Am I no fun or just having a bad night??

[cboy4]

For some reason, I got upset listening to Letterman's Top 10 List about signs you know you're a gay cowboy.

There's nobody who likes that show more than me, but I think his comments about gay people are very belittling.

I know he invites Ellen on the show, but I don't know -- I mean he couldn't get away with Top 10 signs you're a black cowboy and start listing a bunch of African American stereotypes, could he?

Alright, maybe I'm just overly sensitive tonight for some reason... :dilemma:

[buddysmellgood]

1. No. I didn't see it, but I know what you mean. Gay people are still fair

game. My hope is that one day we can all laugh at all the stereotypes without abusing and discriminating against each other. But that day is a long way off. I do think that despite the gay ballot initiatives and other hate measure out there, that gays are making great progress. This time might be looked back on as the beginning of the civil rights era for gays. We are a ways off from a Rosa Parks for gays and I'm afraid that discrimantion will have to get much worse before it gets better. But as a straight man, I'm not going to remain silent while my friends are denied the pursuit of happiness.

[cboy4]

2. Thanks man, for the nice post

:)

[MikeStl]

3. I see what you mean

I just got out of a special showing of brokeback mountain about an hour ago and this top ten list thing really rubs me the wrong way as well. I'm probably just in a mood though from seeing the movie.:cry: Amazing movie though in my opinion. Everyone should go see it, people could learn something from it. On the other hand everyone is probably too set in their ways...

[Meldread]

4. I can laugh...

...at a "gay joke" (if it is intended in a non-hurtful way) you do have a point. How many straight folks would tell a black joke in front of a bunch of black people?

I mean, yeah it's sometimes funny to hear a gay joke from another gay person, but hearing a straight person tell it *IS* kinda belittling.

I am reminded of that movie, "Guess Who?" with Bernie Mac and Ashton Kutcher, and the scene where the family is sitting around the table and the black girlfriend tells her white boyfriend to tell her family (which is entirely black) a black joke he heard. He gets nervous and doesn't want to do it, but finally does and the family finds it funny, and they all start telling their best black jokes until Ashton takes it one step too far. It's a bit of a dramatization but that's kinda what it is like to me. Sure, if we are ALL laughing it's not-so-bad, but how do you know when you are going to cross the line?

Frankly, more often than not when straight people are telling such jokes it's not to be funny - it's to be demeaning and insulting.

[cboy4]

5. Yes, demeaning and insulting are good words

Two of the top 10 answers (signs you're a gay cowboy) were:

"You've been lassoed more times than most steer," and

"You love riding but you don't have a horse.


If a gay buddy said these answers to me, I'd laugh hard, especially at the steer comment. But I don't think it's funny coming from the mouth of a straight comedian.

To me, the point of these answers was to insinuate (indirectly perhaps) that the only thing gay people do is sleep around with each other.

To promote that stereotype only encourages people like Pat Robertson and others who will stop at nothing to try to make our lives miserable.

[Dark]

6. Relax.

Listen, I understand why people have a problem with a really hurtful joke (ie the bus almost full w/ blacks going off a cliff joke)

But RELAX. It's okay to laugh at ourselves sometimes.

Just because someone is making fun of a group doesn't mean they hate them, or that it's a bad thing.

A sense of humor is always a plus.

[kweerwolf]

7. "Insider/outsider" jokes

The same joke can either be funny or offensive ... depending on who tells it. A lot of it is whether the person telling the joke is part of the group about which the joke is told. It's like the "insider/outside" type of language. Among LGBTs, some of us use the word "queer" as an inclusive term for the entire community. Granted, there are some in the community who don't care for the word, but in general it's accepted. But, to hear the same word come out of a straight person's mouth can raise our hackles. It's much the same thing as the use of "the N-word." Young urban blacks can use the term to refer to each other, but it's not acceptable to be uttered by a white person.

The "insider/outside" thing isn't as simple as it may appear on the surface. For the most part we can laugh about a group of gay men camping it up and calling each other "fag," but the same word spoken by Fred Phelps tends to become fighting words. In between these two extreme is where humor fits. Here it becomes less clear cut and more "in the eye of the beholder." Remember the "Men on Film" skits in the comedy series "In Living Color" several years ago? It featured two stereotypically gay men reviewing films. Any film starring a woman would get a "Hated it!" review, while movies starring hot guys would get "Two snaps up!" There was a lot of disagreement in the LGBT community whether the skits were offensive or not.

So often in humor depends on it's context and the past history of the speaker. We tend to be much more lenient about Robin Williams doing a stereotypical imitation of a gay man because we know he has been supportive of the LGBT community in the past and his humor comes across as a lot more gentle than some of the comedians like Eddie Murphy, Sam Kinnison or Andrew Dice Clay who lack Williams' "street cred" among the LGBT community and whose humor has more of a vicious edge to it.

I didn't see Letterman's Top 10 list, so I can't judge it ... but based on what I've seen of Letterman telling gay-themes jokes in the past, I'd probably be more inclined to chuckle at his list than write an angry letter to the network.

[kweerwolf]

8. Just found last night's Top 10 ...

Here it is:

Top Ten Signs You're A Gay Cowboy


10. "Your saddle is Versace"

9. "Instead of 'Home On The Range', you sing 'It's Raining Men'"

8. "You enjoy ridin', ropin', and redecoratin'"

7. "Sold your livestock to buy tickets to 'Mamma Mia'"

6. "After watching reruns of 'Gunsmoke', you have to take a cold shower"

5. "Native Americans refer to you as 'Dances With Men'"

4. "You've been lassoed more times than most steers"

3. "You're wearing chaps, yet your 'ranch' is in Chelsea"

2. "Instead of a saloon you prefer a salon"

1. "You love riding, but you don't have a horse"

http://www.cbs.com/latenight/lateshow/top_ten/

Eh ... I wouldn't get too upset over it. Seems pretty innocuous to me and my warped sense of humor.

[cboy4]

13. Good posts. Thank you kweerwolf

:)

[Lex]

9. I saw it too and was disappointed in Dave.

I get the sense that movie upsets him somehow since he keeps referring to it derisively as a movie "about 2 men kissing."

What's sad is that his Executive Producer, Barbara Gaines, is an out lesbian. Sad in the sense that she didn't speak up or something.

[cboy4]

12. Very good point. I forgot, that's the other thing the movie

Every night this week he's said if you want to go see a movie about two men kissing, this is the one to see.

And each time, he's asked the audience, how many people have seen this movie and NOT ONE person has clapped. I felt it was very awkward because I'm sure some people in the audience have seen it, but may have been too embarrassed to say.

[davidinalameda]

10. you have every right to be offended

I would like to think that someone like Letterman would have a bit more sensativity but he panders just as much as the next guy or gal

write CBS and tell them how you felt

[cboy4]

11. I was hoping I'd hear something from you!

He's also been making a lot of lesbian jokes about Mary Cheney -- one during last night's show in which he said the Cheney's Christmas card this year features a photo of "their lesbian daughter shoveling snow."

He also made mention not too long ago about how the Cheney's lesbian daughter was transporting the huge Rockefeller Center Christmas tree on her back this year...or something like that, to mock her apparent butch mannerisms.

My only real problem with all of this involving Letterman is not that he's necessarily teasing gays so much as I'm beginning to notice a pattern.

[Lex]

14. Yeah, the Mary Cheney jokes are not even funny.

I mean, the gist of the 'joke' is that she's a lesbian so she must be out shoveling snow? I heard the other joke that she's the one who brought the White House Christmas Tree to DC herself.

Hahaha? No, I don't think so.

I mean, I can laugh at gay jokes by straight people if they are not too mean-spirited or just plain NOT funny.

[davidinalameda]

15. definately include your observations in your message to them

be polite in your message

include that you're a long time viewer and you enjoy Letterman but the recent gay slurs are a real problem with you and you're concerned about it

they know that for every person that takes the time to write in, a good number of people who don't write in agree with you

and face it, the GLBT community is still perceived as being more wealthy than others, and even though that's not true, we might as well use it to our advantage

do you think that most straight men give a crap about Sarah Jessica Parker's next project-no!

[closeupready]

16. Yeah, there's definitely an offensive tone to that list.

But then, I've never liked Dave Letterman anyway, so...

[swimmernsecretsea]

17. I'm glad you wrote about this...

I was a bit peeved about him, myself. His humor lately is a bit weird of late. I prefer him over Jay Leno mostly because Leno's a busboy for the Republicans, but his show is either not funny anymore, or the humor is so off. Having said this, I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, because he likes to take chances with his humor. When he fails, he fails big, but he does succeed, and he has moments of sensitivity.

I think what he's trying to do is lampoon the public perception of the movie. I don't know how many times it's been called "The Gay Cowboy Film." Dammit! It's NOT A GAY COWBOY FILM! It's a love story between two men. That just makes some people want to squirm, but I think if he exaggerates it, people will understand that their applying their own fear to it and not trying to understand or enjoy the story. He's been putting the film out in front of the public every night, not letting it be ignored.

OK. Now that I've set up that I didn't think he meant harm by his remarks, I do wish to add that I didn't think the bit was very funny. I thought the jokes fell flat, and kept going on the same riff of stereotypes. If you're going to do humor like this, it needs some balance or it just doesn't work. People often point to Archie Bunker in "All in the Family" as rationalization for slam humor against minorities. The difference is that on that show, there were numerous occassions that showed how he was being ignorant or relying on his prejudice. It broadened the humor and in turn, made it more effective.

If you feel strongly about his, and make an attempt to contact him, it can only help.

[cboy4]

19. good post! Thanks

[cboy4]

18. NIGHT 2 update

Well, the Letterman show was much better tonight.

I only had to sit through Tony the cue card boy's review of the movie King Kong in Spanish, in which he concluded by showing a model of a gorilla french kissing two cowboys -- presumably those from Brokeback :wtf: LOL

[Lex]

20. Tony Mendez is gay too.

I just remembered that. Both Barbara Gaines (the Exec. Producer) AND Tony Mendez are out and gay at Letterman's show.

[cboy4]

21. Well I suspected cue card boy was gay...

The more I think about, I think my problem is not with Letterman per se, but at the reaction of the audience.

Because I know nothing about the audience each night, I just visualize an auditorium full of straight people laughing at the expense of gays.

I know that's probably not the case, but I just hate how various stereotypes about the way gay people lead our lives are perpetuated.

I'm sure it's difficult for anyone who isn't gay to completely understand.