Are thoughts sin?

[Nikia]

I pose this question to people who of course believe in sin. I am of the Christian persuasion, but am persuing my own spiritual journey and forming my own theology on things rather than taking any one denomination's word for it.
In the ten commandments, coveting is condemned. In the Sermon on the Mount Jesus condemns lust and hate. These scriptures suggest that thoughts can be sin. On the otherhand, aren't thoughts often part of automatic emotion, things that we can't necessarily control. What is the difference between that and temptation. Isn't it of greater character, for example, to be tempted to cheat on a test and have every oppurtunty but to do what is right instead? If one never has the urge to sin in action than turning away from sin would not be a big deal, would it? On the otherhand, I do think that it is good to move spiritually towards eliminating things like hate and envy from one's regular thoughts. Does anyone have thoughts on this?

[Sanity Claws]

1. Catholics think so

I was raised Catholic and you could sin in thought, word, or deed. I agree with you that if you are unaware of the temptation by a fleeting thought, you are not making the choice of good vs. evil. Knowing the options and choosing the good sounds more virtuous to me.

[meow2u3]

18. Clarification of "sins of thought"

Also, according to the Catholic Church:
Fleeting thoughts are not necessarily sins, though they can be temptations. It's the thoughts that one dwells on and allows to fester that can be sins.

[rogerashton]

2. Thinking is a sin.

Always. Whenever you think for yourself, that's a sin. Depend on it.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

3. This gets into

a spiritual concept on how things are really created, I think. The theory is that all that is material is actually crystalized thought. If you've read any of the Seth materials, you know that the basic tenet of that work is that each person creates his own reality, and that thoughts (and attitudes) are a part of this process.

Sufis say that thoughts do make a great deal of difference. Haz. Inayat Khan wrote that one can tell the difference between a shirt lovingly made for them and a shirt made in a factory. My husband has had the experience of eating food made by a cook who was happy and a cook who was angry. No difference in the quality of food or preperation, but the food made by the angry cook made people ill.

[Joe Chi Minh]

32. The most tasty food

I ever ate was prepared by nuns and a devout Catholic woman with a good heart. By far the most marvellous-tasting wine I ever drank (though I've never been smitten with wine) was the Italian table wine I drank as a guest of Italian missionaries. Atheists will believe it of course, except as some kind of auto-suggestion.

[JVS]

4. I confess to having sinned in thought, word and deed before each service..

so I'm going to have to say yes

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

6. Lutheran?

sounds like it.

[JVS]

7. Yes

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

10. Me too. I have often thought about that particular phrase and

how it relates to our particular beliefs. Even though that is what is says, many many Lutheran theologians have essentially ignored it. So I suppose, yes, impure thoughts are sin, whereas actions are SIN.

Kind of a fine point, but an interesting one.

[JVS]

15. my post was really intended to answer the subject line's question...

but I think that an elaboration may be in order. It is definitely possible to sin by thought alone. bearing a grudge, lusting, hoping to swindle someone, blasphemy (i.e being angry at God and holding him in contempt), taking joy in someone else's suffering; all of those are sins that are done purely in the mind.

Now as far as what is the difference between temptation and sin, the answer becomes less clear. I wouldn't worry too much about it though. We should neither be commited to proving that it is not a sin, because doing so is indicates a desire on our part to "beat the rap", as if it would really help us. As we know: if we claim we are without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. Nor should we dispair that experiencing temptation is a terrible sin that will cause us harm and remove us from God's grace, because we know that if we confess our sins we will be forgiven.

The only issue that this leaves is, "do we need to know something is a sin in order for it to be confessed?" The answer is simple: no. I base my opinion on the Small Catechism, which says:


Q. Which sins should people confess?

A. When speaking to God, we should plead guilty to all sins, even those we don't know about , just as we do in the "Our Father," but when speaking to the confessor, only the sins we know about, which we know about and feel in our hearts.

Q. Which are these?

A. Consider here your place in life according to the Ten Commandments. Are you a father? A mother? A son? A daughter? A husband? A wife? A servant? Are you disobedient, unfaithful or lazy? Have you hurt anyone with your words or actions? Have you stolen, neglected your duty, let things go or injured someone?

[pelagius]

5. Sins are generally acts of will...

...and not things that pop up at random. For example, an angry thought isn't, imo, a sin in and of itself. It's how you handle the thought. Do you cling to it? Do you push it further in anger? Do you return to it again and again? Do you act on it, even indirectly?

But the rising and falling of anger (or lust, or pride, or ...) isn't in and of itself a sin, it seems to me.

[T_i_B]

8. I'm going to say yes here

And here is evidence for that from the Sermon on the Mount.

http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?passage=MATT+5&language=english&version=NIV

21"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder,and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.'
22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca, ' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.
23"Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you,
24 Leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift.
25 "Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still with him on the way, or he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison.
26 I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.
27 "You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.'
28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
29 If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.
30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

A large part of being "born again" is being changed not only in actions, but in thoughts as well. Sin starts off with thoughts before it becomes action. It is not easy (and I fail on this point as much as anyone), but it is of course the most worthwhile thing in the world.

[Done]

9. Sin is in the thought, not the action

The action is merely a manifestation of sin. If a married woman is raped, does she sin? Did Christ sin against the money changers? If there is a God, and a resurrection, then death is not the end; death is not death. When you kill someone, you don't really kill them since they are not really dead. The sin of the murderer would be the hatred, greed, or indifference that caused them to kill. If you kill a terminal loved one to save them from a slow painful death, there would be no sin. How could God have killed so many people in stories of the Bible? God had reasons for what He did, but His heart is pure beyond comprehension. Sin must be in the heart, and not the action. I can imagine no other way to read the stories of the Bible and still believe in a loving God.

[Nikia]

19. Is not going through with the action, a sort of repentance then?

For example, when I decided not to cheat on my test, which I thought about, even though I would have been able to at any time during the test (honor code, alone in the room with my notes and book in my bag nearby), was that a sort of repentance? If a married man lusted after another woman, and the object of his lust declared her desire to have sex with him and he turned her down, is that a repentance? Now that I think about it, perhaps it is. I know what you are saying about intentions, but actions require decision where as thoughts aren't always a decision.

[mrgorth]

11. We make our own hell

and living in sin, esp in thought, constructs that hell. For instance, say you have a loving wife but you covet another woman. Regardless of any afterlife punishment you are making yourself suffer the coveting rather than living in love and appreciation of your wife. Like the others said, a brief passing thought is one thing, allowing yourself to, say, lust for money is sin even if you don't think you are acting on it. Peace.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

12. Fundamentalists can drive themselves crazy with this

They tell teens that even thinking about sex is sinful, so of course, in the spirit of "don't think of an elephant," they become tortured by guilt for something that is really involuntary.

However, I distinguish passing thoughts that bubble out of the unconscious from deliberate wallowing in hatred, resentment, or plans to do harm.

Jesus talked about hatred as equivalent to murder and lust as equivalent to adultery, but there's another way of looking at it. Jesus had to deal with the Pharisees, who felt that they were better than other people because they tried hard to keep their external behavior perfect. What Jesus was trying to do here was to remind the Pharisees that despite their outward behavior, they still had the same potential to sin as anyone else and should not feel pride at their strict adherence to the moral codes of their day.

[wurzel]

13. Jesus thought so. Which is the biggest reason I am not a Christian.

[Brentos]

14. I would say yes

But, keep in mind, sin is the absense of God. When their is sin, you must turn towards God and ask forgiveness. That is all. This sin isn't anything to worry too much about, as long as in your heart you know you are sorry and ask forgiveness. Being in this world, we have no choice but to sin, it is impossible not to, but our reactions to it make our differences.

I agree with the earlier post about actions not being the sin. It is the thought that counts. Old Testament explanation: In Leviticus (or Deuteronomy) it gives the law/story about a man who mends his fence on the Sabbath. That was considered a sin. The reason (as Jesus later points out) is that the working on the Sabbath isn't a sin, it is the thought to you that work that day is more important than God. In other words, by doing so at that time, you were turning your back on God (sin = absence of God).

Jesus explains that if your donkey is trapped in a hole on the Sabbath, of course you can work to get it out. It is all dependant on your heart.

Humans, by nature, have animalistic impulses which we strive to overcome. When they become chosen thought, they become sin and need to be atoned for. Jesus died for all of our sins for all time, so they are forgiven, but if one's heart is not penatent, one is easily swayed away from God (into sin).

Thanks,
-Brent

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

16. Nice example. Welcome to DU

:hi:

[Brentos]

17. Thanks!

And thanks for the cute smiley-wave hi! (And please forgive some of my atrocious spelling in my post, as it was done a lunch-hour at work!) :-)

Long-time liberal, short time post-er! :-)

Thanks,
-Brent

[TreasonousBastard]

30. Good reply that gets to the heart of the matter...

without bothering to define "sin."

In most Christian traditions, the idea is to form a normative ethic-- words and actions come from inner moral beliefs. Outwardly, the actions may or may not seem moral or ethical, but they come from one's deeper beliefs.

Also in the Christian tradition, the actions themselves may or may not be proper in the eyes of man, but they are seen differently in the eyes of God. God looks into the soul and sees the reason for such action, and will deal with it accordingly, knowing that many "good works" are done for selfish reasons. And vice versa. Salvation may come at any time simply through belief, even with no outward sign of belief.

It is absolutely the thought that counts, and the action is only a secondary effect.

My tradition doesn't talk much of "sin" because of the difficulty of defining it and the difficulty of seeing through God's eyes. We simply figure that if we are doing what we believe to be the "right thing" it will all work out in the end.

The whole business of sin has had a convoluted history in Christian theology. Rarely is it stated that there is no point to good if there is no evil, but it seems to be understood, even if not explicity stated. The Garden of Eden story, Paradise Lost, the various interplays with Satan in both testaments... Satan in some ways validates God, but most Christian writers prefer to dance around that idea, even when talking about the necessity of free will in order to properly accept and worship God. The duality is obvious, but not given as much play as in other disciplines. Ying and Yang are not equal in traditional Christian theology.

[Frogtutor]

20. I like to think of it as a way to keep myself in check, and improve

I always ask for forgiveness for "ungenerosity of spirit", things like prejudging others, having unkind thoughts about people, etc. even if I only voice it in my own head. It makes me stop and think about the perspectives of others. For example, if someone pulls out in front of me in traffic; my first reaction may be anger, and I might think, "You're a stupid a-hole!" or even think they did it intentionally, or something. Those things MIGHT be true, but it's also possible that they just made a mistake; maybe they were temporarily distracted, or their view was obstructed, etc. I remind myself that I am human, and I make stupid mistakes, too. I'd rather people not react hostilly to me, so maybe I should try not to be hostile either. It doesn't always work, but it keeps me thinking about how I might become a better person.

I meant to add: I believe our thoughts and perspectives shape our behavior, so maybe trying to change or improve the way we think improves our behavior.

Just my 2 cents!

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

21. Well according to modern medicine you are on to something

that is the whole theory behind psychotropic drugs, calm the thought, calm the moods.... calmer moods lead to calmer thoughts....

[Frogtutor]

25. See post #24: It was supposed to be a reply to yours...

I had never heard that, but it makes a great deal of sense, and I've seen the evidence in my own experiences. Cool!

:think:

[Brentos]

22. Perception is Reality

I agree, I try to follow a similar method. I believe that perception is reality, so if I perceive everyone around me being stupid a-holes, then that is the world I have chosen to live in. If, instead, I believe everyone around me is generally a good person who, like me, can make mistakes, I have chosen a much happier life. It allows me to remain an optimist!

Thanks,
-Brent

[Frogtutor]

23. Welcome Brent!

Yeah, I'm an optimist, too...I wonder if being optimistic makes us think like that, or if thinking like that makes us optimistic?


Hmmmm...

[Brentos]

27. Thinking

I believe thinking like that makes us optimists. I used to be a pessimist, but started doing mental exercises (that I didn't even believe would work) and eventually, they worked! yay! By practicing positive thinking, you will become more positive, even if you don't believe it! Pretty cool stuff!

Thanks,

-Brentos, the Freshmaker

[Frogtutor]

24. Oh, yeah: I forgot to mention that Paxil and Wellbutrin help...

Well, they help me, at least!

:bounce:

[enki23]

26. ENKI'S THOUGHT COMMANDMENTS:

1. Thou Shalt Not Itch
2. Thou Shalt Not Think of a Polar Bear
3. Forget About Tuesday, For It Is Unholy
4. Think only of Yellowish Things, For This Pleases The LORD
5. Thou Shalt Not Become Angry
6. Thou Shalt Not See Breasts
7. Thou Shalt Not Want Things
8. Thou Shalt Not Be Depressed
9. Thou Shalt Not Thirst
10. Thou Shalt Not Want Horses, or Shoelaces, or Chewing Gum, or Crack, or Pop Tarts, or Tennis Rackets, or Pork Rinds, or Anything.


(except this lamp. and that's all i need, too)

[ExclamationPoint]

28. Thoughts are not sin.

A persons mind is their last solace. I can't beleive anyone who thinks personal thoughts can be sin. That's just horrible.

[selmo7]

29. Some thoughts I wrote a while back

in response to the news that B* couldn't admit a mistake save that he might have appointed some people wrongly. There is also an adage about "pure in thought, word and deed" that I respect but when we lust in our thoughts (like Jimmy Carter did) I think we probably shouldn't beat up on ourselves too much. Desire serves as well...well if it's "pure lust" then I guess it's okay :-).

What does it mean to sin?

Sin comes from the Greek word, hamartia, meaning to “miss the mark.”

Think of this in the context of our current President Bush who cannot admit the mistakes he has made, that he has “missed the mark” that he has “sinned” (to the tune of 120,000+ human lives), for which most people of conscience would feel genuinely guilty, remorseful and feel the need to make amends. He claims almost messianically to be “without sin” (except for the ones he won’t name but it is assumed he is referring to his appointments of people who turned out to be whistleblowers for his failed policies). So for the Christians, will he be “saved?” Well it’s not for me to judge, I only point this out for contemplation for the benefit of the more scripturally inclined.....

http://www.lessons4living.com/enneagram_of_sin.htm

“This Greek word means "to miss the mark." So, sin is that which makes you miss the mark in life. The "mark" is psychological and spiritual wholeness. Sin is that which derails us in life. It causes us to get off track and miss the goal.”

http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Sin

“The Greek word hamartia is often translated as sin in the New Testament; it means "to miss the mark" or "to miss the target".”

[Mabeline]

31. Good question, as a Christian myself I have wondered

that myself...I gotta admit I have had some very mean thoughts myself, like the last time my neighbor showed her butt and tried too get my DH to hit her, yeah I had some MAJOR mean thoughts. The only answer I have come up with is we strive to maintain God in our daily life and should try and do it in our thoughts as well, but I believe we all sin daily and when we pray that sin in thought is what we ask Him for forgivness for as well as the big things, like actually hitting the neighbor (even if she deserved it..LOL!)

I try not to use the word hate in my life and try and teach my kids that as well. IMHO it's a very srtong emotion and destructive to only ourself if we let it fester.

Envy is much harder for me.