If a person tells me my religion is WRONG

[burythehatchet]

I will NOT respect that person's beliefs. My religion preaches many paths to knowing God. When a person, of any faith, tells me that I'm wrong in my beliefs, I do not feel any obligation to respect their faith as that person chooses to practice it. For example, I have a deep love for the writings contained in the Beatitudes, though I am not Christian. But if a self-proclaimed Christian tells me that I'm going to hell because I don't ascribe to a specific dogma, well that person's opinion no longer matters to me. And their "faith", in my opinion is nothing more than cultish behavior.

[tx_dem41]

1. What if an Atheist tells you that your religion (or belief system) is..

wrong? Belittles it by calling it mythology? Is it just as wrong?

Let me add that I am an Atheist, but that is my personal choice and I don't judge others on their choice of belief system.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

5. hmm. since when is being right being wrong?

since religions ARE little more than superstitious results of fear combined with ignorance, with a seasoning of old wives tales combined with some efforts to create some semblance of social structure in absence of a viable legal system.

[tx_dem41]

12. Yep....you answered my questions "perfectly".

You have the "dogma", and the accompanying arrogance, down pat.

This is what always frustrates me about my fellow Atheists. Many can be as strident and intolerant as the more "devout" religious folks can be. To the point, where I can't really tell the difference between them.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

17. Tx-dem, I didn't know you were an atheist.

I'm beginning to put name to personality a bit and I recognize your username.

[tx_dem41]

20. I've noticed a lot of your posts TallahasseeGrannie....

I like what you have to say and the manner you say it in.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

32. You are kind

and this was one hell of a thread, no?

[ChairmanAgnostic]

33. thank you. I try.

but a truth is a truth. The history of organized religions is one of the quest for power, ultimately corrupted, death, war, politics and more war. the ability for western humans to organize, grow and discover the world around them was stopped in its tracks solely because Christianity exerted such control over Europe. The Dark Ages are known best for the death and torture inflicted on innocents simply because of religion.

The Saracens had a thriving society, with poetry, metallurgy, astronomy, medicine, math, ceramics, dyes and paints, literature and more. This came to a dead end when the fundies in their religion took control.

Religion has been and continues to be a pimple on the ass of mankind. It causes more trouble, death and destruction than any other force. It concentrates the worst of humanity, such as rampant greed, vindictiveness, deceit and power of weaker folks and does damage as it plods on.

Need another example? Look at America today. EVERY ill our country is suffering can be tied to the rise of the ultra-right Fundies who demand that they be allowed to impose their brain-damaged ideas on the rest of the world. Today's political-religious leaders have caused us to invade a country without justification, caused torture to be done in the name of freedom, destroyed our constitution, the deliberate and planned failure of our welfare and social programs, in exchange for a favored few religious (mainly fundie) institutions who are taking them over.

Religion truly is the source of evil in America and other parts of the world. As science, societies, legal systems, constitutions, communications. world treaties, and other advances continue to progress, the less relevant religions become. Just like the lamp-lighters' Union in New York was rendered obsolete by Tom Edison's light bulb, religion will be rendered obsolete by education, knowledge and a ripping away of dangerous superstitions.

[manic expression]

41. Hold on a second

The eras of learning in Egypt, Greece, Rome, Mesopotamia and other places were in times where religion was widely practiced. Furthermore, during that extremely long period, there was VERY little religious strife. The rise of monotheistic and intolerant religions changed that.

The Saracens had a thriving society during the time of religion. Actually, the period after Muhammad was pretty "fundamentalist" in the Islamic world, BUT they were tolerant of other religions (at least the religions of the book. Other religions got screwed over by the same attitude). Because of various influences, invasions (not the least of which were the Crusades) and the passing of time it declined and changed.

Intolerant religion is definitely a scar. However, religion itself is not at fault. The same could be said of science, as it has led to racism, colonialism, the destruction of cultures, technology of murder and war, pollution and worse. Hopefully you get my meaning.

I must disagree with you on this point. America was pretty bad before this period as well. Have you heard of Eugenicism?

Although much strife in the world is because of religion, realize that there is a great distinction between religion and terrible use of religion. Furthermore, I would make the argument that many organized religions, such as pre-Christian and Islamic traditions of Europe and Asia, Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism, Shintoism and others are very tolerant and have not done so many ills you speak of, while other religions have contributed to very terrible things (but this may have arisen primarily because of misuse).

Religion will continue to be a central aspect of our society. The lamp-lighter's Union may have been rendered useless, but unions were not. The only question is how religion is used.

I know what you are getting at, but you should not just broadly criticize all religions, just the ones that deserve it, when they deserve it.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

55. I sit corrected. You make some great points.

thanks.

[nemo137]

43. Honestly, I think we need an XY axis

Belief/Nonbelief (defined by the religion/social norms pertenint to whatever we're talking to) on the X axis, and Tolerance/Intolerance on the Y axis.

Or not, but it's a fun conceptualization.

[Zhade]

47. It's not dogma to point out that there is no evidence of gods.

It's not intolerant to point out that there is no evidence of, say, Noah's Ark or the purported resurrection of Jesus.

It's merely a fact - unless you have some evidence I don't know about, in which case, bring it forth! It's been remarkable absent all this time.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

16. Ahh, but there's the rub

nobody knows what is right and what is wrong, really. We are all just guessing. Belief systems are just that: beliefs.

Saying religious are little more than superstitions is your belief, your guess, your view.

I'm sure you wouldn't claim otherwise. Because if you have some inside track on this, sit here and let me in on it. We can make some money.

[burythehatchet]

18. Right on Grannie

Its called "faith" for a reason, as opposed to a guarantee. My personal belief is simply that God is Love. Kinda cheesy I know, but after 4 decades of thinking about it, that's really all I can come up with.:)

[Zhade]

49. That's not entirely true.

It is a proven fact that man cannot walk on water. Unless you have irrefutable evidence that such an act has happened at some point in time, and can produce that evidence for independent scientific testing that is falsifiable, the contention "man cannot walk on water" stands as proven.

So no, it's NOT all guessing.

[burythehatchet]

9. An atheist would probably not bring up religion in

conversation, neither do I. But you ask a good hypothetical question that I would not know how to answer without actually being in that situation.

[China_cat]

21. As an atheist

I don't care what other people believe as long as they don't insist that I subscribe to their delusions.

[burythehatchet]

26. I think we're saying essentially the same thing.

[AntiCoup2K4]

34. The person in your example would be a Rabid Anti-theist....

..easily distinguishable from Atheists like yourself, by the content of their posts. The Rabid Anti-theists are the "fundie radicals" of non-belief. They are every bit as crazy as Pat Robertson or Osama Bin Laden, and just as sure that everyone else should be forced to follow their (non)beliefs. A certain thread about roadside markers in Utah illustrates the clear differences between Atheists and Rabid Anti-theists.

[KittyWampus]

35. Excellent distinction and clearly put. Thanks!

[thinkingwoman]

39. Bravo! Well said!!

:applause: :woohoo: :yourock:

[ChairmanAgnostic]

40. I don't follow the logic. Why is expressing your opinion "rabid"?

To read history and come to the conclusion that religions kill more often than they "save" is pretty easy. That is why today's christian fundies hate science, education and do everything in their power to stop it. (See also, almost every decision made by this administration)

What is rabid about raising the point that religion truly is the opiate of the masses, that it convinces people to be led by guilt, fear, and bigotry (especially directed to competing cults)
Just look at today's Air Force Academy. If ever there was a need for a thorough scrubbing and removal of all things religious, that is the prime example. General Boyton, of the "my god has a larger male appendage than your god, and will kick his butt in a fight" continues to proselytize at the same time as he works as the highest ranking military officer reporting to Rumsfeld.

[nemo137]

46. Because your logic depends on classifying an infinite spectrum

of religious belief and expressions by it's most vicious end. People can be just as easily bribed by nationalism or mammon as they can by religion. Are we to write off all forms of dedication to entities larger than ourselves, and all forms of trade then, too?

[ChairmanAgnostic]

54. But this vicious end is wagging the dog-ma.

When the college which trains most of USAF pilots is brainwashing them in fundie ideas (the earth is 6000 yrs old, there will be rapture in your lifetime, if you are not reborn, you will be hazed, etc) I think we have a serious, structural problem. The problem with religious fanatics is not that they exist. They have every right to. The Problem, here and now, in the USA, is that the radical fundies hold positions of such power that they are seeking to enforce their will and ideas on everyone else.

From one perspective there can be much good in teaching a child lessons contained in a badly translated collection of dogma combined with an ancient jewish text. It clearly holds some entertaining lessons for mankind.
That becomes dangerous when the training requires the kid to shut off all curiosity and take the bible as inerrantly true, and as the final, only source of information on every conceivable question. That constitutes child abuse, pure and simple.


I have asked this elsewhere, and have never seen an answer.

If god is all knowing, and the bible is inerrant and the sole, final, source of information on issues, give me the chapter and verse on these issues:
Where does the bible ban stem cell research? If god is so powerful, surely he should have forseen this science and would have mentioned in his book.
Why do black holes exist and where in the bible are they mentioned? Do they shed matter over time? Does information remain coherent when it passes the event horizon?
When stars go supernova, and the earth is bombarded by an increase in cosmic rays, why does god permit an increase in the rate of mutated DNA in living things?
Where in the bible is the control over one's reproductive systems banned? Why does the bible not mention abortion or the morning after pill? Did god forget, or did he make a mistake?


It is so egotistical to believe that a religion has all the answers, and therefore you MUST accept their decisions. Humanity is such a small pimple on the ass of gnat, compared to the truth, the size and the age of the multiverse, that our arrogance continues to astound. But when that religious faith actively interferes with society's development, it becomes the danger. Over many centuries, religions all have caused more damage than good. I'd love to see an example of the opposite.

[Goblinmonger]

44. You are right

as evidenced by the fact that in the Utah thread it was the athesits calling the christians idiots, assholes, retards, lying pieces of crap, etc., etc., etc.....Oh, wait, it was the other way around.

As I said elsewhere, you can worship whatever you want, just don't shove it down my throat.

[Zhade]

50. Respectfully (and I mean it, as I like your posts), that's bullshit.

Atheists being concerned about the separation of church and state is NOT the same as being "as crazy as Pat Robertson or Osama bin Laden".

[MindPilot]

56. Flame bait n/t

[Bike Punk]

2. Tell them that GOD decides who is right or wrong

and then walk away.

[knitter4democracy]

4. That's my usual answer.

I usually add that no human has actually read the Book of Life, so who are we to know who's going to heaven or not? That usually stumps them.

[MindPilot]

57. Oh yeah, Atheists are really dumb and easy to confound

with a rhetorical question. :eyes:

[Zhade]

63. That's begging the question, since no one knows such a book exists.

NT!

[Catch22Dem]

3. I think all religion is wrong

But I don't tell people that.

[DanCa]

14. And I respect you for your point of view.

Just because you and i disagree doesn't mean we cant get along.

[Solomon]

25. I've been wrestling with this idea of being tolerant of religions.

At the age of fifty I have at long last come to the conclusion that all religion is wrong as well. I spent the prior years of my life as very religious.

I know it's not a popular view, but lately I have come to the conclusion that maybe it's time to stop being so tolerant about religion in terms of not debating it. It's considered bad form to argue with people about religious beliefs but I don't have any problem doing that. I think it's high time we do.

It doesn't hurt my feelings that religionists think I'm going to hell, so it shouldn't hurt their feelings if I think they are stupid for believing myths.

[kahleefornia]

29. I don't think its considered bad form if

the other person brings up the subject first. Hey, if anyone wants to debate religion, they'll get their money's worth from me. But on any subject, just going up to people and telling them that you know better than they do is just annoying, and never seems to work.

I think you're right though - it's like religious political correctness - you're never "supposed to" say anything bad about religion. I haven't noticed that people are supposed to be nice to atheists.

[Zhade]

51. It's not intolerant to state facts.

Like, say, that there is no objective evidence for the existence of gods.

[burythehatchet]

60. If there was any evidence of the existence of God

they wouldn't have to call it "faith" anymore, right?

[Zhade]

62. I don't think they could, since faith is belief without evidence.

Believers saying they "have faith in _____" are essentially saying "I know there is no evidence for _____, but I believe it anyway".

That's why it's amusing to see someone say they have faith in god, then get pissed off when people point out the fact that there is no objective evidence for such a being existing. Hey, don't get mad at ME when you admit up front that you have no evidence!

Or worse, the old canard that belief itself is evidence, which turns the whole idea of faith on its head.

[baldguy]

6. Religious tolerance is a traditional American value.

Ask them "why do you hate America?"

[Goblinmonger]

45. That was sarcasm, right?

I mean, the Puritans came here and instantly started persecuting natives, then Quakers, then "witches", then..... I don't think it has stopped yet.

[FooFootheSnoo]

7. I agree

"Christians don't have a monopoly on God". I can't remember where or when I read that quote or who said it, but that's what I tell those who think they know the mind of God and his will. You can substitute another religion if you need to. I don't think any religion has the full truth, God is too large for that.

[burythehatchet]

13. There is a philosophy in Hinduism that says

as soon as you attempt to describe God, you have failed to understand the nature of God.

[manic expression]

42. What 'philosophy' or 'tradition'

or what-have-you do you belong to (if any)? I'm just curious.

[DanCa]

8. I have great disdain for anyone who puts embryos over human beings

I awake in pain every day with a shortness of breath, and in inability to move a muscle except for a pinky. If i dont get nervous I can start to regain muscle control in a fifteen minute period, if i start freaking out, i start vomiting and choking up blood. Every day and thier is no cure.

There is no cure for when my muscles stiffen and am starring in space for periods of time, or i fall asleep. And there is new cure for the staff infections and night mares that my medicine gives me.

There is no cure do to my tremors which can grow so violent i cant zip my jacket, eat soup, or use the rest room by myself. And where are the self righteous righties?

Will they clean up after me, will they cut the cost of my medicine, will they even hire me so i dont fire bad about getting a disability check? No there too busy trying to protect the almighty embryo, and they want to banish me from thier church because i disagree with them on theraputic genetic medicine.

So this is your chance right wingers. If you dont want me to have stem cell research will you please volunteer to clean me up when i have an accident or give me money out of your pocket so i can support myselt or hire me?
What right do you have to force me to suffer like this. I think the gop stands for the get off on pain party.

[kahleefornia]

22. what do you "have" DanCa?

Sounds absolutely terrible.

[DanCa]

24. young onset parkinsons stage two. The symptoms and degree do vary

from time to time. But my mornings generaly start off like that. Right nows really bad because i got this staff infection from my meds that have actualy left open sores on my skin

[KittyWampus]

36. I hope you find healing DanCa. It is interesting that control of your

emotions can help ease the discomforts a bit.

[burythehatchet]

59. Well said. DanCa, please be as well as possible.

:hug:

[Zhade]

52. I sure hope we can get past this nonsense with regards to stem cells.

You're one of the best DUers here, and it would be nice to see you get better.

[Kazak]

10. "Turn the other cheek" or "an eye for an eye"?

I dunno...

[Deja Q]

11. The Bible... so many dichotomies to choose from, so little time...

Besides, it's more fun to pick'n'choose what's "right" and what is not.

[Kazak]

15. Belief System

B.S.

;)

[TallahasseeGrannie]

19. I always learned that

the OT got canceled out by the New T.

However, Paul was a misogynist and I don't feel obliged to do a damned thing HE said. End of story for me.

[KittyWampus]

37. In another thread someone posted "the Birth of Christ changed Everything"

and it resonated especially since the Fascists have spouted that since and about 9/11.

[Union Thug]

23. Do what all good religious populations do...

Kill them and take their land.

[jus_the_facts]

27. it pisses me off to have to be classified by any religion or lack thereof.

....there are much more pressing matters to be concerned with TODAY..instead of blathering on and on about the past which nobody seems to ever learn from regardless...those who have and those who have not....eons old issues that religion helps to keep the masses divided and ignorant while the haves and have mores invent new and improved ways to manipulate us all with the same old brainwahing techniques for millennia....and the politics therein. :nopity:

[readmylips]

28. I'D PUNCH HIM RIGHT SMACK IN THE MOUTH....

hey, I got no religion according to the person. The devil made me do it!

[seabeyond]

30. if.... a person tells me my religion is wrong, i would still give them

respect in their religion, yes i would. because that is what is required of my religion. i would also not feel i have to protect and defend myself or my religion. i would nto take it personally either, because the person is not in my heart, cannot judge, does not see thru my eyes. adn still i could love that person

why

because my faith allows me to

[QC]

31. This needs to be in the religion forum. n/t

[KittyWampus]

38. Except it encompasses a discussion touching on non-religious DU'ers

and the way we all interact.

[Zhade]

48. Happily, there is no requirement that you respect anyone's BELIEFS.

It's expected that you will respect their RIGHT to their beliefs, but the beliefs themselves? No such expectation, and no such requirement.

[Zenlitened]

61. Good point.

:thumbsup:

The talibornagains use this misconception to their advantage, too often. If someone pipes up and says "hey, I don't like what you're doing," they start shrieking about how their religious liberty is being attacked. :eyes:

[Goldensilence]

53. right and wrong are often in the eye of the beholder

so i would more ask them what they think makes them so right? Because a book says so? Because something they feel? So it makes you tick great. That is what have made your reason for existence. Good but it is not what drives us all. We all have our own reasons...and i kind of like that myself. A world full of such diversity and some hate it so completely. I kind of prefer the spiritual anarchy myself.

It might strike me as odd or strange that some people are so afraid of an afterlife(good or bad) that they forget to live now. I do wish however people wouldn't believe so feverantly. Have a few good ideas of what to do, how to behave yourself, how to treat others(and i mean ALL sentient life in this) and let's try and do some good things together...try to make this whole life deal a truely amazing experience.

In the end I think we're all kind of guessing what we're doing here and instead of, pretending like we know and fight each other's beleifs that constantly take mankind around in circles, getting nowhere fast. Maybe we should look at each other and take it as regaurdless of whether there is a god or not all we have in the end right now is each other.

Peace n Respect

[burythehatchet]

58. Very thoughtful comments Goldensilence

welcome to DU. Its good to have you.

[Zhade]

64. Nicely said.

I don't begrudge people their beliefs - hey, if some feeling they interpret to mean their chosen myths are true makes them happy, have at it! Just don't mistake personal subjective interpretations for objective evidence that such myths are true, because they're not evidence.

Let's get on with dealing with proven reality, and leave the myths for a time when real problems have been resolved.

[greyl]

65. Yes, better to speak of what works and what doesn't work.

Right and wrong should be avoided.
Using that method, there are mountains of evidence over several thousand years that religion doesn't work, and that the community of life works much better in the absence of unreasonable beliefs.

[Goldensilence]

66. sounds like....

someone else has read Ishmael and the Story of B? :toast:

[greyl]

67. Cheers!

And to fill the issue out a bit:

The Question (ID Number 435)...

I understand (and agree) that there is no one right way for people to live. But does this necessarily imply that there is no WRONG way for people to live? Don't you agree, for example, that the Holocaust was wrong?

...and the response:
Once upon a time, someone cornered Uru with exactly your question.

"Here's what I think," Uru said. "I think people should always do things that are fat but never do things that are thin."
"I don't understand," the other said. "What does fat and thin have to do with it?"
"Well, you asked me what I think, and this is what I think."
"But in these terms, was the Holocaust fat or thin?"
"Oh, it was horribly thin."
"This makes no sense to me at all," the other said. "How do you know it was thin?"
"Because it was one of the most disgraceful episodes in human history."
"I'm afraid this still makes no sense."
"Maybe some other examples will help. Do you think capital punishment is fat or thin?"
"To be honest, I have no idea. I think it's totally absurd to consider the matter in these terms."
"But in your personal life, surely you try to do things that are fat and avoid doing things that are thin. For example, you'd never go up to a perfect stranger and slap him in the face, because you know this would be thin."
"The fact that it would be thin would have nothing to do with it."
Uru nodded. "This is exactly the way I think about your terms, right and wrong. They're as meaningless to me as fat and thin are to you. I would no more ask myself whether a contemplated action is right or wrong than you would ask yourself whether it's fat or thin."
http://www.ishmael.org/Interaction/QandA/Detail.CFM?Record=435