What about pets?

[Strong Atheist]

Do they have souls? Do they go to heaven? If not, I don't wanna go. You can't make me!:P

P.S. : Got to go out today. Will check this thread tonight!

[joeybee12]

1. The Sunday School teacher on The Simpsons says no...

...and you can't get a higher authority than that!

[Strong Atheist]

3. Well, then,

x(

[havocmom]

2. Have met some soulful pets. Have met some humans without soul

Have come to personal conclusion that the soul is made of strong energies of feeling. Love is not just something humans can do.

And have had experiences which make me comfortable with the belief that the energy of love survives when the vessel breaks.

[Strong Atheist]

5. Ah. I do not believe in souls, or after.

But I do believe in emotions. We somewhat agree, especially on the qualities of animals ...

[havocmom]

11. Used to think along your lines. Experience has changed my mind.

Nothing that can be proved or quantifited to suit my analytical nature, but enough to show me not all is yet known.

And the cummlative affects of experience have given me that which I envied in some others: Faith. Not faith demanding blind acceptance of what some other people have compiled in a book, but an enduring faith in energies which I cannot see but feel. No doctirne, no membership rules, no price for admittance. Just a faith that this facet of the ones I know is not all of them.

A very loving cat showed me, knowing I am from Missouri, that she still exsited after her body was spent. She summed up the many lessons life had offered and brought them to crystal clarity. I tried my best to find another explanation, believe me, I tried to disprove the experience. Sometimes fate will give you what you need, whether you want it or not.

And I know my reality and faith are mine alone. No problem with those who don't share the gift, so long as they don't deny it to me.

Life is so much more than we can measure with the poor tools we have. Perhaps someday... perhaps someone will be inspired and find a way. Perhaps their dog or cat will help them find a way to prove all of what life is.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

19. Thank you

I think we travel a similar path, in that we share the same feelings about our reality and faith-and how can reality and faith be anything by ours alone? I gladly give you your gift, and wish you peace.

[Wetzelbill]

4. hell yeah they do!

[Strong Atheist]

6. Well, ok then. nt.

[okasha]

8. Not just "pets"--all living things, including the Earth herself.

The Lakota have an expression for it--Mitake oyasin, "All our relations."

[Wetzelbill]

9. I'd tell you the Blackfeet expression

but, sadly I don't know it.

We believe essentially the same thing though. You hit it exactly.

[LA lady]

7. Of Course!

It wouldn't be Heaven without your pets.

[Wetzelbill]

10. I couldn't imagine it otherwise

honestly, it would be so sad if you couldn't see your old pets, you know? It just wouldn't be heaven then. :)

[Branjor]

12. Darn right they have souls!

Look into the eyes of the little guy in my sig line. Nobody could look into his eyes and come away believing he didn't have a soul.

[SkiGuy]

13. All good dogs go to heaven

[Cerridwen]

14. A little story I received via email a few weeks ago...

It seems to fit in here. :D I hope you enjoy.



A man and his dog were walking along a road. The man was enjoying the scenery, when it suddenly occurred to him that he was dead.

He remembered dying, and that the dog walking beside him had been dead for years. He wondered where the road was leading them.

After a while, they came to a high, white stone wall along one side of the road. It looked like fine marble. At the top of a long hill, it was broken by a tall arch that glowed in the sunlight.

When he was standing before it he saw a magnificent gate in the arch that looked like mother-of-pearl, and the street that led to the gate looked like pure gold. He and the dog walked toward the gate, and as he got closer, he saw a man at a desk to one side.

When he was close enough, he called out, "Excuse me, where are we?"

"This is Heaven, sir," the man answered.

"Wow! Would you happen to have some water?" the man asked.

"Of course, sir. Come right in, and I'll have some ice water brought right up."

The man gestured, and the gate began to open.

"Can my friend," gesturing toward his dog, "come in, too?" the traveler asked.

"I'm sorry, sir, but we don't accept pets."

The man thought a moment and then turned back toward the road and continued the way he had been going with his dog.

After another long walk, and at the top of another long hill, he came to a dirt road leading through a farm gate that looked as if it had never been closed. There was no fence.

As he approached the gate, he saw a man inside, leaning against a tree and reading a book.

"Excuse me!" he called to the man. "Do you have any water?"

"Yeah, sure, there's a pump over there, come on in."

"How about my friend here?" the traveler gestured to the dog.

"There should be a bowl by the pump."

They went through the gate, and sure enough, there was an old-fashioned hand pump with a bowl beside it.

The traveler filled the water bowl and took a long drink himself, then he gave some to the dog.

When they were full, he and the dog walked back toward the man who was standing by the tree.

"What do you call this place?" the traveler asked.

"This is Heaven," he answered.

"Well, that's confusing," the traveler said. "The man down the road said that was Heaven, too."

"Oh, you mean the place with the gold street and pearly gates? Nope. That's hell."

"Doesn't it make you mad for them to use your name like that?"

"No, we're just happy that they screen out the folks who would leave their best friends behind."

[hlthe2b]

16. Nicd... very nice.

As she goes to hug her best friend....

[Strong Atheist]

21. Hee Hee!

:P

[Maat]

30. That's a great story!

Thanks for the post.

I hope to be reunited with Oz, Athena, Angel the Rat Sister, and Lazarus.

I'm going to go hug Minerva, Snowball, and Dot right now; I'll have to just pet the Rat Sisters.

[El Supremo]

36. Thanks for digging up that story.

Saved me the time.

[sasha031]

45. what a beautiful story

thank you, I just lost my cat today,

can you imagine a heaven without animals, I sure can't.

[China_cat]

15. I'm an atheist

if you look at the concept of heaven (or hell for that matter) long enough, the idea falls apart on its own for lack of contrast.

However, if there were to be a heaven at all, I believe that only animals would qualify to inhabit it.

[Strong Atheist]

22. I am too, of course. It was, for me,

a hypothetical question.

[PsychoDad]

17. The Quran states that they, like us will return to God.

"There is not an animal (That lives) on the earth, Nor a being that flies On its wings, but (forms Part of) communities like you. Nothing have We omitted From the Book, and they (all) Shall be gathered to their Lord In the end. (The Noble Quran, 6:38)"

So, yes, I guess there is more to their existence than simply the physical shell we see, just like us.

Mistreatment of an animal is considered a sin in Islam. A Muslim is responsible for the care of animals so much so that an ill-treated animal will testify against the one who abused it on the Day of Judgment. Islam forbids branding animals and killing them in vain, such as for sport. The Prophet Muhammad forbade people from capturing birds, burning anthills, and whipping animals. Even when slaughtering animals for food, Islam requires that the slaughtering be done in a way which is humane and aims to cause the animals as little suffering as possible.

In two hadiths narrated by Abu Hurayrah (who's name means "father of the cat", because of his love of cats), the Prophet (peace be upon him) told his companions of the virtue of saving the life of a dog by giving it water and quenching its thirst: one referred to was a man who was blessed by Allah for giving water to a thirsty dog. The other was a prostitute, who filled her shoe with water and gave it to a dog that was suffering with thirst. For this simple humane deed she was granted the ultimate reward- eternal Paradise.

Peace

[grumpy old fart]

20. Did it mean the prostitute was killed? You know, so she could get......

to the eternal Paradise.

[PsychoDad]

28. The Hadeeth does not say...

How she eventually arrived at her reward, perhaps she died of accident, sickness or old age. The Hadeeth tells us not.

Peace

[grumpy old fart]

38. So who granted her eternal paradise? Muhammad had that power?

Or was he just passing along Allah's message? And if so, wouldn't she have to be killed right then just in case she went on whoring? Or was the whoring OK because she was kind to animals? Or was this just one of those apocryphal stories?

[PsychoDad]

40. I think the Hadeeth was meant to illustrate

That even a small act of kindness to any of God's creatures could outweigh all our other shortcomings on the Divine scale.

The Hadeeth does not record her name or age, nor does it tell us about the circumstances of how she came to be a prostitute.

It doesn't even say she was Muslim, or believed in any God.

But because of a act of kindness, simply for the sake of kindness, she was given paradise. Muhammad was a man, he did not have the power to fogive her or grant her a place in paradise, that was the doing of Allah.


Peace

[grumpy old fart]

42. So the woman was not literally "given" a place in paradise....

it was just the writer's opinion of a lesson Muhammad meant to convey in telling the story?

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

18. Ya wahkan alai wahakan alo

(All things are sacred). In the Lakota tradition, animal spirits are guides and helpers. I have been in ceremony when the Black Tailed Deer healed a man who was suffering. I have sung the Eagle song, the Buffalo song, the Spider song, and many others. In the Native American Lakota tradition I am familiar with, animals not only have spirits, they are intermediaries between people and the Spirit World.

[manic expression]

23. To me...

an animal is no different than a human being. Not ONLY in the spiritual sense, but also because humans ARE animals. Furthermore, an animal is no different than a tree, or a river, or a mountain or even a house in the end. Everything is the individually equal. As snowflakes are infinitely different, yet basically equal and similar, so too are all things.

What do you think?

(on edit) And on heaven, I think that it is illogical in many ways. Beings do not die, they simply take a new form (it is possible to trancend this cycle, however, but that is not a "heaven" at all).

[Strong Atheist]

24. I was actually just curious

as to what various religious folks thought. I don't believe in either souls or heaven/life after death.

[manic expression]

25. It's an interesting question

Thanks for asking it.

[Strong Atheist]

26. Given my views, I was not entirely

serious. Just wanted to see what religious folks thought.

[manic expression]

27. It's interesting, nonetheless

What do you think about the answers you have received so far?

What are your thoughts on the difference, or lack thereof, between humans and other animals?

[InaneAnanity]

29. The difference is...

Our communication skills enabled our brains to grow at a very fast rate, and have, over millions of years, made us leaps and bounds smarter than any other species.

That, and walking erect, is the only difference between us and other animals.

[manic expression]

31. Quite right

in the end, there is very little difference between humans and other animals. VERY little difference.

However, if one looks at history, are we truly "smart"? Would a "smarter" species destroy their own habitats? Use their resources badly? Be unable to resolve disputes well? I think not. It is ignorance that leads to these ills. Would you agree?

and on edit, in the highest sense, there is NO difference.

[InaneAnanity]

35. Our communication skills enable us to be smart

They allow us to learn from others and learn what our ancestors have learned. If you were to eliminate language, we wouldn't be much smarter than apes, but we are.

[manic expression]

37. So perhaps we are not 'smart'

but have simply amassed knowledge over time and collective work.

I think that we are not much smarter than apes, but it is what we gain from nurture that gives us our characteristics. I do think Lamarck had a very good point.

[InaneAnanity]

39. No

I think our language sped our evolution. We are alot smarter than apes, or any other known species.

[manic expression]

46. Of course

but it is not intrinsically human. Since it was amassed through time, it is the inheritance of acquired characteristics, no? That makes us just another species that has been able to gain more collective knowledge, but not one that is naturally smarter than any other.

[InaneAnanity]

49. Well

We are no different from other animals intrinsically, but we are smarter than any other animal. It doesn't make us special in any way, it just is what it is.

[manic expression]

51. Right

I definitely agree with you on the similarity between humans and other animals.

However, are we "smarter" (in certain respects, as other animals are WAY "smarter" than we are when it comes to various skills such as hunting, identifying scents, etc...) because of inheritance of acquired characteristics? This is something that I'm curious about.

I also agree with you in how humans are not special, but are merely "better" at certain things.

[Strong Atheist]

32. It is a matter of self awareness. The self awareness

scale extends from viruses/amoebas all the way to humans. Many animals are close to us in self-awareness.

[manic expression]

33. Very true

Actually, animals are WAY more aware than humans. I mean WAY MORE. When natural disasters are about to strike, animals have been known to evacuate the area. Birds have senses that enable them to effectively navigate during migration. Any non-human animal completely embodies their role in the world and nature. Humans, on the other hand, injure their environment more times than not.

We may be more aware on a certain level, but on terms of the level of nature and the workings of the world, other animals blow us out of the water.

[Strong Atheist]

34. Ok.

We may be more aware on a certain level, but on terms of the level of nature and the workings of the world, other animals blow us out of the water.

Agree in whole with this part.

[Zebedeo]

41. Animals are incapable of sinning

I believe that since animals cannot disobey God, they are not guilty of sin and therefore there would be no impediment to them being admitted to God's house.

We know that there are horses in Heaven, because Revelations tells us that the four horsemen of the apocalypse will come riding on them.

I don't know what God has in mind for ticks and mosquitos. Hopefully, if they make it to Heaven, they will be given their own section.

[xultar]

43. YES.

[ozone_man]

44. Animals have souls too,

but there's no heaven. We have to enjoy their souls while they're alive. My cats have a lot of soul. :)

Scientists ‘Discover’ Emotions In Animals

Researchers working in neurobiology and behavioral observation seem to be learning what pet lovers have known all along: animals have feelings.

By Animal News, 8/10/2003

by Patricia Collier

Researchers working in neurobiology and behavioral observation seem to be learning what pet lovers have known all along: animals have feelings.

New evidence gathered from actually studying dogs, chimps and other animals, supports pet owners’ firm convictions that animals experience fear, jealousy, grief and love.

"Five years ago my colleagues would have thought I was off my rocker," said biologist Marc Bekoff. "But now scientists are finally starting to talk about animal emotions in public. It’s like they’re coming out of the closet."

For example, recent studies show dogs excel at reading human emotional cues which enables them to be equally astute at expressing their own feelings.

Samuel Gosling, a biologist at the University of Texas at Austin, said dogs have proven to be quite emotionally complex. He said there are four dimensions of canine personality: sociability, affection, emotional stability and competence (a word used to represent obedience and intelligence combined).

According to Gosling, these dimensions are "remarkably similar to the four basic categories of human personality found in standard psychological tests."

http://www.buzzle.com/editorials/8-10-2003-44071.asp

[HockeyMom]

47. The Night after my 16 year old cat died

We were having a BBQ that day and my then 6 year old daughter found him dead in the living room. To say all of us were devastated would be a understatement. Myself, my husband, and two daughters cried for hours. We buried him in the backyard with all of his toys.

That night my husband and I went to bed holding each other, sobbing. While we were consoling each other, we felt a thump on the bed. We both could feel the tiny foot steps walking around us. We FROZE in silence as the footsteps walked all around us and then disappeared.

Chappy had always been a very sensitive cat who would come from wherever he was whenever one of us was depressed and crying. He would sometimes lick our faces in our times of despair as if to say, "Don't worry. It's ok." Well, on the night of his death it seemed to us that he came back to us to say, "Don't worry. Please don't cry. I am ok."

[FM Arouet666]

48. Other animals with a soul?

Sure, the cute and the cuddly have souls. We all want rover to be with us in the after life. After all, sitting on a cloud for an eternity with the love of jesus might get old. Sorry, lord, I love ya, but hey, can we get some entertainment? Throwing the stick to rover for a trillion years might be fun.

Now, if we let rover have a soul, what about the cat, and the dear gold fish; Peaches. If Peaches bites the eternal bullet and gets flushed into the afterlife, can we still experience his peaceful splash in heaven? Ok, so cats, dogs, and cute little fishes are ok. What about other animals?

Cows? Heck, they are cute, they have those big "come and kiss me I am lonely" eyes. It might be awkward to see Randy the cow up in heaven when you just consumed him as a succulent fillet mignon. How would you start the conversation? Glad to see you made it to heaven, oh, and by the way you tasted good with that Napa Cabernet and A1 steak sauce.

Ok, so pets are in, cows are out. What about other forms of life. Only sentient life? What about plants and other animal life. All life is sacred, right? The fundies would have us believe that a singe cell has a soul. A godless sperm and a vacuous egg get together, and praise be to the god of all mankind, a miracle, a soul jumps into the little guy, or gal, and you have a person. So what about an amoeba. God made it, a miracle, it is life, so why no soul? Not evolved enough to understand that it is just a little nothing in the world? Maybe it does have a soul.

Bacteria, single cell organisms, plants, boy that is a lot of souls. Heaven must look like a cheap New York apartment on the lower east side, full of all sorts of little creatures.

To the religious adherent, only humans have souls, and only humans go to heaven. I would wager that our closest relatives the chimps, 98% our genetic makeup, go the same place when we die. And it ain't a cloud with a bunch of banal televangelists and ghostly single cell organisms.


:evilgrin:

[grumpy old fart]

50. How about that mean Rottweiler who chewed up Grandma?

That's the problem when you get into this "soul" thing. We all like to think of our lovable sensitive pets going to heaven, but what of the mean pets? Doggie Hell?