Was Mary pregnant with Jesus before she married Joseph?

[Eric J in MN]

That's what Mike Malloy said tonight.

[wolfgirl]

1. Yup!

[Rowdyboy]

2. Thats pretty much what my people believe....

Be kinda hard to have a virgin birth any other way!

[Kathy in Cambridge]

3. The slut!

:wow:

Just kidding!

Indignant Christian: How DARE you imply that she had pre-marital sex! DU is anti-Christian!

[Rowdyboy]

4. Pre-marital sex does not make one a slut!

You judgemental, hypocritical, moralistic, stereotyping Bay Stater!

Also just kidding!

[Kathy in Cambridge]

13. Yes, my Puritan forebearers would have hanged her for that!

or at least broken her on the wheel!

[imenja]

53. to see such language used to describe Mary is hurtful

What I'd like to do is tell you that seeing such words used to describe a woman so important in my religion wounds me, causes pain. It's for you to decide if that matters to you.

[signmike]

5. Those randy angels!

Slipped one in right around poor old Joe.

[LiberalFighter]

6. Joseph was from the line of David therefore Jesus was too

[RawMaterials]

9. are you implying imbred??? other wise its just

saving a whore and becomeing her girlfreind.

[chicagiana]

31. Well here is the logical paradox ...

Because Jesus was supposedly conceived by the holy spirit ... BUT ... they go through a pretty detailed pedigree showing that Jesus was descended from David.

So which is it. Is Jesus the son of god, or the heir to David???

My guess is that this is the synthesis of two different traditions. The "god man" imagery is laid over a historical Jesus to make him compatible with the Sun-Cult.

[Stunster]

50. The genealogy stuff

isn't meant to trace a biological line, but to establish legal relationships for the purposes of inheritance, etc. Jesus was the legal son of Joseph, and if Joseph descended from David, then the evangelist is trying to suggest that Jesus inherits royal authority or the Davidic kingship of Israel.

I wouldn't call that a logical paradox. Plenty of people have biological parents different from their legal parents.

[elehhhhna]

37. Have you read "King Jesus" by Robert Graves?

He says Mary was a Macabee, satisfying any matrilineal society's idea of good breeding, and that JC was the sonof (IIRC) Antipater--Herod's son--and needed to be anonymous about his patronage considering Herod killed all his heirs...

Graves theorizes that JC was qualified to become King and that it was a poltically-motivated movement...

Your thoughts? I'd like some more enlightend minds than mine to weigh in.

[LiberalFighter]

42. Was it necessary to remain anonymous considering that Herod was long dead?

A bit difficult for the heir thing to make any difference with him dead.

Never heard of JC being a grandson of Herod.

[Roaming]

56. Mary was also from the line of David--the Bible tracks the

family history through both sides.

[Raster]

7. It wasn't virgin birth. That's another "borrowed" bit surrounding the

Jesus Christmas story. In fact most of the Christmas story is borrowed and embelished.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

34. So you were there?

Eyewitness account?

[Kathy in Cambridge]

41. I'm assuming you believe in the Creation Myth as well?

The tooth fairy? the Easter Bunny?

[Stunster]

49. What about the Big Bang?

Compared to that, making a virgin conceive a child would be easy.

[Raster]

45. No eye witnesses. Lots of gossip though.

[Skittles]

47. were you there?

eyewitness account?

[Somawas]

8. Sure she was

First, as I remember it Mary is described as Joseph's "espoused" wife-or woman he was engaged to, at the time Jesus was born.

Also, she was over at her cousin Elizabeth's when Gabriel the Archangel told her that she would have the son of God. It's where those beautiful "Magnificat"s come from.

[Eric J in MN]

10. What is a Magnificat? nt

nt

[bobbieinok]

14. see this link

http://www.wf-f.org/Magnifi.html

About the Magnificat

The Magnificat , also called the Canticle of Mary, is recorded in the Gospel of Luke (1:46-55). It is the Virgin Mary's joyous prayer in response to the Angel Gabriel's annunciation to her that she will become the mother of the Son of God. This great hymn forms part of the Church's prayer in the Divine Office (Liturgy of the Hours). When it is recited as part of the Divine Office, it is followed by the Gloria Patri ("Glory be"). The traditional sung Magnificat is Latin plainchant. One of the hymn's most glorious musical renditions is the version of the Magnificat by J.S. Bach.

....
The Magnificat appears below both in English and in Latin.


My soul magnifies the Lord,
And my spirit rejoices in God my Savior.
For He has regarded the low estate of His handmaiden,
For behold, henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
For He who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is His name. And His mercy is on those who fear Him from generation to generation.
He has shown strength with His arm:
He has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.
He has put down the mighty from their thrones,
and exalted those of low degree.
He has filled the hungry with good things;
and the rich He has sent empty away.
He has helped His servant Israel, in remembrance of His mercy;
As He spoke to our fathers, to Abraham and to His posterity forever.

Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit.
As it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen
Scripture text: Revised Standard Version - Catholic Edition


NOTE: interesting words for Christmas 2004 in the USA

He has shown strength with His arm:
He has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.
He has put down the mighty from their thrones,
and exalted those of low degree.
He has filled the hungry with good things;
and the rich He has sent empty away.

[Dear Maggie]

17. Thanks - Have you heard the Christmas story of 2 babies?

www.valdezlink.com/two_babies.htm

[bobbieinok]

19. thanks ...what a story!

[Dear Maggie]

44. One of the 7 wonders

... feeling ... Do you know the other 6?

This is one



www.valdezlink.com/7wonders.htm
turn the music on ...

[Lady Sonelle]

24. Sorry, but Projectile Vomiting Is Bad For My Tummy

Even if it *is* good for My figure...

Lady Sonelle

[DemBones DemBones]

22. No, she wasn't at Elizabeth's when Gabriel appeared to her.

She visited Elizabeth later.

[LostinVA]

35. Elizabeth Greeted Her with

"Hail Mary, full of grace." She knew Mary was pregnant then. Oh god, I hope I'm remembering this right -- I taught CCD for several years before becoming a heathen...

[Lydia Leftcoast]

23. No, she goes to Elizabeth's after receiving the announcement

from the angel.

The angel tells her that her cousin Elizabeth, who was thought to be unable to have children, is pregnant. (That child grows up to be John the Baptist.)

[sonicx]

11. how did all of mankind come from Adam and Eve alone?

:shrug:

[El Supremo]

12. DNA research has concluded that...

all mankind must be descended from a single Eve. Don't ask me how long ago or references.

[TO Kid]

15. That's been debunked

IIRC the Eve theory was based on some kind of genetic marker that was thought to be passed only by the mother. Turned out not to be the case, but the story came out so long ago I forgot the details. At any rate, after news of the debunking came out there hasn't been too much said about it.

[LiberalFighter]

43. Because there were other Adam and Eve's?

[Obviousman]

16. Yep

But idiots like William Donohue will be reluctant to speak of that. That's why I'm on a google bomb campaign.
William Donohue

[DemBones DemBones]

27. WIlliam Donohue is conservative but since he's Catholic, I'll guarantee

that he knows this.

The Gospel reading at last Sunday's Mass (Matthew 1:18-24) was about this very thing, in case he'd somehow managed to miss it all these years.

Mary conceived by the Holy Spirit, after giving her consent to bear God's Son -- God gave her a choice in this matter. After realizing she was pregnant, Joseph thought about divorcing her quietly, but an angel appeared to him in a dream and explained the situation.

[Radio_Lady]

18. Who the f*ck cares? n/t

[yardwork]

20. Early Christians did not believe this

The idea that Mary was a Virgin when she became pregnant with Jesus - the Immaculate Conception- came into the Christian canon sometime after 1,000 AD. It was not a part of the original story of Jesus's life.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

21. Not quite:

First of all, the Immaculate Conception is not about Jesus. A lot of people make this mistake. It's a uniquely Roman Catholic doctrine that says that Mary was born without sin. The doctrine that Jesus did not have a human father is called the Virgin Birth.

It's in the Gospel of Luke, which was written, well, I don't know the exact date, but it was before 300 AD.

When the angel Gabriel tells her that she will give birth to Jesus, she asks how this can happen, because she's a virgin.

It's possible that the Virgin Birth was not declared an official doctrine until 1,000 AD, but the idea was certainly around.

[bobbieinok]

26. and isn't there a RCatholic belief that Mary ascended bodily into

Heaven???

[Lydia Leftcoast]

28. Yes, that's the Assumption

It was not made official doctrine until the late nineteenth century.

[DemBones DemBones]

30. Yes, Mary was assumed into Heaven, rather than ascending to Heaven

under her own power, as Jesus did. The Doctrine of the Assumption was formalized in 1950 but belief in Mary's Assumption had existed for centuries; IIRC, it goes back to the 3rd century or earlier.

[RUDUing2]

40. more info on Mary via the early church:

http://mb-soft.com/believe/txo/mary.htm
As early as the 2nd century, Christians venerated Mary by calling her Mother of God, a title that primarily stresses the divinity of Jesus. During the controversies of the 4th century concerning the divine and human natures of Jesus, the Greek title theotókos (Mother of God) came to be used for Mary in devotional and theological writing. Nestorius, patriarch of Constantinople (present-day Ýstanbul), contested this usage, insisting that Mary was mother of Christ, not of God. In 431, the Council of Ephesus condemned Nestorianism and solemnly affirmed that Mary is to be called theotókos, a title that has been used since that time in the Orthodox and Roman Catholic churches.
Closely related to the title Mother of God is the title Virgin Mary, affirming the virginal conception of Jesus (Luke 1:35). Initially, this title stressed the belief that God, not Joseph, was the true father of Jesus. In the Marian devotion that developed in the East in the 4th century, Mary was venerated not only in the conception but also in the birth of Jesus. This conviction was expressed clearly in the 4th century, baptismal creeds of Cyprus, Syria, Palestine, and Armenia. The title used was aieiparthenos (ever-virgin), and by the middle of the 7th century the understanding of the title came to include the conviction that Mary remained a virgin for the whole of her life. The passages in the New Testament referring to the brothers of Jesus (for instance, Mark 6:3, which also mentions sisters; see 1 Corinthians 9:5; Galatians 1:19) have been accordingly explained as references to relatives of Jesus or to children of Joseph by a previous marriage, although there is no historical evidence for this interpretation.

In the 2nd and 3rd centuries, various Christian writers began to express the belief that, because of her intimate union with God through the Holy Spirit in the conception of Jesus (Luke 1:35), Mary was completely free from any taint of sin. In 680 a Roman Council spoke of her as the "blessed, immaculate ever-virgin."

In both the Eastern and Western churches, feast days in honor of the events of Mary's life came into existence between the 4th and 7th centuries. They celebrate her miraculous conception and her birth, narrated in the apocryphal "Infancy Gospel" of James (September 8); the Annunciation (March 25); her purification in the Temple (February 2); and her death (called the Dormition in the Eastern church) and bodily Assumption into heaven (August 15; see Assumption of the Virgin).

[Must_B_Free]

32. the idea of perfection came from interaction witht he Greeks

the christians were getting crushed in debates with the greeks so they had to work in philosophical forms to reinforce the religions story and make it more plausible. That's where the concepts like "God as perfection" came from.

The God of the old testament acts like some asshole with a magic wand.

[liberalhistorian]

55. Umm........

I'm sorry, not to be rude or anything, but that's just not true. I'm not sure where you would have gotten that. One of the major tenets that Christian doctrine is built on is that Mary was pregnant via Immaculate Conception and that she was pregnant BEFORE she was married to Joseph.

Read the gospel accounts, especially Mark. These were written not too long after Christ's crucifiction, long before the date you give, 1000 A.D., as acceptance by the church of this doctrine. There are many other reasons why your post is incorrect, but you get the picture. I'm a long-time Christian and I have a history degree, so I do have some idea of what I'm talking about.

[mitchum]

25. I bet Joseph was taken by every fast-talker from Galilee to Ishna...

"You see Joe, it's magic olive oil"
"I'm telling you, this lamb's fleece can be spun into gold next year"

I'm just saying...

[DemBones DemBones]

29. Joseph was thinking of divorcing Mary quietly but an angel

appeared to him in a dream and told him that Mary was carrying the Son of God and was still a virgin. An angel also appeared in Joseph's dreams when they were about to leave Bethlehem, and advised him to take Mary and Jesus into Egypt for a time since Herod had his men out killing all little Jewish boys up to the age of two years.

[Gin]

33. The Immaculate Conception is a spiritual-internal process. We-ourselves

fertilize the "Christ" seed that is within each and every one of us, thereby experiencing the Immaculate conception.

Men can experience the Immaculate conception too. Think about it guys. Be the first on your block to conceive.

[LostinVA]

36. They Weren't Married Yet

They were betrothed -- she was promised to him as his de facto wife, but they had not yet been married. He could have broken the betrothal at any moment under Hebrew Law.

Interesting aside: some theologians make the claim that Mary was not married, and Jesus was illegitimate, due to Jesus being referred to as the Son of Mary, and for the way in which he addresses her.

[ghostsofgiants]

38. Since Mary and God never got hitched, that makes Jesus a bastard, yeah?

Just curious.

[RUDUing2]

39. yes, she was.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

46. Both the Bible and Qur'an imply this

in Maryam they talk about how her family was in shock about Mary's pregnancy and bringing back the infant Jesus to show them. It took Jesus speaking to the relatives, telling them that He was a prophet, to make them understand what had happened. (Yes, the Qur'an talked of the angel visiting Mary, but says she became pregnant because God said "Be!" and it was. The Unity sura says God begets not nor is begotten, so the conception of Jesus was done in the way mentioned).

[catbert836]

48. According to the Bible, yes.

Mary was already betrothed to Joseph, but he sought to quietly break off their engagement when he learned she was pregnant, because in that culture it was the ultimate shame to marry someone who wasn't a virgin. Women, not men who had premaritial sex were usually stoned to death. But the angel appeared and told Joseph to marry her.

[gorbal]

51. I wonder sometimes

I wonder sometimes if the woman jesus protected from stoning was not his own mother.

You can read some of the dead sea scrolls and other gnostic writings here-

http://www.gnosis.org/library.html

[Mabeline]

52. The Bible says Joseph and Mary were 'espoused' and

Mary was found with child, if this happened before they married I cannot say for sure, but I believe she was. God then sent and angel to tell Joseph, who was thinking of putting her away, who Mary carried.

[frankly_fedup2]

54. I believe she did not marry Joseph until after she had Jesus.

Common sense why really. If she had been married, she would not have been a virgin.

Of course, there are those that say Mary was a loose woman who was preggers and came up with this virgin birth theory (very inventive I must say). She had to convince Joseph of this or he would never have married her unless she was a virgin.

To each his own I suppose.

Did you know now that if you are not a virgin, you can get a plastic surgeon to put your hymen back and become a virgin (physiologically that is) again?

I hear a lot of Muslim women are getting this procedure once they have been matched for marriage. If it were found out they were not virgins, I think the father is allowed to kill her for disgracing the family.

Also, did you see on one of the news shows (cannot remember) where a young woman's brother was found having sex with a woman from another tribe. So the tribal leaders had his sister brought to them, and so the family would no longer be disgraced, all this woman's men in her family were allowed to rape his sister publicly. It had to be a horrible thing for her to go through. Anyway, somehow she got help (after the event), and the four men (who were related to the woman who was having sex with the young woman's brother on a consensual basis), were charged with rape, sodomy, among other things.

That culture is still in the 600's. That is why they will never understand us nor will we them. They believe progress is evil, sinful. Capitalism is all about inventions, entrepreneurs, progress.