Conversation I just heard on Randi Rhodes: Caller was upset about democrat

[Kralizec]

s not speaking up. He just didn't get her point. I've been writting this for a while, but Rhandi has always been insinuating something, and I have heard clues on The majority Report as well. Not to mention Mike Malloy, while not dropping the issue, has moved it from the spotlight. This sounds like they know something that is happening.

Rhandi's point is completely rational. Look at how Obermann is getting his ass kicked. Whether or not his vacation was really planned or not is irrelevant. He is getting attacked hard form the right. So the point is that if Kerry was in the spotlight fighting this, or any big democrats for that matter, he would be getting his ass kicked really hard... so hard that he would have to stop the recount because of public opinion just like in Florida in 2000. Connect the dots!! It's the safe, but smart thing to do!

It's important to remember what everyone at DU knows. The media is in the pocket of corporations, which is Bush. We get to investigate all these things without their biggest weapon working against us.

Clear enough?

[Inland]

1. Yes, I agree:

If the recount is made Bush v. Kerry, then the pubs will stop it solely on the ground that they want the result of Bush. They won't be ashamed of it, either.

But if we recount on the ground that it is for the next election, or to count every vote, well, how can you be against that?

Kerry's concession is looking smarter every day, since the best we could ever hope for is to call Bush into question in order to keep the next election from being stolen or mortally wounding his mandate talk or indicting a few pubbie operatives.

[Hobbes199]

2. That's bullshit

Kerry should be standing up for what he believes in the same way that we stood up for him. Hiding in the shadows or ditching us completely is not what I'd look for in a President. There is nothing worse for our cause than to be staying silent right now, and from him it's just a kick in eye.

[Kralizec]

3. Why lose the battle automatically?

That's what would happen if the media had been pounding him from day one, calling him selfish and a crybaby. Think: It would be the hot topic after every commerical break on FOX. The sheeple would be programmed within days and any real chances would be lost. Patience is a virtue. The recount in Ohio is a fact. It is happening.

[Hobbes199]

9. It's the silence that is letting the clock run out

In 2000 this week here was a critical week, court decisions were already coming out on the 24th to halt recounts. Where are we right now? In Florida, it's likely that Bev Harris has gotten all she's going to get, and everything else has been covered up, is being covered up, or would be covered up before anything can be done about it. The public already expected him to stand up and fight, he had all the lawyers geared up -- no one would have been surprised. Instead we have to rely on Bev and the greens/libs and Nader to do the work we had donated to Kerry for. Is he giving them the funds they need? No. Who is? It's us at $10-50 a pop. He's got $50 mill waiting to be used. Waiting for what? He'd have to be getting the ball rolling by now. This is ridiculous, and we're all going to feel stupid come Dec 13th (my birthday, btw), when he hasn't rode into town, much less shown up on the horizon.

[merh]

32. That is only your impression or understanding of what Kerry is

doing. You really don't know what he is doing, now do you? I personally believe there is alot going on that is not being made public and I am fine with that.

I know how behind the scene investigations work.

[Hobbes199]

34. How long do you think we have to wait?

How long can we wait?

[merh]

37. Did you watch the interview Kerry gave yesterday or read the

transcript of his interview? I suggest you take the time to watch/read it. ;-)

John Kerry Speaks Out
(11/16/04 9:13 p.m.) Two weeks ago, Massachusetts Sen. John Kerry conceded defeat in the presidential race against George W. Bush. On Tuesday, Kerry talked about his campaign with NECN political reporter Alison King -- and his future in Washington, D.C.

http://www.boston.com/news/necn/



Transcript @ http://www.trenzhost.com/files/sydney/John%20Kerry%20Speaks%20Out3.htm

[joeunderdog]

46. Yeah, but where the hell is TED?

He's conspicuously silent. Kennedy has minced no words in savaging Bushco whenever he feels they have pulled a fast one. Iraq, Medicare, ANYTHING. Why hasn't he spoken out about the fraud? I scratch my head the same way when Al Franken continues to roll over on the biggest election theft in history. If you've read "Blinded by the Right" you know that the pols, the media, the judges and big business party together and plan together. It's not impossible that they are all flying low so that their initial assertions are convincing and not just unfounded accusations.

I saw Kerry's interview, and if he was playing coy, he was damn good. But they said at the beginning of the campaign that they were ready to go to the wall with this. His concession speech left no time to research the most casual doubter's questions--very un-Prosecuterlike. Could be a big game of possum.

And he's just happens to have at least $15M laying around to go after this thing if he needs it.

[ahyums]

47. not only that but I remember Kennedy at the start of CNN's election night

he was absolutely convinced Kerry was going to win, beyond the usual campaign bluster to my eyes at least. He must have suspicions at the very least.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

62. Not only that.......

....Pat Buchanan seemed totally convinced the Bush was about to lose Ohio at about 8pm, and was already figuring out other ways he could win.

Chris Matthews seemed ready to declare Ohio at 7:30 Eastern. He got the stop signal seconds before.

Endless reports of glum faces at the WH.

[merh]

50. Too many are laying low, not to be heard.

Where is Gore? :shrug:

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

60. Apparently staying silent is working.......

......if you've been paying attention.

[Ducks In A Row]

4. I understood it too BUT---------

why do they have to poo-poo the "IDEA" of fraud. Randi doesn't, she knows the evidence is out there and needs to be found, and secured.

When they put down the very idea of fraud, it drives me crazy.

[Mika]

6. There was no fraud

Just a couple of rogue bad apples. ;)

[KoKo]

25. Or to use "Rummy's phrase" ..."bad actors." ....eom

[Ducks In A Row]

28. Hark, I hear the crazy wagon coming for me

but listening to Randi still makes me feel better.

:)

[htuttle]

30. Actually Franken and McCurry admitted today there was a 'little fraud',

But they assured us that it wasn't enough to change the election.

I suppose their psychic auditor determined that fact -- hard to imagine they could just 'know' there wasn't 'enough' fraud any other way.

Apparently, we're supposed to be content with the fact that there's just a 'little fraud'. So there's no need to ACTUALLY audit, since we somehow know that there's not ENOUGH fraud to change anything.

This is utter madness.

Where can I get myself one of these psychic auditors? They sound pretty handy.

[Lugnut]

39. A "little fraud"

Is like "slightly pregnant". Nonsense! Either it is or it isn't. Maddening.

[mother earth]

52. yes, a little fraud

is just like "a little pregnant"....so, this should give us hope that something big is coming. Let's be patient. What else can we do?

[Pooka Fey]

5. Keeping silent about this is "thinking outside the box"

and very smart. The rules of fair play and standing up for what you believe it don't apply here. Did Churchill and FDR stand up and tell Germany that the allies were going to invade Europe in June 1944? No. You don't stand up and tell your enemy what you are doing.

[Doremus]

7. If Kerry came within 10 feet of this,

... he and the DNC would be smeared as tin foil beany wearing loons. The repugs would hyperventilate at the prospect, and are undoubtedly right now having prayer meetings that one of them steps into it.

You think the DNC is bruised now? There would only be little shreds blowing in the wind if they supported this.

If and when there's some concrete evidence --provable in a court of law-- then THAT will be the correct time for the PTB to throw their weight behind this.

[Hobbes199]

19. How is there going to be concrete evidence?

Unless someone comes forward, or unless a whole slough of us gained trash bags full of polling tapes from OH, NM, and FL, there will be no hard evidence. Supposedly the statistical analysis is admissible as evidence, but admissible to what? There are no court hearings to show it at, and it's only scoffed at by the media.

A recount is the only way to be showing fraud right now. Litigation, lock-downs, audits. Time is wasting, and we will be given no ligitimacy to what we're doing without Kerry's support.

[wiggs]

43. Disagree.

I don't see the logic in the argument that Kerry would get torn to shreds if he gets near the issue of the 2004 election. I just don't.

First, how much worse can it be than what he has already gone through?

Second, Kerry doesn't have to wade in with both feet. He could play it so that he is simply fullfilling the promises he made to be sure that every vote counts, while not challenging the election. He can play it both ways if he wanted: keep his distance and let his millions help with the huge amount of work that will happen anyway.

He could, if he wanted, help. I don't know why he is not, but I doubt it's because he's afraid of some bad press.

[EndElectoral]

8. Disagree...the longer we don't fight, the more entrenched the public becom

es that there wer no problems. If this is their strategy, they're playing into 4 more years of GW...

[Kralizec]

11. But it doesn't matter what the public thinks. The first time th

e rest of the public hears about it is from the Dems, in my theory, is when Bev or Nader or Cobb or Badnarik find evidence of ANYTHING in the recounts in OHIO and investigations in lots of places. When there is cold, hard facts, expect an explosion.

All I mean is that the public would easily be convinced that this was a stupid thing to do, which we KNOW is not true. But trust me, by the time the media was done, the recount would go back to the Supreme Court. Which it still might....

[Hobbes199]

14. Exactly

If not now, then when? Can we expect something next week on the 24th? Or the week after on the 1st? How long after then can we expect any resolution? Do you think the Adminis are not going to block at all? We're just giveing them all the time they need.

After the 13th is most likely no good, because if the states don't send their electorate, then the choice is going to come to the House, and we obviously can't expect support from them.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

10. Kerry said "no doors open, no doors shut"

he's keeping his options open.

[Kralizec]

12. Hey Sorry I don't mean to sound confrontation. Sorry about that ;p

this was meant for the message above....

[TumorSupressor]

13. This doesn't excuse Al Frankin's pooh poohing us.

I just get the feeling that if the truth comes out about this election some people fear that all hell will break loose.

[Search Party]

16. as it should!!!!!! n/t

[newyawker99]

56. Hi TumorSupressor!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[tex-wyo-dem]

15. If Kerry didn't concede...

he would have been roasted by the right-wing propoganda machine, not to mention it would probably severely damage his influence in the Senate had he pushed it and lost anyway. As a result, he's actually been receiving complements, believe it or not, from the right-wing talk shows for "showing class" and not putting the country through another long protracted election.

Wait to fight another day...smart tactics on his part.

Meanwhile, under the radar, while Fallujah, Arafat and the Petersen trial have been dominating the media, his team of attorneys and election observers are still in OH to view the count of provisional ballots and investigate voting problems and Nader and the Glibs have demanded and gotten their recounts. Who knows what else the Kerry team may be doing, but we, my fellow DUers need to keep pressing the issue.

[Kralizec]

17. And remember, they are getting this stuff without much restriction. Why?

Because the pressure of the media is not on him. Let him be for a little longer. We can always rail on him for the next four years!! }( }(

[CheshireCat]

70. keep fighting - YES!

But I totally disagree with you statement:

"Wait to fight another day...smart tactics on his part."

That day has come and gone. The Democrats have had the "wait to fight another day" attitude since the Reagan years. And look where it has gotten us.

Face it - playing nicely and patiently has not worked for us! We need to be more vocal. Proud of what we believe in and not afraid to express it.

4 more years of Bush IS our darkess hour.

People have left the Democratic party because it sometimes seems ashamed of its positions on issues - of what its members really believe. This has happened over a couple of decades.

We can wait no longer to stand up for our beliefs; for our right to be treated equally by the party in power. And by the corporate media.

[hlthe2b]

18. The only thing that really concerns me, is that there is a growing belief

that the Greens and Libertarians plus Nader are the only ones fighting for our vote. We at DU know the truth-- that it is a grass roots movement of Dems/libs&progressive independents led by the likes of Bev Harris at BBV and others, that got Nader/Cobb/Badnarik to get into the recount issue, and that we all contributed the money to make it happen.

But, the general public doesn't know this and even Al Franken and Mike McCurry were feeding the line that "good for the greens and libertarians in taking this up..." issue.

Now, this concerns me greatly, because if many Dems continue to hold this belief, then they WILL be likely to vote 3rd party in the future. After all, why would you vote for DEMS if you truly are concerned about your vote counting, see the Dem leadship walking away, despite their pledge to "ensure that every vote is counted..." DUers know the score, and I'm happy for the Cobb/Badnarik/Nader assistance. But, is this going to backfire on us, given the medias propensity for never correcting any story....?

[Kralizec]

20. I understand your point. And I think you are right if it ends up that

Kerry DID totally betray the voters. But all I'm saying is let's stop and give him a little time before we call him a traitor. You see the positive value of being quiet, so now only waiting to see if this is actually his plan is left to do.

[Hobbes199]

24. I hope you're right...

But times a'ticking.

[hlthe2b]

27. Whoah... I'm not second-guessing Kerry, although after hearing McCurry

this morning, I have more and more doubts he is doing much from the sidelines and suspect he really is moving on. However, I don't question that he feels that tact is necessary, given the media and the ruthlessness of the REPUGs.

But, however necessary it may be for the DEMS to stay on the sidelines, the truth is that this may backfire big time in the future. AND, I wonder if we should not be trying to get the word out that the money and work behind the effort is truly grassroots generated in cooperation with Cobb, Badnarak, Nader, who we approached, and NOT from any specific independent 3rd party efforts?

[Hobbes199]

21. What about the evidence

That BevBV found yesterday? This is pretty damning evidence, no? Shouldn't someone come out and say, "woah hey, i guess there might be something to this, lets (put your fears to rest|find out what the deal is)"?

[Kralizec]

22. Why not wait until you have a foolproof case?

Imagine if Bev's evidence is just one piece of a whole entire case!
;-) ;-) ;-)

[Hobbes199]

23. 3 people driving around Florida

Would not be as effective as an injunction from the Kerry camp to lock down the goods until they could be scrutinized. The 3.5 mill popular vote diff, and the lack of a stand-up democratic front, is giving the Admins all the time they need to clean up their mess.

[mary195149]

26. Kerry has always been a fighter,

If he gathers enough ammo towards the repubs, you better believe he will come out and fight aggressively. But if he comes out now, what strength does he have. They need to gather the facts. He didn't campaign for the last 2 years of his life to give it up that easily. His a smart man and is very loyal to his country. He knows another 4 years of Bush could be disastrous. He won't let that happen if he can help it.

[global1]

29. And Once BBV, Nader, and All Those Investigating The Election Find Out ...

there really was "FRAUD" and that *RoveCo stole the election ---- let's just keep it to ourselves because "It's the safe, but smart thing to do. After all - the media is in the pocket of corporations, which is Bush. And we don't want them to say Kerry is thinking only of himself and doesn't care about the war and our fighting soldiers and Fallujah. The media will just move on to other more important issues - because in their mind the election is over and we have more important issues to deal with -- Scott Peterson's sentencing, Kobi, Blake, reality shows, obesity, etc.

What's going to change if it is discovered that something devious went down on Nov. 2nd.

You don't think the Repugs won't unleash then what they would have unleashed on Nov. 3rd if Kerry stood his ground.

Help me here????

[Kralizec]

31. Yeah my point perfectly... eom

[ewagner]

33. That's an interesting question

If something comes of this, all hell will break loose....I think it would be helpful for us to know if the repubs have dismantled their brigade of lawyers....are they still in Ohio? Florida? NH?

[global1]

36. No - The Repugs Have Moved On .....

they don't know about BBV, Nader/NH, Recounts in OH, etc.

We're (Kerry and Co.) doing all this in secret and keeping it from the Repugs. This is all under their radar screen. They're moving on to how to steal the next election, start the next war, grant the next non-bidded contract to Haliburton, figuring out how to get Jeb in the WH in 2008, etc.

We're going to take them by complete surprise when we say there was election fraud and they're going to roll over and let Kerry take over and bring back the troops, stop all wars, give everybody healthcare, put Tom Delay in jail along with the Plame outers, Rummy, Condi, Wolfi, Cheney, Ashcroft, Bush, etc.

Come on - Rove is the consummate Chess player and he is three moves ahead.

If you think Kerry is going to be in a celebratory parade on Jan 20th. I have a electronic voting machine company to sell you in Ohio.

[mother earth]

51. Hope you are right....

The waiting is soooooooooooooooooo hard...

[ahyums]

35. look I'm going to come right out and ask it

I sometimes get the impression here that some people posting actually knows someone on the campaign or somehow has contacts which are suggesting that this is the case. Does anyone know one way or another if Kerry is in any way still following this (above and beyond the lawyers in Ohio which we all know about) , for certain not based on supposition but based on something concrete, I mean a relatively cryptic or vague answer would be enough. Is anyone doing more than faith based deduction when saying Kerry is still working on this?

[Laura PourMeADrink]

38. What I am going on, as weak as it is

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x53645#54984

This is a post from last night from RageKage - the first. So I thought Ragin Cajun - Sounds like Carville - and he sounded like he knew Kerry knew and wanted us to figure it out

[ahyums]

40. I don't know he seems to be from Winnipeg

in Canada which would be a pretty odd location for Carville right now

[Kralizec]

42. Ahh, yes! But Carville is not the only one who is dropping hints like that

[ahyums]

45. well who and where then?

as I said I'm worried this is just a bit of reverberation and faith based deduction - ie. one person posts that this what Kerry must be doing and it gains traction from that, Having said that it would be an entirely reasonable thing for Kerry to be doing, I'm just wondering if the assertions here are based on pure speculation or more than that

[BlueStateBlue]

71. Ok, here's why I think it IS Carville

I have a copy of his book "Had Enough?", and just thumbed through it again. Looks like his style, in addition to his thinking. He uses colons a lot! Just my 2 cents...
:think:

[googly]

41. I have a theory on why Kerry/Edwards campaign is silent ...

they do not want an investigation because it could uncover fraud on BOTH sides and then the whole issue of recounts will die in a hurry. It is far smarter to let the GLibs initiate the recount and that way our hands are clean.

[ahyums]

44. I really really doubt that there was any KE initiated fraud

it just does not fit with their character with their campaign, its pretty much inconceivable to me. ( Which is of course exactly what committed BC supporters are saying right now about their candidates)

[googly]

49. Election fraud is seldom a top down process...in other words...

it is never initiated by the presidential candidate or his campaign. It is almost all done at the precinct level. I lived in Chicago for 35 years, and we could turn out as many extra votes as we thought were needed per instructions from the precinct captain.

[ahyums]

53. except that Rove had his own numbers, now and in 2000 I wonder where he

was getting them from?

[Hobbes199]

64. Yes, they are definitely better structured than we are.

Though I believe things are orchestrated from the top, he doesn't have to go pull the strings himself.

Very smart people. Too bad they aren't on our side.

[txindy]

57. Uh-huh

:eyes: Please. If there was fraud on our side, it'd be on the front page of every newspaper in the country.

Nonsense. We don't lie. We're not pathetic losers like those who cheat to 'win'.

[The Flaming Red Head]

48. Sit Dems Sit, Now Beg, now Roll Over, got us all trained do they?

and accept your ass kicking from the party elite.

Next Yellow Dog I see (and I always voted for em) I'm calling the pound.

They work for us. We're not their pets.

[mother earth]

54. Calm down, Flaming...

Yes they work for us, but this is a different "war", so different methods have to be used, we have no choice to wait this thing out. If they disappoint us & nothing is accomplished, but we have to give them the benefit of the doubt at this point. We know it can't happen overnight, as much as we would like it to.

[The Flaming Red Head]

69. If I was calm I wouldn't be constantly Flaming

the only way they're going to do anything is if we stay on their asses and stay on this topic.

[Must_B_Free]

55. There was a pregnant pause from Randi that was very revealing

I think the caller totally nailed her in the contradiction of her bullshit.

He said - you're saying there was fraud and if so, why aren't any of our leaders addressing this.

Then she says "I don't know that there was fraud". Well Jesus, Randi, how can you deny saying that?

The shit from the Bev gang today was embarassing - you think John Kerry is planning on getting into the whitehouse via three people driving around Florida who thinking that someone poisoned their pie and disabled there cell phones?

This pile of shit smelled like roses two weeks ago, but now it's starting to stink.

[ahyums]

58. I'm 99% sure that the pie thing was someone else's joke anyway

if Kerry does still get to the whitehouse it'll almost certainly be through Ohio

[Must_B_Free]

61. Oh - I was wondering why the media was ignoring Bev's poisoning

Maybe that story was put on lockdown too? :eyes:

[baba]

66. Poison pie?

I don't get it....whattedimiss?

[meisje]

59. I heard Cheney was spotted tailing her car

[Must_B_Free]

63. I heard Cheney was tailed spotting her car...

[Hobbes199]

65. I heard she had a spotted tail put on Cheney's car...

[Must_B_Free]

67. I hear she spotted Cheney getting some tail in his car

And the bumpersticker said "If the van's rockin' don't come knockin'"

[peacetalksforall]

68. In this situation, the number one enemy is the media. If they don't

report, it is better as far as the work that has to be done.

I can only place my trust in a guess that there is a scheme that is intended to outsmart Rovian un-American thieves who stole our votes.

If our Dem leaders are screwing us, it is the absolute end for me until someone wants to lead the victims of this country.

We placed our trust in traditional politicians like Kerry and Edwards - we'll soon find out what they are doing. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt for now. If we're screwed, that is the end of traditional, seasoned, do nothing, Washington politicians for a whole lot of people because it will mean they are partners with the right wing.

We're luckier than all the dummies who didn't know why they voted for Bush other than their mono-reason for existing - Vietnam, greed, fear, hate, fetuses, guns, killing Iraqis, stuck at 9-11, blindness to the corruption and traitorous affiliations of PNAC and the Fed Society with Israel.

My reason for existing is this country and what it used to mean. People trying. People of a generous heart. We cannot learn that it is too late - that Israel and earth resource's are the end all and that colorless slavery will be back.