What is a "True Christian"?

[FM Arouet666]

The "True Christian", I am told, is one who follows the message of Jesus. The message is one of peace, of love, respect for your fellow human being, all received through a belief in the divinity of Christ.

Sounds nice, if you can accept the divinity concept, but reality is something very different.

Condemnation of homosexuals, subjugation of women, praise for an administration bent on world domination, an administration which refuses to rule out torture, detention without trial, domestic surveillance etc etc.

Are these Christian values? I thought Christianity provided for clearly defined moral values, condemning the relative moral character of secular society. The majority Christian movement supports the GOP and therefore supports imperialism, torture, war and it's consequences, subjugating women through control of reproduction, eroding science in favor of 'some kind' of design.

So, what is a "true christian"? An apologetic term meant to provide absolution for the sins of the christian conservative majority? Those proclaiming to be "true christians" seek absolution, distancing themselves from excesses of fundamentalism. I find the use of the term to be patently disingenuous.

On DU, I have seen numerous posts proclaiming that fundamentalists do not practice "true Christianity." Implying that a Christianity exists which is more tolerant. Where are all these "true Christians"? I have seen conservative Christian views posted with believers providing little or no condemnation. Atheists are frequently the only critical voice of opposition.

Gain absolution by proclaiming one to be a 'true christian' and remain silent to the extremism of members of one's own faith. A recurring theme.

I am sorry, but the "True Christian" is the conservative fundamentalist. When I hear the term 'Christian,' fundamentalist is what I think of, not the progressive DU apologetic seeking absolution. If the progressive Christian wants to redefine "True Christian" a louder voice condemning extremism must be heard.


:evilfrown:

[applegrove]

1. fundies been around for a bit. Christianity for two milleniuma. Which

do you think is real?

[Bill McBlueState]

9. the Christianity of the Inquisition?

That lasted for several hundred years. So if we're going by which movement within Christianity lasted the longest, the Inquisition seems like the true face of Christianity.

The Christianity of the Crusades could be another good candidate.

[applegrove]

10. Obviously the sober progression is something to be proud of. Those

fundie notions - then or now - not the "right kind of Christians" as Al Sharpton would say.

[EST]

2. Just like Georgie porgy and his insistance that

whatever is the president's power is the presidsent's, because he's president and he said so--a true christian is whatever the "true christian" says it is.

[MissMarple]

3. I like Richard Lang's view.This is old testament but it goes forward.

I think this informs a more accurate view of Christianity.

http://www.yesmagazine.org/article.asp?ID=1325

"Joseph interpreted Pharaoh’s nightmares as a warning that a great famine was coming. If Pharaoh planned for the disaster, the people and Pharaoh’s empire would be saved. Pharaoh was grateful for this interpretation and placed Joseph in charge of the economy. For seven years, the land and the labor of the people created surplus that Joseph wisely stored away.

After seven years the predicted famine came upon the land with a vengeance. Hunger ruled the nations. But in Egypt there was plenty. Nevertheless, Joseph, perhaps seduced by the privileges of Pharaoh’s wealth, power, and philosophy, did not open the grain
silos to share with the people. Instead he forced the people to sell their livestock to Pharaoh in exchange for bread. Then he forced them to sell Pharaoh their land, and finally their bodies until all were enslaved to Pharaoh. All, that is, except the priests, who continued to bless the power of Pharaoh.

The story is a snapshot of Empire, which plunders the commonwealth of the people while protecting the wealth of the elite, with religion going along for the ride. It is a story of hope betrayed.

Jubilee and resistance
But the ancient wisdom also tells a story of hope regained. Alongside the story of Empire, which rises up repeatedly in history, there is also a story of resistance to Empire. The story of resistance emerges from the vision of economic justice known as the Jubilee. The Jubilee is central to the Torah, the Prophets, and the ministry of both Jesus and Paul.

The Jubilee was a blueprint for a just economy. It put a floor under misfortune and misery, preventing generational poverty, even as it put a ceiling on wealth, preventing the emergence of an aristocratic dynasty. It did this through elevating ownership of land, which in those days was wealth, into the hands of God the Creator. Because God owned the land (the wealth), we human beings had no right to seize it for ourselves. It was to be shared for the benefit of all."

[FM Arouet666]

25. Very Apologetic

But I understand your frustration. Christianity had many facets, yours is but one. Sadly the face given to Christianity is that defined by the majority. A faith seeking to oppress homosexuals, regulate female sexual conduct and it's consequences, refute science, censor media deemed to be against the faith. Believe as you like, but do not remain silent. The German heart was good, yet many good people remained silent and a monster was born to exploit those silent masses.

[Dead_Parrot]

4. A "True Christian©" rejects Christ...

...In favour of Leviticus. 'Nuff said.

©Landover Baptist Church,
www.landoverbaptist.org

[TaleWgnDg]

5. LOL . . . sad but (selectively) true! . . . n/t

[trotsky]

8. Ooh, but also rejects certain parts of Leviticus, too.

Because, you know, the parts about not eating pork & shellfish, or not wearing mixed fiber fabrics, or not planting different crops in the same field, well, those are just silly. But those gays are goin' to hell! Yeee-haw!

[Warpy]

6. Mainstream churches have dropped the ball forever

and have tacitly allowed their parishoners to reject Christianity and adopt Calvinism without a whimper.

All the deficits you cited in militant Christianity originated with Paul (who made Christ palatable to the Pharisees) and were refined by Calvin.

Until and unless the churches start to take a stand for the faith they claim to represent, I'll have no use for any of them.

[no_hypocrisy]

7. That question has been the basis of many a war for milennia, to prove

who is the "true" Christian and who has the "true" church.

As it is right now, that theme is predominant in an undeclared war against mainstream Christian churches (methodist, presbyterian, espicolian, etc.) and the new rightwing, fundamentalist "christian" megachurches. The latter is gaining demographically, funneling members from the "old" christian churches, leaving the former with less parishioners and yes, funds. I've heard stories about these churches in financial trouble. They started by cutting money for musicians, turning the heat down significantly, and cutting staff. The megachurches like Joel Osteen's are rolling in contributions and are planning franchises (so to speak). It's like free market principles in action in a twisted way. It seems that the people most likely to go to church want entertainment and a rubberstamp OK that they are christian for just showing up and voting republican rather than interspection and a call to go out and make the world better in order to prove they are worthy to return to church the next Sunday.

[bloom]

11. I think there is a lot of similarity

...with the brain-dead mindbotism of the huge churches and the brain-dead mindbotism of "patriotism" (at least patriotism as defined by the Republicans). How soothing it must be to pretend that you are good while your country kills, tortures and intidmidates others for you while you remain oblivious.

The Republican planners talk of using religion to support their ends.

I think it's very similar thinking - the idea that our country is "bringing democracy" to Iraq or Haiti or places like that and the idea that being a part of huge churches - you are a part of something good. Either way - it's participating in an illusion.

[Goblinmonger]

12. "When facism comes to America

it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." Sinclair Lewis

[hunter]

13. Many "megachurches" are truly toxic.

In these places "Opening your heart to Jesus" and your wallet to the church is like buying a "Get out of Hell" card in God's great game of Monopoly.

People go to these churches to feel good about themselves.

All organized religion is like that to some extent -- after all, a church doesn't want to scare away it's own faithful -- but it always seems to me these "rightwing fundamentalist 'christian' megachurches" are places of spiritual stagnation. People go to these churches seeking affirmation rather than repentance, absolution, or any other sort of spiritual challenge. One's own sins as a good upstanding citizen of the United States are easily dispensed and one becomes better than, say, any liberal riff-raff posting on Democratic Underground.

Your mention of the Joel Osteen's Lakewood Church is particularly apt. While googling about it I found this:

Joel Olsteen is the pastor. Lakewood Church, Houston is the congregation.

So what is preached there? Biblical truths.

This is a slap in the face against the liberal theology taking hold in various mainline denominations, including the apostasy underpinned by baptizing practicing homosexuality as a divinely-smiled-upon lifestyle.

Conservative. Evangelical. Biblical.

That’s what Lakewood Church is all about. It has no tinge of liberalism. It has no trucking with the apostasy prone. It has nothing in common with those who deny the divine revelation accepted as Holy Scripture.

-J. Grant Swank, jr., author, columnist, pastor

http://mensnewsdaily.com/blog/swank/2005/07/joel-olsteens-lakewood-church-houston.html

This is an utterly typical representation of FM Arouet666's "True Christian."

From the original post, I agree with FM Arouet666 to a very large extent:

"I am sorry, but the "True Christian" is the conservative fundamentalist. When I hear the term 'Christian,' fundamentalist is what I think of, not the progressive DU apologetic seeking absolution. If the progressive Christian wants to redefine "True Christian" a louder voice condemning extremism must be heard."

I often identify myself here in these forums as a social justice Catholic and an amateur evolutionary biologist. Consider this post my progressive Christian voice condemning extremism.

[bloom]

14. "It has no tinge of liberalism"

wow. that's something.

Esp. to who were raised at least believing in the ideals of Jesus as a liberal, loving person. It's one thing to think that few people are really willing and/or able to live like Jesus and it's another when churches openly espouse that they believe in the opposite.

[Goblinmonger]

15. There are no true christians

Just look through the (now locked) Bush is not a Christain thread. All christians just eliminate those they don't believe in from the club. Baptists will kick out UCC. Catholics will kick out Baptists. Episcopalians will kick out the Catholics. Liberal progressives will kick out the fundies who in turn kick out the lib progressives. Pretty soon nobody is left. And in the mean time, I, a godless atheist, get to

:popcorn:

and

:toast:

with the rest of my buddies who, based on the one thing that all of the above will ironically agree on, will see this in their "afterlife."

:evilgrin:

[hunter]

20. You can come to church with me or not, as you please.

I will also accept similar invitations from others. I've never figured I'm going to hell if I show up in the "wrong" church occasionally. (I've even gone skinny dipping on Sundays with pagan naturists.)

[FM Arouet666]

23. Agreed, the 'True Christian modus operandi'

Taking it to the extreme you have Jesus who has just killed all of mankind proclaiming himself to be the 'True Christian.' Funny you mention the locked post, the spark behind my post. :evilgrin:

[Goblinmonger]

26. Oh, I knew I recognized that spark

I hope to bring up that locked thread as much as possible since it seems to be me to be such a clear indicator of the Christain persecution :sarcasm: on this forum.

And you are clearly one of those people that I look forward to :toast: with should we all end up in "hell."

[Book Lover]

16. I don't understand why it isn't simple

Why is it that a Christian is defined as anything *other* than a person who asserts that Jesus was divine? "Oh, he's not a *real* Christian." Well, if he thinks Jesus was divine, how can he be anything else? Do people who sin lose their Christian card?

[catbert836]

17. I've said this before

There's no such thing as True Christianity. The only true Christian died about 2000 years ago, and if what the Gospels say is true, he would look at the group that calls themselves his followers and say: "No. They're not Christians."

[funflower]

18. The "true Christian" is anybody who agrees with ME.

:woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo:

[CatholicEdHead]

19. Are we really "Christians"

or just radical Jews?

[Igel]

22. Most of the earliest Christians

were conservative Jews.

The 'radical' part came a few generations after Jesus' death.

[Igel]

21. Jesus had many messages.

A 'true Christian' would be defined as one who abides by all of them in a fairly childlike manner.

To the extent a person deviates from the 'party line', s/he's fails to be a true Christian.

Where the dividing line is between 'true Christian' and 'non-Christian' is not up to me to decide, except for me and those that I reasonably have authority over.

The overwhelming majority of people I've known that call themselves Christian have rejected the overwhelming majority of Jesus' messages, IMHO, instead being sure that he couldn't *possibly* mean what he said. They prefer to believe that he's on their side, instead of their being on his side. They may be right. I don't think so, but I don't value my own opinion on the matter very highly.

[jonnyblitz]

24. thanks so much for this thread. You have articulated what I have

been trying to formulate coherently in my head ever since i started getting annoyed with all of the threads here at DU proclaiming that fundies and/ or Bush aren't "real" christians.

like i always said (for example), when Fred Phelps says "fags are worthy of death" he is just quoting what it says in the bible. can't be more truer a christian than that...

Leviticus 20:13 " If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."

I suppose one could say that this passage is taken out of context, a metaphor, or mistranslated. apparently Phelps doesn't think so..but i digress...