Christian Groups: Katrina was God’s Retribution for Homosexuality

[Seeker30]

The nuts are at it again:

NEW ORLEANS, LA – As most of the nation mourns the tremendous loss of life, extreme property destruction and the rest of the as-yet-uncalculated damage wrought by Hurricane Katrina, some far right-wing conservative Christian groups are citing social decay as the cause for the massive storm, essentially claiming that a vengeful God had lost patience with America’s sinful ways.

“Although the loss of lives is deeply saddening, this act of God destroyed a wicked city,” said Repent America director Michael Marcavage in a statement on the group’s website (www.repentamerica.com). “From ‘Girls Gone Wild’ to ‘Southern Decadence,’ New Orleans was a city that had its doors wide open to the public celebration of sin. From the devastation may a city full of righteousness emerge.”

Such sentiments were echoed on the website of the Westboro Baptist Church (www.godhatesfags.com), which sported such boldface headlines as, “Pray for more dead bodies floating on the fag-semen-rancid waters of New Orleans,” “It is a sin NOT to rejoice when God executes His wrath and vengeance upon America,” and, “America is irreversibly doomed. It is a sin to pray for the good of this evil fag nation.”
more at http://www.ynot.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=news_article&sid=9734

[goodboy]

1. yeah, and tornadoes occur because some pagan didn't make chocolate

crosses on easter.

[liberal N proud]

2. Those groups can't be Christian groups

They are radical groups and should fall under the terrorist definitions.

[Seeker30]

7. In a normal world

But not in Bush's world.

[Bill McBlueState]

8. why can't they be both?

Sounds to me like they are Christian terrorists. That particular religion isn't immune to that way of thinking.

[liberal N proud]

9. They may call themselves Christian but, by definition

Christian would not hold any contempt or hate for another person.
They aren't following Jesus teaching very closely if they hate other people.

[Bill McBlueState]

15. where is that defined?

Hate and contempt are the public face of much of Christianity in the US. I could make a list of well-known Christians who encourage hate and contempt, but I'm sure you know who they are. Are you claiming that none of them are "true Christians"? Is it your right to define who's part of a religion and who isn't? And how am I, someone who's not a Christian, to know the difference?

Besides, Jesus teaches hate. I don't know what Bible you're reading, but he's thought to have said, "If any man come to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple." (Luke 14:26)

Sounds like Jesus wants his disciples to be a hateful bunch. And they're doing a good job of it.

I have yet to hear an atheist blame the victims of Katrina for what happened.

[FreedomAngel82]

22. Oh hon

You don't get it. Christ is saying to put your faith and God before your family. :eyes: Picking and choosing hon. Picking and choosing. When was the last time you ever heard any of these groups quote Christ? Show me where they quote Christ.

[salvorhardin]

24. How about here?

From the Columbia Christains For Life website. You know, one of those "not true Christain" groups who declared that Katrina was God's wrath for abortions.

“… I will build My church; and the gates of hell shall not
prevail against it.” Matthew 16:18
http://www.christianlifeandliberty.net/miss_newsletter.htm

and

* We believe the Bible, the 66 books of the Old Testament and New Testament, to be the inspired and inerrant Word of God, the complete revelation of His will for the salvation of mankind, and the divine, supreme, and final authority for all Christian faith, life, and conduct.
http://www.christianlifeandliberty.net/webelieve.htm

[Modem Butterfly]

25. The problem with Christ...

...is that he supposedly said a whole lot of stuff 2000 years ago that people continue to try to apply to our current day situation. Christ didn't say anything directly about abortion because abortion wasn't an issue for women back then, it was simply a normal part of birth control. Likewise, Christ didn't have much to say about conserving gas, internet pornography or tarrifs in international trade, either. Of course, when you think about it, shouldn't a god-man being have been able to shed a little light on the future?

[SPKrazy]

113. Do You Think Anyone Then Would Have Understood What He Was Talking About?

If God really spoke to people now few would listen, or we would lock people up if they said they God did speak to them (unless they are booosh, in which case they would appoint him pResident when he should be locked up)

I see your point and it isn't the problem with Christ IMO, it's the problem that people have when they either a) try to apply Christ's words spoken 2000 years ago about things today that he wasn't speaking about; or b) make shit up out of their ass; or c) they selectively choose scripture out of context to tie it in with whatever issue they are speaking of (which is really a & b)

[FreedomAngel82]

37. And that's all you found??

[salvorhardin]

41. You asked

to be shown where any of these groups quote Christ. I showed you. They're Christains, and therefore they quote the Bible. Falwell and Pat Robertson do it all the time. The fact that you don't like their actions does not make them any less Christains. It's a binary thing. You either follow Christ's teachings as detailed in the Bible or you don't.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

79. Huh?

I accept them as Christians. Every family has black sheep. But please don't tell me that as a Christian I have to accept the Bible as fact. I don't; my denomination does not.

Yes, I get to pick and choose. We all do. Christianity has evolved in the past 2000 years for many of us and we are glad for the evolution.

[SPKrazy]

97. Good Point

I'm adding to the new postings in the old thread too.

I've noticed this one here for a few days.

[beam me up scottie]

99. Not exactly,

sal was responding to this :

Oh hon

You don't get it. Christ is saying to put your faith and God before your family. Picking and choosing hon. Picking and choosing. When was the last time you ever heard any of these groups quote Christ? Show me where they quote Christ.

He was just turning it around on her.

[SPKrazy]

102. And It's From Your Favorite "Hon" No Less

LOL

okay, good catch

:silly:

On edit, I was responding to T-Grannie's post about not taking the bible literally, but the whole thread is strange. One can't argue that those who claim to follow Christ but don't do it your way aren't Christians, why that's the same thing the fundies say about liberal Christians like me!

Why we have a gay bishop within our Church and that has put us on the bench of the Anglican Communion because not everyone thinks that's okay within the Anglican Communion (of which there are fundies also) much less the fundieland of America

[beam me up scottie]

103. Yes,

you can see how that whole "hon" thing could get irritating.:freak:

[SPKrazy]

105. Yes, It Seems Like A "Bless Your Pointy Little Head" Hon

than any other kind of "hon"

actually I can't stand that type of speech pattern, and I live in the South where I hear some folks talk like that commonly.

"Thanks hon" (or babe, or sweetie, or whatever)

Ya'all come back now ya hear!

:smoke:

[TallahasseeGrannie]

111. I think Scottie's interpretation is right

and you know, this morning, I am actually glad I read through this monster because I heard a lot of folks talking about Christians who said fundies were NOT Christians and I disagree with them (no owning the fundies) but I had never really read anyone saying that....this thread is an excellent example.

So I reiteratie. We're in the boat with them. We can't kick them out. We can't judge their faith but we can certainly evaluate their actions.

T-G...calming down and not quite so embarassed..and grateful for the nice pats on the head from y'all

[beam me up scottie]

114. Oh, come on, T.Grannie.

I know you want to pitch them overboard.:evilgrin:

Maybe you could re-baptize them by holding their heads under the water until they see the light.


IMO, morally, you are head and shoulders above the christians who would throw the others out of the boat.

Especially the fundies, since they usually lump you in with the evil godless commie pinko atheists.

[dogday]

27. True Jesus did say that, but the context in which you

take it translates to a whole new meaning.

Jesus is speaking figuratively to those who would be his disciples and saying put him and his business above all, family, wife, etc. He is saying you might as well hate them cause I come first and if you can't abide by that, you cannot be a disciple.


Jesus and his disciples hateful, well there is a new on for DU. Thought I had heard just about all forms of slamming of Christianity, but I was wrong, you just won the prize for the worst.....

[Bill McBlueState]

39. thanks for the prize

If Christians are going to praise the hurricane as an act of their god, they're going to get slammed. That shows an utter lack of morals and compassion that should offend any thinking person.

Unless you feel the same way about the hurricane, I'm not sure what your problem is.

[dogday]

43. No I don't feel the same way about the hurricane.

BTW you didn't slam the Christians, you were slamming the Christ.

Jesus and his disciples are hateful was what I post to...

[TallahasseeGrannie]

80. You do realize that the people

who think that way (Katrina as retribution) are anomalies and getting a lot of press right now by a media whose mission is to divide us and keep the juicy stories coming? I have never heard those words from a real human, though I have read them online and in newspapers.

[BurtWorm]

46. Where is the marker on that passage to distinguish it as figurative?

Are the nouns figurative, too, or is it just the verb that's figurative?

[TallahasseeGrannie]

78. Actually

some Christians are rather nice people... not hateful at all. Right off the top of my head I come up with:

John F. Kerry; Jimmy Carter; Martin Luther King, Jr.; John F. Kennedy; Robert Kennedy; Ted Kennedy; Oscar Romero; Maya Angelou; Desmond Tutu; Faith Ringgold; Coretta Scott King; Sandra Day O'Connor; Bono; TS Eliot; Franklin Roosevelt; Carter Heyward; Bessie Delany; Margaret Mead; Barbara Harris; Madeleine L'Engle; Madeline Alblright; Eleanor Holmes Norton; Molly Ivins; Lady Bird Johnson; Theodore Geisel (Dr. Seuss); Dana Carvey; John Woo; Dag Hammarskold; Garrison Keillor; Alice Cooper; Martin Scorsese; Martin Sheen; Bill Clinton, Hilary Clinton; George McGovern; Rosa Parks; Sally Ride; Walter Mondale; TallahasseeGrannie.

And I do know at least one atheist who blames the victims of Katrina. My custodian. Has a Master's Degree in Biology but can't keep a job because he is such an outspoken bigot.

However, none of our beloved atheists here are that way.

It's all relative. All of it.

[salvorhardin]

17. I don't know. Sounds pretty close to the Jesus of the Bible to me...

Christians are always claiming, “he’s the lamb”, “our savior”, “the king of peace”, “the embodiment of love”, amongst the many other names they associate with a loving, merciful nature. Jesus a nice guy? Not in my book. Nor in any other person’s who is capable of compassion and rationality. Let’s examine who the hell the Jesus character really is. These verses will show not only is Jesus’ “loving” nature a joke but so are the Christians who worship him. Jesus’ real mission to come to earth:

Jesus says that he has come to destroy families by making family members hate each other. He has “come not to send peace, but a sword.” Matthew 10:34

Jesus says, “Don’t imagine that I came to bring peace on earth! No, rather a sword lf you love your father, mother, sister, brother, more than me, you are not worthy of being mine. “The real beauty of this verse is that Jesus demands people truly love him more then they love their own family. I ask you how can we love someone that we can not see or interact with? Love is an emotion pertaining to physical existence not to faithful ideologies, yet God threatens you with Death just because your love for your mother maybe stronger than your love for him. Matthew 10:34

Families will be torn apart because of Jesus. “Brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death." Matthew 10:21

Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets. He hasn’t the slightest objection to the cruelties of the Old Testament. Matthew 5:17

http://www.evilbible.com/what_would_jesus_do.htm

[salvorhardin]

21. To clarify

Many of these people you classify as "not true Christains" are Biblical fundamentalists. They believe in the Bible as the absolute word of God. You, yourself, may believe that Jesus was a peace-loving long-haired hippie dude but that is not what the Bible, the most holy book of the Christain religion, says. Since you're the one reinterpreting the holy scriptures to recast Jesus in a somewhat more agreeable light, then you're the one who isn't a true Christain. Before you start sputtering, that is what the fundamentalists believe and say.

They follow the Bible and Christ. You follow the Bible and Christ. You both claim to be "true Christains" and that the other is not. You can't have it both ways. A follower of Christ is a Christain. The fact that Christ's teachings are so open to conjecture and interpretation does not alter that fact.

[FreedomAngel82]

23. You're still picking and choosing

Still picking and choosing hon.

[trotsky]

48. As are you.

Which is kind of the whole point, "hon."

[shimmergal]

59. The Jesus Seminar estimates

that about 4/5 of the quotes attributed to Jesus were things he never said--that somebody added later 'cause they wanted to back up their own points.

And although maybe this group has some guesses as to which quotes are authentic, nobody really knows for sure. Jesus may never have said any of those things you're bad-mouthing him for.

[CarbonDate]

63. So you're saying that 80% of Jesus's teachings....

...as transcribed in the Bible are inaccurate? How does that not make the entire religion bullshit?

[SPKrazy]

100. Some Find It Bullshit

but others, (like me) choose to look at the spirit of the story, and not the letter of it (not a literalist here)

80% of quotes being anything close to accurate in books written well after the fact is not bad really.

But the story of how much God loves us humans is what I'm drawn to. The whole story could be made up but it is in line with what I believe (for the most part) about God, and love, and what the kingdom of heaven is (here on earth for us to enjoy not destroy)

[CarbonDate]

62. Jesus sounds more like a cult leader, to me.

Of course, that's probably because that's what he was.

[moobu2]

57. That's your opinion of what Christianity should be

not an absolute definition. If someone say's they're Christians then who are you or anyone to say otherwise? It's a very subjective.

[Modem Butterfly]

16. Sure they can be

If they worship Christ, then they are, by definition, Xian.

Maybe not your kind of Xian, but Xian just the same.

[liberal N proud]

28. It is not my kind but the one that is spelled out in the bible

the book these people claim to follow.

[Modem Butterfly]

29. That's just where the Bible led them

Anyone who has stood back and noticed the amazing diversity among Xians knows that the Bible has as many interpretations as it has followers...

[salvorhardin]

30. But that's the thing

You both claim to be following the same book, the word of God and the teachings of Christ. Therefore, by definition, you're both Christians.

[dwckabal]

52. Lincoln said the same thing in 1865

Neither party expected for the war the magnitude or the duration which it has already attained. Neither anticipated that the cause of the conflict might cease with or even before the conflict itself should cease. Each looked for an easier triumph, and a result less fundamental and astounding. Both read the same Bible and pray to the same God, and each invokes His aid against the other.

Abraham Lincoln
Second Inaugural Address
Saturday, March 4, 1865

[TallahasseeGrannie]

81. I would add that

anyone who is baptized is a Christian. I believe that is a requirement in every denomination, although at different times.

We Christians must recognize we are in the boat with them all. It is not for us to judge their faith. We can judge their actions, however.

[beam me up scottie]

83. psssssssssst! T. Grannie.

You're talking to dead people.

Look at the date on this thread.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

86. I just figured that out before I read your thread

half of them aren't even here anymore! (check out my last post)

I'm laughing so hard I'm crying. Oh well...laughing is good for your health, they say!

I feel like an old drunk or something, weaving in and out of traffic. And I haven't even been drinking! But I think the JW black is calling my name now.

:dunce:

[beam me up scottie]

88. You are one of the funniest people I know, T.

And I know a lot of funny people (in more ways than one).

:evilgrin:

[Autonomy]

3. I guess it's a sin to pray for Phelps to die a horrible death.

Call me a sinner. God will forgive me.

[sexybomber]

19. Funny, I'm actually not praying for that.

I'm praying that the Hell Phelps ends up in seems like heaven compared to what he goes through before he dies.

In the words of Marcellus Wallace from "Pulp Fiction", I'm praying that someone gets medieval on his ass.

[foxeyes2]

31. I guess it's a sin to pray for Phelps to die a horrible death

No it is not a sin. I think that would be considered justified.

[formerrepuke]

4. When lightning or a tornado hits the Westboro Baptist "Church"

(and, they soooo have it coming), I wonder what their rationale for that will be. I hope it happens.

[MissB]

5. And yet He left the French Quarter standing.

:shrug:

[Modem Butterfly]

26. Well there you have it. Jesus loves Mardi Gras

WWJD? He would have shown his tits.

[Beetwasher]

54. Hey! Am I Rubbing Off On You?

Sounds like something I would say! :evilgrin:

[Katidid]

6. These People ARE NOT Christians!

They are HATE Groups!

[Jokerman]

38. They are Christian Hate Groups

Or are you going to try to tell me that such a thing doesn't exist?

[Shell Beau]

53. Well most Christians believe that

"true" Christians wouldn't hate, so therefore, would say that they don't exist b/c those people aren't Christians. You can call yourself a Christian all day long, but it doesn't make you one. Hypocrisy is a huge problem with a lot of these people. They pick Biblical verses that make them seem right, yet they don't take into account the context they were used in the Bible. Then they ignore other verses that would condemn things they enjoy to do. Hypocrisy!!

[CarbonDate]

64. Same diff. n/t

.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

82. If we call Al Queda

"Muslim terrorists" then we must accord these hateful people the same label. They are Christian terrorists, or radical Christians.

[mr blur]

10. Dumb f**ckers, who ever they are. (nt)

[Seeker30]

11. Of course they are hate groups, look at this crap

[KamaAina]

32. Will someone please register www.godhatesfascists.com?

Pleeeeeeeze?

[kentuck]

12. No .. it was God's retribution against deception and evil...

that disguises the truth in worship of false gods. The retribution is against them and their denial of God and the teachings of Jesus...it could be argued...

[Modem Butterfly]

20. Yikes

An indiscriminate smackdown of everyone in a 90,000 square mile area is no way to bring retribution to any single group of people.

[FlaGranny]

13. If that's the case, why did God

kill so many non-homosexual families, children, and old people? God's not very discriminating.

[all.of.me]

14. what's the retribution for narrow-minded, unfeeling, hypocrites?!?!

:popcorn:

[durablend]

40. Hot pitchfork up the you-know what

[FreedomAngel82]

18. I believe it's called Global warming hon

Scientists and Al Gore have been talking about this for a long time and you choose to not believe in it.

[beam me up scottie]

91. I'm glad T.Grannie opened this thread so that I could finally say

good riddance, hon.

:rofl:

[TallahasseeGrannie]

94. I take it Hon

had a pizza delivery?

We had Papa John's tonight. MMMMM.

I have to admit I wondered where the hell that dingbat came from!

[beam me up scottie]

95. Yep.

It was ugly but totally justified.

[SPKrazy]

96. Is Pizza Delivery

a code word for tombstoned?

or did "hon" just like pizza.

I wondered what happened to "hon" as s/he always seemed to chirp in with something about her parents did this, or that.

I don't know why I found that strange.

[beam me up scottie]

98. Yes sir,

that's exactly what it means.

and I never got to say goodbye...

[SPKrazy]

101. I'm So Sad For You...

NOT!

virulent anti semitism?

what's wrong with people?

[beam me up scottie]

104. Not sure if I had the right

poster when I said that.

I deleted it because I couldn't find the posts in question.

[MadAsHellNewYorker]

33. They ate a lot of seafood in NO

why isn't that the reason G-d smotten them? I mean, its clear that g-d hates shrimp...

www.godhatesshrimp.com

[progressoid]

61. Shrimp! Ah ha ha ha.

You made me laugh for the first time in a few days!

[kerry-is-my-prez]

34. No Michael, It's retribution to the red states for voting for Bush.

n/t

[Mob Mama]

35. I think I'll puke.

like at a labor day picnic, my grandma was quick to remind me the disater ended abortions for awhile, too.

Kind of like that idiot after 9/11 who was praising that the empty church across the street from WTC was spared because of God's will. If god's will was to leave an empty church standing and kill 3k innocent people, you can take your version of god.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

84. I think you missed the point there

that church was used as a staging area for rescue operations and eventually for rescuer assistance. That was the "miracle." Not that it was left standing because it was a church. There is an amazing display in the church now of the days the parishioners and others in the community worked 24/7 aiding the men and women who went into that pit...everything from thousands of Chapsticks to foot massages.

[KamaAina]

36. This one hurts most of all

http://headlines.agapepress.org/archive/9/22005b.asp

Rev. Bill Shanks, pastor of New Covenant Fellowship of New Orleans, also sees God's mercy in the aftermath of Katrina -- but in a different way. Shanks says the hurricane has wiped out much of the rampant sin common to the city.

The pastor explains that for years he has warned people that unless Christians in New Orleans took a strong stand against such things as local abortion clinics, the yearly Mardi Gras celebrations, and the annual event known as "Southern Decadence" -- an annual six-day "gay pride" event scheduled to be hosted by the city this week -- God's judgment would be felt.

"New Orleans now is abortion free. New Orleans now is Mardi Gras free. New Orleans now is free of Southern Decadence and the sodomites, the witchcraft workers, false religion -- it's free of all of those things now," Shanks says. "God simply, I believe, in His mercy purged all of that stuff out of there -- and now we're going to start over again."

The New Orleans pastor is adamant. Christians, he says, need to confront sin. "It's time for us to stand up against wickedness so that God won't have to deal with that wickedness," he says.

How very Christian of Bill to gloat over the destruction of his own city -- not just his, but his congregation's too. :sarcasm: If he hates it so much, why does he continue to live there (in its white-flight suburbs, obviously)? New Orleans: Love it or leave it!

Disclaimer: I used to defend abortion clinics in N.O. against Shanks and his ragtag little band of batshit loony anti's. I shoulda retroactively aborted that shithead when I had the chance!

[[e-mail]]

42. these are NOT Christians

sorry
they are NOT
they all need to go to bible school

[beam me up scottie]

44. YES, they are.

Been to their websites?

They probably know the bible better than most christians.

Sorry to break it to you, but christians are just as rotten as the rest of us.

You can't disqualify them because they make you look bad.

[catbert836]

50. Knowing the Bible doesn't qualify you as a Christian.

Apparently these people are very well versed in the Old Testament and Jonathan Edwards' "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" philosophy, but they don't know the Gospels very well at all, or at least they don't think about what Jesus taught too often.
Although i will agree with you that Christians are as rotten as the rest of us.

[beam me up scottie]

51. The poster I was responding to said they needed

to go to bible school, I disagree.

Did you check the links?

They appear to be quite familiar with the text.

These people aren't idiots.

They are experts at interpreting that book and using it to further their revolting agenda.

That's why they're so successful and also so dangerous.

[onager]

45. Who's "picking and choosing?"

Ah, one of my favorite dodges from Xians. Whenever a non-believer points out the blatant inconsistencies and fallacies in the Magic Book, we get reprimanded for "picking and choosing."

Well, here's a newsflash, in case you hadn't noticed: picking and choosing is the ONLY way you can get to that fictional Liberal Jesus you're always yammering about.

Or as I keep asking: which of you good Xians will be the first to follow this brilliant advice from Loving Jesus (or his anonymous stenographer)?

Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.

And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire." (Matt. 18:8–9).

Hmmm. I don't think you can holler too much about that one being taken "out of context." Sounds like a pretty clear call for self-mutilation, to avoid H-E-double-hockey sticks.

IMO, the world would be a much better place if ol' Jesus had guaranteed a Free Pass To Heaven for all Xians who ripped out their tongues.

[salvorhardin]

47. but we godless atheists

have been pointing out passages in the Bible (and it is rife with them) that do justify their behavior. BMUS is right, these people usually know the Bible better than you do. But they stick to a strict, fundamentalist interpretation. You're the one who isn't a true Christian in their eyes. So who decides who is a "true Christian" and who isn't? God? The church? Which church? You? Didn't Jesus and the God of the Bible have something to say about judgment being reserved for the guy upstairs in the funny white?

All we're arguing is that if someone says they're a Christian and follows the words of Christ and God as laid out in the Bible then they're a Christian and anyone claiming that they're not is both hypocritical and against your own self-professed faith. Condemn their actions, but don't try to foist them off onto the rest of us.

[Zhade]

55. If they profess to follow the purported Jesus, yes, they are.

If THEY can say YOU aren't a true Christian, yet you contend that you are, then YOUR claiming they're not doesn't make them any less a true Christian than you.

You don't get to have it both ways. That's called hypocrisy.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

58. If they are not Christians, Stalin was not an atheist either.

I mean, atheists are rational, caring people who vie for the betterment of all people! No true atheist would do what Stalin did! :sarcasm:

[catbert836]

49. There was a girl in my Theology class

who thought the hurricane was God's punishment for being the party central of the South. I find it disgusting that anyone could believe in a god who does stuff like that to his children just because of their partying. It's people like her, and these that your post mentioned that mae me leave Christianity.

[progressoid]

60. Sure!

That's why god did that big flood, remember? Turns out he hates his creations.

[Jim Bob]

65. No, God does not hate his creations

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." John 3:16

God is Love, not hate.

[beam me up scottie]

66. So he just hates the ones who don't believe in him?

That's why we are left to "perish" while you guys all get to have eternal life, right?

Thanks but we already knew that.

God is whatever people want him to be.

[Jim Bob]

67. I do not see it that way at all

From my POV, God loves everybody -- even those who do not believe in Him. He wants everybody to come to Him. However, He wants it to be a conscious choice. He could use His power to force everyone to choose Him, but that would be meaningless. If we were all automatons with no free will, God would be alone in the universe. Instead, He created each of us with the free will to either choose Him or not. He is giving each of us the opportunity. All we have to do is accept Christ's sacrifice on our behalf. That is God's plan of salvation for each of us, as revealed in the Bible.

God may hate sin, but not sinners. Just as a parent does not hate her misbehaving child. She may be appalled at the child's behavior, but she still loves the child with all her heart. That is my understanding of God.

[beam me up scottie]

68. So, I'm still going to perish, then ?

Just for not believing in him?

[Jim Bob]

69. Only if you CHOOSE to reject God's plan of salvation for you.

You know, I am just describing my beliefs. On one level, it is probably true that Muslims believe Christians and Jews are doomed, Christians believe Muslims and Jews are doomed, and Jews believe Muslims and Christians are doomed. Then you have the atheists, who believe everybody is doomed.

Just because there are many religions does not mean that they are all equally correct. In fact, they cannot all be correct, since they are mutually exclusive.

I am describing my belief, as a Christian who believes that the Bible is the Word of God. Obviously, non-Christians will have a different point of view, based on their own beliefs.

According to the Bible, there is only one way to God: "I am the way and the truth and the life; no one comes to the Father except through me." - Jesus Christ

Assuming that it is true that God sacrificed His only Son on the cross to pay for your sins (and mine), why should God allow you or me into His house if we don't accept this incredible gift?

Doesn't God have the right to insist that if we want eternal life, we follow His plan of salvation, which He has laid out so clearly, and for which He paid so dearly?

Clearly, if the Bible is true, then there is only one way to the Father, and that is through the Son. Each of us has a choice to either accept or reject this way. I am accepting it. And I hope that you and everybody else does, too. But since God gave people free will, we each have the ability to reject God's Wod and God's plan. But why would anyone want to do that?

The above is just my perspective. I mean no disrespect to anyone who believes otherwise.

[beam me up scottie]

70. I understand.

My point was that fred phelps' god is what he wants him to be.
And yours is what you want him to be.

Phelps' god is not about love even though yours may be.

You can't blame us for seeing the difference.

[Jim Bob]

71. Fred Phelps literally brings tears to my eyes.

I followed the link to his site, and I was so appalled and saddened. I couldn't believe what I was seeing.

He seems to be insane. He exhibits none of the traits of Christ. We are all known by our fruits -- our actions. His actions appear to be intentionally causing pain and suffering of others for his own gratification.

I am sad for him, but sadder for the misguided people in his congregation. They are truly being led astray. I am also sorry for God, to see His Name perverted and twisted into an instrument of hate.

[beam me up scottie]

72. His people were here this summer,

protesting at the funeral of a soldier killed in Iraq.

You are right, he is quite insane, and dangerous because he knows how to manipulate his followers.

I have nothing but contempt for him or his rabid sheep.

The only ones I pity are the children who are being brought up on such hate.

[Jim Bob]

73. Thinking of the children

makes me sick. They may be warped for life by being brought up like this.

As a church-goer myself, it is hard for me to imagine how Phelps has a congregation. What people do you know who would follow such a person? I don't know anyone who I could possibly imagine going along with a ministry that seems to be solely focused on hatred of gays and hatred of America.

This church is by their own description an anti-American organization, and I would hope that anti-terrorism resources are being deployed to keep an eye on them. It is not inconceivable to anticipate that they will one day resort to terrorist violence against America or Americans.

[beam me up scottie]

74. Well, I live in a state full of people that are more afraid of two guys

kissing than not having health care, living in poverty and having their kids sent to Iraq to die for a lie.

I know lots of people who willingly follow leaders that preach hatred.
I work with some of the worst bigots I've ever known, and they're all christian.
One of them (the worst one) is even "born again".

[Jim Bob]

75. Sorry to hear that.

It sounds like those Christians that you work with are giving Christians a bad name. However, please do not judge Christ by those Christians. Christ never did anything wrong.

Please keep an open mind about Christians, too. You cannot draw conclusions about Christians as a group based on the bigoted actions of a few. Most Christians I know are very good people.

[beam me up scottie]

76. Well, most of my friends and some of my family are christians, so I don't

have anything against them.

I just think they're good people because they're good people, not because of their religion.

Same thing goes for bad people, it's not just their religion that makes them bad, but it does provide an awfully powerful vehicle for them to use, and use it, they have.

I don't know any atheists that judge christians based on just their religion.

Many of us have a real problem with how some of them use it.

[saltpoint]

110. That God sounds like a control freak to me.

No. I do not believe "God" has the right to make absolute fiery commands and expect widely diverse human beings to march lockstep to the beat.

I don't believe that at all. I can't think of anything more ungodlike, in fact.

You cite your personal belief and use it as a shield to excuse absolute authority.

Mohammed Atta might have held the same position. It doesn't give your God pole position over anyone else's God, or non-God either, anymore than it gives Mohammed Atta the right to fly commercial jets into skyscrapers.

[Darranar]

56. How "loving." What great care and respect for the "least of these"...

Disgusting. Utterly disgusting.

[saltpoint]

77. So let's say for the sake of argument that there might be some

lesbian and gay people in Grey Bull, Wyoming. There may be, there may not be, who knows, but let's say for just now that there are.

Let's say that they're sexually active.

Let's say that the psychotic talk of these evangelicalsat Repent America is right, and that catastrophic weather events are divine wrath provoked by same-sex relationships and activity.

By that gauge, shouldn't gay people in Grey Bull, Wyoming be killed by avalanches or earthquakes or something? Rockslides? Pelted by giant hailstones? Possibly attacked and killed by pumas? You name it -- if these evangelists are right, then how is it that only lesbian and gay people along the Gulf Coast were singled out?

Maybe it's a quantification case. You know -- if you have ___ partners then there's no weather event to punish you. But if you exceed ____ partners, then watch out. But if libido is more or less the same in Wyoming as it is in the French Quarter, that theory doesn't seem to work very well.

Gee. If I didn't know any better, I'd have to conclude that the Repent America evangelists are hatemongering assholes.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

85. Oh....I am so humiliated

Here I thought I was reading a nice, new thread and happily adding my blather to it and I check the date and the freaking thing is from September, 2005.

Who the heck kicked this thing up? Or is my beloved G-4 once again throwing old dates out into the cybersphere and bringing me ancient threads?

Oh.....DU embarrassment. The worst kind.

I may never show my face here again.

But I'm still a really nice Christian lady, you know???

[beam me up scottie]

87. I tried to warn you...

but you shouldn't be humiliated, you should be proud!

You were all over this thread, just the way a T.Rex Grannie (with or without the walker) should be!

[TallahasseeGrannie]

89. Thanks

I am still laughing. I see now that the last poster kicked it up. Wow, he/she must have been archive diving. I thought it was a long thread to come up so suddenly. I was thinking of going back and deleting them all, but they say humility is good for you so I'll leave them up for a good laugh.

[beam me up scottie]

92. No, you did good.

See my post #91.

[varkam]

90. I was wondering who was keeping this thread alive...

Oh Grannie, you make me smile :)

[TallahasseeGrannie]

93. Well, it's the best laugh I've had

all day. I was feeling so "in the zone" too.

sigh.

[varkam]

106. Without a doubt.

I was reading your posts and it definitely seemed like you were on top of things. But I wouldn't call it a waste...I mean I for one got scared reading them. I was like "Oh man! TG gettin' ready to lay the smack down!".

B-)

[saltpoint]

107. Ah, but TG, these questions are timeless! No kiddin'. What's a

handful of measly months when we're all right smackdab in the middle of infinity?

Quite honestly, we have to keep this "God's retribution" talk in check. As late as last month one of the very most nut-case fundie members of my extended family tree was saying that New Orleans "got it from God about all that sinning."

I didn't win many points at my table by suggesting to him that he was full of shit.

Even if he was.

[NMMNG]

108. What about the dozens of tornadoes that occur in Kansas every year?

What "sin" is God avenging there?

[saltpoint]

109. Sin lurks behind every silo in Kansas, brothers and sisters!

The Lord in his wisdom will visit twisters upon the wicked!

[rasputin1952]

112. Hmmm...How about the sin of hypocrisy?

:D

I'm in NE, and we get the twisters as well....God must really hate corn and soy beans because thaose take the brunt of the storms....