How "out" is out?

[Meeker Morgan]

I'm spinning this off from the "liberal talk show host" thread.

There are many gay men of my generation in public life who are totally closed-mouthed about their private lives. People draw the wrong conclusion because that wrong conclusion happens to be the "default".

No phoney girlfriends, no false heartiness when straight guys talk smut, just a masculine appearance and a shoeshine?

How common is this among younger gay men?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

1. i think it depends on the person

the reason i am judgmental about celebs not being out is they do not have the same risks a poor gay black man w.a construction job does.

we have an obligation to be as out as we can to make life for the next generation better.

[Zuiderelle]

7. "We have an obligation to be as out as we can to make life for the next generation better." !!

Right on, Lioness! :thumbsup:

That's exactly it.

[TechBear_Seattle]

12. Exactly right

Silent Legacy - Melissa Etheridge

Why did you steal the matches
From the one room motel
Once they gave you answers
Now they give you hell
They will never understand
They wonder where did they go wrong
How could you be so selfish
Why can't you get along

And as you pray in your darkness
For wings to set you free
You are bound to your silent legacy

You've seen it in the movies
And you've heard it on the street
Craving the affection
Your blood is full of heat
They don't listen to your reasons
As original as sin
Deny all that you feel
And they will bring you home again

And as you pray in your darkness
For wings to set you free
You are bound to your silent legacy

Your body is alive
But no one told you what you'd feel
The empty aching hours
Trying to conceal
The natural progression
Is the coming of your age
But they cover it with shame
And turn it into rage

And as you pray in your darkness
For wings to set you free
You are bound to your silent legacy

You are digging for the answers
Until your fingers bleed
To satisfy the hunger
To satiate the need
They feed you on the guilt
To keep you humble keep you low
Some man and myth they made up
A thousand years ago

And as you pray in your darkness
For wings to set you free
You are bound to your silent legacy

Mothers tell your children
Be quick you must be strong
Life is full of wonder
Love is never wrong
Remember how they taught you
How much of it was fear
Refuse to hand it down
The legacy stops here

[Fearless]

2. Depends...

My perspective is as follows: a secondary school teacher, recently graduated and in the classroom in a high school and currently working towards a masters as well.

There is an interesting phenomenon occurring, I think. High schoolers today are vastly more open to GLBTQ people and their causes. I have gay students. I know they are because they've said they are, openly and without question. Countering that, I graduated high school myself in the early 2000's and while the atmosphere was accepting, GLBTQ people didn't really seem as openly talked about; the issue was but the individuals were not. I knew gay people, but I didn't know publicly "gaaaay" people. For these people it seemed that those who knew them knew they were GLBTQ and didn't care, but they didn't flaunt it. Maybe some fear remained. I don't know.

A second observation... in college... I went to a decidedly liberal university of some 23,000. When I first arrived I remember fooling around with MySpace and Facebook search engines. The search revealed some 25-30 people openly and publicly out on Facebook and another 40-50 on MySpace (some duplicates I assume), at least online, which is I think for all intensive purposes the new definition of completely out. Fast forward to this past year where 150 or so people (granted of 23000) are out this way. A vast majority of these people are from the freshman class. I'm sure similar searches would reveal the same.

I see a great difference in those who entered high school (I live in MA) since the whole same-sex marriage ban debate from those who grew up even just a few years before.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

3. this difference in acceptance has to do in large part w.more visibility of gay culture

which is in turn thanks to gay men and women being out.

this is why i think its an obligation for those of us who can be out to be out.

its not like we live in Iran.

[Fearless]

4. I would agree...

That those who can be out should be out. But that therein is the Catch 22. Those who can be out are out. It's not as if, I imagine, that there are people who could confidently be out and know it and yet choose not to be. Maybe they think they can't be out, but that's a different story all together.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

5. we all pay a price to be out. the price shouldnt be your life, but i really dont think

that one can expect to achieve equality w.out effort and sacrifice.

you dont think all of us average joe/jane lesbians pay a price to be out? i sure do. i bet you do too.

theres nothing more sacred about someone else's career that they shouldnt be able to make some sacrifices. this is why i dont buy into the whole celebs need to be closeted thing.

[Fearless]

6. Nothing to fear but fear itself.

I guess that all we can do is be the best GLBTQ people we can be so that they realize that they can be happy too.

:bounce:

[Zuiderelle]

8. You would be wrong. I personally know people who COULD be out and are not, out of FEAR that

it will hurt their careers. I personally have hurt my own career by being out. I know plenty of gay people who have made the decision to be out, despite the knowledge or fear that it will affect their careers. And I also, unfortunately, know some who stay in the closet when they don't "have" to. I know a couple who work for the same company, and because of their fears they own separate houses in the same neighborhood to keep up the farce that they are not a couple.

It's absolutely not so, that those who can be out are out. There is not one person who makes the decision to live openly (none that I've met at least) who hasn't taken a big risk in doing so.

[dsc]

9. It can be hard to define

The only people in my life who don't 'know' would be my students and they pretty much do know. I haven't said to them "I am gay" but they know I am single, advisor to the GSA, and don't directly answer "Are you gay". So why don't I out and out tell them? Maybe wanting some wiggle room, definately feel my private life isn't fodder for my students.

[DarkTirade]

10. In my case, most people assume straight just because while certainly not 'masculine' in many ways

I don't fit any particular gay stereotype. I'm too pretty and hairless to be a bear, and too big and strong and round around the middle to be a pretty-boy. Also, since I'm bi I can talk about women with the guys. And because I tend to joke about just about any situation, sometimes someone won't realize I'm not joking when I tell them. :P

I think it's fairly common amongst any gays that don't fit a particular stereotype mold. And I've known straight guys who fit a gay stereotype and often had people assume they swung the other way. As long as people believe in stereotypes and follow expectations rather than knowledge, that sort of thing is going to happen.

[qb]

11. My boyfriend & I hold hands wherever we go. It just feels good and natural.

When I'm by myself I'm not obviously gay, but I mention my boyfriend if a conversation heads that way. Visibility is essential to acceptance.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

13. "Visibility is essential to acceptance."

:thumbsup:

[Amimnoch]

14. When you choose not to lie about it, it is out.. imo.

For my particular situation, I consider that when I left the US Navy, I was determined never to hide my orientation ever again. Because of my personality type, and natural disposition.. there are many both at work and in social settings that made the assumption that I am hetero. I do not intentionally do anything to promote that particular belief, but neither do I choose to make it a point of correcting it. When the topic of girlfriend/boyfriend or wife/husband come up, I do not hesitate in mentioning my man, as my man, and let the chips fall where they may at that point.

As a member of a minority group in this country, we are a people who are both advantaged and disadvantaged by one simple fact. Because our status is one that CAN be hidden for convenience, or in other cases is not readily apparent because of natural mannerisms we may have, it severely limits our positive exposure to the mainstream. For example.. a man or woman who is African American cannot hide their status, and no adjustment to behavior will prevent their status from being readily apparent. So an African American (or any other racial minority) who behaves in a way that lives up to every negative stereotype will be every bit as evident as a member of that group as one that lives up to every positively held aspect of modern society. Same thing when it comes to gender. A female that behaves and portrays herself in a way that supports every negative female stereotype is physically observed as a female, and a female that has risen above negative stereotypes like, say Senator Clinton who defies traditional female stereotypes.. Well, there is no mistaking that Senator Clinton IS a female.. but in our community, unless you have something on you that specifically identifies you, or behave in a way that lives up to stereotypes no one will even know that you ARE in fact gay.


I'm not sure if I really said what I wanted to say here, the way I wanted to intend it to sound.. but I'm not the best with words.

[Zuiderelle]

15. I agree. We as a group are more judged by the stereotypes among us than other groups simply because

there is no outward appearance from many of us to indicate whether we are gay. Where a woman is clearly a female (usually) whether or not she is stereotypically feminine, she doesn't have to tell anyone she's female. And where an African American is clearly non-white, whether or not they are anyone's stereotype of an African American, they don't have to tell anyone that they are black. We as gay people need to be out and live openly so that others can see who we are and understand that those they stereotype us to be are simply among us but don't define us, any more than any part of any group defines the entire group.

[XOEnterprises]

16. This reminds me of

my roommate. I had just realized I was attracted to my best friend, and we began to date in March. That evening, my roommate came home in tears because a gender queer woman was set to live in a double room with her, and my roommate voiced, very clearly, she was uncomfortable with living with a woman that "she didn't know the orientation of." Obviously, she assumed that just because this girl was planning on becoming a male after graduation, my roommate assumed she was a lesbian, but because I'm not "the typical homosexual/bisexual" she assumed I was "safe."

Naturally, I was hurt and incredibly angry(for full disclosure, my girlfriend leans masculine, but doesn't plan on any surgery that I know of). But when I came out to my roommate last week, she was pissed for a time, but then quickly got over it and became even friendlier than usual to me. :shrug: I'm still not sure what that's about, but whatever.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that it is very easy to live as a "quiet" homosexual/bisexual. If I had never told my roommate I was dating another woman, she would have never known that she was already living with someone attracted to women, but who doesn't walk around in masculine clothes (the hair is suspect). I think it is important to be as out as you can be if you feel comfortable doing so, because it's still a pretty scary thing most of the time.