"I believe God wants you dead".

[greyl]

What is the best argument to that point of view?

[PatrioticLeftie]

1. "My God can beat up your God"

"If that's true, then why am I still here?"
"Damn you, Pat Robertson!"

[Maat]

2. Well, no doubt Spirit wants me to be able to transition to higher ..

enlightenment ... but I haven't achieved my goals yet in this incarnation.

Usually shuts them up when I say it. They looked stunned. Maybe it's just me.

[greyl]

6. Who do you look up to as being spiritually wise? nt

[Maat]

8. We tend to call "God" "Spirit," or

believe that each person gets to choose their label.

I like to believe that "God" is an "It," and equates to the "One," the "One-Energy," the "Universal Consciousness," or "Spirit."

My young friend prefers "the Cosmic Muffin."

[greyl]

11. The Cosmic Muffin?

That sounds like recreational spirituality to me.

This thread deals with life and death.

Not funny.

[Maat]

13. Certainly not trying to be funny.

But if that was the way we could help this teenager with her spirituality, we were more than willing to accept her term.

And, I belong to the Church of Religious Science; it is nothing like recreational spirituality, I assure you.

We do not believe in Hell, but believe that all transition successfully (and onward). In that sense, we are Universalists ... like the Unitarian-Universalists.

(For more info: www.religiousscience.org ).

And I do not want to see anyone believing that they are going to Hell, or that God wants them dead.

[TygrBright]

14. WhyEVER would you think that God...

...(or whatever you want to label That Which Is Divine) doesn't have a sense of humor?

curiously,
Bright

[Maat]

15. You know, TygrBright, I think God has a great sense of humor ..

and a huge amount of compassion and love!

[greyl]

17. People of Faith are Murdering Others of Faith because

the ones who deserve to die have the 'wrong' faith.

[Maat]

20. And that's what I fight against with my efforts in the

Interfaith Alliance and Americans United for Separation of Church and State.

There's no excuse for that kind of thinking, wanting others to die or believing others are worthy of death because of their beliefs/nonbelief, and that's generally unfortunately occurring within certain hardright religious organizations.

[TygrBright]

21. That's hardly GOD's fault, now, is it?

Here's a great take on that:

http://www.markfiore.com/animation/toon.html

helpfully,
Bright

[greyl]

37. To those who believe in an all powerful, all knowing God, yes.

To the person who believes they have knowledge of who shall live and who shall die because of their religious beliefs, they wouldn't say it's God's fault, they'd explain it away by saying it's God's Will.

[TygrBright]

41. People have been doing dreadful things...

...in the name of "God" (however they label him/her/them/it) since the first proto-hominid figured out that "God wanted him dead" was a better excuse for bashing his neighbor on the head than "I wanted his cave/female/mastodon meat/whatever."

But it doesn't mean that the Divine (however you conceive her/it/him/them) wanted/willed/demanded etc. that humans perpetrate those dreadful things.

Yes, people use the Divine to justify all kinds of disgusting behavior, but putting the blame on God is no more valid than blaming the space aliens or the voices inside your head or the 'coded messages' you heard on the teevee last night.

If I perpetrate a filthy act, the responsibility is primarily my own, less any mitigating factors I can make a jury of my peers believe in (I was horribly abused as a child, or I thought the person I was eviscerating was the scumbag who had just sodomized and murdered my three year old, or the severe schizophrenic break I just had, etc.) I can attribute the reason I acted as I did to "God," but that neither justifies my action, absolves me of responsibility, or proves that "God," in fact, "wanted" anything.

I do, in fact, believe in the Divine. But I don't believe that belief excuses, justifies, or validates taking steps to make anyone dead "in accordance with Divine Will." So right there, your blanket statement about a belief in God justifying murder is inaccurate. Of course, the core of MY belief is that since the Divine is so vastly more complex and potent than I am even equipped to understand (being limited to sensory inputs in an extremely constrained four-dimensional spacetime continuum,) it would be the utter height of blasphemy to assume that I "knew" what the Divine "wanted" for anyone other than ME.

But I don't presume to state that my understanding of the Divine is the correct or the only one. The Hairy Thunderer invoked by the "God wants them dead" crowd may be the real deal, after all. But that STILL doesn't justify murder, since by the very scriptures the Hairy Thunderer crown invokes, they shouldn't be messing around trying to usurp God's 'vengeance.' Their theology is so convoluted it doesn't take much to tie them up in a bowknot and leave them spluttering in a corner (but that's cruel, so we shouldn't indulge the impulse merely for the satisfaction of justifying our own views.) Nevertheless, it should be clear to anyone who can reason from b to c, as I'm assuming you can, that it's not the "message" but the "messenger" that is a good many bubbles off plumb.

I share your anger and indignation over the crimes perpetrated in the name of "God," but let's place the responsibility squarely where it BELONGS, shall we? On the perpetrators, not on the specious arguments they use to justify those crimes.

judiciously,
Bright

[TygrBright]

18. No, no, I was enquiring of the previous poster, Maat...

...you and I seem to be on similar wavelengths in many respects.

explanatorially,
Bright

[Maat]

23. I must have missed what you were inquiring about. (n/t)

[TygrBright]

24. That would be greyl's worries about whether...

..."Cosmic Muffin" (hey, better than "Hairy Thunderer," right?) represented an unseemly trivialization of the life-and-death nature of religion, is all.

helpfully,
Bright

[Maat]

25. Well, I don't believe it trivializes it one bit.

I thought I was sincerely giving a suggestion for a reply.

I don't think it matters how we identify the Divine (our particular label), and I just thought that one should sincerely respond to the idea that God wanted one dead. And, I did sincerely respond. I would tell the person that I knew that God didn't WANT me dead, that God probably wouldn't mind when one transitioned, and would respect the idea that I wanted to continue on in the present incarnation. It is simply inconceivable to me that Spirit would want anyone dead; Spirit believes in free will and supports each one of us unconditionally in our goals and lives, and supported us when we chose what body our soul would inhabit in the current. There are many paths to the One, as my Muslim brothers and sisters say. And I honor each. I reject the idea that one faith is superior to another, and hence I reject the idea that God wants anyone dead.

We must not be on the same wavelength, however, so I will bow out of this discussion.

Peace,

[TygrBright]

26. au contraire, I believe we are on very much the same wavelength, Maat....

... might just be I'm trying to type too late at night to be clear.

You said a lovely thing about the young person in your life using "Cosmic Muffin" to refer to the Divine, which resonated with me because I know the source, and love it. So I chuckled and wished you and your young friend well.

Then I read greyl's post which seemingly worried that referring to the Divine as 'Cosmic Muffin' might be somehow making light of the serious nature of religion and the 'life and death' matters it encompasses.

So I asked greyl whyever he/she thought God (or whatever term s/he wants to use) didn't have a sense of humor?

But it appeared right after a post of yours, so when you responded to me, I thought you misinterpreted my post as asking the question of you.

Which I wasn't.

So I tried to clarify. And confusticated things further, apparently.

I guess I'll put the Cosmic Muffin AND the Hairy Thunderer to bed, now, and myself, too.

meekly,
Bright

[Maat]

33. I get it!

Take care and peace!

I'm going to be gone on a trip for a few days - don't know how frequently I will be able to post! I'll be back Thursday night!

Blessings to you all!

[greyl]

36. Yeah, that was stupid of me. You're right.

I wish I could make that sub-thread vanish, now that my head is a bit more clear.

[saltpoint]

3. I'd ask the speaker how it is that he or she speaks for the Creator. /nt

[greyl]

38. Supply any arguments you've heard where someone asserts

that their faith is above reason and does not need to be defended to a non-believer.

[cssmall]

4. It's pretty easy actually.

Blink at them, smile and shake your head (non-agressive, and in fact, almost submissive body posturing in our culture) and say: "Boy, what I remember from what Jesus said is that he didn't want anyone to die without first knowing his witness. Ah well. . .since you know so much about a divine creator's motivations, could you please explain to me what my purpose was in the first place?"

[greyl]

39. Then they quote the Qur'an, and kill you. :)

002.191
YUSUFALI: And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.

PICKTHAL: And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.

SHAKIR: And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/002.qmt.html#002.191

[roguevalley]

5. ask them what god they are referring too because the Prince

of Peace, the Lord of the Beatitudes can't be the same one. Then kick them in the balls. :evilgrin:

[Maat]

9. I kind of like that 'kick them in the balls' part.

Ummm ... just kidding.

[Rageneau]

7. If God wants me dead, He 'll make me that way.

And if he wants me alive, as I am today against all odds, He'll keep me that way.

God doesn't need any help deciding who He wants dead. He has a mind of His own. Quite a good one.

[greyl]

10. Fine, but

you overhear somebody saying "I believe God wants "*" dead".

Is it okay to give them your opinion?
What would you say?

[Viva_La_Revolution]

12. tell them Satan has intercepted their message from God

and is playing a mean joke on them.

Then duck and cover cause their head is going to

[charlie]

16. God knows where I am

I'm still standing.

or

God wants us ALL dead. Don't buy any 100-year bonds.

or

I believe God thinks you're a dick. And he hates those shoes.

[stevietheman]

31. Reminds me of another retort...

"Name one human being who has escaped death"

[BattyDem]

19. "So instead of just killing me, he decided to discuss it with you first?"

:eyes:

[unblock]

22. "then why should i respect your beliefs??? go cheney yourself!"

honestly, i don't understand why people say sh*t like that. even if they DO believe it, why on earth SAY it???

[NMMNG]

27. " I don't believe in your God,

Or give a darn what you believe."

[roody]

29. God, Schmod.

[FM Arouet666]

28. Fucking necrophile

Lets see, this will be deleted in, wait for it..............:evilgrin:

[stevietheman]

30. "That's like saying the dust bunny under the bed wants me dead"

..."Now tell me something that has weight"

There's a saying I made up a while back to deal with people who say "You're going to hell" or the parent quote...

"When somebody tells you 'You're going to Hell,' they are attempting to exert a manipulative authority they cannot otherwise earn."

[raccoon]

42. A man I know was once told by an enlightened fundie genius

that he was going to Hell because he had long hair.

This was some years ago. I guess Hell is pretty full by now. :-)

[InaneAnanity]

32. "You are correct."

n/t

[roguevalley]

34. tell them to go first. :) Or, tell them that that is the

same philosophy as Osama bin Laden.

[varkam]

35. God as a Mafia Don

"I want him DEAD! I want his family DEAD! I want his house burned to the GROUND! I want to piss on his ASHES! YOU HEAR ME?!"

Man, if that's how God's gonna act, then I think someone needs a little time-out. I personally find more solace believing in a world that is purely material as opposed to being under that asshole's thumb for eternity.

[zonmoy]

40. god obviously doesn't want people dead too fast

since that deprives him of the worship he needs to feed on while making his puppets suffer or cause suffering as much as possible.

[greyl]

43. The point is that it's near impossible to argue with it.

If it's taboo to question someone's religious beliefs, if peaceful faith is above rational inquiry, then how can one expect to persuade an extremist's idea of "doing God's will" by appealling to their intellect?

It seems the best tack would be to "use their faith against them" a la trying to argue that they aren't a "real" Christian, Muslim, Hindu etc and maybe point to a contradictory passage from whatever holy book they like. I'm sure that there are examples of extremists who recant and choose to follow a more peaceful path, but why does that happen and is there a way to encourage it?
It's difficult enough to get explanations of moderate faith without being accused of being disrespectful. By the time someone (or a group) is a violent extremist, good luck.

[trotsky]

44. Ah, but if you point to a contradictory passage...

there's the old "even Satan can quote Scripture" canard they can inoculate themselves with.

As the old saying goes, you can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into.

[greyl]

45. Yep, exactly.

"you can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into"

That's a great old saying. :)

[Evoman]

46. Perfect response

If he wants me dead, why am I still alive? Pussy...scared of killing me.

Evoman

[raccoon]

47. It's a waste of time to argue with a fool. nt

[Desertrose]

48. uhh..if god wanted me dead then I'd be dead...

therefore since I am alive, this is an untrue statement.

Unless of course there is no god.
...or my lucky number isn't up yet.
...or he can't find me.
..or doesn't much care .
...or the angel of death would get pissed for a non-union member to be doing his job.
...or...or...or........

:evilgrin:

[greyl]

50. In my scenario, God doesn't necessarily want you dead, but

you are faced with someone who tells you "I believe God wants you dead".

I'm curious how people would address that pov.
I'm guessing most of us wouldn't react by saying "believe whatever you want, it's not my concern".

[Desertrose]

54. Like Ohio Blues, I'd probably laugh....

....if it was a friend or an aquaintance I'd try not to laugh in their face but would most likely say.... Well, if thats what you choose to believe you are free to do so, but I can't agree with your statement.

[believerinchrist]

49. John 10:10 --Christ's own words

"The thief cometh to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that THEY MIGHT HAVE LIFE, and that they might have it more abundantly (than loss, death, and destruction--added)."

God is in the business of giving life not taking it away!

[greyl]

51. They don't believe in Christ. Then what?

Or what if they decide to quote Jesus back to you? Then you'd be in big trouble.

"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." (Matthew 10:34)

"I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled? But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished! Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division." (Luke 12:49-51)

These words, by the way, come immediately after Jesus talked about beating slaves. (See Question 33)

But of course you wouldn't be posting on the internet if you followed this directive: "And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? . . . Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor; and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me." (Matthew 19:16-21. See also Luke 12:33)
http://www.ffrf.org/quiz/banswers.php

[believerinchrist]

55. Have you ever looked at the two sides of a coin...

They're completely different and yet one. In literary terms, we call two things that seemingly contradict each other yet are both true a paradox. The Bible is full of paradoxes. While Christ is called the Prince of peace, as you pointed out, he stated he came not to send peace, but a sword. Both are true--Christ did pay the price for our peace with God; however,we still have to deal with the force of evil and that is where the sword (the understanding we need from God) comes in.

Similarly, fire has two purposes--it purifies or it destroys. The fire Christ is talking about is the purifying fire. The baptism he was talking about was his death on the cross and he wanted to get it over with. And, the division he is talking about happens within the hearts of people as they deal with the inroads evil has in their lives.

Before I share my understanding of the verses about beating "slaves" (actually, he was talking about servants), it is important to understand that one of Christ's purpose was to bring to the Hebrew nation new concepts about God. First, he taught the fatherhood of God--the Hebrews saw God as the ultimate law-giver and judge. Second, he taught them what God desires to be the end result of their "religion." The Hebrews believed as long as they followed the letter of the law, they were where they needed to be. Jesus blew that concept to smitherins when he stated over and over that God expected them to love Him and to love their neighbors as themselves. When he was talking in these verses, he was explaining a parable about a steward (a "leader") who, instead of doing what his master asked him to, beat his fellow servants and generally goofed off. When the master returned, the servant was punished. Christ ended this explanation with saying to who much is given, much is required. In other words, if you want to work for God, you better treat people well.

And, yes, twice in my walk with God, I basically have sold what I had (which wasn't much--I've never been rich) and given to the poor (once when I was single and once when I was married with children). Both times, I followed where Christ led and learned much. Right now, I'm a teacher in a public high school--I was asked to take the job (I never applied for it). I have walked with God for over 35 years.

[greyl]

52. dupe

here's a picture that makes your eyes feel funny.

[LaurenG]

53. Well how rude! (not an argument, just a statement)

Which god and whose god. What rational person would think they knew for sure what God wants anyway? My best response would be a really hearty laugh.

[greyl]

56. I'll rush your strategy to Kofi Annan.

"What rational person would think they knew for sure what God wants anyway?"

?