Hall of fame/ Michael Irvin

[TZ]

Someone explain to me how that obnoxious cokehead jackass Michael Irvin gets into the Hall of Fame but Art Monk does not. Hello he had Troi Aikman to throw to him. I don't recall him setting a lot of records. Art Monk had how many different QB's throwing to him. Not usually a conspiracy type person but this definitely seems like he got in because he was a memeber of "America's Team". Yuck! And yes, I am a Skins fan and hate the Cowboys. But come on this is truly nauseating if you are a football fan, in my opinion.:grr:

[trumad]

1. I am a Skins fan and hate the Cowboys. which explainds your small rant.

Warfield had Griese throw to him....

Jerry Rice had Montana

Swann had Bradshaw

and on and on and on... Most all great receivers had great QB's throwing the ball to them.

Now I agree that Monk should be in.... he was awesome... BUT I also think Irving should be in as well...

And who gives a fuck about his personal problems off the field.

[TZ]

3. Monk's number's are way better

Irvin was also one of the taller WR at that time. He was basically in the perfect situation. Art Monk did waaaay more with waay less. I DO care about character too (don't want to see Pete Rose or Barry Bonds or Mcgwire in baseball HOF but thats a whole other issue). I have no issue with anyone else you listed or Emmitt Smith or Troy Aikman (both of whom I like actually despite being Cowboys). It really also irks me that it happened because Irvin is a very look at me look at how great I am kind of guy (who probably campaigned) and Art Monk (and I got to meet him briefly once) is a very quiet down to earth guy. Sorry, another rant but this really pissed me off in a way usually only * does and this is a good place to rant in my opinion.:rant:

[trumad]

8. So Lawrence Taylor shouldn't be in the Hall?

Possibly the best linebacker of all time? Oh---and when he snapped big mouth Theismans femur---I'd rate that one of the best plays of all time.

[TZ]

21. he has ligit numbers.

I don't think the coke helped him nor did he rely on a true HOF to get his numbers. Can't say I like it but he is qualified

[trumad]

29. But you're contradicting yourself...

If character doesn't matter--- then why bring it up regarding Irvin?

[Captain Hilts]

12. How many quarterbacks and offensive coordinators did Monk play for?

A LOT.

[fishwax]

16. Monk's numbers are hardly "way better"

He had about 1500 yards and three touchdowns more than Irvin--that's hardly way better, particularly considering Monk played 65 more games than Irvin did. Art Monk played at a high level for a long time, but Irvin was great in his prime--Out of 10 seasons where he played more than 10 games, Irvin had over 1000 yards in seven.

I don't like Irvin, and I hate the Cowboys, but Irvin deserves a spot in the Hall.

Art Monk deserves a spot too. I agree with you there.

[BulletproofLandshark]

2. Yeah, it's a joke for sure.

"Dr." Z and all of his know-nothing cohorts that voted against Art Monk can just suck on it.

[VelmaD]

4. Most Cowboy fans would disagree that...

Cowboys players get in because they played for the Cowboys. Actually many would argue the opposite...that there are many fine former Cowboys who are not in the Hall simply because they were Cowboys...that there is a voter bias against them.

I honestly don't see it one way or the other. Yes, I think there are some former Cowboys who should be in the Hall...Bullet Bob Hayes springs immediately to mind. But there are really good players from a lot of teams who should be in it. The voters are idiots sometimes.

BTW...I agree with you completely that Art Monk should be in the Hall.

[Bluzmann57]

5. One thing Irvin did better than anyone else

He was the master of the push off. And he rarely got called for it.

[Phredicles]

25. Exactly. The pro-Monk camp ignores Irvin's truly pioneering

achievements in the field of getting away with offensive pass interference. Plus, Monk had the unfair adavantage of an off the field life that wasn't a highly publicized, out of control circus of cocaine and hookers. And on the field, I don't remember Monk in his whole long career acting like a complete jackass in front of everybody. My point is, Irvin and not Monk is the prototype for today's big-name WR, and that's why he's the one getting into the Hall of Fame.:P:evilgrin:

[smtpgirl]

31. I thing you are confusing Monk with Irvin

Monk was never arrested for drugs. In fact I know he has football camps and a foundation for kids that can't afford to play football, right here local in the DC area.

Does Irvin have that?

[Bluzmann57]

35. One more thing

Sterling Sharpe was better than either Irvin or Monk but his career ended prematurely because of a stinger in his spinal area. He chose to be able to walk and play with his children rather than play in the rough world of the NFL and risk paralysis.

[MrSlayer]

6. The king of the push-off.

Irvin had skills but he was also a cheating bastard who never got flagged. Even during all these years of suckiness the Cowboys still get all the calls. I agree with you 100% on Monk.

[Poiuyt]

7. And Monk played in the days before the 5 yd rule

DBs were manhandling him all the way down the field

[Captain Hilts]

11. Charlie Taylor got bumped the whole way down the field, as did Don Maynard, etc. nt

[Awsi Dooger]

9. You guys are way off on Art Monk

He was a glorified possession receiver. Those guys don't make the Hall of Fame and don't deserve to. Dr. Z and company are absolutely correct in excluding him. I posted some of the relevant numbers in the Art Monk thread on this forum but I'll amplify here.

There are the recent Hall of Fame receivers, the ones who played during Monk's era or slightly later, and their career yards per catch:

Lynn Swann: 16.3
John Stallworth: 16.2
Charlie Joiner: 16.2
Steve Largent: 16.0
Michael irvin: 15.9
James Lofton: 18.3

Obviously Jerry Rice will make it. His lifetime number is 14.8, but that's due to staying too long at the fair. He played 20 years and after 1998 his yards per reception really declined, eventually dragging down the lifetime mark.

Now, Art Monk: 13.5

That's not even in the same ballpark. And you can't use the longevity excuse to drag down Monk's average. He only had two full seasons in his entire career in which he managed 15 yards per completion or better. I post the quarterback yards per attempt numbers frequently because that's a major evaluation point, even though the mainstream media ignorantly never mentions it. Same thing, to a lesser degree, with receivers and yards per catch. Monk's exclusion is more easily understood when you look at the yards per catch

I'd put Bob Hayes in the Hall before Art Monk. That was a different era, extremely run oriented, but Hayes terrorized defenses like Monk never threatened to do. Hayes averaged a phenomenal 20 yards per catch and had 5 seasons with at least 10 TD catches, a great ratio since he only caught 371 passes for his career. No doubt Hayes is being held back by being considered too one dimensional, a blazer, plus that NFL Films clip of him running pass patterns with his hands in his jersey during the Ice Bowl no doubt doesn't help.

[BulletproofLandshark]

13. If being a possession receiver is so damned easy

then why couldn't anyone stop him from getting first down after first down for so many years? And you'd put in a guy who didn't even get to 400 catches? Please. I guess you'd put Terrell Davis in the HOF too.

[Robeson]

17. If your whole thesis is based on YPC, that's pretty weak.

[trumad]

19. No---- but it's one of the top determining standards for a great receiver.

The OP is making it out that Monk is far better than Irvin which is not even close to being true.

[trumad]

20. I was waiting for you to jump in here.

I thought about pulling some stats but said Nah...Awsi will be along. :-)

[TZ]

22. Art Monk was less smaller and not as fast

as most of these guys. He was a lot like Largent in terms of never being the biggest or the best. I knpw the Dkins would not have been have as successful without him. He kind of reminds me of Cal Ripkin. Always there, always doing his job. Seriously he had some many different QB's and plays. He had to be one of the best route runners ever.

[BulletproofLandshark]

27. Art Monk is 6'3" and played at 210 lbs.

Even today, that's fairly big for a WR.

[Captain Hilts]

10. Monk didn't mouth off enough. nt

[smtpgirl]

14. What sucks is the NFL Hall of Fame

now has their "triplets" - Aikman, Smith & Michael "crackhead" Irvin

The Redskins has 1 - John Riggins

What about:
Ark Monk
Darryl Green
Dexter Manley
Joe Jacoby
Russ Grimm
Joe Theismann???????????????


Hall of Fame voters are so lame, secret voting, wonder how much they were paid?

[k_jerome]

15. Theisman HOF??? LMAO. nt.

[trumad]

18. Uh --- you just shot your sports credibility with your inclusion of Thesiman.

Plus you now owe me a new monitor --- Read Thesimans name---spit coffee--- Monitor shorted out.

Plus--- if you include Dexter Manley, then you're going against the Ops standards of judging an HOF for his off-field behavior.

[TZ]

23. I don't say you have to be an angel..

but you have to be qualified. Had Irvin played with any other team do you really think he would have had stats that were even close. First he was taller than most on the field. And he had a great QB, maybe the most accurate ever. Oh, plus the all time leading rusher in Emmitt Smith. A very athletic guy. But not one of the greatest. (unless the category is loudmouth self-centered bastard -second only to TO in that category)
FYI I don't think Dexter or Theismann should be HOF but I do think that many of the Hogs (Russ Grimm, Joe Jacoby, Jim Lachey) should be. Darrell Green will be as soon as eligible I think. Next year I think?

[trumad]

28. He's 6:2--- and so is Jerry Rice

You can ask that same question to any HOF receiver... would they have had the career if they didn't play for a certain team?

Hell--let's go QB. Would Montana have had the career he had if he didn't play for Walsh?

As far as comparing Mike to TO...Please... Irvin came to play every Sunday and if you read comments from his fellow teammates---he had a work ethic second to none. He stayed with one team and has 3 Super Bowl rings. Bad comparison.

Look---Like I said... I think Monk should be in--- but you're letting your Redskin bias interfere with simple football logic.

Again--- by your standard---should LT be in the Hall?

[smtpgirl]

33. There you go, there are more Redskins that you have listed that

should be in the Hall of Fame

[smtpgirl]

32. Dexter Manley redemmed himself, plus the man

had a brain tumor.

Either way, I am a Redskins fan from WAY back.

Oh I forgot one:

Mark Moseley, he held an NFL record for scoring the most points.

The Fun Bunch,
The Smurfs,
The Hogs

[Captain Hilts]

37. When they had that last game at RFK the loudest cheers were for Jurgensen, Riggins...

and Manley.

[TZ]

24. If their is any justice in this world..

a whole bunch of Skins fans will show up at his HOF ceremony and boo the hell out of him.:)

[Captain Hilts]

26. Darryl Green is one of the four greatest Redskins, EVER. Baugh, Jurgensen...nt

[k_jerome]

34. not only that...

one of the greatest to ever play that position.

[NoGOPZone]

43. Good reason why Green isn't in the HOF

He isn't eligible yet.

Monk should be in, and will eventually make it, I believe. I'm not convinced about the rest of the names on your list.

[BulletproofLandshark]

30. One thing the voters always bring up

is that Art Monk wasn't a guy opposing defenses had to gameplan for. Even if that were true, then who would they have to gameplan for? Lets take a look at his longtime teammate on the other side, Gary Clark, and compare him with Michael Irvin:

http://pro-football-reference.com/players/ClarGa00.htm
Clark 167 Games 699 rec. 10,856 yds., 15.5 YPC, 65 TDs

http://pro-football-reference.com/players/IrviMi00.htm
Irvin 159 Games 750 rec, 11,904 yds., 15.9 YPC, 65 TDs

Michael Irvin holds a slight edge in most categories, but IMO there's not enough of a difference to justify Gary Clark never even being a finalist. Clark was a decent postseason performer (58 rec. for 826 yds. and 6 TDs in 13 games, plus 2 Super Bowl rings) with per game averages comparable to HOFers like Swann and Stallworth.

I'm not saying Michael Irvin isn't HOF material, because he absolutely is. But I think if Gary Clark and Art Monk wore Cowboy or Steeler jerseys, they would've already been inducted years ago.

[Captain Hilts]

36. Clark ran those crossing patterns where you get hit, hard. He should be a candidate.

I see him around Bethesda periodically. He's in real estate now, I believe.

[smtpgirl]

38. I forgot about Gary Clark, there is another good receiver

But some say that the Redskins weren't a team when they won the Super Bowl when the strike was going on.

[Voltaire]

39. Michael Irvin shoud be in the Hall ONLY. . .

If they have added an additional wing for push-off artists. He was overrated and a cheater and I'm gonna say it....I am GLAD he broke his neck at my beloved VET. That's where he deserved to go out. Jerk.

[trumad]

40. You're glad he broke his neck?

Dude--you're a serious asshole.

[leeman67]

41. real classy comment there...

and coming from an Eagles' fan, I can't say I'm surprised. It is just a game. No reason to wish physical harm on someone. It's not like he's OJ. :eyes:

[TroubleMan]

42. Both Monk and Irving should be in. Both were great players.

I hate the Foreskins and the Cowgirls with a passion. Those are my two least favorite teams, but I'm not going to hate on a person just because he played on a team I don't like. They both deserve to be there.