Were there ethnic Jews before the existence of Judaism?

[Boojatta]

Poll question: Were there ethnic Jews before the existence of Judaism?

[Cleita]

1. Huh?

Doesn't the Torah explain that all Jews come from Abraham and Abraham was from Ur a pagan city in ancient times. Whether this is true or not doesn't matter because Jews believe this to be true and actually Arabs do as well because Arabs trace their ancestry to Abraham as well.

[Boojatta]

7. "Whether this is true or not doesn't matter"

I suspect that you've listened to too much GWB.

[Cleita]

12. Get real. There isn't much empirical proof of anything written down in the

Bible especially that far back. You have to take these traditions on faith. Isn't that what it's all about?

[Boojatta]

8. "Arabs trace their ancestry to Abraham as well."

That's an odd claim for you to make. Do Morocco's Berbers trace their ancestry to Abraham or do Morocco's Berbers deny that they're Arabs?

[Cleita]

10. Your confusing Islam with ethnicity.

Berbers are sometimes considered indo aryan, however, it's up in the air and I will let the anthropologists weigh into this instead. Arabs consider themselves descended from Ishmael, Abraham's son by Hagar, Sara's Egyptian maid.

[Boojatta]

11. How did Islam enter this discussion?

[Cleita]

13. Well, you tell me what you mean then because you aren't making any sense.

What the Berbers have in common with other ME cultures is Islam so I assumed that is what you meant.

[Boojatta]

15. Do Morocco's Berbers deny that they're Arabs?

[Cleita]

17. I don't know. Do they?

You seem to be the expert so you tell me. All I know is what the anthropologists think they are. I personally do not know any Berbers but my husband did when he lived in Morrocco and he said that many had European features and coloring.

[Boojatta]

21. I seem to be the expert, but I'm not making sense?

[Cleita]

23. Buh by!

This thread is just stupid and I'm sorry if I thought there could be an intelligent discussion here.

[Boojatta]

25. "I'm sorry if I thought there could be an intelligent discussion here."

If I discovered an intelligent discussion in one of my threads, then I would try to convert it from a discussion to a sequence of computer instructions. Thus, I would have a sample of true artificial intelligence.

[Cleita]

18. Dupe

[Lydia Leftcoast]

37. According to both Biblican and Koranic traditions

the Jews are the descendants of Isaac, the son of Abraham and his wife Sarah, while the Arabs are the descendants of Ishmael (Arabic Ismail), the son of Abraham and his slave Hagar.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

38. Morrocco's Berbers are not Arabs

They're a distinct ethnic group who speak a different language than the majority Arab population.

An Arab is anyone whose native language is Arabic. They can be either Muslim (the majority) or Christian (minorities in the Eastern Mediterranean), and their physical traits and local cultures vary, but they all speak Arabic.

The Berbers are Muslim, but they live in Algeria as well as in Morrocco.

[Boojatta]

42. "An Arab is anyone whose native language is Arabic."

When you used the words "native language", did you simply mean "mother tongue"? Alternatively, are you proposing classifying people by the languages spoken by their ancestors?

Chomsky wrote these words: "speaks Arabic and passes for Arab." Should I assume that he meant exactly the same thing as "speaks Arabic and passes for someone whose mother tongue is Arabic"?

Chomsky: US public irrelevant

[Igel]

39. Of course.

Recently Qaddhafi raised hackles by saying, in a speech, that all the population of Libya were Arabs.

The Berbers went ballistic, and pointed out that they were not Arabs.

Qaddhafi revised his statement for the next speech. There were Arabs, he said, and that included the Berber Arabs.

Again, the Berbers went ballistic.

However, "Arab" is a funny kind of construct. It's rather like "American" as an ethnicity. If you speak Arabic, give allegiance to the standard language, and have a reasonable subset of Arab customs and attitudes, you're Arab; you may be looked down upon, if you're too dark-skinned, but you're still Arab. Berbers speak, well, Berber--a language distantly related to Arabic, and one that gave linguists fits in accounting for some of its phonological properties. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berber_languages (alas, the aberrant properties aren't mentioned in wiki :-(

[Boojatta]

41. "It's rather like 'American' as an ethnicity."

Could you give a few examples of shared characteristics of 'Arab' and 'American' as ethnicities? Also, aren't there any Berber-Americans?

[atreides1]

2. No

According to Jewish tradition, the history of Judaism begins with the Covenant between God and Abraham (ca. 2000 BCE), the patriarch and progenitor of the Jewish people.

[ret5hd]

6. So this "Covenant" also changed their ethnicity???

That's one hella "covenant", able to change bloodlines and all that whatnot.

[Boojatta]

9. Well, if Obama's father had been white and his mother had been black...

then assuming that it's correct to say that Obama would in that counterfactual hypothetical be black, we would be able to conclude that Obama didn't inherit his father's ethnicity.

[Meshuga]

16. Ethnicity is not equal to race

There is no such a thing as a Jewish race but there is a Jewish ethnicity. When people convert to Judaism they become part of the Jewish people. There is no blood exchange.

[TZ]

26. ehhh..I wanna nitpick here...

There has been so much inbreeding in some Jewish populations that I would say that its a race too technically..For instance Azkeneshi(sp) Jews have different genetic tendencies and diseases that they are prone to than many other ethnic groups. In fact, the chronic blood disorder is fairly random..but there is ONE ethnic group that seems to have a slightly higher tendency to have this disorder..guess which one...:)

[Meshuga]

28. Sure the Ashkenazim share genetic tendencies and diseases

...and so do Sephardim (my own background) but how do they relate in shared diseases and physical traits when we compare them to Mizrakhim, Indian Jews, North African Jews, Yemenite Jews, Ethiopian Jews, etc.?

On edit: changed the subject line to make it more clear

[Boojatta]

32. Was it essential for me to use the word "race" or the word "ethnicity"?

Do you detect any error in the following?

If Obama's father had been white and his mother had been black
and if Obama in that case wouldn't have been white, then in that scenario Obama's father would be white, but Obama wouldn't be white.

[no_hypocrisy]

3. If I remember what I learned in Sunday School, they were referred to as Hebrews.

[Boojatta]

29. Did they all understand the ancient Hebrew language?

[no_hypocrisy]

30. Unfortunately I dropped out of Sunday School before we got to that part.

*Google"

[JuniperLea]

4. This chicken and egg question is key

It's been argued for a very long time.

I can join a religion, but I can't join an ethnic group.

[Meshuga]

19. Yes you can join an ethnicity

Otherwise people would not be able to convert to Judaism.

[JuniperLea]

22. Nope

I'd still be of British ancestry, and my ethnicity wouldn't change... only my religion. Just as it would change if I were to embrace Roman Catholicism, or Buddhism. I wouldn't become a Roman, or Chinese.

[Meshuga]

24. Sure you would be of british ancestry

But you would also become part of the Jewish people and by converting the assumption is that you also embrace Jewish folkways and peoplehood. Otherwise there is no point in converting to Judaism. You don't need to be a Jew to follow Judaism since adherence to Jewish spirituality does not make a person Jewish. You need to be a Jew only if you want to be part of the Jewish people.

[rockymountaindem]

5. That depends on...

whether you think Judaism was adopted as a faith/culture by a whole culture at once, or whether a bunch of people started following the religion and then coalesced into an ethnic group. At this point I don't know if anybody can say.

[Meshuga]

14. The question is unclear

Do you mean Judaism as we know today (Rabbinical Judaism?) or the different "Judaisms" followed by Jewish sects that disappeared? If you mean Rabbinical Judaism (Judaism as we know today) then the Jewish people preceeds Judaism. If you mean all of the other Judaism then the answer is "who the heck knows?" :-)

According to Jewish tradition the birth of the Jewish people was at Sinai. But I don't think there is a clear historical evidence of when the Jewish people actually came to be.

[Cleita]

20. Yes, it is and the OP is not making his position any clearer.

I'm outta here.

[Boojatta]

27. I hope MrWiggles appreciates getting such a scintillating reply.

[TechBear_Seattle]

31. Judaism, as such, did not exist until about 539 BCE. The Jews, as a people, existed before then

First off, you need to be aware of the etymology of the words "Jew" and "Judaism." Both derive from the Hebrew word YHVDH, "Yehudah," usually Latinized as Judah.

Second, a quick history lesson:

According to the Tanakh, the descendants of Jacob's twelve sons became the Twelve Tribes. As these tribes invaded and conquered Canaan, they carved out territories. For generations, these territories were independent and often at war with each other. Saul of the tribe of Benjamin made an alliance with the elders of Judah and began a campaign of conquest over the other ten territories and naming his united kingdom Israel, a name given by God to Jacob. This campaign was completed under David of Benjamin. This kingdom remained united under David's son, Solomon.

On Solomon's death, however, the kingdom was split between his sons. The Southern Kingdom, with its capital at Jerusalem, was known as the Kingdom of Judah; it comprised of the ancient territories of Judah and Benjamin. The Northern Kingdom, with its capital at Shechem and latter Tirza and Shomron, was known as the Kingdom of Israel; it comprised of the ancient territories of the other ten tribes. The end of the United Kingdom took place around 930 BCE (and yes, this is real history, not just Biblical legend.) Arguably, the people living in the Kingdom of Judah from this time on can be referred to as Jews.

Around 720 BCE, the Assyrians invaded the Northern Kingdom and conquered it. Following the practice of the time, Assyria deported a large majority of the inhabitants and imported other people from around their empire to take control of the cities and fields. The idea was to break up ethnic groups which might serve as a focus of revolt and make the people dependent on the Assyrian language and culture. The Israelites were lost to history from that time on, assimilated into the Assyrian empire, giving rise to the legends of the "Ten Lost Tribes." The capital of Israel at that time, Shomron, was latter renamed Samaria and its people became known as Samaritans.

The Southern Kingdom avoided the same fate by submitting to the Assyrian Empire and becoming a vassal state. When the empire crumbled, Judah again claimed independence. In 586 BCE, it was invaded and conquered by the Babylonians. They began a campaign of ethnic eradication much like the Assyirians, but on-going wars with Persia ment that the pogroms were never carried out fully. Rather than being spread through the Babylonian Empire, many Jewish scholars and leaders were taken to Babylon as hostages, serving the emperors. This "Babylonian Captivity" lasted until Persia's victory over Babylon in 539 BCE.

Persia had its hands full in consolidating the core Babylonian provinces, so King Darius of Persia allowed the Jewish captives to return home. Two groups were sent back: one was led by Ezra and one by Nehemiah. Under Ezra, Jerusalem was refortified and the Temple was rebuilt.

There is evidence in both the Tanakh and in archaeological finds which indicate that the Exile had a profound impact on the religion of Judah. Among a number of other changes, the pre-Exilic religion was henotheistic, ie they believed in the existence of many gods but only one god, Yahweh, could be worshipped; the post-Exilic religion was markedly monotheist and declared the existence of one and only one god.

Ok, as for your question about Jews and Judaism. The earliest Jews would have been those members of the Tribe of Judah, descendants of Jacob's fourth son. Then there were the natialistic Jews, residents of the Kingdom of Judah. These Jews predate the advent of Judaism by centuries.

[Dorian Gray]

34. Great information

You and Mr. Wiggles turned this thread into a real educational thread. Thanks for that.

[Meshuga]

36. I would probably go a couple of centuries further

Judaism as it exists today started only with the Pharisaic Revolution probably sometime in the second century BCE. Until then the priestly class ruled the temple based religion where religious rites/sacrifices were used as means of atonement, protection, having a good harvest, etc. The idea of the oral Torah was brought to life by the Pharisaic sect who took power with the Oral Torah.

I think the OP means "Pharisaic Judaism" (the only form of Judaism that survived after the fall of the Second Temple) so the Jewish people definitely precede Judaism by a long time.

While I do agree that there is some history (about kingdoms, conquests, etc.) to the Tanakh, I believe the legend of Jacob and his decedents were placed in the mix for political reasons.

But there are ancient stories about the evolution of the Jewish people that was put together into one body of work to create the context of what it is today and the context in the sixth century BCE.
I find this interesting because it shows the progression in what God (in a henotheistic or monotheistic sense) served for:

There is a story about a semi-nomadic people who had a God as a problem solver via a patriarch figure.
There is a story about a people in the wilderness who had their problems solved by a God via prophet(s)
There is a story about a prophet class that anointed kings in order to fight wars for them.
There is a story about a class of monarchs who fought wars and were taken down by prophets if kings didn't comply with what God demanded. Some of these kings held on to power by adopting polytheism thus ignoring the prophets who had a direct line to God.
There was a priestly class that controlled the religion and put the written Torah together to what it is today in order to gain total power (i.e. making Moses the most important prophet in order to take authority away from the prophet class).

The Pharisaic scholars came in the picture in the second century BCE and introduced the twofold law thus taking away the power from the priestly class. Temple based Judaism obviously died with the fall of the temple and so did other sects. Pharisaic Judaism survived and transformed itself into what it is today with Jews creatively reshaping Judaism according to the influence of the society they live under.

You should read "The Unity Principle" by Ellis Rivkin if you enjoy the subject. It's a pretty cool book. He is probably one one of my favorite historians.

[Dorian Gray]

33. Semites,

I suppose.

[and-justice-for-all]

35. I will say NO....

Jews, after being released from Babylon and sent to 'wander' the desert, were Hebrews that did not practice modern Jewish religion. They in fact worshiped Sumarian/Babylonian/Persian deities and even made sacrifices to a few of them.

So, no, ethnic Jews(Modern Jews) did not exist until after the establishment of Judaism.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

40. Actually, it was after being released from EGYPT that they wandered in the desert

and yes, there was a lot of polytheism going on in those days, more in the north than in the south.

After the return from Babylon, where they had to rebuild their society from scratch, their monotheistic traditions were reinterpreted and recodified in what we now know as the Book of Deuteronomy. The other four books of the Torah (Genesis, Exodus, Numbers, and Leviticus) are older and were most likely known before the exile, but not before the Hebrew people had conquered Canaan after being released from Egypt.

But they did have a distinct ethnic and religious identity before the Babylonian captivity. The writings of some of the prophets date from before the Exile for sure.