9/11 was what turned me off from organized religion forever,

[Odin2005]

I was 15 at the time and my mind will associate organized religion with fanatics flying planes into buildings for the rest of my life. It convinced me that organized religion was nothing but a force for evil in the world, a source of dogmatism and hate.

[Ohio Joe]

1. Interesting

I came to the realization I was an atheist in my junior year of high school when I had to start attending a catholic school. Previous to that I had had very little to do with religion but as I had to learn about it... It just made no sense to me.

[Common Sense Party]

2. So because one extreme, fanatical version of one religion had members

willing to commit an atrocity, you naturally extrapolated that to view ALL religions as equally reprehensible?

Interesting.

[Deep13]

9. They were fanatical in their application, not in their theology.

Anyway, fanatical adherents of religion are the natural outgrowth of religion generally. Tacit acceptance of the irrational principals and false promises of religion provide a fertile environment for extremism to prosper. After all, extremism is simply adherence to the same ideas help by the mainstream, but taken to their logical conclusion.

[cleanhippie]

35. To be honest, ALL major religions have committed atrocities on the same scale.

Just at different times. ALL are equally guilty of this.












And cue the "atheists have killed....." in 3...2...1...

[hlthe2b]

3. Funny... though I am agnostic...

It was this picture (Father Mychal Judge) and his story of on-hands ministry as a Franciscan Catholic Priest prior and during the response on 911 that had me rethinking at least some of my previous cynicism. He was the embodiment of what we would like to think TRUE Christianity might mean.

Even those who hold the darkest view of Catholicism and religion in general should be at least slightly moved by his euology ('The Happiest Man on Earth,' the Eulogy for Father Mychal Judge: On 9/11, the beloved New York priest was one of the first to die. At his funeral, his friend offered these inspiring words. http://www.beliefnet.com/Holistic-Living/2006/09/The-Happiest-Man-On-Earth-The-Eulogy-For-Father-Mychal-Judge.aspx?p=2 ).

[AlecBGreen]

8. Thank you for sharing, that was beautiful

nt

[Dorian Gray]

31. His death was truly sad

and the love from all the fireman for this priest, who he ministered to, was beautiful.

[bluestateguy]

4. I understand how you feel

The Muslims fanatics who felt they were doing God's work, and the Christian conservatives who so eagerly wanted a Holy War with Islam so as to hasten the rapture.

But I don't let them all get to me. In the end it is our personal relationship with God (if you are a believer) that is far more important than any organized religion we may nominally belong to.

[Ninjaneer]

5. For me, it was when my family and some friends tried to use logic to prove to me god existed.

Prior to that, all my life, god and logic/reason existed in two different universes in my mind. As soon as god entered the space of reason and logic, he got destroyed. Have never looked back since, except to wonder WHY I did not realize sooner that religion was not exempt from logic. Its funny, people talk about finding peace with god. After that celestial dictator left my life, come hell or high water (pni) I always have a sense of peace greater than anything I felt with religion. No one is out to get me. There's no reason to feel guilty all the time. Its just life.

Thanks for posting.

[chollybocker]

6. 9/11 was but one in a long line of tragic events caused by religion.

Without religion, many more people would die of natural death.

[Festivito]

7. Just wait until you discover the love of money. Talk about a desire invoking hate and violence.

Money, also, is organized and we use it, it can be said, religiously, as when buying things and mindlessly pulling out a credit card.

[darkstar3]

10. "it can be said, religiously"

Only if you like misusing the English language.

[Festivito]

11. Yes, it can be said, and, understood.

As people repeat actions, they reconnect to their belief in something in which they have faith -- such as money being able to buy what they need or want.

[darkstar3]

12. And how does what you say here in any way mean "religiously"

Here's wordnet's version:

S: (adv) religiously, sacredly (by religion) "religiously inspired art"
S: (adv) scrupulously, conscientiously, religiously (with extreme conscientiousness) "he came religiously every morning at 8 o'clock"

http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=religiously

How does your statement in any way translate to either one of the definitions listed here?

I get very tired of people attempting to categorize regular human behavior as worshipful or religious. There's simply no there, there. Money, science, humanity...these things do not serve as gods, god-substitutes, idols, or objects of worship. Can I say it any clearer than that?

[Festivito]

13. Money does not serve as an object of worship? Really? /nt

[darkstar3]

14. Yeah. Really.

Worship of money is an incorrect term to apply to greed.

[Festivito]

15. Worship of money is a phrase and greed is a term describing a worship of money. /nt

[darkstar3]

16. I'm sorry, do greedy people personify money?

Do they pray to it? Do they seek its approval? Do they teach their children to modify and restrict their behavior in order to do right by the lord or law of money?

Of course not.

[Festivito]

17. The resulting actions are very similar. (OF COURSE -- SO)

Spacious marble edifices rise in city centers called banks.

Children are taught what they can and cannot afford.

People ask the bank to intercede when they are in trouble.

And, they sit and wait concentrating upon a good outcome, often with their hands clenched together.

Some money-managing groups are personified by their CEOs or past leaders.

[Ninjaneer]

19. The central pillars of any religion is

1. faith and 2. worship of a superhuman controlling power.

Greed/love of money requires/satisfies neither. Even if the examples you provide weren't big stretches, you still wouldn't be satisfying requirements one and two. Those are the only ones that matter if you want to apply the word "religiously" in a correct manner.

Even putting all that aside for a moment, by your definition, countless acts could be attributed the modifier "religiously". Is buying my girlfriend gifts a religious act? I mean I'm "making a sacrifice in her honor so that she may grace me with her good will". Anyone can make vaguely worded parallels, they don't necessarily prove anything.

[Festivito]

26. Any and all? From where does that rule arise?

Let alone, 1., yes, people do have faith in money. And, it is a problem for them.

And, the Fed at time can seem a superhuman controlling problem -- for its power.

I imagine your girlfriend hopes you will religiously remember to buy her gifts. How you deem the experience is, well, for you, yourself.

[Ninjaneer]

61. I used the dictionary definition of religion, so thats where that "rule" arose.

1. No they do not, see definition of faith (and post #58, #62).
2. "can seem a superhuman controlling..." thanks for your opinion, but it doesn't further your argument any.
3. You imagine wrong what my girlfriend hopes.

[darkstar3]

29. Only in a twisted mind.

[Festivito]

30. Oh, my. Is that simply ad hominem. Shameless. Tsk tsk tsk.

But, I guess that is the best you could do.

[darkstar3]

33. Oh now that's precious.

You grasp at straws like a man falling off a cliff, and then chide others for laughing at your inanity. I guess that's the best you could do...
:rofl:

[Festivito]

38. Talking down and laughing at people you consider beneath you. Now, that's precious.

I'd bet you could go lower.

[darkstar3]

39. Right,

because I've been the condescending one in this subthread.

I laugh at people who earn it, and you earned it well with your extreme stretching of the premise of worship, not to mention your stretching of the idea of greed. If you think my laughter means that I consider you to be beneath me, then I think that says more about you then it does about me.

[Festivito]

41. Had I known your ability to use the word extreme, I might had capitulated long ago.

NOT!

If one cannot argue a point, repeat it? What, catapult the propaganda?

[darkstar3]

44. You tell me.

;)

[Festivito]

46. Did. /nt

[darkstar3]

48. Bwaaack.

;)

[Festivito]

50. Back!

;-)

[darkstar3]

51. It's funny when you start to think the reflection is real.

Or maybe it's sad...

No, wait, it's funny 'cause it's sad.

[Festivito]

53. Feeling reflective? Feeling funny? /nt

[Lydia Leftcoast]

67. Many children and youth are very definitely taught that money and

making more and more money are the most important things in life.

This was a major frustration when I taught on the college level. Students whose families could afford to send them on study abroad would refuse to do so, because, and I quote: "If this delays your graduation, you'll lose a year's worth of lifetime income." One such student's parents sent her on a Hilton-to-Hilton three-week tour of Japan, China, Thailand, and India instead of having her go overseas (and she would have been an excellent candidate). From talking to the parents, I inferred that they had her career planned out for her (investment banking) and didn't want her doing anything that might make her stop and think about something beside money.

In my years of teaching, I had 3 or 4 students each year whose parents had told them what they had to major in and what their future careers would be, no matter what the students' actual abilities and interests were.

[trotsky]

18. Some people simply cannot comprehend of a person...

who DOESN'T "worship" *something*. The "god-shaped hole" and all that nonsense. You'll have to cut them some slack, because you see, they are quite convinced they can read everyone else's mind and know better than they do what they really believe.

[Ninjaneer]

21. You really believing what you just said is damning to my argument.

Therefore you must not really believe what you just said.

Logic is the shiz.

[trotsky]

22. You missed a step in your proof.

1. You really believing what you just said is damning to my argument.
2. I cannot be wrong because I know I believe in the right god.
3. Therefore you must not really believe what you just said.

Ah, complete now.

[Ninjaneer]

23. You're just saying that.

I know you don't really believe 2 belongs there.

On edit: I can see the appeal here. Its like being Neo. :o

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ninjaneer]

20. Definition of faith:

"strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof."
-OxfordDictionaries.com

People don't need to have "faith" in money. Its "power" to get them the things they want is proven empirically every single day. Studies done into the "power" of prayer have proven only that statistically praying is as effective as doing nothing at all.

[Festivito]

27. Funny, your source says: "complete trust or confidence in someone or something"

And money is something.

Oh, and, money's power to fail to get things wanted is also proven every day as well. Such is the sad case of faith in the wrong things.

[darkstar3]

34. Show me just one example of someone putting their "complete trust in" money.

Just one. You ought to be able to manage that if you're so convinced that money can be worshipped.

[Festivito]

40. How about Ayn Rand's murderous hero.

If not most of the Republican party.

[darkstar3]

43. So you give me fiction and assumption?

[Festivito]

45. Um, Ayn Rand was real and so was William Edward Hickman.

Rand wrote fiction. She was not fiction.

Hickman killed, dismembered, sewed the eyes open of a little girl to get ransom money. He was real, not fiction, so was the little girl, real, not fiction. And, Rand admired his commitment to doing whatever it takes to get what he wanted.

Sick minds, in need of so much help they did not get.

[darkstar3]

47. And here I thought you meant one of her characters.

You still haven't shown how Hickman put his "complete trust in" money. So he killed for it. So what? Do you believe that anything that people have killed for is an object of worship? Your pantheon must be nearly unmanageable.

[Festivito]

52. Replete, but not quite complete for ya? /nt

[darkstar3]

54. There's another word you misused.

Replete? I think not.

Still waiting for you to show me someone who puts their "complete trust in" money.

[Festivito]

55. He is replete with trust in money. How is that a misuse of replete?

Not quite complete -- by you.

[darkstar3]

56. You haven't shown that either.

Not in the slightest. You need more than the fact that he killed for money.

[Festivito]

57. Perhaps you'll just claim it's not enough no matter what or how much you're given. /nt

[darkstar3]

58. Doubtful, but we won't know until you give at least something.

I asked you to show me just one person who puts their "complete trust in" money. Your attempt at example is severely lacking, so I asked you to provide more information about how your chosen person put their "complete trust in" money. All you did at that point was bullshit.

You can provide another person as an example, or you can explain how your chosen person serves as an example, but if you refuse to do either don't bother telling me it's because I'll just claim it isn't enough. If you can't provide examples to support your argument, it doesn't automatically mean that your opposition is impossible to please. The simpler explanation is that your argument is faulty.

[Festivito]

59. How does the example not show complete trust in money?

Why is it lacking?
Why is that lack severe?

Can you give example of a human who completely trusts in something, or do you consider the dictionary wrong in pointing to such a person?

[darkstar3]

60. Now you're asking me to prove you wrong, in so many words.

How does the example show "complete trust in" money? I don't see it at all. I don't even see "trust in" money from your example, let alone "complete trust in" money. Can you explain in any way how it does? I'd be happy to read the explanation if you were able to elaborate. So far, all I see is you pointing at someone as an example without any clear reason why.

[Festivito]

64. Well, that's what you've been doing all along, and here you're only repeating yourself avoiding...

... an approach that would possibly show you that the meaning of complete is contextual, which would make your prior assertions fall apart.

[darkstar3]

65. So, no reason why, then. Fine.

[Festivito]

66. None, that you will be able to see I guess. /nt

[Ninjaneer]

62. You will never be able to prove "complete trust" in an object like money.

Absolutes like "complete trust" are reserved for religion and religious things, especially its central figure, god. That is precisely the reason he/she is considered god. They posess a degree of infallibility that is outside the realm of reality.

The dictionary is not wrong in pointing to a person who has complete trust in something. However that something has divine connections to lend it that needed degree of infallibility.

No matter how you slice it, you come back to the crux of the definition of faith - believing/trusting without proof. Money gives proof of its power every single day. Thus, faith is not required for money.

[Festivito]

63. Not to someone who cannot even work with a dictionary. /nt

[Ninjaneer]

68. 'Kay = ) eom.

[Goblinmonger]

42. As a metaphor, perhaps.

Not denotatively.

[Festivito]

49. I'd say it denotes as much as it connotes, but, so? /nt

[Jim__]

24. That's quite the illogical leap.

One incident involving one religion gets generalized to all organized religion for all time.

[trotsky]

32. MLK!

Oh wait, that's OK to generalize, right?

[cleanhippie]

36. Uh, Jim? I hate to break it to you, but ALL religions have committed similar atrocities.

Christians seem to be the worst, actually.

[darkstar3]

37. One atrocity removes the veneer of piety,

and once the veneer is gone, the history of atrocity shines through.

And of course it works both ways. If Hitler had saved 1,000 puppies from a puppy mill or an oncoming train while spearheading the Holocaust, the question "what about the good things Hitler did?" would be something other than troll-bait.

[Iggo]

25. 2nd grade, catholic school, people lying who I thought shouldn't've been lying.

And it was all downhill from there.