Is "Born-Again" The Same Thing As "Being Saved"?

[arwalden]

Or is there some subtle difference between the two? How does this differ from just being a plain-old-Christian?

[tsuki]

1. I don't know. "I found Jesus" is the one that

really gets me. I never knew He was lost.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

45. ...

:rofl:

Thank you for that. I needed the laugh.

:thumbsup:

;)

[catnhatnh]

2. No...

....if I reheat a steak in the morning and serve it with eggs,it is "saved"....If I cut the steak up and serve it with mushrooms and sour cream it is either "born again" of "stroganoff"....

[CatholicEdHead]

3. In fundie-speak that synonym appears to be true

In more mainline theology, they are not equal. In fundie-speak it is that way so you can then do whatever you want and not feel guilty about it. You have no more responsiblities in this world. Jesus will apparently fix them all for you by a wave of some magic hand.

[SHRED]

4. Yes

They are both from a fairy tale, of which people believe in so strongly, they will spill the blood of others, to prove that they are right.

[stevedeshazer]

5. It's for those who weren't born right the first time?

:shrug:

[spindrifter]

6. Who knows?

It's all a matter of interpretation.

[LiberalPartisan]

7. Couldn't tell ya

I was baptized Catholic. We don't go in for the game show version - we're content with the real deal. But if one more Southern Baptist tells me I'm not a Christian because I worship Mary, or because I have not asked Jesus to be my personal Lord and Saviour (that line makes me want to puke!) I'm gonna go apeshit on their head.

[catnhatnh]

12. "THE REAL DEAL"

...so you guys are it,eh???

[LiberalPartisan]

15. In a word..

yup.

[Maddy McCall]

14. LOL

:thumbsup:

I was raised around Southern Baptists. Many are good folk, but some are just a little too filled with the holy spirit for me to be comfortable around them. Constant witnessing and proselytizing. Looking down on the Catholics, Jews, and other non-believers ;-). Oh yeah, they are trained at an early age to be confrontational with non-protestants, even Methodists.

:hi:

[catnhatnh]

16. Love you Girl....

Also was raised both catholic and minority..of course as an old cynic the Beatle lyric about "Times of trouble"resonates more than past dogma....But I wonder how non-christians take this?

[htuttle]

19. That 'Personal Lord and Saviour' phrase...

...always reminds me of something out of an infomercial. It's marketing-speak.

"You can have your very own PERSONAL Lord and Saviour for the low price of just $19.95 a month, AND we'll throw in this set of indestructable steak knives for free."

[Maddy McCall]

8. Yes. It's the same thing.

To "accept Christ as your savior" is the process by which you are saved, baptised, and then "born again" through the process of baptism into a sin-free life.

[ChazII]

10. One does not

have to be baptised in order to be saved. It is an outward sign of the faith -- at least that is what my friends tell me.

[Maddy McCall]

11. The Baptist baptism ritual goes like this...

"You are buried with Christ in baptism (as you are dunked) and raised to walk in the newness of life ("Born again as you are lifted out of the water)."

You can be "saved" by professing faith, but you can't be "born again" unless you are baptised, according to the one division of Christianity that draws its name from the very word.

[ChazII]

9. and the reason

any of this matters is??? From my understanding though, once you accept Jesus, you are born again and hence your are saved. AT least that is what I have learned from other sites.

[Maddy McCall]

13. Uh, it's a religion/theology forum. People talk about this stuff in here.

You can "welcome God into your heart" privately, sure. But most Baptist sects expect you to do the public baptism ordeal, which entails publicly professing your faith and then being publicly baptised, before you can enter their fold.

You can't be a bona fide church member in most Baptist churches unless you do the public profession and public baptism.

[catnhatnh]

18. God is welcome....

...into my heart.I think my liver and lungs could use some attention also...While He's at it may he heal the following...Protect my brain Lord from the plaque that robs my Dad's memories...Watch carefully those veins and arteries that inform my brain...move down my body Lord...The bones thruout my thoracic cage are mostly cool....My lungs have been fried by cigarettes,and my liver by booze, but that should not be a problem for you Lord...Other than that I have a couple small arguments with high BP and gout....The spinal degenerative disease you say I have REALLY sucks...So here is my solution-and it's only fair Lord-Make me 20 again-a Bull with my past strength and moves...This I pray...

[napi21]

17. That answer seems to differ between different people.

One of my cousins and her husband describe it as having ignored faith of any kind for a period of time, and some event changes that, and "they are born again" into a new religious awareness. In their case it was very serious health problems, and her husband had an organ transplant and also lost his sight. It seems a lot of religious beliefs awaken when people are staring death in the eye.

[Kennicott]

20. Yep

Back to the original question. Yep, “Born Again” is supposed to be salvation. At least from the standpoint of most fundamentalists. This originates out of their Biblical distortions. In this particular case, wild ass assumptions, primarily from verses in John 3, are embellished. Matter of fact, fundamentalists and many evangelicals don’t believe others to be Christian unless they are “born again” in accordance with their particular cult theology(s). Baptism isn’t usually part of their formula, however. Likewise, Catholics don’t believe others to be Christian unless they are baptized and worship in accord with Catholic dogma. Is a little baby born into sin, absolutely say the Catholics and many other so called believers in the Jesus of Nazareth. Wasn’t until St. Augustine invented original sin about 400 years into Christendom that this sin stuff started though. What we have today, all over the place, is so-called Christians pointing at other so-called Christians claiming each isn’t a Christian. This goes on and on. Go figure. :shrug:

[beam me up scottie]

21. ARWALDEN'S BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACK !!!

I have missed you SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much !!!

[MercutioATC]

22. Dunno. I was born O.K. the first time.

...never saw a reason to go through it again.

[greyl]

23. I'd say yes.

The persons claiming to be born again, saved, enlightened or whatever have different ways of saying it, but they're all describing the same essential posture toward the world.

[f-bush]

24. In the mainline churches ie

Roman Catholic, Lutheran, Episcopal, Methodist...one is born again when one is baptized. One may find an awaking of that rebirth through an acknowledgment of Christ as personal Savior and Lord or give testament in a formal manner of that Baptismal covenant at Confirmation.

[Redbear]

25. I feel there is a subtle difference.

Repenting of your sins and accepting God "saves" you from your former life.

Since that life is no longer there, you need a new life. You are "born again" and begin your new life as a believer.

Being "born again" is not all that strange a concept, people are born again in other contexts all the time.

examples: The alcoholic who switches to a life of sobriety. The top of the ladder exec who dumps it all for a simpler life.

[Goblinmonger]

26. Being raised a catholic

I had responses much like those above. I have traveled the long, enjoyable journey to atheism so my reaction is different now.

But I still have a lingering question from those catholic days. If someone is born again, and then turns into a giant, sinning prick (I know, never has there been a born-again christian that is a prick), what happens? Does the chruch just say that they were never really "born again" since the turned into a prick or do they need to be "born yet again," and again, and again, ...? I know this sound sardonic, and to some extent it is, but, really, what does happen?

[Redbear]

32. As I understand it, there are two theories.

Assuming the person really intended to start a new life and was born again.

Theory One: Everyone sins and as long as the person does not totally renounce God he or she remains a Christian. No need to be born again.

Theory Two: Christians are "born again" every time they acknowledge their sins, repent, and seek to do better.

As for your statement:

"I know, never has there been a born-again christian that is a prick."

The problem is many churches preach that if you are not one (condemning gays and lesbians, other religions, etc.) you are not really a christian.

[MemphisTiger]

27. yes, it's the same

[believerinchrist]

28. born again vs. saved

I'm new to this, so I think I should let you all know some of my background. Back in 1964 (when I was 13), I realized that "Jesus Christ died for my sins" and I "accepted" him. Since that time, I have found God to be faithful to me; early on, I asked Him to help me understand the Bible. The understanding I have accrued over the years is quite different from official church doctrines, but I think it can help answer your question.

First, the term "born again" originated with Jesus when he was talking to a Pharisee named Nicodemus--he stated one must be born from above in order to see and enter the kingdom of God. Basically, what he was stating is there has to be change on the inside of a human being before he or she can walk day in and day out with God. That change comes to pass as a result of faith (turning to God). I could give you a technical explanation of what actually happens, but for right now, just understand when a person realizes the depth of God's love for him or her and the absolute effectiveness of Christ's sacrifice to open the door for him or her to fully experience that love, he or she is born again.

Now, for understanding what being saved means--first, a person needs to be saved from something. Unfortunately, many Christians believe the something we're saved from--hell--comes after death, so they are taught to focus on going to heaven when they die and on unbelievers going to hell after they die. NOWHERE IN THE BIBLE DOES IT SAY THE WAGES OF SIN IS HELL! In fact, in the Garden of Eden, the curse of sin was physical death and the New Testament book of Romans verifies this punishment. Next, the Bible also says that today is the day of salvation and also that Christ will bring his salvation when he comes back to earth. This salvation is being saved from evil on a daily basis and it comes as a person loves and walks with God and loves his or her fellow human beings. When Christ returns, the kingdom of evil will be destroyed, deception will end, and every human being will have the opportunity to know and experience the love of God.

I am praying that one day soon, every human being will understand the absolute power of God's love. He is not in the business of judging people to punishment, but of opening people's eyes to see the evil in their own lives and to overcome it. I hope someday God will open the door for me to share my understanding in a book; meanwhile, I try to share the love of God with anyone I can. Let God bless you!

[trotsky]

29. Welcome to DU.

Your thoughts are appreciated, but I find your profile line a little insulting:

Jesus Christ paid the price to set the human race free from unbelief--with God's help we can overcome evil.

I'm a non-believer and I've found my life to be much more complete and happy since I grew out of Christianity. Why would anyone have to be "freed" from unbelief?

Can you accept that some people just simply will never believe in your god, yet we can still be moral and decent members of society that don't need to be converted?

[believerinchrist]

30. I'm sorry

I certainly did not mean to insult you. I don't have a problem with people not believing in my god and it is simply because that is between each person and god. What concerns me is that there is so much confusion in this world about god and his love, and people don't have the time to figure things out. The evil I'm talking about is not the morality of individuals (who am I to say what's moral or immoral?)--it's the destructive force that's rampant in this world. And being free from unbelief does not mean following a religious doctrine; it's having the choice to turn to God. There are many circumstances in this world that mind-boggling and extremely dangerous (as many postings here allude to). I have found over the years that hanging onto God in tremendous difficulties has helped me to not only survive, but to grow in love towards Him and my neighbors.

I also am not into converting people--again that's none of my business--and besides what does converting mean? No person knows the heart of any other person. My main thrust is to share my understanding of the Bible and God with those who are interested. I wanted to answer the question asked.

[InaneAnanity]

34. Read some Sam Harris

It's enlightening.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

46. Did he write "The End of Belief,"

or "The End of Faith," or "The Death of Faith," or whatever the hell it's called? Because I wanted to look into that some time....

:shrug:

Thanks in advance!

:hi:

[trotsky]

35. But I have no desire to "turn to God."

When I look at your god, I see a vindictive, petty, and nasty being. I see nothing worthy of worship in it. What little good philosophy comes out of the bible is more than countered by the accounts of bloodthirsty rampage & judgment.

I look at the problems of the world and don't see how more of the same (religion) is going to fix things.

I think it's time to move beyond religion.

[believerinchrist]

36. I am not talking about religion

but rather a relationship with someone whose love is more powerful than the evil in this world. And I am not equating evil with human beings. Many of the destructive forces in this world are outside human control.

I keep hearing people criticize the bible based on what they see "religion" doing without reading it for themselves. Over the years, I've come to realize it's a narrative covering a few thousand years and written by many different people. While many of the customs and cultural beliefs found in its pages are not "relevant" to our society, the progression of the understanding of God found there can be transposed to our current circumstances. Within the pages of the bible, we can find God's purpose and the help we need to make sense of a sometimes senseless world.

The bloodthirsty rampage and judgment in the bible took place before Christ came--at that time, the only way God could relate to the human race was through laws. When Christ came, that all changed. It's unfortunate that many "Christians" still cling to jugding people and pushing their rules down the throats of their neighbors. It's funny, but one of the passages many Christians use to bash the "evil people" of this earth continues with these words, "Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things." (Romans 2:1) Christ repeated over and over--"DO NOT JUDGE!"

The God I walk with is not vindictive, petty, or nasty; He knows exactly where each of us is and the battle that is against us. Through Christ, He holds out His arms to comfort and help us as we navigate this world. And, you know, if you don't desire to turn to God, that's fine--it's your choice and I honor that. I just want people to be aware that Christ paid a price, so all of us have the option of turning to God. And I believe that what Christ did by giving his life will ultimately defeat the force of evil in our world and good will prevail.

And I agree, it is time to move beyond religion!

[trotsky]

41. I have indeed read the bible for myself.

Cover to cover, at least a dozen times. Doing so was what made me realize that there was no way it could have been the product of, or even loosely guided by, a perfect and holy being.

Sorry, I will not accept your vindictive deity who punishes people for eternity for the simple crime of not being convinced.

[believerinchrist]

43. I do not believe in a vindictive deity who punishes people

for eternity. Listen, love is love, period. As I have searched the Bible for answers, I have found nothing but the grace and mercy God has for the human race. Anyone who believes God will send people to hell for eternity needs to understand the absolute power of the love of God and of the death and resurrection of Christ. Forget all the rules and regulations religion puts on people--this is about love and kindness. If what I understand is valid, then whether you're convinced or not doesn't change God's love. And, you have every right to be unconvinced.

Just know I am not trying to convert you--as I've said before in another post, this is a forum for ideas and I am sharing what I understand. I hope that I am not offending people but that I can enjoy the freedom to express what I have experienced.

One more comment about the Bible. I've come to look at it as an anthology of narratives (I'm a high school English teacher) that relate many different experiences with God. The words I really pay attention to are those of Christ--as I've read them carefully, I see the desire God has for people to understand Him and His ways. Religion doesn't get it--people are more important to God than rules are.

Just a "political" note--I consider myself a liberal and I have a biblical basis for this. Get a load of what I believe God thinks:

"The vile person shall no more be called liberal, nor the churl said to be bountiful.

For the vile person will speak villainy, and his heart will work iniquity, to practice hypocrisy, and to utter error against the Lord, to make empty the soul of the hungry, and he will cause the drink of the thirsty to fail.

The instruments also of the churl are evil: he deviseth wicked devices to destroy the poor with lying words, even when the needy speaketh right.

BUT THE LIBERAL DEVISETH LIBERAL THINGS; AND BY LIBERAL THINGS SHALL HE STAND (OR BE ESTABLISHED)."

Isaiah 32:5-8

I came across this passage during the 2000 campaign--I still like Al Gore.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

31. Difference between evangelical and mainstream churches

In the evangelical/fundamentalist churches, they don't baptize infants, only adults or children old enough to make their own decisions. Ideally, you're supposed to have a conversion experience that prompts you to seek baptism, but in practice in fundamentalist families, as I understand it, seeking baptism sometime in the early teens is the default option and not to do so is the rebellious option.

In the mainline Protestant, Catholic, and Eastern Orthodox churches, they baptize infants, and the personal acceptance phase is confirmation, which is also in the early teens. It used to be that you had to be confirmed to receive Communion. When I was growing up as a young Lutheran, we were confirmed one Sunday (at the end of ninth grade), had a big party that afternoon, and received our first Communion the following Sunday.

Now most Lutheran and Episcopal churches have Communion every Sunday, and children are allowed to receive, although some parents don't want their children taking the wine. Confirmation is more of a personal decision.

Among the Episcopalians, confirmation is performed by the local bishop. At the same ceremony, new adult members who have come from other denominations are received (if they were Catholic or Eastern Orthodox) or confirmed (if they have come from another Protestant background or non-Christian background) and other adult members can make what's called a "reaffirmation," if they've had some sort of conversion experience during the year.

These days, most mainline Protestants approach universalism in practice. That is, since Christ died for the sins of humanity, you're okay unless you deliberately choose evil. Being born again is more like making a commitment to follow a spiritual path.

[InaneAnanity]

33. Maybe I'm confused...

I always thought being "born again" was the term used to describe hymen re-attachment surgery.

[believerinchrist]

37. Christ used the words "born from above"

indicating a work that God does within us that enables us to receive understanding from Him that goes beyond the law. I'm sure there are many ways to be "born again" depending on the context of each situation.

[InaneAnanity]

38. I wasn't serious

I know what born again means. Crude, disgusting joke.

[believerinchrist]

39. But still a good point

Contest is important when we consider the feasibility of God.

[InaneAnanity]

40. I dunno about that

It's a question of common sense, I think.

[believerinchrist]

44. Yes, common sense and logic, too

By context, I mean every person is an individual with likes, dislikes, strengths, and weaknesses. It is within the context of individuals that God works--in other words, how the new birth comes forth in people is as individual as we each are. If we stop trying to force people into specific contexts created by our rules and regulations and just let God relate to them, this world would be a very different place. If God is truly who the Bible says He is, then He is more than capable to give His love to people. Let's let people be who they are and celebrate our differences. Let's get out of God's way!

Is that common sense?

[WoodrowFan]

42. yes

in general, yes, at least in the way the terms are popularily used. I am sure there's a difference theologically, but I haven't thought about the difference before.

Welcome back dude!!!!:bounce: