A theological question from a non-believer.

[Dave Reynolds]

My 4-day-old granddaughter will be removed from life-support tomorrow, at which time she will die. I have several questions.

I apologize in advance for the length of this. Emotional states make me uncharacteristically verbose.

First, I will describe my belief system, such as it is. I am one of the loonies that believes that yes, humans did evolve from more primitive beings. I also, strangely enough, think that the primordial forms of life were created by another intelligence. (Kind of a world-as-a-petrie-dish kind of thing). I do not worship. I think that good and evil resides in each of our beings, and that when we die our consciousness (life energy) creates the heaven or hell we think we deserve. This kind of follows a physical law about no energy being created or destroyed.

I live my life by simple rules: do not harm others, and treat others as I wish to be treated.

Does this make me a "secular humanist"? What would you fine people call me?

I have expressed these views before, and have been told that I most certainly have a boiling kettle awaiting me when I die.

What will my dear granddaughter have to look forward to tomorrow? She has not lived a life, and she has a lifetimes worth of consciousness that will be unrealized. There are times I wish I had all the answers, but I am having a hard time with this one.

Thank you in advance for not flaming my beliefs.

Dave

[seriousstan]

1. All innocents go to heaven and reside in eternal bliss.

I am sure this is what awaits your granddaughter.

[Dave Reynolds]

10. I hope so. Thank you. /nt

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

2. I'd simply call you a believer

with, perhaps, a mystical streak, especially if you have experienced That which creates all.

As to your grandchild-I believe that we are born in a state of grace, having come from the Source. This dear one will have touched life here on earth just for a moment before going back into the Love from which she came.

Salaam.

[Dave Reynolds]

12. Thank you for your reply.

She is so little and so frail, I whispered in her ear last night that while I was sorry that we would all miss her, she had a much better place to go and she should not be afraid.

[Dookus]

3. Dave

I'm so sorry. This must be devastating.

[Kerrytravelers]

7. To Dave

I am a Christian. However, I have a far more spiritual view of the world than a religious one. I believe that all religions reflect the culture they're from. Christianity reflects European culture, for example. All religions have a basic creation myth, a flood-type myth, a life beyond death myth, etc. So basically, being spiritual is being connected to people from all over the world. When I say a prayer with my rosery at mass, it's to the same spiritual connection as the Buddist Monk down the street from me. I see a world view with a spiritual connection. Having faith to me means seeing that the world and the human experience is bigger than me. For me, the rosery works, for others, there is a different spiritual connection that makes them feel closer to the world.

I hadly see you as a non-believer. You believe in something. Your spiritual connection to the world comes in a more mystical form, as stated by another DU poster. But that in no way diminishes your spiritual connection, regardless of what "Christian" may have spat at you in the past. (I assume it's a Christian, we're famous for that. And by the very term, non-believer, I often assume non-believer in Christianity as it is practived here.)

In regards to your little grandaughter, innocence can only have an innocent spiritual connection to the rest of us. There is no boiling pot, not hell fires waiting. She'll be in an eternal place of peace and happiness, watching over you. I might call it Heaven, someone else may call it something else. It's not the name that matters, it's the connection. A rose by any other name would smell just as sweet.

I am so sorry for your loss. I know what the loss of a child can do, not from a personal place, but from friends who have lost. I have been a support system and I know how devestating this will be.

Please accept my thoughts and know that I will be saying a prayer for your family tonight.

Peace be with you,

Terri

[Dave Reynolds]

13. Thank you.

Grandma is especially in rough shape.

[Dookus]

19. I'm sure she is

it's hard to imagine a more painful scenario. I have no words of wisdom, and certainly no answers to your question that would be helpful at this point.

You and your family will be in my thoughts.

[BamaLefty]

4. Age Of Accountability

First of all, I want to express deep sympathy to you and your family on the loss of your loved one. I know what it feels like to lose a family member, and I'll be praying for you man.

About her: I don't believe that she has reached the "age of accountability" yet. In that, at 4 years of age, she may know the differences between right and wrong, but has never had the chance to apply them in her life.

As a Christian, I believe that your granddaughter will go be with God tommorow. You may disagree, but I believe that God not only has a special place for her, but he has a special place for all of us as well. I also wish that you would just consider getting your life straight with God tonight, and enjoy being with your granddaughter for these last couple of hours.

May God bless you and your family.

-- BamaLefty :)

[Dookus]

14. self-delete

this isn't the right thread to get into this fight.

[Dave Reynolds]

15. Thank you.

I do not know where she will go, but I hope it is a place where she will not be in pain any more.

[KC21304]

5. I 'm very sorry for what you and your family are going through.

I can't give you any answers to your questions because after living almost 62 years as a Catholic, I am not sure myself what we will find after we die. I discounted the hell option long ago. Now I am working on the Heaven one. Peace to you and your family.

[Ian David]

6. You have my sympathy. My thoughts and condolences are with you.

I personally am a Secular Humanist, and I have to say that a moment like yours is not the right time to share a Humanist view of mortality, especially when someone is having questions.

Find the strength and hope where ever you can, and then count the angels dancing on the heads of pins later.

Personally, I find the final chapter of Carl Sagan's "The Demon Haunted World" a sort of bitter-sweet look at an Atheists view of mortality.

Somewhere in these links must be an excerpt from the book:
http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&c2coff=1&q=%22Carl+Sagan%22+and+death+and+demon+haunted+world&btnG=Search

Hang in there.

Whatever happens, she'll be at peace.

[Dave Reynolds]

16. Thank you, I will check the link. /nt

[cornermouse]

8. I think she's going to be free in a way that we can't even imagine.

exploring a world that is beyond our comprehension.

There aren't any words that can lessen your loss, but I'm sorry.

[Dave Reynolds]

17. Thank you.

The sci-fi side of me wants to believe that she will be out exploring the universe free of physical discomfort.

[cornermouse]

24. Not sci fi.

I don't believe in the perennial God wants us to sit on a fluffy cloud in heaven singing theory. I think heaven is a "world", for lack of a better word, that we can't even imagine and I think it is ours to explore and enjoy.

[Dave Reynolds]

26. I would really like mine to be

a fishing cabin in Alaska, with all of my friends and family being able to drop in at a thought.

I really am a basket case, sorry for getting goofy.

[uppityperson]

9. Makes you a sensitive caring questioner

I do not know what awaits her or any of us, will find out eventually but will not know until then. I've wished my parents had raised me with strict beliefs sometimes, but realize that I won't know for sure until it happens. We create our own heavens and hell while we are alive on earth, and afterwards? Continue to wonder and question. I wish I had answers but can only say I am sorry for you as this must be more difficult to go through than anything I ever have.

[Dave Reynolds]

20. Thank you.

I am curious about the end of my life, as well. I realized a while ago that I have more years behind me than ahead of me. I am not afraid to go, I just have a sort of feeling of suspense.

[Smarmie Doofus]

11. Truly sorry. What a painful post.....

I don't know what faces your granddaughter. We can't know what we can't know.

Truth is, we don't know. Believe in heaven if it's a comfort.

I like to see death as an end to suffering.

Again... my condolences.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

18. What a horrible time for your family.

There are no words that will make the pain go away, but the two traditions that I am most familiar with, Christianity (the non-Calvinist variety) and Japanese Buddhism, both promise some sort of happy continued existence in another dimension for children who die.

In Christianity, they are received by Christ, and in Japanese Buddhism, they are guided into paradise by the bodhisattva Jizo.

As I implied flippantly in another thread, no one really knows what happens to us after death. However, the longer I live and the more I travel, the more I am convinced that no one will get "a boiling kettle" simply for not holding specific beliefs. God is bigger than that.

[Dave Reynolds]

23. Thank you.

My in-laws are fundamentalist "born-again" Christians who made the boiling kettle remark. Those people are so full of negativity and mean-spiritedness.

I had a discussion with my father-in-law last week that ended with my saying that if heaven were full of people like him, I would certainly prefer somewhere else.

I am on the "bad guy" list now.

[NEOBuckeye]

32. I'm so sorry about your granddaughter, Dave.

You know, it really annoys me to see so many often loudly, self-proclaimed "Christians" capitalizing on the misfortune of a loved one to proselytize and preach "fire and brimstone" when and where they simply ought to be offering words of sympathy and comfort. Too many of them are actually in no place themselves to judge anyone else.

I definitely agree with the earlier posters who said that your granddaughter is going to a far better place. As one who identifies with the more liberal end of Christianity, I generally believe that place to be Heaven, but I'm sure that there are many names among many different peoples -- even those living on other planets countless light-years away -- for a place totally unfathomable to the human mind on this plane of existence.

None of us knows what exactly God is thinking, and I seriously question the sanity of anyone who does claim to know. But I do see His hand in our world, every time I look at the Periodic Table of Elements, for instance. That alone tells me that none of "this" existence that we know of is by chance.

Given that I believe in a Greater Power and a higher order of things, I also believe that you will see your granddaughter again someday. You and your family are in my thoughts and prayers.

[supernova]

21. So sorry for your loss, Dave

:hug: I believe your granddaughter is indeed returning to God. She has need of her there, for some reason, though, sadly, we cannot know what. Perhaps there is greater need of her elswhere, or to save her from a worse tragedy later in this life. We just don't know.

Do know that you and your family are loved by The One.

You will be in my thoughts.

[NAO]

22. One way of looking at the cycles of life and death

I am sorry to hear the news about your granddaughter. I am sorry for the sorrow it must be causing your family.

It is hard to talk of ultimate things without sounding trite or without resorting to parroting the dogmas of conventional religions. There are a few passages that have been meaningful to me that I will quote.

***

The one that has meant the most to me is this piece by Alister Crowley, from his book LIBER CL: De Lege Libellum:

SYSTOLE AND DIASTOLE: these are the phases of all component things. Of such also is the life of man. Its curve arises from the latency of the fertilized ovum, say you, to a zenith whence it declines to the nullity of death? Rightly considered, this is not wholly truth. The life of man is but one segment of a serpentine curve which reaches out to infinity, and its zeros but mark the changes from the plus to minus, and minus to plus, coefficients of its equation. It is for this cause, among many others, that wise men in old time chose the Serpent as the Hieroglyph of Life.

Life then is indestructible as all else is. All destruction and construction are changes in the nature of Love, as I have written to you in the former chapter proximate. Yet even as the blood in one pulse-throb of the wrist is not the same blood as that in the next, so individuality is in part destroyed as each life passeth; nay, even with each thought.

What then maketh man, if he dieth and is reborn a changeling with each breath? This: the consciousness of continuity given by memory, the conception of his Self as something whose existence, far from being threatened by these changes, is in verity assured by them. Let then the aspirant to the sacred Wisdom consider his Self no more as one segment of the Serpent, but as the whole. Let him extend his consciousness to regard both birth and death as incidents trivial as systole and diastole of the heart itself, and necessary as they to its function.

[Tamyrlin79]

25. Do not forget reincarnation...

The soul/consciousness who was your granddaughter may be reborn in the future.

[Warpy]

27. Dave, I'm very sorry for your family's loss

All deaths are hard to take, and the death of a child seems especially cruel.

However, your philosophy is the Golden Rule, which makes you a Christian who hasn't accepted the Jesus myth. There are worse things to be.

As for what your granddaghter has to look forward to, the least of it is an end to whatever pain her body is still capable of feeling. At most, the nature of the universe to conserve energy may mean that part of her beyond the merely physical may continue, either intact or recycled into other life. We just don't know.

What we do know from smashing "matter" into smaller and smaller components is that even this solid, physical "stuff" is really bits of energy spinning in different directions along dimensions we're unable to perceive with our limited senses, held together by lines of force.

People who have survived near death experiences all have very similar stories, although they may be interpreted along whatever religious lines they may follow, that there is a sensation a floating, a bright light, and the appearance of everyone they've ever known, all made out of the same light.

This would seem to go right along with the subatomic physics of the universe that says all matter is really spinning energy. Perhaps "spirit" is just another type of spinning energy.

Whatever happens, I find the mean old man on the cloud who wants to send even four year olds to hell to be about as likely as pure materialism and a totally mechanical universe.

I don't know if this bit of blather helps. Once again, I'm very sorry for your loss. My thoughts will be with you.

[Stunster]

28. I hope you find peace

In the gospel of John (chapter 14: 1-3), Jesus says:


"Do not let your hearts be troubled. You have faith in God; have faith also in me. In my Father's house there are many dwelling places. If there were not, would I have told you that I am going to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back again and take you to myself, so that where I am you also may be."

I believe your grand-daughter is going to one of those 'many dwelling places'.

I knew a grandmother once who suddenly lost two of her grand-children. For two weeks she was inconsolable. Then God granted her a vision of her grand-children, entering heaven. Those kids were 5 and 6 years of age. The grandmother, after being a complete wreck, suddenly found great joy and peace, and became a woman transformed.

That would be remarkable under any circumstances. But what especially impressed me about the grandmother's transformation was that it occurred despite the fact that those children had been strangled by their mother--the grandmother's own daughter.

[checks-n-balances]

29. Hearts break for you and your family, Dave...

I'm sure you have already met people who have reached out to you with this view.

This is not an "answer", but just some of my beliefs...

There is a theological belief called God's "Providence". My viewpoint on that is kind of unconventional, but I take from the scriptures that we need to live our lives with the belief that, ultimately, God will take care of us. If God's love is stronger than even the most caring and unselfish human love, then that is great enough to take care of us no matter what.

I don't believe that a loving God abandons us, even after we die. The Parable of the Lost Sheep, Lost Coin and the Lost Son (the "Prodigal Son") contain the message that God never abandons us, even when we are unfaithful. I've been taught that this is the pervasive message of the Bible.

If you love and would do anything for one of your children and grandchildren, the probability is that a loving God would do the same. Even though we aren't spared from tragedies and heartbreaking pain, I really and truly believe that God is with us, God cries and grieves with us, and that God takes care of us in the end.

I hope that helps, although at this time I know there is little comfort to be found in words. So sorry for your unspeakable loss.

[TreasonousBastard]

30. I would simply call you a seeker...

and you are asking the questions everyone has been asking since we first became a sentient species.

Even for the most faithful, there are no words or beliefs that can ease the pain and grief of losing a child. It's simply to much for any of us. We ask why the merciful and loving God we worship would allow this tragedy to happen. We demand to know, and we sometimes rage at God.

The answer, ultimately, is within ourselves. Perhaps our religion gives us some additional strength, perhaps we find it elsewhere, but we find that our lives are to be lived here on earth, and whatever the next step is, it is most likely a better place but one we are not allowed to know yet.

Tomorrow, your granddaughter will not be suffering or in pain, but you and your family will be in great pain. Wherever she is, it will be a blessed place, but you will be left in this "vail of tears." It is for the living that you will find the strength to carry on.


For what it's worth, long before I was born my grandfather died and my grandmother was told by a priest exactly how many years he would suffer in purgatory for not going to mass, and she should start going more herself. That announcement drove my grandmother and father out of the Catholic church for good, but they still retained some faith in a less vindictive God.

Ignore, if possible, any talk of eternal parboiling and, while seeking, remember that any God worth worshipping would only look kindly on an innocent child or seeker. No one gets condemned for asking honest questions.

[murray hill farm]

31. You grandaughter is so lucky to have you now!

And your belief is a beautiful thing to hear. WE ..on earth..as human beings are limited to what we can know by the human senses that we have as humans..all we can know of what is life..we can only know if experienced by our limited senses. Many tend to believe that if it cannot be experienced by our limited senses, then it must not exist..which is always amusing to me. Dogs do not experience color..so, for example..if were able to reason and communicate with dogs and would try to explain to them that color existed, the would never believe it..since their senses are limited to seeing only black and white. I believe...and i know that you believe..that there is, of course, much more in existance that we limited humans and our bodies can know...and that your grandaughter will soon move on the wings of your love..to that new place of being. My thoughts are with you and your family.

[China_cat]

33. For your grand-daughter

Do not stand at my grave and weep,
I am not there, I do not sleep.

I am a thousand winds that blow.
I am the diamond glint on snow.
I am the sunlight on ripened grain.
I am the gentle autumn rain.

When you wake in the morning hush,
I am the swift, uplifting rush
Of quiet birds in circling flight.
I am the soft starlight at night.

Do not stand at my grave and weep.
I am not there, I do not sleep.
Do not stand at my grave and cry.
I am not there, I did not die!

Mary Frye (1932)

[Lexingtonian]

34. Sorry to hear of it

I used to spend significant time around the NICU at the hospital I worked at. It's all a frail beauty and all about the potential to each little being, an ongoing struggle of the heart.

She lives on with you and all who have known her.
She has done all she could, with more hopefulness than anyone else could have. She has served to remind you, and from you us, of what we are and are not, and to keep the Dream about humankind we all hold somewhere in our hearts alive.
Those highest wonders of living you think missed, they are not much within the world- they pass through it and beyond. Surely to places of which she has more sense than we do here.

You have my greatest sympathies.

May you find the mercy within you that will carry you onward.

[aneerkoinos]

35. There is no death

The aggregates of cause-and-effect chains that formed that fellow sentient being will not cease. Her conscience and the perks of her personality will continue in some form or other, in future sentient beings. Her material aspect will be recycled by life. Only thing in human life that really dies is the ego, which is constructed by becoming afraid of one's own end, end of fear, and at her young age ego is not yet fully developed, therefore she knows not fear of death, there no death for her.


May all beings everywhere plagued
with sufferings of body and mind
quickly be freed from their illnesses.
May those frightened cease to be afraid,
and may those bound be free.
May the powerless find power,
and may people think of befriending
one another.
May those who find themselves in trackless,
fearful wilderness---
the children, the age, the unprotected--
be guarded by beneficial celestials,
and may they swiftly attain Buddhahood

[indigobusiness]

46. Nicely put.

You never cease to amaze me.

[Dave Reynolds]

36. An update

Grace Nicole, born 1-21-05 left this existance while in the arms of her father at 7:55 p.m. eastern time.

Thank you all for your thoughts and prayers. They are appreciated greatly.

[Dookus]

38. Again

I'm so sorry.

[China_cat]

39. Goodbye Grace Nicole

You were obviously loved.

[RUDUing2]

42. Prayer for Grace Nicole

Lord, you said, "Let the little children come to me." To you I entrust (Grace Nicole) who has left us. she was but a child and so precious in your sight. You, Lord Jesus, became a little child for our sake. You welcomed children and promised that the kingdom would be theirs. Take (Grace Nicole) into your arms and lead her into heaven where there will be no more tears, no more suffering, no more pain. Grant her the fullness of joy and eternal peace. You know the burden of our grief over the death of (Grace Nicole). One day unite us again. Amen.

May (Grace Nicole) be held in God's loving embrace now and forever: Lord Jesus, I turn to you with trust.
May her family be consoled in their grief: Lord Jesus, I turn to you with trust.

Lord Jesus, I entrust (Grace Nicole) into your hands, trusting that you even now embrace her in your love. Welcome her into heaven together with all children who have died. May we know your saving peace. Amen.

[renaldo]

37. There is a book

that describes something similar to your beliefs called the Urantia Book. I highly recommend it as it reconciles science and religion.

I am so sorry about your grandchild.

[MemphisTiger]

40. My thoughts and prayers are with you and your family

I believe that God will reach his arms out for your daughter. I've always believed that there is a special place in Heaven for children. Here is a link and excerpt that is more eloquent than me.

Now, in the New Testament (NT), Jesus said, "Suffer the little children to come unto me." Remember when the disciples said, "Send the kids away. You know this is an adult operation." And Jesus said, "No, no, you allow those little children to come unto me, for of such is..." what? "The kingdom of heaven." I think Jesus affirms what David knew in his heart, that when a little child dies, that little child is taken into the arms of God. Now, after that period of time when they reach the point of having to make their own decision, I think it becomes a different issue.

http://www.biblebb.com/files/macqa/1301-N-10.htm

[RUDUing2]

41. she is one of Gods children. When she leaves this life

I believe the angel will take her in their arms and hold her close and take her home to God.

As a catholic I don't know who will go to heaven or hell..only God can know that. I trust that God in His infinate Goodness, Love and Justness will assign to each what they deserve, not based on the ways or eyes of men, but based on the Justness of God. As a human I would say Pope John Paul II will be in heaven and Adolf Hitler will be in hell...but I can't see into the souls of either..only God is and so only God knows.

[More Than A Feeling]

43. No judgments, just prayer

I am so sorry for your loss.

[struggle4progress]

44. The Abrahamic faiths all begin at the moment that Abram offers hospitality

to three strangers, a respite from their journey across the desert in the midday heat. Note he simply provides food and drink and rest; they do not stay long. And yet the event is remembered as a visit from G-d.

I am so sorry to hear about your granddaughter. Our journey through the wilderness can be rough. But the complete truth of the universe is simply: love alone really counts. The one significant act, which anyone is able to perform, is to love: no matter how futile it might sometimes seem, it is infinitely better than a gift of water to a stranger in the desert, and it is actually eternal.

[indigobusiness]

45. I'd say you are non-religiously spiritual.

You have left the door cracked on your spiritual potential, but the threshold only becons...it does not compell. You are like most of us: a dweller at the threshold. You can find answers to your questions if you really want them.

So sorry for your loss. Grieve well to know that all is well.

----


A Texas professor searches for the human soul

"I think death is an illusion. I think death is a really nasty bad lie. I don't see any truth in the word death at all."

http://www.dallasobserver.com/issues/2004-12-16/news/news.html

[sam sarrha]

47. only one thing is certain, death will take us all, only the moment of

death is uncertain for each of us...

as a believer in reincarnation.. there are two most unfortunate events, an unfortunate death, and an unfortunate rebirth. the rest we give a little direction to.

the why of such things is beyond our perceptual abilities.

sometimes there is just no why.. at all

all we can do is pray for the dead and comfort the living with compassion.

my regrets are with you and your family..

[Az]

48. Usually

We do not know the time of our death unless we choose to appoint the time ourselves.

It is worth noting that belief systems that advocate a life after death scnario inevitably incorporate a strong policy against suicide in their doctrine.

[Tux]

49. That is sad

Sorry about what happened to your granddaughter.

As a Buddhist, I do believe in reincarnation. She could be reborn and start a new life and fulfill her potential. It's sad she had a rough start in this life and I hope her next is better. From the concerns you have, she may not remember you but the impression of love you gave would stay with her. It may influence her as well. I really hope you get to meet her in her new incarnation.