What do you do with a friend like this?

[Tyo]

I have a friend, quite a bit older than me. Known him for several years. He’s gay (as am I) but has spent his life trying to convince other people and occasionally himself that he’s not. He is positive that God loves him and that Jesus died for him and he’s equally positive that he’s going to Hell because of his sexual orientation, although just maybe if he remains celibate and suppresses his lustful thoughts St Peter might let him though the Heavenly gates with a warning.

He’s been married three times with the predictable results, although pre-divorce these unions did produce four children who he loves dearly. He is educating one of his daughters at a conservative Christian Bible college where she is taught and believes that the world is not much older than the pyramids and that her father is going to Hell. She regularly tells him what a stench in God’s nostrils he is but she had no problem hitting him up for the cost of her wedding to a self-rightous little prick she met at school who thinks exactly like she does.

His sons are grown and only rarely speak to him. His youngest daughter is 16, lives with him, adores him and recently announced that she is an atheist and now he is freaked that she is going to join him in Hell. He’s had a few one-night stands and a few short-term relationships over the years, but nothing works out. Either the guys turn out to be ‘users” and he dumps them or more often they just stop returning his calls.

This has gotten kind of long. Sorry. I guess where I’m going with this other than to vent my frustration is to ask what if anything we can do with friends like him. I know a lot of you probably know people like this although I have a feeling my friend is kind of an extreme case. Do we just sympathize and let them talk? It is kind of a strain. My partner can’t be around him for more than a half an hour or so before he’s had his fill. Be interested in hearing from others.

[acmavm]

1. Poor guy. What a sad life.

[Horse with no Name]

2. We all have friends who are beyond help

but we like them anyway. This is, I am afraid, yours.:shrug:

[waiting for hope]

3. The sad part is

that all of his relationships are tied up and twisted just like his self image is. If he were to be honest with himself and others, perhaps he would garner a bit more respect from his children. It's up to you on whether or not you want to talk to him about his behavior. Sometimes it works and sometimes it will break up a friendship. Good luck in your endeavor.

[DRoseDARs]

4. Get him the name & phone# of a good psychologist. Theres nothing u can do.

He needs professional help if he's as messed-up as you say he is.

[William769]

5. Well you can thank society in general for his problems

Years of therapy might help.

Just remember unconditional love, he's your friend through thick & thin.

P.S. Welcome to DU. :hi:

[applegrove]

6. Yes. To a psychologist.

[applegrove]

20. That being said - that they need help. I could just be a matter of testing

that psychiatrists and doctors do. I don't know about your friend's case, but in mine - the gossip was I was gay. I'm one of those people who tend to use the word "partner" to be all inclusive. And I didn't date. Thing is I'm also one of those people who cannot get the emotional faces of events in my life out of my memory. So the natural and right strategy for me was not to date when I was young. To build a life and friends (which I tried) and date only when both me (being sensitive) and guys (being emotional when they like someone and that someone doesn't respond)... well we all needed to be older.

Horrors interrupted this process for me. But like many of my ancestors on both sides of the family... I would be ready to live solitarily for much of my life - until - until I had enough good experiences and self-knowledge to go out with the right person. For me with conduction aphasia and a contextual memory - I would fit in only with another loner or some science geek. Tis great to be in your forties cause you mostly run up against adults who know there are all kinds of people in the world.


I was awash in anger and contempt as a teen (because I couldn't date or speak up for myself). So that is all I knew of men was anger and frustration and exclusion and I don't blame them. Contempt is very close to disgust. Which is very traumatizing because it is so psychicly costly. I just didn't have room for any more of that in my mind. Needed to live a quiet life for a bit. Not everyone should be dating when they are young. That is just reality. That just isn't appropriate for some people. You live the best life you can. And if other people think I am gay... well that is fine too. Unless rumour works its way into my personal life and people start to say I am not authentic. My narrative is my own. Only people like the neocons would venture to say otherwise.

I've only ever been attracted or fallen hard for men. And I pretty much ignore them all unless I find someone who can gab with me (I'm hard to talk to). But as I look back on my life and put it in perspective.. I realize and have read the frenzy all boys go into when a woman is "clanish" rather than "boy crazy" is universal across all cultures. It is a universal thing for an attack to take place. Fortunately for most solitaries (who may take more time to get with monogamy - and do not do it by serial dating like your friend...that is his strategy, not one for me)this tendency to attack is over by the time high-school is for boys, just as girl "group attacks & exclusion" are over with as well (unless there is a disorder of some kind that negates growing up where you find mobbing in the workplace & such).

So - if your friend is breaking hearts - that is the reson you should send them to therapy. So they and the doctor can figure out for themselves what is up, and what the best life strategy is.

Cause you all could be well off the mark with your theory. You don't know.

[Kutjara]

7. You can only be as good a friend as you are able to be.

While your friend is clearly suffering greatly, it is unrealistic for you to expect to be able to listen to his tale of woe forever. He needs to take steps to become reconciled to the reality of his nature. As friends, the most you can do is encourage him to get the help he needs. All he currently does is release a bit of stress temporarily by venting to you, before slamming the lid back down and letting the intolerable pressure build up again.

He is a man at war with himself and it will take a pretty experienced 'negotiator' to get the two sides of himself to agree to a ceasefire. Perhaps you can investigate therapists who have a reputation for dealing with cases like his. I'm sure there must be techniques that will enable him to gain a little peace. Maybe some of the gay charities and support groups can give you some names of people you may then suggest to him.

All that religious hooey is a powerful thing to fight against, but fight he must if he is to salvage his life. Three of his kids may be assholes, but his daughter is right there, and he should treasure her love and return it, without all the ecclesiastical baggage he carries around like Marley's chains in A Christmas Carol.

He will have a difficult time because, at the very least, he has forged a double-edged knife for himself. Now, he feels guilt about his athiest daughter. Even if he was somehow able to change his opinion 180 degrees, however, he would then feel guilt over what his excess of faith has done to his other children. Never mind the sham marriages and all the pain they caused. He's probably never going to be happy, but some good therapy may help him to accept the reality of his life and get some peace.

[meegbear]

17. Excellent advice!

Summed up everything and I couldn't agree with you more. :thumbsup:

Just hang in there and try to be there for him.

[Sapphocrat]

8. Really, what can you do?

He's brainwashed. He's an extreme example of "self-loathing queer." He needs intense therapy -- but you're not his therapist, and you can't force him into it.

You sound like a very good friend. And it sounds like your partner has much more endurance than I have. I've known more than a few people (almost all men) like your friend, and I just can't have people like that in my life -- it's all we can do to drive out our own ligering demons of internalized homophobia without being subjected to someone whose self-loathing appears incurable. I can only go so long (and sometimes, "so long" has stretched into many years) of hearing the same broken record before I want to run screaming off the nearest bridge just to make the noise stop.

I'm sorry if that sounds cold, but I'm a recovering "savior." I see someone broken, wounded, and I want to help, ad I usually do, at my own expense. If I've learned anything, it's that I can't fix anything outside myself.

So keep listening, if you can endure it. He's not going to change, short of Jesus himself swooping in and knocking some sense into the guy.

But if you find your friendship is having a detrimental effect on you -- or on your relationship -- you might want to reevalute any perceived benefits of this friendship. Don't get sucked down with him, or you're going to be of no use to yourself, let alone anyone else.

P.S. I'm reminded of Harold's parting shot to Michael in Boys in the Band:

"You're a sad and pathetic man. You're a homosexual and you don't want to be, but there's nothing you can do to change it. Not all the prayers to you god, not all the analysis you can buy in all the years you've go left to live. You may one day be able to know a heterosexual life if you want it desperately enough. If you pursue it with the fervor with which you annihilate. But you'll always be homosexual as well. Always Michael. Always. Until the day you die."


On edit: Stupid typo

[bowens43]

9. Tell the guy his mythology harming him.

He needs to stop believing the tall tales of bronze age goatherders. His daughter has the right idea.

[mitchtv]

10. having been raised by nuns and brothers I can understand

the hell your friend is putting himself through.If he must believe in Christ, advise him not to listen to the rest of the nonsense,JC is enough, and the rest is not necessary.

[Der Blaue Engel]

11. Turn him on to the Metropolitan Community Church

http://www.mccchurch.org

And then give him some links on what the Bible really says about homosexuality:

http://www.soulforce.org/article/homosexuality-bible-gay-christian

http://www.whosoever.org/bible/

and get him a couple of books:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/188636009X/104-1315927-4814321?v=glance&n=283155

http://www.amazon.com/Lord-Given-Lovers-Holy/dp/0595751016/ref=sid_dp_dp/104-1315927-4814321?ie=UTF8

[Creideiki]

12. Or, if he doesn't consider the MCC a "real" church

And really, many don't...

Look at the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA), the 6th largest denomination in the country as of a few years ago, which was the last time I was keeping score. Help him find a church and pastor that will help him, rather than keep him in self-loathing.

Or the United Methodist Church--I don't know where you are in the country, but the UMC church on Broadway in Chicago is fantastic, and among the safest Christian spaces that I know of.

Or the Anglican/Presbyterian/Episcopalean types.

Or American Baptist (a bit more hit-and-miss there, but there're plenty of AB--sometimes referred to as "Northern Baptist" or similar) types.

Any of these major denominations can, with a little care in selecting the church and pastor, hopefully help him come to peace with himself and his belief structure.

The sad truth is that as long as he can't forgive himself and love himself, then it's unlikely that he won't be able to find someone else that can love him short term, nor will he be likely to allow God to forgive him. It's a great adage that to be loved you have to love yourself.

I grew up Missouri Synod Lutheran and my coming out and subsequent excommunicate status in the church really have created a stronger spiritual life for me, even if at times it was difficult.

As to the sons and daughters that won't deal with him, remind him that where there is God, there is Love, and the converse holds, also. I can't imagine the pain of being rejected by people that I love that deeply, but I can wish him the best in his search.

[regnaD kciN]

13. ...or one of the many other "inclusive" parishes of various denominations

I mention this because the MCC may not be to his liturgical or spiritual tasts. But definitely get him to a place (there are lots of them within Christianity, even if they appear to be "underground" to some of the bigger, more conservative denominations) where GLBT persons are accepted as they are, not as they need to become in order to be "saved."

[donco6]

14. I had a close friend like that.

Very sad story. Won't go into all the details, but I finally had to just stop seeing him. I couldn't take all the guilt he would inadvertently lay on me because of his issues.

[NMMNG]

15. 1. Stand by him.

2. Recommend therapy.
3. Recommend an inclusive and non-hateful/judgemental church.



Every time I read stuff like this I'm sooooo glad I'm an atheist. :scared:

[sui generis]

16. His misery seems to be self-inflicted

Does he want to be happy? Ask him what he thinks his perfect life would be? His honest true perfect life, here in this life, before he's too old to enjoy it.

Ask him how he plans to change things now to get there from here. Ask him when he plans to start step one of this plan. Ask him if he needs your help or support doing it. And if he feeds you a load of crap, call him out, and keep calling him out even if it hurts. Life is too short - friends are supposed to be mutually supportive. He can still have faith and be himself - the two should not be mutually exclusive, and maybe the challenge he's facing and failing is not in denying his sexuality but in denying that his faith could be broader and more accepting of who he is. If he shifts that parameter just a little bit, it will give him so much more room to be happy.

He does probably need some form of therapy, or maybe even group.

[goddess40]

18. Wow, does he have a bad case of self-loathing

He really needs a psychologist, but you can't force him to go and the screwed up way this country works he may not be able to afford one.
The real question is this attention seeking, poor me, or real self-hate. Either way I'd tell him when he starts to whine that I really do like him and value his friendship but he is not allowed to beat himself up in my presence. IF he needs help with something that's different but to mope about things that he isn't willing to (edit:or can't)change are out.

While I'm an atheist, I would recommend the Unitarian Universalism church. Below is a link to find your nearest UU group. (I've even considered joining this group) Maybe you could even be a great friend and go along with him.

http://www.uua.org/CONG/

[Tyo]

19. Thank you

I've gotten some really great input from everyone and I appreciate it.

The suggestions regarding religious groups were helpful. I'm an atheist myself and not totally up to speed on which churches are open and supportive since I mainly hear about the ones that aren't. I'm also going to encourage him to keep trying to find a good analyst or psychiatrist. He has had help along these lines before so he is open to that although money is a problem.

And finally, I'd feel guilty sometimes about not wanting to talk with him because it could be such a downer or being angry with him essentially for being him. I understand now that I need to set limits and take care of myself or I'll end up cutting him off entirely. Thanks again for all of your help.