Mayweather vs De La Hoya: "The World Awaits"

[H2O Man]

The May/June 2007 edition of Boxing Digest came in the mail today. The cover has De La Hoya and Mayweather facing off, with the words "The World Awaits." And, although their fight is still a month away, interest is building.

This fight will be of interest to more than boxing fans. It is, on paper, one of the biggest fights in recent history. It is going to make more money than anyone would have thought possible in the days of Sugar Ray Leonard, Thomas "Hit Man" Hearns, Roberto Duran, and Marvelous Marvin Hagler.

Who will win? A good case can be made for each warrior. Let’s look at both of them.

Oscar De La Hoya was perhaps the best fighter of the 1990s. He fought almost everyone. The guy has defeated 17 men who have held "titles," including many actual world champions. He was born in 1973; is 5’ 10 ½ " tall; and has a 73" reach.

Oscar has been selective in his fights since 2000. He fought twice in ’01; once in ’02; twice in ’03; twice in ’04; and once in ’06. He has lost 2 of his last 4 fights. And since being KOed by Bernard Hopkins’ body punching in ’04, his only fight was a TKO win over Ricardo Mayorga.

Floyd Mayweather Jr. Is perhaps the best fighter of this decade. He has willingly fought the best competition in each weight class, though not everyone has been interested in testing their skills against him. He was born in 1977; stands 5’ 8"; and has a 72" reach.

Floyd had three fights in ’01; two in ’02; two in ’03; one in ’04; three in ’05; and two in ’06. He not only won all of these fights, he has won almost every single round of every fight.

Boxing’s "experts" tend to pick Floyd to win the fight. He is younger, faster, does very well against people who are taller (think of his TKO over Diego Corrales), and many believe he is physically stronger than Oscar.

But Oscar has been in "super fights" before; he hasn’t taken a lot of punishment over the years; he is a highly intelligent fighter in the ring; he has a strong left hook that catches people coming inside on him; and he has Shane Mosley for a sparring partner.

Floyd’s "weaknesses" are hard to identify. He is not particularly popular, and at times has a chip on his shoulder. He is moving up in weight to fight a bigger man. No top fighter remains undefeated in their career. His chin has never been tested. His hands are fragile.

Oscar’s weaknesses are better known. He was ahead of Felix Trinidad in ’99, but lost the last few rounds because he was afraid to mix it up with Felix. He has trouble with smaller, fast guys who move side-to-side (think Mosley and Pernell Whitaker, who was "robbed" against Oscar). His last outstanding fight was in ’02, when he blasted Fernando Vargas into submission.

I read that Angelo Dundee predicts Oscar to win convincingly. Dundee feels that size and styles favors Oscar. Dundee is as smart of a boxing expert as there has ever been. Angelo thinks that Floyd will run into Oscar’s jab, and then the big left hook, when he tries to carry the fight to Oscar.

I admire and respect Dundee. But I think that the styles and ages favor the guy who has a lot in common with Angelo’s two best fighters. I think Floyd will probably win a 12-round decision. More, I think that it will be a relatively unexciting fight, that will disappoint the casual fans.

Most sports fans today want blood and gore, and do not appreciate a master boxer who understands "hit and don’t get hit." Willie Pep wouldn’t be a big PPV attraction After 12 rounds, the casual fans may feel that Oscar won, much as they thought Marvin beat Sugar Ray. But Floyd will win the decision, and he’ll retire …. For about 9 months.

Your opinion?

[rockymountaindem]

1. I don't know anything about boxing

but have you ever considered being a sportswriter? You'd be good at it.

[H2O Man]

2. Thanks.

I have articles in different papers from time to time. And years ago, I used to write from time to time for a couple boxing magazines.

[WilliamPitt]

4. You should know how much of a compliment you've paid him.

It is widely accepted as absolute fact that the sport of boxing is the single hardest sport to write about. You can see why. How to best describe, in an engaging way, two men trying to concuss each other into unconsciousness?

It's hard as all hell, and the best boxing writers also stand among the best sportswriters, period. The average boxing writers are practically unreadable. The great ones make the sport soar.

You've paid our H-man a very large, and absolutely deserved, compliment.

:toast:

[rockymountaindem]

8. I was just making a suggestion

Again, shows what I know :) I did like Cinderella Man, even though I'm sure they messed up most of the story (as movies do).

[H2O Man]

10. Cinderella Man ....

It was an outstanding movie. It was also a fairly accurate one, too. It was a favorite in my extended family, because my great uncle was friends with Jimmy Braddock. He was, at various times, one of his sparring partners. My great uncle used to fight out of the Nutley NJ area. It was a time when boxing and baseball were the two most popular sports in America; both had significant social impact.

My grandfather played baseball; his brother boxed. Of course, few people today would recognize his name, or the name of his opponents. But Uncle Pat beat Bucky Lawless, a man who had 22 fights against men who held world's titles.

Uncle Pat ended up moving to upstate New York. Braddock would come and stay with him for a while in 1937. Braddock had held the title for two years, without havinf defended it. (He did have one 3-round exhibition a month after defeating Max Baer.) Uncle Pat helped him with his early training. I am close to my second cousins, who remember the thrill of having the Heavyweight Champion living in their home. (Braddock was preparing to fight a young man named Joe Louis.)

This same great uncle would help turn a tough farm kid into one of the great boxing legends: Carmen Basilio. Now there's a guy who should have a movie made about him!

Anyhow, the only inaccurate thing in the movie was how they created a mean and vicious Max Baer. That was simply not true. Baer had all the tools to be one of the greatest fighters in history, except for the personality. He was 6' 2" and 220 lbs, a big guy in his day. And he hit hard, and did contribute to the deaths of two men. But he was a comic at all times, even in the ring. (My father told me that Max was joking around in the ambulance during his heart attack, and that his doctor felt this contributed to his death. His son, of course, became famous as "Jethro" on the Beverly Hillbillies.)

[rockymountaindem]

12. I did read about that

Baer's son was none too pleased about the portrayal of his father. I have to say that's one thing I don't admire about a lot of modern films; the "bad guy", real or imagined, has to be *really* bad. I started reading up about some of the people in Cinderella Man, and IIRC Baer won the title against Schmelling after Schmelling punched him in the groin and he couldn't go on, correct?

Although I don't have the chance to follow boxing much (maybe after I graduate college) I always perk up my ears when I hear about it and I always stop to watch a fight if it's on while I'm channel surfing. I guess I'm drawn to boxing for the same reason I love pro tennis. In both sports the competitors are out there on their own, with no teammates to fall back upon or to help disguise their weaknesses. It really seperates the champions from the wanna-bes. Both sports also seem to be more personality-driven, in that mental conditioning plays a larger role than in most other sports. I can vouch for that personally in tennis both today and especially from my days on the high school team.

The thing that intimidates me about boxing though is that its so rich in history it seems almost impossible to understand unless you've been following it for years. It doesn't seem possible to be a casual boxing fan. Either someone is really into it or they're just a befuddled outsider like me. I guess that's what an economist would describe as an "entry barrier" :7

[H2O Man]

3. Early financial projections ....

From page 14: "The financial projections regarding this fight continue to surpass the highest of expectations. ... While no one is really sure that a new (PPV) record will be set in May, one thing is certain; at $54.95 on PPV and $50 on closed circuit, it will be raining cash.

"The fight will be televised in 176 countries and the live gate has already set a new record generating an unprecedented $19 million. The tickets were sold out in the first three hours of being on sale. ..."

That is a lot of money.

As DU boxing fans know, the PPV records are: Lewis v Tyson (6-02) with 2 million; in a "non-heavyweight" fight, it was Oscar vs Felix Trinidad with 1.4 million sales.

[TroubleMan]

18. De La Hoya has a huge fan base...especially female.

It's much easier to convince your wife to buy a PPV when De La Hoya is one of the few boxing names she knows (other than Tyson, Holyfield, Lewis, & Foreman - none of whom have meaningful fights left). De La Hoya is one of the few guys left who has a instantly recognizable name (for positive reasons) with people who are not usually boxing fans. My wife is interested in this fight, and she hasn't showed interest in a fight since the Tyson/Holyfield heydays.

$54.95 is a lot to spend on a PPV for a lot of people, but I still think it will get huge PPV buys. However, I think they could make more money by dropping the price a little and that would get them even more buys.

Maybe Roy Jones Jr.'s name still resonates as loud with the casual fan, but there aren't any other guys who can draw interest like De La Hoya. He has a large Latin American fan base, a large female fan base, and a large name recognition with casual boxing fans.

[WilliamPitt]

5. When is this fight actually happening?

I've caught the HBO promos, but they make it seem like the fight is going to go on for four weeks or something. When do they ring the bell?

[H2O Man]

6. The fight:

Saturday, May 5 - at Las Vegas (HBO PPV) - 12 rounds, WBC light
middleweight title: Oscar de la Hoya (38-4, 30 KOs) vs. Floyd
Mayweather Jr. (37-0, 24 KOs); 12 rounds, bantamweights: Rey
Bautista (22-0, 17 KOs) vs. Sergio Manuel Medina (28-0, 16 KOs).

I just heard from a relative who spent quite a bit of time with Dundee and in the Kronk gym over the years. He said that Mayweather has the advantage if he can make it a contest of counter-punching -- being younger and faster, he can win most exchanges. The possible advantage for Oscar (who he wants to win) is if he can end the exchanges with a left hook.

In exchanges, all right-handed fighters want to end with a left hand punch. And each punch in a combination should be harder than the one before it. The warrior who lands last has a huge advantage.

Mayweather doesn't get hit a lot. Oscar has become easier to hit. But, of the two, Oscar has more bang in his punch.

[WilliamPitt]

9. The last De La Hoya fight I watched

was not so long ago, and was against some oafish oak tree in sneakers whose name eludes me. Still, Oscar was almost exactly as snake-quick as of old.

This one will be worth watching.

[H2O Man]

15. I suspect that

you saw his unimpressive win over Felix Sturm on 6-5-04. It was his first fight after moving up in weight, and he was flat. All three judges had it 115 to 113 (7rounds to 5) for Oscar. Many people believed that the judges at the MGM Grand in Las Vegas were keeping the Hopkins vs De La Hoya fight alive by giving Oscar a gift. What was supposed to be an easy fight turned ugly, when Oscar simply was not able to impose his will on an opponent with inferior skills, but who was better prepared.

Roy Jones Jr has two articles in this month's "SE7EN" .... one is a good interview with Floyd, and the other is a short piece on the 7 signs to look for in a potential upset. Some fit Oscar in the Sturm match:

1- Weight: Guys who gain a lot between fights, then struggle to drop weight, always wear out. It may not be in the toughest fights, either.

2- Divorce: Roy is on the money here -- a fighter going through separation/divorce is rarely focused on a fight.

3- Family tragedies: These can actually help. Oscar's mother died when he was going for the Olympics. The best example, however, was James "Buster" Douglas KOing Tyson after his mother's death. I cleaned up on that fight. Lots of guys were happy to bet that "Iron Mike" would beat a 42-1 underdog.

4- Old guys: The older fighters can have one last great fight in them. Or, like a Foreman or Duran, they might be so tough that they have a lot of good - though not great - fights left.

5- Records: A record isn't as important as experience. An undefeated fighter who has been fed soft competition will often lose to a guy who has been in with tougher guys.

6- Craft: Roy notes that "crafty" boxers usually beat "punchers." This is especially true in the lower and middle weight classes. Roy and Floyd are great examples.

7- Heavyweights: Any man weighing 200 lbs can knock any other fighter unconscious with a single blow. The heavyweight division has more upsets than any other, and for this reason.

[Awsi Dooger]

7. I don't sense much anticipation here

I've been in Las Vegas since the mid '80s and this bout a month away doesn't remotely compare to some of the ones I remember in terms of anticipation. The sportsbooks have the odds tucked in the corner of their boards, if it's up at all, and no one is talking about it. In contrast, when I was new in town I remember the Hagler/Hearns and Hagler/Leonard bouts had the odds front and center with many proposition bets and locals and tourists alike analyzing the fight every day. Same was true of later fights like Jones/Toney.

The best fights and most awaited bouts are two young talented demons with contrasting styles in their prime, like Leonard/Hearns in '81. This fight may technically break the dollar records but who cares? HBO Man described the problems, that Mayweather isn't particularly exciting or powerful and Oscar is no longer active and past his prime, more of a ceremonial fighter these days. I wouldn't even call the Vargas fight in '02 outstanding since it wasn't against an outstanding fighter. I guess that's arguable but Vargas in my mind is a second tier fighter who has lost fairly decisively to the top fighters he fought in their prime, namely Trinidad and DeLaHoya. Then he twice couldn't handle a washed up Mosley.

The fight will be at the MGM Grand on May 5, which is also Kentucky Derby day. I'm not sure that's a great choice, sharing the sporting spotlight with another huge event. Mayweather is about a 2/5 favorite and it's a huge favorite to go the distance, 1/3 odds on that. At first instinct I would agree that Mayweather by decision is the most logical outcome.

[H2O Man]

11. Good points.

I'm reminded of reports that some album by Michael Jackson outsold the Beatles' "Sgt Peppers." It has to be put in perspective.

I think that this fight is going to appeal to a few groups now -- the sports fans who believe it will be a "super fight" in the ring because it is presented as one on paper; and the fans of each of the fighters. I think HBO is promoting it well.

I've read that Oscar has said -- off the record -- that he is concerned that Floyd will rely heavily on his ability to move around the ring. De La Hoys wants Floyd to come to him, and to try to make it a physical fight, rather than a chess match. That just isn't the way Mayweather does things.

There's a good interview in a magazine "SE7EV" with Mayweather. The magazine had Roy Jones Jr. do the interview. Those two have a lot in common. They discuss issues they've had with their fathers. Interesting reading.

[trumad]

13. My guarantees at picking football have been horrible this last season...

But it aint going to carry over to boxing.... Mayweather will annihilate the pretty boy.

[H2O Man]

14. He enjoys winning

by absolutely outclassing an opponent. And he has a strong dislike for Oscar. It's real, the type of dislike that those who feel they do not get their just recognition sometimes have. I think that the most likely outcome is Floyd winning almost every round in a fight where neither man gets decked or seriously hurt.

There is an interesting AJ Leibling saying that is in "SE7EV" this month: "A boxer's fame is like a knight's armor; it becomes the property of the man who beats him." That is how Floyd Mayweather Jr -- the Villian in this conflict -- views Oscar De La Hoya's beloved hero status ..... even if that status exists primarily among Oscar's promotional machine.

[H2O Man]

16. World Boxing (Summer 2007)

The new World Boxing magazine has four articles, spanning pages 22 to 57, on the upcoming Mayweather vs De La Hoya fight. Don Stradley's article predicts that the most likely outcome is a cautious fight that will not satisfy most fans, and a decision that will be controversial.

I spoke with my brother, who is hoping for an upset win for Oscar. But he recognizes that unless Floyd comes after Oscar, it is going to be hard for De La Hoya to land his left hook. If Oscar comes forward, he will probably find that his hand speed is reduced, and will be out-gunned by Mayweather. He said the best hope for Oscar is that Floyd comes forward at some point before the 6th round, making the same brief mistake that Mike Quarry made when he went after Bob Foster. While possible, it isn't as if Oscar has Foster's bang. It would take a combination to really hurt him, and thus far, no one has really hit Mayweather cleanly with a combination.

[H2O Man]

17. Watching Mayweather on film ....

As DUers familiar with boxing know, the best fighters are the guys who punch in combinations. Those who can put together 3 or 4 punches tend to "outgun" those who throw "1-2's," or as Teddy Atlas says, "1 and done."

In a combination, each punch becomes harder than the one before it. A right-handed fighter tries to end each combination with a left, because this tends to put them in the best defensive position, and allows them to move to either side safely.

One thing I've noticed by watching film is that as rounds go by, and Floyd "Pretty Boy" Mayweather becomes more comfortable, he opens his mouth after he throws a combination. This may not sound important, but it actually can be -- because if you have your mouth open, you will get hurt by a good punch to the jaw. And Oscar throws a short, quick left hook to the chin at the end of almost every exchange.

It may be that Floyd will not make this error in such an important fight. But I know this: if I've picked up on this, Oscar De La Hoya surely has.

[Wetzelbill]

26. I was going to comment on this yesterday

but I got busy. That's pretty astute of you to notice that he opens his mouth.

I've always thought Mayweather would be susceptible to getting tagged when he gets comfortable. His technique at slipping punches and throwing combinations gets a little sloppier as a fight goes on. It's just that his abilities are such that it never has mattered, plus the other guy is typically in a lot worse shape and even sloppier than Floyd ever is at that time.

I think Oscar's going to wait a few rounds, before really throwing any hard lefts, then when Floyd gets a little comfortable in the middle rounds he is going to start whistling them in hard and fast as often as possible.

I got hit once with my mouth open in a smoker. I didn't go down, but my jaw felt funny for days. Made a clicking sound, haha.

[H2O Man]

28. I have been

on both ends as far as the "open mouth" goes .... it is an easy way to get hurt, and it also makes a fine target if the other fellow starts to tire. (Most fans have seen Oscar bite hard on his mouthpiece during the introductions in the ring. I've yet to see him with his mouth open in a fight.)

It's interesting to consider how Oscar will try to fight. Will he attempt to be aggressive, and cut the ring off? Or will he try to get Floyd to come to him?

My brother on the west coast likes Oscar, and thinks Oscar might have to catch Mayweather moving in. He said he thinks that he has to let Floyd get comfortable in the same way Bob Foster let Mike Quarry years ago. And once he is a little confident, let the hook catch him coming in. And that is the hardest punch Oscar throws.

I think Floyd's balance can be a factor with a taller opponent being aggressive. Oscar might have to be very physical, and that tires an older guy out.

[H2O Man]

19. 30-Day Weight Check

The WBC had its 30-day mandatory weight check earlier this month. Both fighters were required to weigh-in within 10% of the 154 lb limit.

Mayweather was 152 lbs; De La Hoya was at 164.5 lbs.

Interesting.

[H2O Man]

20. One nice thing

about the promotion for the fight is that HBO is beginning to run film of each man's past fights. It was fun this morning to watch the reruns of the Mayweather vs Judah and the De La Hoys vs Mayorga fights.

Mayweather reminds me of Sweet Pea Whitaker for a number of reasons, among them that if you do something "dirty" to him, he tends to do it back double. In the 10th with Judah, there is a point at about 1 minute into the round, when Zab lands a blow just below the belt. "Pretty Boy" knew it was intentional. A short time later, he responds with a low blow. And then, again, but harder. It was a few seconds later that Zab lost his cool, and reacted with a hard low blow, then the rabbit punch. And Zab got caught, because like in any sport, the ref always catches the guy who "reacts" .... but not the guy who "responds."

De La Hoya was sharp in the first round with Mayorga, but the rust showed in the next few rounds. But the guy knows how to use his size to his advantage, and although he got hit with some hard punches -- I believe 13 hard punches in round 4 -- he came back and won big.

Fans have probably read that Mosley is trying to provoke Mayweather. He is sparring Oscar, and points out how this helps De La Hoya prepare for a fast opponent. Shane adds that he is just as fast as Floyd, but stronger. Of course, he is not as quick as Mayweather, and it is uncertain who is actually stronger. Mosley and Mayweather would be an interesting fight. I think that De La Hoya's camp is going to continue to try to get Floyd to a state where he takes chances, being aggressive, to try to outgun Oscar in the early rounds.

[Wetzelbill]

21. Mayweather is an unbelievable athlete

He has a penchant for not fighting though. He'll be outclassing a guy and just refuse to put him away. He embarassed Baldomir badly, but even with one hand, he could have finished the guy. Floyd gets into a mode where he will make a guy whiff punches, yet will not throw that many himself. When he does engage he's capable of blowing people out, like in his fights with Gatti and Angel Manfredy. Even without knocking people out, when he's aggressive the accumulation of punches torment his opponents. Like he flat beat up Jesus Chavez, Diego Corrales and Genaro Hernandez. If the Floyd who fought Corrales showed up all the time, nobody could ever touch the guy, but all too often you get the Floyd who scrapes by or is content to make a guy look like a doofus and call it a night. For a guy so talented he literally has no killer instinct, or at least he suppresses it. Often he gets in useless crybaby fits with the press and other people and it distracts him. Like lately he's been feuding with UFC president Dana White. Floyd's never been a classy guy, but he hurts himself above and beyond with his antics. Typically, he's so skilled that none of it ever caught up with him, except in his first fight with Jose Luis Castillo, but he got a gift decision to win that one.

You know, Mayweather can beat anybody. But sometimes I wonder if Floyd even wants to be truly great. I think he doesn't even know what it takes to be a real winner. It will be a disaster for this guy when his skills start to go, because he has absolutely nothing else to fall back on. Ali had heart, Floyd has a big mouth.

Oscar, he can be great at times. He looked awesome against Mayorga, but that guy is a physical animal with amateur technique. De La Hoya made him look like a fraud. But I questioned Oscar's ability to be great back in his losses to Mosely and Trinidad. Especially Trinidad, because Oscar goes out and put on a clinic for the 8 rounds or so, then coasted. It was just a soft move. He got robbed, but basically he quit fighting for several rounds because he had it won. A real champ will find a way to take a guy out or continue to dominate him. Like Hopkins did to Tarver. Hopkins fought 12 rounds and never let Tarver off the hook in a dominating performance. If Oscar had did that with Tito, who knows how great he could have been? He's still pretty great, but you have to question Oscar's hunger. I think he might be pretty hungry now. Beating Mayweather truly cements Oscar's legacy. And vice versa. It depends on who veritably wants it.

That being said, Mayweather has rarely been tested. He's never really had to face adversity. When guy's are frontrunners they tend to get soft. They get used to running over people and when they get tested they fold. If Oscar puts Floyd through the fire he can win this thing, because I guarantee you, Floyd doesn't have the mettle to keep getting up off the canvas. Oscar is huge compared to him, and his left hook is devastating. I would say Oscar knocks him out in the later rounds. Like the tenth. That would be my pick.

Except for one thing.

I have a funny feeling that for once in his effing life Mayweather is going to be everything that he should be.

So Floyd by a dominating decision. He'll be masterful. I hope he loses, but I just have a feeling he's going to go out and be ineffable.

[Rican1]

22. Agreed, Mayweather is a great talent

The smart money would be Floyd by decision, possibly a shutout. But I am really hoping that Oscar does knock him out. Floyd and his entire family are way to cocky. While I am not the biggest De La Hoya fan I think an upset is possible due to the size and power difference between the two fighters. At any rate this should be one of the few pay-per-view fights that will be worth the money.

[Wetzelbill]

23. oh yeah, I'm hoping Oscar puts him out so hard

that you can literally see his soul flutter away, haha.

Oscar's size and power are substantial in this matchup. Oscar ko'd Vargas and Vargas is huge, so he can bang. Obviously, Hopkins was just too much for him, but Oscar often rises to the occasion, so this is an intriguing fight. I won't buy it though. No cable. I may watch it somewhere though.

[H2O Man]

24. I think it is

very interesting how people view each of the two. Oscar has the "Golden Boy" image. I think that it is one of the most fake, media-created, manipulated images in sports. He has had the money needed to make incidents "disappear," which would otherwise show him to be a rather unappealing prick. I say this without trying to take away from his ring skills at all -- he is actually a better fighter than he is given credit for.

Floyd is a great example of a top fighter reflecting the social realities of his day. He is not a squeaky-clean "golden boy" -- not at all -- but he has behaved far better than Oscar outside of the ring in his adult life. He has been, at times, a thug, but he has paid his dues.

Floyd is one of hundreds of thousands of kids in his generation who had a MIA father. If anything, his father was worse than simply missing -- he is a vain, cruel, frustrated jackass, who was capable of serious violence. Floyd's personality was impacted by his father's pathology.

I read a fascinating article by a good author who said that there will be two big groups of people watching the fight: those who love Oscar, and those who hate Floyd. We are back to the days of Cassius Clay/ Cassius X/ Muhammad Ali. Because Floyd is brash and fights in a style that doesn't satisfy fans watching from outside that squared circle, they want to see him get his ass kicked, and his mouth shut.

The truth is that an athlete doesn't reach the level Floyd has without having the extreme focus that includes his sense that he is the very best boxer -- today or ever. Many great boxers suspect they are just that, and quite a few are convinced of it. But when one says it publicly -- writers and fans dislike hearing it. They prefer, by and large, someone who tells humble lies .... hence, on HBO's 24/7 we hear Oscar lie about how darned hard it is for everyone to keep up with Freddie Roach. Now Freddie is a wonderful man, and the boxing community is saddened that he deals with Parkinson Syndrom. He deserves our utmost respect for his brave battle. But it is simply not true that Oscar has trouble keeping up with Freddie, or else he would not be allowed in the ring with Floyd. I find that type of lie rather obnoxious; I deal with physical disability, and do not get a thrill from patronizing lies, and I've yet to meet a person in this situation who does.

I think Oscar has a very good chance of winning next week. He has prepared hard, and he is fully convinced that no fighter in the history of the sport, his size, can beat him at his best. Freddie Roach has likely identified two mistakes Floyd makes, that create an opportunity for Oscar to hit and hurt him. And Floyd has a good chance of simply outboxing Oscar and taking a one-sided decision. He is looking to punish Oscar's ribs, a place that De La Hoya doesn't like to be hit.

It's going to be interesting to watch the build-up in the next six days. And the fight will be fun to watch, too.

[Wetzelbill]

25. I don't particularly like Oscar

I can't stand Floyd though. Used to like him but he's turned me off over the years.

I've always wondered about Oscar. I've heard things about him being a jerk etc. I used to think he was wholly manufactured, like you said, but I don't pay much attention to that anymore. But back when Oscar was singing and all that stuff, I just found all that phony and unbearable. Oscar doesn't fight frequently enough for me to pay much attention to him though. I do think that when Oscar is on, he's on. And the fact that Floyd has never truly faced adversity in the ring makes this compelling. Can Oscar make him go through the fire? How will Floyd react? I think one left hook could put Floyd out, but can Oscar even hit the guy in the first place? Mayweather is capable of perfection, like his fight against Baldomir, he was perfect. I don't think it's just that he's unsatisfying, it's that Floyd won't fight. He has an overmatched opponent who is light years his inferior, and he'll stay on the outside, throw nothing significant and do just enough to win rounds. Great champions rise to the occasion. Floyd is content to barely get by. You know why I say Mayweather doesn't know what it takes to truly be great? Because he doesn't. Is he focused enough to go out and beat guys he's better than? Well, yes, outside of the first Castillo fight anyway. Floyd goes out beats a Baldomir-type fighter, who isn't even in his league, by barely doing enough, and then wonders why people don't think he's better than Sugar Ray Robinson or Ali.

Now is he impressive. Oh hell yeah. His win against Baldomir was a shut out. Like watching a guy pitch a no-hitter in a way. Perfect, but absolutely tepid. Mayweather embarrassed Baldomir when he should have just ripped the guy's heart out. It's beyond not satisfying, it makes me, as a former internationally competitive athlete, question the guy's heart and guts. It's like Floyd wants to be great, but isn't willing to do what it requires to be great. He coasts rather than competes. And because he is so much better than everybody else, it works for him. But when those skills fade and Floyd is left to fight more on heart and guts than just his tremendous ability, will he be able to do it? I doubt it, but he's so averse to anything he'll probably retire before it ever comes to that.

[H2O Man]

29. It's an interesting thought ....

Remember when Roy Jones was in his prime, he was boring. Few of his opponents were able to compete with him. He was content to win, often by decision. In the end, it turned out that his chin was not good. I always thought he was a great fighter, but that there were a half-dozen light heavyweights who would have to be considered "greater."

As "fans," we want to see exciting fights. As a promoter or manager, you want fighters who draw big crowds. As a trainer, you want a fighter who hits and doesn't get hit. So there are a number of ways of viewing Floyd. I think that he is smart enough to see that boxing is a sport where you hurt and get hurt. If he can make millions, and win all of his fights without any injuries other than his hands, I can appreciate that. But it increases the chances of this "super fight" being a rather dull affair, and Floyd outboxing Oscar in 10+ rounds, and sports fans who are "casual" boxing fans thinking that Oscar (and the paying fans) got ripped off.

[nolabels]

33. It will be De La Hoya who wins (kinda)

This is just a set up for three part. The crap is so fixed :puke:

[trumad]

27. Floyd in 4

bank on it!

[H2O Man]

30. Body punches.

Floyd is prepared to go to the body -- hard -- for the first 8 rounds. There is a funny thing about getting the wind knocked out of ya ..... darned hard to defend yourself. B-Hop and Mosley both hurt Oscar with body punches. So if it does end earlier in Floyd's favor, it will be connected to those body shots.

Another point of interest: Mayweather rarely has been hit with consecutive punches to the head. Zab Super Judah landed more clean shots to Floyd's head than anyone else. But after landing one, he tended to miss completely, or have a shot blocked off a glove or shoulder, when he tried to follow up. If I know how Freddie Roach works, look for Oscar to do the opposite of what fighters normally do: rather than start with the body and work his way up, he will go to the body after almost every punch that catches Floyd's head.

[H2O Man]

31. TIME (May 7)

The new edition of TIME has a 2-page article on the fight (71-2). It's an interesting article, not because it has any significant insights on the boxing match itself, but rather, because the author understands the "human interest" involved.

[Jcrowley]

32. Mayweather wins

TKO somewhere in rounds 8-10.

[H2O Man]

34. May 1 ......

The HBO poll shows that 54% picking Oscar De La Hoya, and 46% going with Mayweather.

I've read that HBO is now confident that this fight will sell more PPVs than any previous fight.

[H2O Man]

35. A few thoughts ....

I've enjoyed reading a few articles that focus on Freddie Roach's influence. Most of the articles recognize that this guy is one of the top trainers in the sport today. They may not understand why.

Right now, both Freddie and Teddy Atlas are getting some much deserved attention. Most people know that Teddy was a student of Cus D'Amato, the legendary boxing guru. Many of Teddy's sayings are straight from Cus: a wonderful example is, "a boxer can lie about how hard he trained, but the truth comes out in the ring." Teddy also has a wonderful grasp of how a warrior must overcome fear, and that is also directly from his being a student of Cus D'Amato.

Freddie Roach, like Teddy, had a boxing career. Both were tough guys, but without the skills that could take them to the top tiers in the sport. In both cases, it wasn't from a lack of trying.

Roach is a student of Eddie Futch, a legendary trainer. Futch had also been a boxer; he was an amateur champion and sparring partner for a young heavyweight contender named Joe Louis. But he is best known for training Kenny Norton, and being the top assistant to Yank Durham, who trained Smoking Joe Frazier. Eddie is known for "shutting down" the Thrilla in Manila, when he was concerned Frazier might die from the beating he was taking. (Though he has always denied it, Frazier did not want to come out for the 15th round; watch the film on ESPN Classic, and you can see him shake his head "no" when asked about continueing.)

One sports writer noted that Roach joining De La Hoya's camp now is like a football coach being brought in for the Super Bowl. I think Roach brings a lot to the table for Oscar. First, Floyd Mayweather Sr., who had been Oscar's most recent trainer, had brought some family pathology to the De La Hoya camp when Oscar was deciding if he should fight Floyd Jr. Cutting him sent that bad energy to Floyd's camp. Freddie is a calm, focused trainer.

Training is the first half of Freddie's job. He knows that Oscar is significantly bigger, though not necessarily stronger, than Floyd. He has planned where Oscar needs to make the fight in the ring. There are things Oscar can do, and things he can't do:to win, he needs to get Floyd to come to him, and he also needs to cut the ring off when Floyd circles around him; he can't chase Floyd, or he loses. Freddie also knows that Oscar has to punch in combinations, and that is really easier said than done against Floyd. I'd rather have Freddie's insight on that issue than Floyd Sr.'s.

Also, Freddie needs to be there in the corner, keeping Oscar focused. In almost every fight, there comes a time when the head guy in the corner has to deal with something unexpected. Could be a cut. A loss of focus. Mostly, a need to adjust. And Freddie has learned from Eddie Futch how to help a fighter adjust in between rounds.

In terms of corners, Oscar has an advantage in this fight.

[H2O Man]

36. ... part two ....

Boxing fans who saw the HBO fight between Juan Diaz and Acelito Freitas got to see an interesting live interview with De La Hoya and Mayweather. This was not like the edited performances we see on the HBO 4-part series 24/7.

Oscar stated that he has worked extra hard, because he really dislikes Mayweather. He said he is angry about the insults that Floyd has been directing at him, and plans to punish him in the ring. Even casual boxing fans should recognize this as being almost word-for-word what Oscar said about Mayorga before his last fight. And that's not a bad thing -- it's just a window that allows us to see how Oscar needs to identify the contest in his mind, in order to get fully prepared.

Two days after that interview, Oscar told a couple reporters that he is encouraged by what he views as the stress of the event getting to Floyd Mayweather. And those who saw the live interview may have been struck at how emotional Mayweather became. At the beginning, he was joking and clearly enjoying the chance to insult Oscar. But in a second, he became highly emotional.

Some writers and fans have noted that Floyd has broke out in tears after some of his fights. And they take this as some sign of weakness, or un-manliness, in what is the sport where it is most important to harness one's emotions.

I'm reminded of a couple of things. The first thing that comes to mind is from a while back, when there was a young kid in the local amateur ranks in New York. He fought for the Catskill team, and he had behaved pretty strangely in the locker room before fights. He would start crying, and when his trainer would be getting him ready, he spoke in a high-pitched voice, complete with a lisp. I remember one trainer telling me about this, saying the kid was a freak. It was, of course, Mike Tyson.

The other thing I remember was my brother, who had the opportunity to hang out in Ali's camp a few times, telling me about how Dundee came to expect the Champ to start complaining in the last couple days before a fight. His hands hurt. His shoulder was injured. His foot ached. He didn't feel just right. His ribs were really sore.

Boxing is a strange sport. Great fighters can be puzzles for writers and fans. But for the men in the training camps, it was best summed up by the late Cus D'Amato years ago: the hero and the coward both feel the same anxiety and fear before a great contest. The hero learns to use that energy to his best advantage; the coward is destroyed by it.

Thus far, Floyd Mayweather has shown a great ability to use the force of that energy to his best advantage. From what I've read and seen, he is in fantastic shape, and his hands are strong. He is fighting a bigger man Saturday, but he is focused on winning every minute of every round.

[H2O Man]

37. More ....

Two other examples come to mind, regarding boxers and how they deal with stress. the two are almost exact opposites.

First, we look back to when Lennox Lewis fought Oliver McCall. In the first fight, I picked McCall, in part because I knew Lewis wasn't taking him seriously. Also, Oliver had both a hard punch and very good delivery. I thought McCall would be the champion for a few years.

I was half right: he knocked Lewis flat. But emotional issues, along with substance abuse, took a big toll. In their rematch, McCall had an emotional melt-down in the ring. It was a sad and strange thing for fans to watch. (McCall is still fighting today. He can beat people in the top 20, but will be unlikely to get a big fight. The guy is still one of the hardest punchers in the sport.)

The next example was the weigh-in in Florida, when contender Cassius Clay was preparing to challenge Heavyweight Champion Charles "Sonny" Liston. Clay was outrageous at the weigh-in ceremony. His blood pressure sky-rocketed. This line from an AP report says it all: "His heart and pulse pounding at such a rate that Dr. Alexander Robbins, the examining physician, feared he might suffer an emotional crack-up before ring-time, the handsome young challenger finally became so overwrought in his ranting and raving that Miami Beach boxing Commission Chairman Morris Klein slapped him with a $2500 fine in an attempt to quiet him."

After the weigh-in, Dr. Robbins told reporters that he might rule Clay unable to fight, if his blood pressure didn't come down to a safe level. About an hour later, Angelo had Clay's blood pressure taken again, and it was normal.

Even today, people debate what happened. Did Clay put on an act, in order to unsettle Liston? The champ had said that, having been in prison, the only thing that scared him was a "crazy man."

In my opinion, Cassius wasn't acting. He was that tense. He burned a huge amount of energy, and that led to the calm an hour later. By fight-yime, he was fully recovered, and he fought one of the very best fights in heavyweight history.

[Colobo]

46. Not according to Uncle Roger

who called Roach a "bum" and said Eddie Futch didn't built any important fighters... those Mayweathers are pure class... :sarcasm:

[H2O Man]

47. Roger

is outrageous. I read that he has been saying he could beat Freddie, even if he had polio.

[H2O Man]

38. You guys are

clearly obsessed with this fight. (grin)

DirecTV has a good feature playing on Channel 123. Various film clips of fights, and interviews with "experts" and "man-on-the-street."

One thing that's interesting is to watch film of Oscar vs Sweet Pea Whitaker. Despite the judges' decision,an older Whitaker outboxed a prime De La Hoya. If styles make fights, this is one contest that the Mayweather forces have likely reviewed. In two contests with another slick boxer, Sugar Shane Mosley won two decisions over Oscar. To be fair, Oscar should have won the second decision. But he is not at his best against crafty boxers.

[Ekirh]

39. I'm not watching it but . . .

I have to say my closest co-worker at work is PUMPED for this fight. He's been talking about it all day to the point that even know I'm not watching it.. I'm just interested to see who ends up winning . .

For the record. . . he's rooting for Mayweather.. but I can't give you his reasons why (Cause I can't remember them) . .

I hope you enjoy it all the same though . .

Since I'm oblvious to booxing.. is this the "Biggest" fight that's come about in awhile?

[H2O Man]

40. It is on paper.

It's kind of funny, as one sports writer noted there are two huge groups wanting to watch the fight: those who love Oscar, and those that hate Floyd. The promotion of the bout has made it a huge money-maker, and in that sense, it will be one of the biggest sporting events ever. And fights featuring great boxers -- and both of these warriors qualify as "great" -- attract the widest range of sports fans.

The odds are beginning to turn towards Oscar, largely because of his popularity. If Mayweather wins (and he probably will), a lot of people will complain. I will not be among them.

[La_Fourmi_Rouge]

41. My father was a fan of baseball and boxing.

H2O Man, I have heard some folks say (Jim Rome) that this might be the last of the big-gate PPV fights in boxing history, given the rise of the MMA groups like Pride and UFC, etc. It is hard for a budding old-timer like me to contemplate, as I grew up during what I consider to be the heyday of the boxing era, and had the privilege to witness the lightweight greats Leonard, Hearns, Duran, Mancini, Chavez, Camacho - I know I'm leaving some out - it was heaven for a boxing fan back in the day.

I have a hometown hero: Jerry Quarry, best heavyweight to never win the title - dude could take the best punch any living fighter could deliver, but he cut easily. He suffered some seriously bad cuts, late in his career, as I remember it...

Have you ever heard of a writer named Margaret Dunne? A crack boxing reporter who wrote for the Portland Oregonian and the Willamette week in the '80s.. man she was good, because she loved the sport. I have tried to Google her but come up dry. She was about 80 years old, so she's probably gone now...

I sure don't know enough to call this fight, but I will be watching with my brother and a few nephews!

[H2O Man]

42. Here's Jerry .....

....at a fight card in Utica, NY (8-14-76). One of my brothers was on the card; George Foreman was in the main event, KOing Scott LeDoux in 3 rounds. Former welterweight & middleweight champion Carmen Basilio worked my brother's corner that night.

Years later, my other brother would see Jerry on the west coast almost every morning. He was hanging out, waiting for the liquor store to open, while my brother delivered mail. Jerry was "buddies" with my old friend Mike Nixon, a tough middleweight from Binghamton. I fought on the card where Nixon upset prospect Mike Rossman, less than a year before the New Jersey slugger won the world lightheavyweight title. Here is Nixon exhibitioning a 50-year old Sugar Ray Robinson:



I don't recognize the name of the lady. She would have lived near Denny Moyer, who my brother lives near now. I might find something in the morning. At my age, I remember more in the hours after ingesting my daily cup of coffee!

[H2O Man]

50. Denny Moyer

was, by the way, the first warrior to hold the title that is on the line Saturday night. Here is the list of the champions, from SecondsOut.com:

1. Denny Moyer (us)
2. Sandro Mazzinghi (italy)
3. Nino Benvenuti (italy)
4. Kisoo Kim (korea)
5. Fred Little (us)
6. Carmelo Bossi (italy)
7. Koichi Wajima (japan)
8. Miguel De Oliveira (brazil)
9. Elisha Obed (bahamas)
10. Eckhard Dagge (germany)
11. Rocky Mattioli (italy)
12. Maurice Hope (gb)
13. Wilfredo Benitez (p. rico)
14. Thomas Hearns (us)
15. Duane Thomas (us)
16. Lupe Aquino (mexico)
17. Gianfranco Rosi (italy)
18. Don Curry (us)
19. Rene Jacquot (france)
20. John Mugabi (uganda)
21. Terry Norris (us)
22. Simon Brown (jamaica)
23. Terry Norris (us) *
24. Luis Santana (dom r.)
25. Terry Norris (us) *
26. Keith Mullings (us)
27. Francisco Javier Castillejo (spain)
28. Oscar De La Hoya (us)
29. Francisco Javier Castillejo (spain) interim *
30. Shane Mosley (us)
31. Ronald ‘Winky’ Wright (us)
32. Ricardo Mayorga (nicaragua)
33. Oscar De La Hoya (us) *

I think this list, which includes some of the greatest fighters in boxing's history, supports the belief that it is generally easier to move up from welterweight to jr. middleweight, than it is to move from jr. middleweight to middleweight. While the number of pounds is about the same, the jump to middleweight is very hard. Those fighters who have done it are an elite group.

[H2O Man]

43. PS:

If I had a penny for every time someone like Jim Rome announced the last grasp for boxing, I'd be a rich man. I know a number of people who enjoy the other types of fighting, and they will no doubt make a lot of money. But when the top boxers of any era meet, a larger cross-section of sports fans take note than for any other event. Boxing is global, and other parts of the world will make up for any loss in the USA market. Finally, we are within 4 years of a talented generation of young heavyweights. Whenever there is a great heavyweight fight, it attracts far more than sports fans. Always has, always will.

[H2O Man]

44. Good Guy vs Bad Guy .....

Some journalists have noted that "Pretty Boy" Floyd is happy to play the role of the "bad guy" in this fight. Older DUers might recall a quote from Charles "Sonny" Liston, from a March 23, 1962 article in TIME, titled -- what else? -- "The Bad Guy." Here is the article:

"There was frank animal hatred in the obsidian eyes. The harried champion felt it. He shuddered involuntarily and looked away. On his chest, rivulets of sweat sparkled in the harsh glare of naked lights. Patiently, coldly, the massive-shouldered challenger stalked his prey, drawing his circles tighter and tighter, until the champion was trapped against the ropes. A thudding left to the belly doubled up the champion. Another left to the head made him drop his gloves. The challenger swung his right . . .

"This is the dream of Charles ("Sonny"') Liston, 29. It is a tortured dream, peopled with shadows: hoodlums, lawyers, judges, cops, commissioners, pugs, promoters, priests, Senators and sportswriters. It is a fragile dream. But there is a chance of its coming true. Last week the terms of the contract were agreed on (55% for the champion, 12½% for the challenger) and the promotional drums were booming for what promised to be the richest bout in boxing history. This summer, probably in June at New York's Yankee Stadium, Sonny Liston will fight Floyd Patterson for the heavyweight championship of the world, and the total gate receipts are estimated at something like $4,000,000 (largely because of TV rights).

"A Grunt & a Click. Challenger Liston is the most controversial figure to fight for the heavyweight championship since Jack ("Li'l Arthur") Johnson, the first of the great Negro champions and a man whose full-blown arrogance inspired fans to cry for "a great white hope." Semiliterate, surly and suspicious, Liston starts telephone conversations with "It's your dime, start talking," ends them without warning, on a grunt and a click. Brazen and tough, he has been arrested 19 times since 1950, convicted twice (armed robbery, assaulting a police officer), spent a total of three years in prison. His underworld connections are notorious: he worked as a head-knocking labor goon for St. Louis Hoodlum John Vitale, and his boxing career was supervised by stooges of Ganglord Frankie Carbo.

"To police in St. Louis, Liston is an incorrigible troublemaker. "He's a bad man," says Detective Sergeant James Reddick. "He hangs out with a bunch of dogs." To his onetime comanager, Monroe Harrison, he is "vicious all the way." To some sportswriters, he is too mean to be permitted in the ring. Wrote Gene Ward in the New York Daily News: "The world has too many hoodlums in high places as it is." Yet to the Rev. Edward P. Murphy, a Denver Catholic priest who befriended him, Liston is "a man of tremendous potential."

"The fashionable explanation for criminal acts is a troubled childhood. Liston's was all of that. One of 25 children born to an Arkansas cotton farmer and his two wives, Sonny has hated authority as long as he can remember. "I caught a whupping from my father every day. If he missed a day, I'd have to go to him and ask, 'Why didn't you whup me?' " His mother walked out and went to St. Louis. At twelve, Sonny ran away to join her. "She put me in school," says Liston, "but I was much bigger than the other kids and I didn't stay long. I started fighting, and I started playing hooky, and one thing led to another. I wound up in the house of detention." The original charge was breaking and entering, but Liston soon graduated to grander crime, served two years in the state prison at Jefferson City, Mo., for a series of restaurant robberies. There Liston met a chaplain who interested him in boxing. He memorized helpful hints from Joe Louis' My Life Story (sample: "Never jab at your target; always try to jab through it"), soon was prison champion, emerged to win the intercity Golden Gloves heavyweight championship in 1953.

"What Counts. "A boxing match is like a cowboy movie,'' says Liston. "There's got to be good guys, and there's got to be bad guys. That's what people pay for." Liston is a certified bad guy, but when he squares off against Patterson in June, only one thing will count: How well can he fight? Judging from his record—33 wins, one loss, 23 knockouts—Sonny Liston can take care of himself in the ring. But he is unlikely to terrify Patterson. With only two exceptions (Tommy Jackson in 1956, Ingemar Johansson in 1959) Patterson has knocked out every man he has faced in the past seven years."


http://www.time.com/time/printout/0,8816,829132,00.html#

Of course, Liston did "terrify" Patterson, who he flattened in one round.

The article doesn't have Liston's full quote. I remember it well, and think it fits Floyd Mayweather: "A boxing match is like a cowboy movie. There's got to be good guys, and there's got to be bad guys. That's what people pay for. They pay because they want to see the good guy beat the bad guy. But I change things: I'm the bad guy, but I don't get beat." (In the '70s, this quote was called "Epitaph for the Bear.")

[La_Fourmi_Rouge]

48. That last quote is very apt.

What I take away from interviews of Mayweather however, is that, even though he does have that "bad guy" image, he is also a very intelligent fellow, and really does manage his considerable emotional life quite well - channeling it into his craft like all great artists do.

Speaking of bad guys with anger management issues: another hometown hero is Diego Corrales, who a few years ago was flattened by Mayweather in the first round of a title fight, and shortly thereafter did serious time for domestic violence (a couple years I think). He seems to have pulled himself together, but I know those demons can haunt a guy until his dying day...

The best fight I've seen (as a casual boxing fan) this century was Corrales v. Castillo I, in 2005 - the one where Corrales spit out his mouthpiece to gain a bit more recovery time after a knockdown and ended up winning by TKO. It was a blood and guts war in the center of the ring - I cannot believe those guys recovered enough to fight again later that same year!

[H2O Man]

49. An interesting thing

is that boxing's "bad guys" are often highly intelligent. Floyd Mayweather, Jr is the most recent example.

Regarding Liston, although he was not "school" smart, I remember Jose Torres saying, "Liston was so smart that it wasn't funny." Torres, the former middleweight and light heavyweight champion, is widely recognized as one of the most thoughful and insightful athletes of any generation. He had become close friends with Senator Robert Kennedy, when RFK was deciding if he should run for the presidency in '68.

Likewise, Mike Tyson is intelligent. He is not well-educated in the sense that society recognizes. He does not speak well. And he has issues with rage and substance abuse that have handcuffed him to the image of a primitive brute. But he is actually one of the best boxing historians of our time, and those people I know who have known Mike closely all agree that he is an intelligent person. Most of those people came to strongly dislike Mike, but not because he is "stupid."

[Colobo]

45. Great post, H2O; here's my take

I think it will be a dull fight, first of all. Mayweather is a master boxer which, most of the times, bases his game on defensive ability more than offense (exceptions would be the Corrales and the Gatti fight). He has advantages on youth, speed, ring intelligence and defense.

DLH is a great fighter, no doubt, but he's 34 and not even close to what he used to be 8 years ago. Except for his Mayorga blowout (Trinidad and him abused the Nicaraguan madman), DLH has basically lost his last major fights, including the Sturm robbery. Even in the Mayorga fight, DLH looked old (fighting flat-footed, got caught with super-wide shots that he probably could see coming from a mile away). So, even though he is the bigger man with the power advantage, it won't help him much against a prime Mayweather that will bring his A game to the fight. Also, don't forget DLH gets tired after 7 or 8 rounds, so expect him to slow down considerably after chasing Mayweather around the ring and catching some good leather in the process. Mayweather will probably make a bit of a show in the last 4 rounds nailing DLH constantly with some quick flurries.

Mayweather by UD, with the scorecards in the 116-112 range (8 rounds to 4).

[H2O Man]

51. Good points.

I think that it is very likely that the casual boxing fan and the De La Hoya fans will find it to be a boring fight. I really enjoy the great boxers, who are true believers in the axiom "hit and don't get hit." Guys like Willie Pep and Pernell Whitaker are the obvious examples. I'm sure that the pre-plane crash Willie Pep would not have been a PPV draw in this era.. And Whitaker wasn't popular enough to get the powers-that-be to give him a fair shake in the scoring in his big fights.

Properly done, a boxer breaks each round into segments, and tries to win enough of those segments to win each round. That is why Floyd has lost very few rounds in his entire career. I'm reminded of Ray Leonard fighting in spurts in order to beat Haglar. The casual fans felt ripped-off, because they do not appreciate how rounds are correctly scored. Though I always liked Marvin and never cared for Ray, it was clear he took the fight.

Sluggers do not fight in spurts in the same manner as boxers. The best sluggers are either able to flatten an opponent when they connect with a single punch or combination -- examples being George Foreman, Bob Foster, and Tommy Hearns -- or they put money in the bank with body punches and using their strength and accuracy to wear a guy down. Tito was a combination of all of these, and that's why Oscar ran in the end of their fight: Tito had Oscar in a position where if Oscar hadn't have run and lost on points, he would have been TKOed. Or counted out. Oscar didn't "give the fight away," as some people say; he got beat when he couldn't stand up to Tito's superior force.

Oscar is a boxer-puncher. But since 2000, his knock-outs are limited to: Gatti, Vargas, Campas, and Mayorga. Good, tough fighters, but they are all punching bags. They didn't win fights by way of defensive skills -- their ability to take huge amounts of punishment and wear an opponent out was what made them exciting fighters. (Gatti would be a greater PPV attraction than Pep, but he isn't in the same class of fighter.) Oscar hasn't knocked any good boxer out in a long, long time.

[bmbmd]

52. While Mayweather was in training,

De La Hoya was in La Quinta playing golf with Geroge Lopez et al at the Bob Hope Desert Classic. I think that means something.

[H2O Man]

53. Teddy Atlas

thinks Oscar can outbox Floyd, if he does chase Floyd, and makes the smaller man come to him. But he said that Mayweather has an intensity about him that reminds Teddy of Roberto Duran before the first Ray Leonard fight. In both cases, he notes, a great fighter resents the public adoration that a cute-faced, golden boy enjoys.

I find your comment very interesting, because I had just read where Shane Mosley had said Oscar used to come into the ring over-trained for big fights. Shane felt Oscar would leave too much in the gym. When a guy does that more than once in big fights, I think it reflects on his psychological make-up, more than his physical abilities.

Floyd trains on his own schedule, and often goes to the gym three times per day. That, too, speaks to his psychological make-up, even more than his physical skills.

Oscar has lost his three "biggest" fights. There is a flaw in his make-up that thus far has not been seen in Mayweather.

[H2O Man]

54. Weigh-in:

Oscar De La Hoya: 154 lbs

Floyd Mayweather: 150 lbs

[Wetzelbill]

55. In moving up, how much of a factor will Floyd's brittle hands be?

That's a big X-factor. Floyd is going to have to punch a the biggest and best guy he has ever fought. If he busts a hand, well, then Oscar will be able to come in and attempt to rough Floyd up without too much worry.

Then again, Floyd with a busted hand still isn't even all that hittable. Floyd's defensive skills are such that size may not even matter in this fight at all. It's just hard to tell.

[H2O Man]

56. Right.

Floyd would be in a tough position if he either enters the ring with a damaged hand, or hurts it during the fight. From my own experience, I can say that it is far worse to enter the ring with the unjury, than to hurt one's hand during the fight. From everything that has been reported, the Mayweather camp paid extra attention to keeping Floyd's hands from being injured.

It's going to be an interesting fight.

[Wetzelbill]

58. yeah if you get hurt during competition

adrenaline and other factors are involved.

I'm excited. It's a compelling matchup.

[H2O Man]

57. A few thoughts .....

{1} Some De La Hoya fans are saying that while Mayweather is considered the best "pound-for-pound" fighter today, that Oscar was widely recognized as being the p-f-p best a short while ago. This is fiction. Oscar has long been recognized as one of the very best of this generation. However, he has lost three of his three biggest fights. Tito, Sugar Shane (X2), and B-Hop all beat him. There was no in-between period where a serious case could be made that Oscar's victories over the other guys -- and Oscar has victories over very impressive warriors, to be sure -- could be made. Had he won 2 of the big three fights, it would be possible to make the case; for example, one could say Hopkins was simply too big. But Oscar lost 3 of 3, and even the passage of time doesn't change that.

{2} Legacies: a lot is being said about how the idea of "legacy" relates to each fighter tonight. It is an important issue. Oscar has been semi-retired for several years. But the loss to Hopkins haunts him. Those who are not Oscar fans have pointed out that a lack of heart cost him the Tito fight, and that he decided to punch the canvas as he was counted out against Hopkins, rather than get up and fight. Oscar is aware that he is not of the classic mold of Mexican fighters; to be blunt, the culture of Mexican boxing is best described as a "warrior society," and even the journeymen Mexican fighters are known for never backing down. Oscar knows that is a tactic that leads to long-term impairment.

Oscar wants to win a "super fight." In order to be ranked at the top level, he needs to win one. That is what led to his decision to fight a guy who just two years ago, he told people he wouldn't fight. Oscar told people he "didn't need to be chasing that guy around the ring." The thought of his legacy changed that.

Floyd Mayweather picked Oscar as a future opponent long, long ago. As his career has progressed, he always had a sense that destiny would bring him and Oscar together in a "super fight." In the past couple of years, he decided he would retire after a few more fights. He still is saying he will retire after this fight. If he wins, he likely will ..... although he has made clear that if Ricky Hatton wins his next fight, he will go to England to fight him. "Retirement" is not a well-defined concept for Floyd.

{3} A number of sports journalists are trying to identify what each guy's weaknesses are. And that is logical. Many fights are determined by one fighter exploiting another's weaknesses. That is an important part of sports.

Now, I enjoy other sports, but I only claim to have any knowledge of one: boxing. And in "super fights," there is something curious, that might not make sense on the surface. It relates, I think, to what the Chinese strategist Sun Tzu said about the key to success in warfare: "know your enemy and you will know yourself." A great fighter identifies his oppenent's greatest strength, and uses it against him in the ring. Study a Sugar Ray Robinson, a Muhammad Ali, or a Ray Leonard, and you will appreciate how they used an opponent's greatest strengths against them.

[Wetzelbill]

59. Do you think Hatton would give Floyd a fight?

He looked so-so against Collazo, who granted was a bad matchup for him, and I haven't seen it but I heard he looked awful against Urango, who is a fringe contender. I'm not sold on Hatton. For one thing, the guy lets himself get way too out of shape in between fights, I have heard he's rededicated himself, so hopefully, that won't hinder him anymore. Stamina wise Hatton is still fine, but getting out of shape and losing that much weight makes a fighter, or any other athlete sluggish. It's weird, but I'm a wrestler and used to cut tons of weight, but the only time it effected me was when I came into the season heavy. Being fat then just losing it all fast maybe put me a month off of my peak. Like I looked good and all physique wise, but I wasn't running on all cylinders yet. I think Hatton hurts himself badly in doing that. He hasn't looked like the machine who destroyed Tszyu ever since that fight. Not saying that he's lost it, I think he needs to rededicate himself to even give Mayweather a fight.

What I am interested to see, and I think you have a good point about attacking greatest strengths, is how Floyd deals with Oscar's size. I am not so sure that size and strength will be a factor, because it just may mean that Floyd is that much quicker than Oscar. 130 pounders couldn't even hit Floyd, and as far as I can tell he's as quick as ever, so I'm not sold that a 154 pound guy could hit him either. Oscar's size here is his advantage, but I have a feeling Floyd might use that against him. Baldomir couldn't have hit Mayweather with a baseball bat, let alone his fists, now Oscar is faster than Baldomir, but Mayweather is capable of making anybody look that bad. Even Oscar. Personally, I think Floyd might put on the performance of his life. I just have that feeling, and if he does, well, Oscar is going to look bad. You have to hit the guy to beat him, and I'm not sure Oscar will ever land anything significant. Floyd has uncanny defensive skills, probably even better than Willie Pepp or Pernell Whitaker. Oscar's a helluva fighter, but that's something he may not be able to overcome.

[H2O Man]

60. Hatton

is going to have difficulty getting by Castillo. He doesn't just put weight on between fights: he puts it on by drinking too much. Boxing's history is filled with guys who never reached (or maintained) their peak potential, because of lack of discipline. Hatton could be a great fighter, but it is becoming less and less likely.

Regarding Oscar's size and power: Almost all fighters have very specific "planes" where their power is the greatest. A great example was George Foreman -- Ali knew where he could hit the hardest, and where his power was reduced. I can remember listening to interviews with Dundee in the months before they fought, and realizing Ali would be able to beat him. Add to that plane a distance: some men punch very hard in close, others at a distance.

Oscar's power is a left hook, at shoulder level, when his opponent is moving towards him. Oscar tends to throw fast flurries of much less power moving forward. His right hand is a serious punch when he is set on his feet, but it needs to hit at his shoulder level.

Watch Sweet Pea Whitaker offset Oscar's power -- he does it by shifting his feet, dipping his knees, and bending at the waist. He hurt Oscar when De La Hoya moved in too fast, and he was not much of a puncher.

Oscar needs to either catch Floyd coming in, or use his size to push Mayweather off balance when he is bending at a lower level. When you push a guy, they almost always instinctively straightewn up to catch their balance. This, of course, will mean Oscar has to be able to land the jab. He'll need to double and triple his jab. But others have found that this results in Floyd's fast and sharp counter punches.

I'm looking forward to the fight card! I'm not sure how many people will show up. One guy who is coming is my son's friend, a 140 pounder, who is left-handed, and very fast and athletic. He wants me to train him to fight. Also, my good friend who posts as Mr. Baggins on DU is bringing his son, who may start fighting soon, too. "Mr. Baggins" won a handful of amateur titles when I trained him years ago. It'll be fun!

[Wetzelbill]

61. Ok, my final prediction

Even though I'm rooting for Oscar, I say Mayweather puts on the performance of his life, a gutsy, dazzling unanimous decision. That's my pick, I will stay with it, no matter what my reservations are. :)

I should add that it will be more exciting than most people think, and Oscar will make Floyd face some adversity. This is Floyd's night to prove how special he is, I have a feeling he'll do it.

[H2O Man]

62. I have been

thinking Floyd by 12 round decision. However, an associate has told me that after the 6th round, Mayweather may try to wear Oscar down, in order to stop him after the 10th.

I could also see Oscar winning. The anticipation is half the fun.

[Mabus]

63. I'm rooting for Oscar too

I'm more of a heavy weight boxing fan but my husband kept watching the HBO shows this past week and I got interested in this fight. They're both interesting men. I guess I'm rooting for Oscar because it just seems so nice. I got turned off with Mayweather's flashing money around.

We didn't think about ordering it until about half an hour ago but then decided it wasn't in our budget this month. If we had known it was going to cost so much we would have had a party to justify it.

[H2O Man]

66. Oscar seems nice.

The ESPN Classic show, re-played last night, touched on the issue of Oscar's paying off a woman in order to avoid a rape charge. His lawyer was quoted as saying that Oscar slept with so many women, he really couldn't be expected to keep track of them. Nice. I know that there were other similar issues for Oscar. I do not think that Oscar the man is much like Oscar's Golden Boy image.

[Mabus]

67. Thanks for that information

I didn't know about that. I gave up on keeping up with the lower weight classes in the mid-70's after I broke up with Sean "The Green Machine" O'Grady (my husband changes the channel whenever Sean shows up as a commentor.)

[H2O Man]

70. Sean .....

I've known him casually for years. I have always liked him, but our relationship was based entirely on the sport of boxing. That is interesting that you knew him ..... small world!

[Mabus]

91. I met him in Biology class

He was a couple of years ahead of me. I was in an AP Biology class at the same time he was using the lab and getting special instruction from the same teacher (Mrs. Brown). We dated briefly around the time Sean went pro. I remember he won/pruchased a corvette for himself and a Mustang (white with green stripes) for Rosie, his sister. I remember the corvette because that was the car he had when we dated. He was a real gentleman. No funny stuff. Sean probably doesn't even remember me. If you do see him, and you can work into the conversation, ask him about the American Indian (Arapaho) girl he dated briefly in high school.

It was an interesting school of sorts (Northwest Classen) because we had two classmates in the 1976 Olympics. One was Sean and the other was on the gymnastics team (I think her last name was Howard).

[H2O Man]

97. He has always

treated my sons very well. He has gone out of his way to be decent to them at events at the Hall of Fame and at different fight cards. I will probably get an opportunity to talk to him again in June. I used to call and e-mail him from time to time, but haven't in a few years. At the age you knew him, I think that his father tried to keep him focused on boxing. His dad was sometimes rigid, as many "boxing dads" are. Does that sound accurate, from what you remember?

[Mabus]

108. Yep

Sean was always a perfect gentleman. He was the kind of guy that would run and around the car to open my door, always pulled the chair out for me and, this was important to my dad, Sean always picked me up at the door and walked me to it at the end of the evening. He was very polite and an attentive listener. He's no dummy either. While I was in my biology class in the front of the room, he was off in a back room doing chemistry experiments. We were attending a public school and the science requirements for graduation were minimal. In other words, Sean didn't need to take a chemistry class to graduate. He was doing it because he wanted to. I think he had some advanced math classes that he was taking as well.

And to tell you the truth, Sean was probably the second guy I ever dated. I think he liked me because I didn't fawn over him like a lot of other girls. As I recall, both of us were rather naive and we stayed on our respective sides of the car. I think I was a sophomore and he was a senior, so there was an age difference too. I think you are right though. I think Sean's dad wanted him focused on boxing more than a social life. Sean could only go out on certain nights because of school and training, his diet was restricted because of weight restrictions and training, he couldn't stay out late because of training and his dad was pretty mindful of where he went. I don't think I'd say Sean's life (or his dad) were rigid as much as I think his life was regimented. I think Sean's dad wanted him to have a regimented life because he wanted Sean to stay out of trouble, make the most of his abilities and lead a good, clean life. I don't blame him and I understand it. My dad was Marine DI for a while and, when he was on his game, he could move mountains.

fwiw, there was no big break up. We just stopped seeing each other. He had a fight coming up and went into training for that. He didn't ask me out again afterward but there were never any hard feelings. We'd still say "hi" to each other and talk in the hallway. He graduated and we never ran into each other again.

He was a sweetheart though. That's what I'll always remember.

[doublethink]

79. Oh so that's why he lost the fight tonight?

:eyes: .. a little pre-judgmental there are we? :rofl: all in fun ...... Oscar Won. peace. :)

[H2O Man]

87. Nope.

It's the same thing that I've said about Oscar for many years.

[Admiral Loinpresser]

64. Is there anywhere on the Net to get updates

in real time, or round-by-round on the fight?

[H2O Man]

65. Possibly on

SecondsOut.Com.

I may be able to post "updates" here, too.

[Mabus]

68. That would be great

I'll tell the Admiral (a.k.a. my husband).

[H2O Man]

69. Mayweather

by split decision. He really won it convincingly; people here had it 9-3 and 10-2. The De La Hoya fans saw it 9-3 for Mayweather, as I did. Others saw it slightly more in Floyd's favor.

[doublethink]

71. Love ya man but your full of bullshit on this fight.

When did Mayweather tag De La Hoya? Give me a break ..... a big fricking break. De La Hoya hunted him down for the first 5 or 6 rounds ..... and then what? :Wtf: I call bullshit. Peace. :)

[H2O Man]

72. Ha!

Ha-ha!

[Wetzelbill]

73. My dad said Mayweather

everybody else back home who watched it thought Oscar. I watched it online, didn't get good enough visuals to really say, but it sounded like Mayweather by what the announcers were saying. But much tighter than 9-3 or 10-2. I'll have to watch the tape and see what I think.

[doublethink]

78. Please watch it on tape and get back to us .......

without the announcers perspectives ...... I guess Mayweather is under contract to HBO ... ? .... Ya Think? Bullshit. Oscar won easily. Peace. :)

[Awsi Dooger]

74. I had Mayweather winning 8-4

Admittedly I gave most of the close rounds to Mayweather but no way can I see Oscar with 6+ rounds unless you gave him a handicap, like ignoring his worst 30 seconds of each round.

But I came away from this fight with a lesser opinion of Mayweather. He lost some rounds cleanly and didn't dictate or hurt Oscar as I expected.

And I still have no idea how this fight is described as the biggest in 20 years, or whatever. I've been in Las Vegas since the mid '80s and the atmosphere or anticipation wasn't among the top dozen fights I can remember. And that's being very conservative. I could easily have written 30+. Very few people were talking about the fight in the sportsbooks. The true mega fights capture this town for weeks, to the point you basically can't enter the sportsbooks on the day of the fight. There was nothing approaching that today.

ESPN just said biggest fight of the year, or in the last 5 years. That's more approaching reality although 5 years is still a big stretch.

[doublethink]

76. Bullshit.

Peace. :hi:

[sandnsea]

77. Close rounds go to the champion

Oscar set the pace and style of the fight. You said it yourself, Mayweather didn't dictate or hurt the CHAMPION - consequently he can't be given those close rounds. If people went back and remembered how to score a championship fight, Oscar would win without question. People gave Mayweather rounds on the expectation that he would bring more power later, which he didn't really do.

[H2O Man]

83. Championship fights

are scored exactly like every other fight.

[sandnsea]

93. If champion quit meaning anything

It used to mean the challenger had to convincingly take the belt, not be given all the close rounds so that the hard-core boxing fans could take another bite out of Oscar.

[H2O Man]

98. There is not

a single boxing commission that has ever had that as a rule. It is one of the half-truths that tends to confuse people who do not know how boxing matches are scored. But it brings us back to an obvious example: Ray Leopnard beat Marvin Haglar, and took his title, and he surely wasn't the aggressive fighter.

"Aggression" is one-half of what scores points -- the first half being "effective." A fighter must show what is known as "effective aggression." Equally important is "ring generalship." Mayweather was more impressive in his ring generalship, than Oscar was in his aggressiveness. In fact, as Teddy Atlas noted, Oscar fought the wrong fight. His being aggressive cost him the fight.

[sandnsea]

100. Do you have a thought of your own?

Or are you just going to repeat rationalizations for a decision that was so clearly bullshit to any objective observer.

Being effective 5 times in a fight has never outweighed a champion setting the pace and tactics. That's like saying 5 lucky punches can win. That's crazy. Effective means it changes the tactics of the fighter getting hit, and Mayweather's punches didn't do that except in the last few rounds.

Ray Leonard is the classic example of an Oscar-like fighter out-boxing the puncher. Mayweather didn't execute that kind of fight at all. The Leonard-Hagler fight did not remotely compare to what we saw last night at all. People are really reaching to justify their obvious Mayweather bias.

And I never said there was a rule about championship scoring, just that it's always been a given in boxing. Except when there's some money to be made with whatever hype Mayweather is going to get with his five titles, and rematch, or however they're going to play this out.

[H2O Man]

103. You are a clown.

You don't have even a shallow grasp of how boxing is scored. The proof is in the pudding: you parrot a tired old line, and you only have it half-right. You've watched boxing on tv. Gosh. I'm afraid that doesn't compare to my experience.

[sandnsea]

107. Resorting to name-calling

Because you don't have any facts. You know dear, I already went through this with my husband this morning and he did the exact same thing. Because he can't justify Mayweather's win either.

[trumad]

131. you're out of your league sandnsea....

and you're acting like a fool.

[sandnsea]

132. Hey, tell it to Kaczmarek

I've made my case repeatedly, I know what I'm talking about, and this jackass resorting to name-calling doesn't prove shit. And you piling on won't either.

It's not as if I'm the only person in the entire world who saw the fight the way I did - or even in a small minority. LOTS of people saw it the way I did, and there is absolutely no reason for the lot of you to be so fucking disrespectful.

[H2O Man]

136. We were having

a decent conversation until you were dishonest. I called Floyd Sr. a "bum." You then said that I call everyone who disagrees with me a bum. Simply not true. I think that sincere, honest, and intelligent fans can think Oscar won. They are entitled to their opinion.

However, it is clear that Floyd Sr is not on this forum. I'm not calling him a bum for disagreeing with me. I am calling him that because of the way he has conducted his life. I assume you are aware, for but one example, of the incident where he got shot. Nice guy.

We have also disagreed regarding how fights are scored. I pointed out -- correctly -- what the rules are. You have insisted that something that is not a rule, is. You are wrong on that. As far as your opinion on the punches thrown and landed, the punch stats show that Mayweather was by far the more accurate of the two.

Reading the numerous newspaper and internet accounts, and watching ESPN etc, it is obvious that the majority of the journalists etc knew that Mayweather won .... for exactly the reasons that I have outlined to you. I do not see anyone mentioning the points you raise.

After you mentioned that your son boxed, I have tried to be polite. Not because I like you, or agree with what you are saying. I've listed numerous examples of guys winning the title by ring generalship -- such as Ali's third championship. It's not something that is really open to debate.

[sandnsea]

133. Here's the scorecard

If Roth had given the 12th round to Oscar, the way the other two judges did, the fight would have been a draw. How can I be so out of my league when the scorecards don't even match what these guys are saying. The cards of Roth and Kaczmarek are actually closer than Giampa, indicating Giampa is the outliar, not the people who didn't think Mayweather had won.

[trumad]

134. If

Yeah--and if pigs could fly your car windshield would be covered with pig shit. I said you're out of your league when you claimed that that H20 man doesn't have his facts.

You're in a small minority thinking Oscar won----you do know that don't you?

[sandnsea]

135. He's not relying on facts

He's relying on name-calling. That's what I said.

So are you saying the minority is always wrong? Was the minority wrong on WMD in 2002?

The scorecards tell the story. Two judges agreed about 90% of the way, in Oscar's favor. The remaining judge was the outliar. All these arguments to justify Mayweather's win don't match the actual fight. Look at Oscar's face after the fight. Mayweather did NO damage.

It's truly been exactly like watching the Bushies pretend they're winning in Iraq.

[H2O Man]

137. Floyd won.

Oscar lost. It's that simple.

[sandnsea]

139. Everybody can stop thinking now

We'll just let you be the decider from here on out.

[trumad]

140. The decider?

H2O man didn't decide the fight...

[sandnsea]

142. Three judges did

Only one saw it the way H2OMAN did.

[H2O Man]

144. Sad.

It's really pathetic when someone refuses to admit that they are wrong. Mayweather won, because two judges had him winning. Ha!

[sandnsea]

145. Look at the scorecard

Only one judge had the fight lopsided the way you do.

Roth gave the last round to Mayweather, which is clearly bullshit.

His card otherwise matched Kaczmarek's, except for one other round.

Two cards were in 90% agreement.

The card that gave Mayweather the lopsided win was clearly wrong.

What's sad is that you can't admit that ONE card was the mistake.

[H2O Man]

147. One was a mistake.

He gave it to Oscar. The other two are the only ones that mattered.

[sandnsea]

148. Round by round

Go ahead and try to make that argument.

You can't.

[H2O Man]

149. I have no need to.

Mayweather won. Hence, there is no need for me to "argue' anything. Ha-ha-ha!

[Awsi Dooger]

111. The Leonard/Hagler fight is an excellent example

I thought of it long before H20 Man mentioned it. Same basic dynamic, a fight with many close rounds but properly won by the fighter landing more clean blows, and not merely coming forward, swinging at air.

Obviously it's not a perfect parallel. Hagler was very tentative and inactive in the early rounds of that fight, allowing Leonard to steal them.

I attended that Leonard/Hagler fight in '87. Now that was a true mega fight that captured this town for months. The sportsbooks had the odds front and center even during college basketball season because there was such runaway interest. This time the odds weren't even on the main board at most joints until the past couple of weeks. You had to get a betting sheet and find the odds. On fight night in '87 Caesar's Palace was jammed. Only VIPs had access to many areas of the casino. They had such overflow interest they opened the huge ballrooms and put in Pay Per View screens even on the site where the fight itself was being held. Nothing comparable last night. I guess we're supposed to have incompetent memories and forget all of that, and describe this one as the biggest fight of all time simply based on expanding Pay Per View availability and a great job of promoting the fight.

Anyway, I scored the fight round to round with no expectation of what would happen later. I had a bet on Mayweather to win by decision, which I think I mentioned as the most likely outcome in this thread a month or more ago. But I bet virtually every day, and have for more than two decades, so I'm not letting my wager cloud the judgment. I'm simply not going to give rounds to a guy coming forward and missing. And in a fight like this the champion dynamic is out the window. Mayweather has every bit the stature if not the name recognition as De La Hoya. Hell, Mayweather is the current pound for pound champ. It was a mere technicality that they were fighting at De La Hoya's weight class and for his belt. Actually, it should have been a technicality but based on the close scoring De La Hoya did receive a strange and undeserved benefit of a doubt, similar to the one moron judge who had him leading Bernard Hopkins before getting knocked out in '04. I talked to many of my boxing fan friends/bettors here today and none of them had De La Hoya with more than 4 rounds.

[sandnsea]

113. That was no Leonard/Hagler fight

That comparison just annoys the hell out of me, that was a great fight. All my boxing fan friends/relatives/Mayweather lovers agree that that is just silly. In no stretch did Mayweather compare to Leonard last night. As I said below, there is a huge difference between shifting a fight with a defensive, counter-punching strategy - and just laying back and avoiding defeat. I did not see Mayweather shifting those rounds individually or cumulatively. Oscar slowing down in the last couple of rounds was all Oscar, had nothing to do with any skill from Mayweather.

I also disagree that Oscar wasn't connecting. One look at Mayweather's face proves that to be wrong.

You do make a point on Mayweather's stature, and the fact that they were fighting at Oscar's weight.

Old-school boxing fans wanted Mayweather to win. They like his style and personality better. That is all.

[TSIAS]

115. George Foreman used to say this a lot

The only place it applies is that the challenger has to win to take the belt from the champ. If a fight is ruled a draw, the champion retains the title.

Harold Lederman puts it this way on his telecasts:

1) Effective aggression
2) Ring generalship
3) Clean punching
4) Defense... With a strong emphasis on clean, effective punching.


Nowhere in there is a deference to the champion winning close rounds. In this fight, DLH characterized "ineffective aggression". While he was moving forward a lot of the time, he didn't really land a lot of substance. There was little doubt that the clean, scoring blows were landed more frequently by Mayweather.

And in today's boxing, being the "Champion" isn't worth a hill of beans. I doubt if most people knew what organization and weight class DLH held the "title" in. (154, WBC)

I always thought that judges, in all fights, were essentially supposed to leave predisposed notions behind before judging the fight. In reality, whether it's Mayweather vs. De La Hoya, or Clubfighter 1 vs. Clubfighter 2, you esssentially judge bouts on basic criteria.

[H2O Man]

117. While it is true

that George has said it, it is a fact that there is no "rule" in boxing that states a challenger must be aggressive in order to take the title from a champion. None. Zero. The simple fact is that the winner of the fight is the winner of the fight.

[sandnsea]

122. So let's see

Agression didn't count in this fight. Setting the pace didn't count. Putting the man on the ropes didn't count. Bruising and swelling the man's eyes didn't count.

The only thing that counted was the challenger hitting the target a few times, even though it did nothing to disrupt the champion's fight plan. Little pitty-pat taps are enough to take a belt these days, is that what you're saying?

I haven't seen, or heard, a bigger load of bullshit since the refs won Superbowl XL.

[H2O Man]

123. Way wrong.

The punch-stats showed that Mayweather landed significantly more punches than De La Hoya.

It is your opinion that Oscar set the pace. I disagree. There are reasonable people who agree with your stance; however, not only do more people think that Mayweather set the pace, but the people who count do. Mayweather won.

Only one of the two men was knocked backwards from a solid blow. That was Oscar, when he walked into Floyd's right hand. Ha!

As I had stated before the fight, on this very thread, Oscar does not punch hard moving forward. He threw lots of pitty-pat punches. They do not count for much.

Neither man has explosive power. But Oscar did stop throwing jabs for a reason: Floyd was banging him with counter punches. Oscar did land some good shots, as well. But not enough to win many rounds, much less the fight.

[sandnsea]

126. Reasonable people agree with my stance

So why don't you just let it go at that instead of attacking me personally.

Oscar punched hard. Mayweather's eyes are the proof of it.

I cannot explain the punch stats, I really do not understand what those people were looking at, which is true of almost everybody I know. Including my son who boxed for 5 years and doesn't even like De La Hoya.

[TSIAS]

127. Okay

Floyd did exactly what he had to do to win this fight. He respected DLH enough not to take big risks. Mayweather doesn't have the temperment of a fighter that goes for the knockout. In the later rounds, DLH totally abandoned his jab and let Mayweather take over the fight.

From a scoring philosophy, I understand the idea that professional fights are judged differently than amatuer bouts. I just don't think Oscar did enough damage with the blows he landed. If I thought he had really hurt Mayweather in the close rounds, I might have given him more credit.

Putting the man on the ropes a couple of times a round doesn't mean that DLH was being effective. Yes, he was the man moving forward. But I kept on seeing Floyd control the pace for the majority of the rounds. DLH fans are making it seem like their fighter was landing bludgeoning blows, while Mayweather was feather-fisted. I think Mayweather did land punches of substance. If not, why did Oscar abandon his left jab down the stretch.

[sandnsea]

129. This isn't about knockout power

It's about effective blows. In one sentence you say Mayweather didn't take risks and go for the knockout-type power punches (no, not all power punches are knockout punches), in the next you give him those rounds because Oscar didn't do damage. It doesn't make any sense. If Mayweather did no more damage than Oscar, then Oscar gets the rounds as the champion - and that does matter and would matter if this were any other fighter except Oscar.

I never said Oscar was landing bludgeoning blows. I said you can't take a fight from a champion with a couple of targeted punches that do no damage.

I don't know why Oscar dropped his jab down the stretch, maybe he thought he'd done enough to win, didn't want to wear himself out and run out of gas in the last round.

[doublethink]

80. Where the fuck did your get this comment H2O Man?

"The De La Hoya fans saw it 9-3 for Mayweather" ..... a link would be greatly appreciated. No really .... :wtf: are you talking about here? Link please ..... waiting. :eyes: I didn't think so ...

[H2O Man]

84. Pretty easy one.

Maybe if you read what I wrote: I had a large group of people in my home. Some wanted Mayweather. Some wanted De La Hoya. Not a single person here thought Oscar won more than three rounds. What part of that is so confusing to you, that you have to resort to your silly, snarling rant?

[trumad]

89. doublethink is seeing doublevision right now

Come on---he's blasted and we all know how a partisan acts like when they are three sheet to the wind.

[H2O Man]

90. Yep.

De La Hoya fans have a good reason to drink until they reach the point they can channel the spirit of Floyd Sr. And we have a couple of them among us.

Maybe they didn't appreciate what the Champ wore into the ring for his fight against poor Oscar?

[nolabels]

75. "The World Awaits" for a rematch!

The more you pay - the more of it they will bring you :shrug:

[Stephist]

81. I couldn't Buy the fight but

I figure if the cards were that close Floyd must have won 9 or 10 rounds. Tell me how Golden Boy loses a fight promoted by Golden Boy and gets robed? I finally found a phrase that makes me cringe more than "another black eye for boxing"! and if I hear the phrase "The fight to save boxing" one more time I will scream. There will be boxing matches after this one and most likely better ones, though this one sounded pretty good, Boxing isn't going to die. Just because something isn't peaking in America doesn't mean it's dying. Look at the crowds at the crowds at Joe Calzaghe fights or Ricky Hatton fights and tell me Boxing is dying.

One thing I give Oscar credit for is he promotes his own fights. He doesn't give his money to that funky haired criminal. Maybe I am in the minority but I like the sport of Boxing and I would continue to like it if the fight tonight was a dog. I don't know what this fight will do for the sport why would a casual fan pay $55 for a sport he/she doesn't really care for? But I am just as much a fan of the sport tonight as I was last night and just as much as I will be tomorrow and I don't apologize for it.

[H2O Man]

85. Both Teddy Atlas

and Max Kellerman said Floyd won it by a wide margin. And Teddy was expecting Oscar to win. 9-3 is fair. Saying that Oscar won more than 3 rounds isn't.

[Stephist]

82. And The Fact That Oscar's fan base is whining so bad

leads me to believe even more that your 9-3/10-2 score card is almost certainly correct.

[H2O Man]

86. Somewhere on this

thread I had said that after the fight, the Oscar fans and those with only a shallow understanding of the sport would be sputtering mad, insisting that poor Oscar got robbed. Reading some of the nonsense they are coming out has me laughing so hard that my sides hurt .... but not as bad as Oscar's are hurting him this morning.

[Colobo]

94. I had Floyd winning 8 rounds to 4

A very interesting fight in which Mayweather dictated the pace, landed the cleaner punches and simply outboxed DLH.

[sandnsea]

96. Oh bull, Oscar dictated the pace

How in the freaking hell can Mayweather dictate the pace from the ropes??

[H2O Man]

99. Ring generalship.

People who are familiar with how fights are scored recognize that ring generalship is as important as effective aggressiveness. Oscar displayed a heaping amount of ineffective aggression. Those who are confused in their thinking assume that mere aggression scores points. How silly: they would have John Ruiz beating Roy Jones, because Ruiz walked foreward.

[sandnsea]

102. Mayweather was on the ropes

You cannot dictate a fight laying on the ropes. Ali didn't win rounds with rope-a-dope, he wore Foreman out. I have never seen such a bunch of rationalizations about a fight and why the loser won. This is really incredible.

[H2O Man]

105. Way wrong.

Ali absolutely won rounds on the ropes. Wilfred Benitez did. Lots of fighters do. You don't have a clue what you are talking about.

[sandnsea]

109. Generally not

Ali had an 8 round knock-out, a distincitve shift in the fight. Not a couple of rounds that went the other way at the end. Mayweather was just not executing a counter-punching, technical fight. It is just bullshit to say he was. In comparison to the real greats, Mayweather sucked. You should be ashamed to make the comparisons.

[H2O Man]

119. Ha!

Mayweather won. Ha-ha-ha!

[sandnsea]

110. Here's what you're selling

Let's play pretend. Jimmy Wilde gets in the ring with Jack Johnson. Because Jimmy Wilde bops around the ring and gets in some strategic blows, that counts as winning even though he never did a bit of damage??

Leonard, Whitaker, Pep - their strategy was effective because the punches did damage. Not just because they strategically hit the target. Mayweather's punches didn't do anything until the last few rounds. He didn't deserve to win the early rounds because his strategy did NOTHING to change the pace or course of the fight.

[H2O Man]

118. You make many

silly errors. Let's try something simple, that you might understand: if one basketball team takes a lot of shots that miss, and the other takes fewer shots, but they score, the team with the most points from "points scored" wins. Are you able to understand that?

[sandnsea]

121. It's boxing, not basketball

The point doesn't score unless it's effective. Effective isn't just hitting the target, it requires some measure of damage. Mayweather didn't do any, all you have to do is look at Oscar's face to know that. Look at Mayweather's eyes at the end of the fight when it's replayed. You'll see who did the damage.

People who hate Oscar saw what they wanted to see.

[H2O Man]

124. Wrong again.

You simply do not know what you are talking about when it comes to scoring a fight. People who don't know how to score a fight aren't in a position to bluff those who do.

[sandnsea]

125. I've scored fights

Please stop telling me I don't know what I'm talking about just because you disagree with me. One of the judges saw the fight the way I did, so you're really just being an asshole when you choose to attack me instead of sticking to the fight.

[H2O Man]

128. I'm not attacking you.

I am laughing at the things you are saying, though. I think you are funny. Your name-calling is a giggle. And, I've already pointed out the important facts about the fight. Floyd won. Oscar lost. You might not think that is funny, but it brings a big smile to my face.

[sandnsea]

130. oh brother, just grow up

What next, are you going to stick your fingers in your ears and dance around the room singing "neener neener neener".

:eyes:

[H2O Man]

138. No.

I'm crippled, and can't dance well any more.

[H2O Man]

88. From the OP:

"Most sports fans today want blood and gore, and do not appreciate a master boxer who understands "hit and don’t get hit." Willie Pep wouldn’t be a big PPV attraction After 12 rounds, the casual fans may feel that Oscar won, much as they thought Marvin beat Sugar Ray. ...."

Yeah, I guess I had that right.

[Mabus]

92. I'll get to see the fights next week

when HBO puts them in the regular line-up. From the ESPN reports, which was basically their scoring, it sounded like a closer fight than what those who saw it indicate. Truth is, I like the heavy weight divison better. If it had been a Klitscko fight last night we probably would have coughed up the bucks.

btw, how were the undercard fights?

[sandnsea]

95. Here's the fight

First 7 rounds. Oscar set the pace and game, jabs and a few combinations, backed Floyd up consistently. Floyd got in some solid punches, although not many that stopped Oscar or even moved his head. The Oscar haters chose to give all those rounds to Floyd, based on power punches which were generally blocked or not all that powerful. Floyd had the swollen eyes at the end, Oscar was clean.

The later rounds, Floyd took. The last round was action packed, could have went either way.

The boxing fan who wants to see power punches and nothing more, chose Mayweather. The boxing fan who appreciates technical skill and strategy, chose Oscar.

I've been watching boxing for 25 years because my husband and 2 sons watch it. I generally could care less who wins. H2OMan is really showing his biases in this fight, as did my husband. A lot of commentators did. However, Floyd's own father said the fight could have easily gone to Oscar, which really says it all.

[H2O Man]

101. Floyd Sr

isn't a commentator. He's a bum. The HBO and ESPN commentators made clear they believed Floyd won convincingly.

[sandnsea]

104. What??

Wow. Anybody who disagrees with you is a bum??

[H2O Man]

106. No.

You're being a clown. But Floyd Sr is a bum.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

112. Was Mayweather's victory as razor thin as the judges had it?

I didn't see the fight. But according to the judges, one had it 115-113 De La Hoya. Another had it 116-112 Mayweather. And a third judge had it 115-113 Mayweather.

That's an extremely narrow victory for Mayweather, virtually as mathematically thin as it gets. If the third judge had given just one round to De La Hoya instead of to Mayweather, it would have been a draw.

Just one round on one judge's card gave Mayweather the victory. I didn't see the fight, as mentioned. To anyone who did see it, did you see it that extremely close? If so, do you think a rematch is in order, as it usually is when one fighter barely eeks out a win in a very celebrated confrontation?

[TSIAS]

114. It wasn't that close

I had at 9-3 for Floyd Mayweather, Jr. I was much more in line with Harold Lederman's card than the rest of the HBO crew. There were a couple of rounds that Lampley thought DLH won that weren't even close. He called Rd9 "one of the hardest rounds to score". However, I thought it was one of the easier rounds that Mayweather won.

Floyd personified ring generalship in the fight. Basically, he came in and fought the fight he had planned to. I don't like Mayweather's style, personally. I really dislike his personality and don't consider him a big money attraction in the sport. However, he had pinpoint accuracy, even though DLH outpunched him overall.

There was one sequence that summed up the fight to me. It was early on and DLH had Floyd against the ropes. DLH must have thrown a dozen left hooks to Mayweather's body. The commentators went wild, and said it was DLH's best body work in years. But I noticed that Floyd was blocking most of the shots with his elbows. Oscar was able to apply the pressure, but not frequently enough to take the close rounds.

Admittedly, my scorecard might seem a bit wide. I'll have to re-watch it on my Tivo to see if I see anything different. Basically, it wasn't a total blowout as a typical 9-3 fight. Some judges might have preferred Oscar's few outbursts of aggression each round to Floyd's overall command of the ring. Like H20Man, I gave most of the close rounds to Floyd. I didn't think Oscar did enough damage to merit him winning the round over Floyd's effective ring generalship.

I don't see a need for a rematch. I felt the hype was a bit overrated from the outset. The reason it got so much attention is that so few top fighters are willing to fight each other anymore. It'll end up coming down to the money. Oscar got $25 million, with Floyd garnering a $10 million purse. Still, I don't see Mayweather making any more money than he got in this fight. If he wants to, a move up in weight to fight Jermain Taylor or Edison Miranda would be interesting. But I'm not sure if maybe 150 is as high as Floyd can effectively fight.

I didn't see this as a very competitive fight. I was thoroughly shocked to go online after the fight and read people saying Oscar had won. I can see Oscar winning 5 rounds if he won every single round that was close. However, it's hard to fathom him winning 7 out of 12, as Judge Tom Kaczmarek scored it.

[H2O Man]

120. If either man

continues boxing, they would seem to have limited options. Oscar can't demand as big a fee for a return match, and it's clear that he can not beat the younger, faster Mayweather. He doesn't want to or need to compete against the young warriors who are reaching the top in the jr.- and middleweight division.

Floyd has said that even if he reires, he'll go to England to spank Ricky Hatton. That would be a money-maker for him. But it is uncertain if Hatton will be undefeated after his next fight.

Weight-wise, Oscar is becoming a true middleweight. He entered the ring at the top of that weight class, while Floyd is really a welterweight.

The one fight that might motivate Floyd would be Sugar Shane Mosley. I think that he has the best chance of giving Floyd a real fight at this point. It wouldn't appeal to the casual fan, but for those who appreciate the "sweet science," it would be a fascinating match-up.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

116. Thanks for the observation - I'm looking forward to seeing the fight

when they rebroadcast it to see who's right here: those who say Mayweather absolutely dominated De La Hoya and hit him with big shots at will, those who say De La Hoya was blocking most of Mayweather's shots and was the principal aggressor who made the fight, or the judges scorecards which had Mayweather barely ekking out a win overall.

ON EDIT: Sorry, I meant to respond to the last post by TSIAS, not to you, H20 Man. I guess complete mental incompetency is setting in on me.

[TSIAS]

141. Ringtalk article

I saw this piece that sort of outlined the reasons that Mayweather won the fight.

After reading a lot online from fans, I'm actually thinking that there could be a rematch. After the I watched the fight, I figured the fight was clear enough and lacked a reason for rematch. But after reading the controversy, I think enough DLH fans want a rematch and it could probably do well financially.

http://ringtalk.com/index.php?action=fullnews&showcomments=1&id=1319

-snip-

Because one judge (Tom Kaczmarek) gaffed and pulled a “homer,” and De La Hoya being the most popular “figure” in boxing today, the decision has been deemed, “controversial.” If you look at the numbers provided by CompuBox, the 116-112 scores put forth by myself, HBO’s Harold Lederman and ESPN’s Dan Rafael, not to mention one official jurist, Chuck Giampa, were not off the mark.

LET’S LOOK AT THE NUMBERS AFTER 12

In totality, Oscar De La Hoya threw 587 punches, of which 122 made contact, and 82 were “power” shots (24 %). In jabs, Oscar landed 40 of 246 jabs (16 %). According to the bean counters supreme, that’s a 21% connect rate. Floyd’s numbers: 481 in total, with 207 landing for a 43% success rate. Of the 240 jabs hurled, 60 hit home (29 %). In power punches, Floyd bonked Oscar 138 times, this out of 241 attempts (57%).

ADVANTAGES CLEARLY INDICATE SUPREMACY

Landing 93-more times, not taking any significant punches, Mayweather was fighting a bigger and determined man. When one looks at the tape and the way Floyd dictated the pace with blinding fast punches, I actually think my scorecard should have given Floyd a 9-3 edge in rounds (117-111). People, look at the fight again, turn off the sound and watch “ring generalship” at it’s very best.

[H2O Man]

143. Right.

9 to 3 is fair.

[sandnsea]

146. Roth & Kaczmarek's cards matched

It's posted up above. Go look at it, round by round. They match. They aren't the 'homers'.

[TSIAS]

150. I’ll go through my card

Honestly, I'm not a big fan of how any of these judges scored the fights. If anything, I'd expect bias towards DLH since he's the big money draw and was promoting the event.

Round 1) Mayweather… No dispute on any cards
2) DLH… Unanimous round for Mayweather. After 2, it’s probably 19-19 on most people’s cards.
3) Mayweather… Roth and Kaczmarek do disagree. Still, the closest round so far.
4) Mayweather… I think this was the round when DLH had Mayweather on the ropes and threw a dozen body shots. I didn’t think they were that decisive. Another unanimous round for DLH.
5) Mayweather… Best round for Mayweather. The only time I saw a fighter stunned was DLH by a PBF right lead.
6) DLH… All three judges went for PBF, but myself (and I think Lederman) had it for Oscar.
7) DLH… Probably the best DLH round.
8) Mayweather… Another split round
9) Mayweather… Another split round
10) Mayweather…Ditto
11) Mayweather… Unanimous
12) 10-10

Overall, I had it 117-112 for Floyd. I read the scorecards and did see a lot of divergent rounds. I guess maybe they had a different scoring philosophy than me. In the end, I ended up giving almost all the closer rounds to PBF. While he wasn’t as dominating as we’re used to seeing him, Floyd easily won a minimum of 8 rounds.

I’ll go back and rewatch the fight later tonight. I couldn’t find the official Round-by-Round Compubox stats for the entire fight. But overall, it looked like every time I saw the stats that Floyd was around 50 % accuracy, nearly doubling DLH.

[sandnsea]

151. 2 judges, 10 rounds matched

Not divergent at all.

Except for the judge who landslided Mayweather.