Not enough voters could see or accept these tactics being used. Have any of you seen a terror alert rise since the election....nope went down. Have there been more Bin Laden tapes...nope.

People voted out of fear that changing administrations would be terrible in a time of war....yet this administration is losing seven of its war leaders....is that not change. People were duped and christian values had nothing to do with it as the real priority of bush stealing the election again. :spank:

[tsuki]

72. Don't let the media back off their story. Make Andrew Sullivan swear

that it was because we don't understand the moral issues. It was the religious right, it was the religious right. Let's convince everyone that it was the Republican religious right. They're already lining up at the trough to swill their fill. The more outrageous the Republican religious right, the more they swaggart, the more they talk to God and get the real scoop from Him, the greater the chance for a moderate Republican backlash in 06.

[magellan]

87. It's important to point out

that the agenda of Christian Dominionists fits well within the Neoconservative agenda: essentially, global domination. The only difference is their individual reasons for working towards that end. Even though Neoconservatives tend not to be deeply religious, if at all, they easily appeal to the more radical element of Christianity, including the Dominionists, by defining patriotism as engaging radical Muslims in the GWOT, i.e. "holy war".

Common people are being used by both groups to turn the world upside down on behalf of corporate-"Christian" America. It's all quite pathetic, really.

[tsuki]

95. Their point of view will become increasing

distasteful to the corporate extreme of the Republicans. It will force a fight unless the media begins a lockdown on "moral issues."

[demodonkey]

77. Christian Left Better TAKE THEIR RELIGION BACK, ASAP!!! eom

[m berst]

78. tell ya what

It would be a lot easier for us to do that if the rest of the Dems could be committed to taking the party back for the people, and stop making our job harder by demonizing all Christians and reinforcing the right wing stereotypes about the party.

[Kralizec]

81. Everyone alweays takes it personal. You got 2k+ years of establishment

when you talk about religion. Don't think that they haven't thought the possibility of losing their power. Just think of organized religion losing power. Yeah. It's hard to just imagine.

[m berst]

83. explain please - eom

.

[Kralizec]

90. throughout history, religion has been very powerful, if not THE power, in

politics and government.

[m berst]

91. well....

Often, yes. How does that apply to left wing Christians gaining influence over Christianity today, do you think?

[Kralizec]

98. My point is that it can't be done without abusing it.... the repugs are wi

lling to do just that. So unless you want to hurt it, you can't do anything...

by "it" I mean the true meaning and message of Christ

[Technowitch]

92. Christians? No. Corrupt crooks and vile thieves? Yes.

[jsascj]

96. Does this 'hypothetical' person sound familiar?

Name this person...

The third antichrist

"In order to achieve the tremendous impact the first two antichrists had (if we accept that they where Hitler and Napoleon), a number of circumstances had to be accomplished.

Firstly the antichrists represented world powers and were able to motivate and inspire large number of followers.

Both Hitler and Napoleon were leaders of the most powerful nations at their time. They had the will and the means to achieve their goals no matter the cost and the consequences. They were able to sell their ideas to their followers and convince whole nations to participate in their plans.


The political and economic circumstances needed firm and resolute actions. The antichrists brought hope and strength. It was the objection by other nations that finally set off the slaughter between mankind. The cost and the consequences were large-scale death, destruction and suffering for France, Europe and the world in general.

It seems logical that the third antichrist will fit in, in that same way. He must be the leader of a most powerful nation at a certain moment in time. A man with the will and means to achieve his goals no matter the consequences. This leader will be loved by its own people and will lead them to believe that they deserve more and better. Under his leadership his own country will flourish and expand.

Hitler the second anti-christIn the first stages, this antichrist will point out external enemies to give strength to his strategies. He will strive for a strong military and a stronger control on his own people, their opinions and actions.

The antichrist and his close followers have the uncanny ability to convince people of the right of their actions and their methods. Under other circumstances these methods would be unnecessary, unacceptable, wrong or illegal.

In order to expand his power, established international agreements get canceled or changed. Rules that apply to all countries and people will not be allowed to apply to him or his people.

The antichrist will follow a strategy of expansion: nations will be manipulated, countries invaded and control of natural resources reallocated in order to improve the quality of life of his own people and to ensure their safety.

The consequences of the growth and success of this one nation will negatively affect other countries. Initially the politics followed, will cause unrest, discussion, frustration, doubts, unbelief etcetera but no actions.

The stronger and more influential the nation of the antichrist is, the longer it takes for other countries to take defensive measurements. When countries finally stand up and join together against this power it will be the beginning of large-scale destruction."

Nostradamus the prophet, AntiChrist, anti crist, anti-Christ

[mcg]

97. "the Christians"? Which type of "Christian"?

From what I've seen of the right-wingers, they are not very Christian.
Christians are supposed to "love thy enemy", not steal, not murder, not bear false witness, etc..