What Makes People Gay?

[kweerwolf]

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/magazine/articles/2005/08/14/what_makes_people_gay?mode=PF

With crystal-blue eyes, wavy hair, and freshly scrubbed faces, the boys look as though they stepped out of a Pottery Barn Kids catalog. They are 7-year-old twins. I'll call them Thomas and Patrick; their parents agreed to let me meet the boys as long as I didn't use their real names.

<snip>

Patrick exhibits behavior called childhood gender nonconformity, or CGN. This doesn't describe a boy who has a doll somewhere in his toy collection or tried on his sister's Snow White outfit once, but rather one who consistently exhibits a host of strongly feminine traits and interests while avoiding boy-typical behavior like rough-and-tumble play. There's been considerable research into this phenomenon, particularly in males, including a study that followed boys from an early age into early adulthood. The data suggest there is a very good chance Patrick will grow up to be homosexual. Not all homosexual men show this extremely feminine behavior as young boys. But the research indicates that, of the boys who do exhibit CGN, about 75 percent of them - perhaps more - turn out to be gay or bisexual.

What makes the case of Patrick and Thomas so fascinating is that it calls into question both of the dominant theories in the long-running debate over what makes people gay: nature or nurture, genes or learned behavior. As identical twins, Patrick and Thomas began as genetic clones. From the moment they came out of their mother's womb, their environment was about as close to identical as possible - being fed, changed, and plopped into their car seats the same way, having similar relationships with the same nurturing father and mother. Yet before either boy could talk, one showed highly feminine traits while the other appeared to be "all boy," as the moms at the playgrounds say with apologetic shrugs.

<snip>

Proving people are born gay would give them wider social acceptance and better protection against discrimination, many gay rights advocates argue. In the last decade, as this "biological" argument has gained momentum, polls find Americans - especially young adults - increasingly tolerant of gays and lesbians. And that's exactly what has groups opposed to homosexuality so concerned. The Family Research Council, a conservative Christian think tank in Washington, D.C., argues in its book Getting It Straight that finding people are born gay "would advance the idea that sexual orientation is an innate characteristic, like race; that homosexuals, like African-Americans, should be legally protected against 'discrimination;' and that disapproval of homosexuality should be as socially stigmatized as racism. However, it is not true."

[msongs]

1. it's god's will..... nt

[China_cat]

2. If they are 'mirror image' identical twins

then wouldn't it make sense that one would be gay?

Strictly an anecdote but I know a set of mirror image adult twins where one is heterosexual and the other isn't.

[Ian David]

4. Is it the gay or the straight one that's The Evil Twin?

Or is that just in the movies?

[China_cat]

9. They're both weird. And lovable.

[Gildor Inglorion]

7. I know a set of mirror-image twins, too...

and they're both straight.

[G2099]

3. Rebellion against the Status Quo

Sometimes i think kids look at the status quo of what men have to do to get a women and say they will not be a part of it and just go the other way. Just a thought.

[Goldom]

6. I doubt a 7 year old

even knows what Status Quo means, let alone is purposefully rebelling against it..

[Gildor Inglorion]

5. I can't speak for these twins, but I was BORN gay

I've never felt any other way for as long as I can remember, and I certainly didn't LEARN it in the repressive 1950's.

[soothsayer]

12. Me, too! But in the '60's.

[despairing optimist]

8. Giving behavior a label pathologizes it

I'm getting mixed signals here. First, I read of CGN, and then I'm supposed to believe that since Patrick was born that way he'll receive wider social acceptance? I think the reaction would be more like, "Great. We know about CGN. Now if we can only figure out what went wrong . . ." Check out the DNA via amniocentesis to make sure that CGN gene isn't there, and mom can carry to term.

Science is a double-edged sword, sadly, and the Josef Mengeles of the world are still out there. Some will want to use understanding homosexuality as an excuse to isolate and eliminate it. I'm not with that program. Sorry.

[Kenroy]

10. an in-born trait isn't necessarily genetic

there are many reasons why a trait can be in-born, genetics being only one of them.

[despairing optimist]

13. Perhaps, but the search will continue to try to root out the trait,

whatever its origin, if it isn't considered "normal." It's the normal people who have made the world what it is today and put it on the edge of the abyss. The association of normal with moral rectitude may be humanity's worst fault. Science should pursue this matter, don't get me wrong, but I fear that the knowledge will be used for political ends.

[HockeyMom]

11. That is strange with Identical Twins

My sister-in-law has fraternal twins: a girl and a boy. The girl, who is now married and a mother, was never what most people would call a "girly" girl though. Her twin brother, who is gay, always was the more "feminine" of the two. They also have an older sister who is also gay. So, out of 4 kids, my sister-in-law had two gay kids and two straight kids (youngest daughter is straight).

I have one straight daughter and one gay daughter. I had an Aunt who was gay and my husband had an Uncle who was gay. There has never been any question that daughters run in both our families. I guess gays do also.

[TechBear_Seattle]

14. (Humor) Can't resist....

Grafitti on a men's room wall: My mother made me a homosexual!

Written underneath by someone else: If I buy the yarn, can she make one for me?

[wli]

15. IMHO it doesn't matter

Personal choice or genetic destiny, personal freedom means the government stays the Hell out of your bedroom and you can marry whoever you want.

Countering the religous reich's propaganda is another matter entirely.

[Democrats_win]

18. That's right. They'll still have arguments against gays.

All they have to say is God told me so. We are not part of their world, we're free and America is about freedom.

[Ayesha]

16. Another theory

I read about a study that found that women who took thyroid medication or diet pills while pregnant are more likely to have lesbian daughters.

Link:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1389841,00.html

FWIW, my mother had her thyroid removed as a teen due to cancer, and took high doses of thyroid medications...and here I am, a lesbian. It's as good of an explanation as any I've heard, and I think it's the likely cause in my case.

I asked my partner to weigh in on the issue, and she said she feels she was born gay, and doesn't much care exactly what caused it. Her mother was not taking any medication while pregnant with her.

I tend to think that there is not just one cause, and that this also accounts for the difference in gender expression among gay people. For example, I can see how more masculine gay women and more feminine gay men may have been exposed to different levels of male/female hormones in the womb - but I don't think that accounts well for very femme lesbians and very butch gay men. Also, there are heterosexual women who are "butch" in appearance and personality - just go to a dog obedience trial or horse show and suddenly "gaydar" no longer works - every woman seems lesbian even though many of them are happily married. So I think the mechanisms that influence gender expression and sexual orientation are related, but can also operate separately.

[icymist]

17. What makes people straight?

Always answer a stupid question with another question. It drives the rednecks nuts.

[kweerwolf]

19. Isn't it obvious what makes people straight?

It's the lack of a "asppreciates-Broadway-musical-theater-waaaaaaay-too-much" gene!

"don't cry for me, Ar-gen-tin-aaaaaaahhhhhhhhh!" :hi:

[swimmernsecretsea]

21. Don't forget the

lack of ability to accessorize. That's important too.

[swimboy]

20. Ummm . . . . Starbucks paper cups?

:eyes:

[Dark]

22. I've heard that identical twins have different finger-prints. Maybe,

whatever causes that may also have something to do with the sexuality.

[kbm8795]

23. I think it is still utterly amazing

that heteros are starting to spend so much time trying to find out why people are gay. . .it's becoming almost an obsession, particularly among the junk scientists of the Religious Reich.

One wonders why they haven't established reparative therapy clinics for all of the pedophiles. . .

[Maven]

24. Interesting that with all the talk of the brother with

"CGN" almost assuredly turning out gay, there's no acknowledgement of any possibility that the more masculine brother might turn out gay too. This is curious, since the article DOES acknowledge that only some and not all of the adult gay population demonstrated such feminine identity traits as a child.

Anyway, thanks for posting this kweerwolf! :hi: Interesting read.

[ropi]

25. exactly!

" 'CGN' almost assuredly turning out gay, there's no acknowledgement of any possibility that the more masculine brother might turn out gay too."

I am glad you mentioned that. It was the first thing that crossed my mind--of course...they always have to make an example out of the one who is not the Gender Conformist.

[Maven]

26. There are a few insidious and spurious assumptions at work here-

not just the attempt to marry one's sexual orientation to a particular behavior set but also the conflation of sexual orientation with gender identity. Why is it assumed that "Patrick" will turn out to be a gay man, especially when he self-identifies as a little girl? Maybe he'll turn out to be gender dysphoric and undergo surgical reassignment. And maybe, as I've already said, his more boyish twin brother will turn out to be gay anyway.

It's troubling because the attempt to show incipient "gayness" by showing "gay traits" in children is well-intentioned. Clearly, most people trying to prove such a link are doing so in order to show that one's sexuality is inborn. And I think it's pretty obvious that the author of the article is gay-positive. However, no attempt is made to examine the fallacies inherent to the generalization (or selective interpretation) of anecdotal and clinical evidence.

[Meldread]

27. I agree with you.

I noticed that as well and was discouraged. The problem I think science is having is that they are looking at things from an incorrect prospective. They need to throw out all their preconceived notions and stereotypes and just look at the facts.

Personally I don't believe in the "gay gene" per-say. That is to say I don't believe that there is a gene that particularly MAKES homosexuals, but rather certain conditions that cause it. For example: The sex genes of a hetero would be the same as a homo but something would have happened along the way to alter how they function. I believe that alteration takes place during the early development of a child in the womb, where hormonal levels effect sexual development. I think this was discussed in the article.

However, that still leaves the questions of: Why does it happen, is there a purpose to it? What causes it to happen? What happens during this process?

Those are the questions I want answered.

[TaleWgnDg]

28. I want to thank you, kweerwolf, for posting this . . .

.
I want to thank you, kweerwolf, for posting this . . . Boston Sunday Globe Magazine, August 14, 2005, cover article in DU GLBT forum. This is an important article. It's fairly and objectively written.

I sure hope that many in DU take the time to read the entire article. I further suggest that it be printed out and placed on coffee-tables around America. Seriously. It's that good.

"What Makes People Gay? The debate has always been that it was either all in the child's upbringing or all in the genes. But what if it's something else?"

by Neil Swidey, Boston Globe Magazine staff reporter



http://www.boston.com/news/globe/magazine/articles/2005/08/14/what_makes_people_gay/?page=full


.

[TaleWgnDg]

29. .