What say you on the theory that homophobic people are really reacting

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

on a subconscious level, to their own deeply hidden feelings of attraction to the same gender?

My friend and I were discussing that today. She said the same thing, that she believes that sexuality is a spectrum more than an either/or proposition and that some straight people have perceived on SOME level (maybe not even consciously?) that they have some feelings for their same gender and all their posturing and screaming and yelling and homophobia is really a reaction to that.

I said I've always found that theory intriguing, especially since most of the straight people I know (including myself and husband) who are perfectly fine with whatever sexuality anyone is are generally not worried about such feelings in themselves.

Also, a conservative friend (believe it or not, I used to have them) once told me she heard of this study (got NOTHING to back this up with) in which hetero men were shown VERY subtle images of homosexuality (very very subtle, nothing overt) and their...erm....positive physical reaction was noted (heart rate, breathing rate, temperature of skin, **etc**) and the guys who had the biggest reaction to the subtle homosexual images were the loudest homophobes. The guys who had a physical reaction but it really didn't bother them turned out to be straight guys who were NOT homophobic.

Interesting, no? What do you guys make of stuff like that? It seems like everyone I know who is NOT homophobic is also very comfortable with their own and others' sexuality.

[indigobusiness]

1. I THINK THAT'S PROBABLY TRUE.

But what do I know?

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

2. Heh

exactly how I feel. I'm not a scientist or a behavioral psychologist or anything like that.

I just have never seen anything in my own experience that would contradict that theory.

[indigobusiness]

5. My litmus test, for everything, is sense of humor.

I measure everything by it.

[wtmusic]

3. Way back in college

in the 70's, there was a guy in my dorm who was severely anti-gay, talking about how he wanted to beat the shit out of all the f*ggots, etc. etc. His hatred for all things gay was a bit too conspicuously virulent.

Years later I ran into Paul on the street with his arm around a guy and he was embarrassed. I just remember feeling sad that he was ashamed, like I really gave a shit.

[MotownLew]

4. "Homophobia is Gay" at RobotLunch.com... Enjoy n/t

[SnowBack]

10. Enjoy what? Insulting shirts?

Using Gay to mean stupid is INSULTING...

[almostallhere]

22. that's the point. it's sarcasm. irony, a play on words

[sans qualia]

6. Here's my theory

From a very early age, people have drilled into their brains the idea that male and female are two completely separate, distinct categories that never overlap. This silly model manages to conflate male and female with masculine and feminine, so each sex is expected to possess certain behavioral, as well as physical, characteristics. When someone transgresses the accepted boundaries of gender, it threatens people who A, have a lot at stake in maintaining their own "pure" maleness or femaleness (which is why, in our male-dominated society, men are often more unabashedly homophobic than women), and B, see atypically-gendered behavior in others as an indication that they might not fit as neatly into their own gender as they previously thought. The latter requires a degree of empathy, so it makes sense that people with suppressed homosexual desires might be homophobes themselves.

That's what I think, anyway. It might be total gibberish. :shrug:

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

8. It sounds pretty good actually

and I didn't find a thing I could disagree with!

[sangh0]

9. Your theory touches on some of the same points Lakoff makes

in a book of his I'm currently reading. I started a thread with a quote from the book that touches on some similar ground, particularly the idea that "transgressive" behavior such as homosexuality "threatens" some people's moral order. Here's a link:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=221x827

[DenverDem]

7. Methinks they doth protest too much.

Overcompensation for latency, obviously.

[soleft]

11. I think for many it's just a matter of sexual repression period

Whether or not they're repressed homosexual or heterosexual feelings.

Underlying it all - I think is fear of death.

Nothing puts you more on the edge of feeling alive that expressing sexuality. Some people cannot tolerate that much aliveness, it puts them that more in touch with fear of their own death.

Some people I feel exist under the false notion that if they never really live, they can't die.

So they suppress all that makes them feel alive - and experience terror when they see those qualities in others.

[archineas]

12. my theory

for what it's worth...

i believe that homophobic men are homophobic because they fear an inevitable loss of control over their manhood. to them, sexuality is externalized, and plays a distinct part in most of their habits and rituals. there is not internalized sexuality because, in their minds, they cannot be "entered". their sexuality, worn as an accessory, provides them control because all aspects of their sex is overtly viewable when offered.

to them, being gay is internalizing one's sex, and by doing so, removes sex as being something "worn". it takes away their control, and puts them on the same plane as, an unfortunate as it is for me to say, a woman. to them, the woman must be the recipient of their sex, and to put themselves in a similar position is to intentionally subjugate themselves to another power.

i think we've seen enough in everyday life to remind us how much some american men cannot stand the idea that they aren't at the top of everything.

j

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

18. I've thought about that, myself

And I've wondered if it isn't a contributing factor in homophobia, at least for some men.

[mongo]

13. I've always believed that sexuality is a spectrum

but I'm bi - so what do I know?

[Chovexani]

14. I'm no academic but this is what I think

I think that with some homophobes (the ones always yelling about "faggots") that is the case, but I think in some cases straight guys are homophobes because deep down they are absolutely terrified that a man will treat them the way they treat women. Nine times out of ten these guys are also sexist pigs that treat women like utter crap, and I think they are scared that a gay guy will come along and treat them like that.

Those are the homophobes that constantly look nervous around men they assume are gay. The ones that gay bash and then claim the guy was making a pass at them. Deep down they are so damn scared a man will treat them like dirt, ie. a woman.

That makes sense in my brain, I hope it made sense in the post.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

16. Wow that's an interesting theory!

So the flip side of that would be that straight men who AREN'T homophobic generally treat women with respect.

Wait, I'm thinking about all the straight non-homophobic men I know.

DAMN! The theory works out on those guys! They are all straight, NOT threatened by homosexuality in the least, and treat women with a high degree of respect.

Wow. Interesting...

[benevolent dictator]

23. I have a theory that's similar to this..

that men ask, and women learn to say no. Women generally learn to say no fairly early on, so it's no big deal to them if someone is gay, because they can just say no and it won't be a big deal. Men, on the other hand, ask, and don't like to be asked. It ties into that whole thing about not wanting to be treated like a woman. They don't know how to say "no" if a gay man asks them out, so they feel threatened.

[arwalden]

15. Being Vehemently Anti-Gay Was How I Chose To Hide My Feelings...

... in junior-high and high school.

I recall once that I bumped into a college classmate at a gay nightclub in Gainesville, FL. I was shocked to see him there because in the past he had been very outspoken against gays. When we spoke, he said something like "I suppose you're shocked to see me here?" and as our conversation continued, he admitted that he was in denial and trying to hide and supress his own feelings.

Ralph Reed? Are you listening? Lindsey Graham? Is this you? Fred Phelps? Being a hate-monger in the name of GOD won't make you straight. Rick Santorum? I'm talking about you too.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

17. There's one guy in my high school class

(I graduated many years ago) and he was SO homophobic in high school and middle school. To the point of actually assaulting guys he called "gay" in the hallways. He never really physically hurt them, just scared a lot of people. There was DEFINITELY no coming out in my suburban Dallas high school in the 80s.

Well guess what? He's gay. He came out several years ago and at our 10 year reunion, came with his partner. He's very liberal and a big activist for GLBT rights.

At our senior prom, he came with a guy. He swore up and down they were just there as friends. And since he had been so openly homophobic, we believed him. Now looking back.....

I feel bad both for him AND for his victims in those days. To his credit, he told me he feels horrible about it and wishes he could go back and do things over.

[arwalden]

19. My Anti-Gay Behavior In HS Was More Along The Lines Of

anonymously ridiculing ALL gays in general or ridiculing and gossiping about suspected faggots behind their back. I never did any of the in-your-face bullying... but still I feel bad for the folks in my class that were teased incessantly.

[Chovexani]

30. Interesting.

I always thought Ralph Reed screamed "closet case", myself. Also, Rick Santorum and his god-fearing 800 kids. You're not fooling anyone, Lil' Ricky.

[foreigncorrespondent]

20. Oh I think it is very true!

Think about it, any kind of phobia really means the fear of something.

[Goldmund]

21. Ahscroft is gay!

I think it's definitely true for some people -- but like it is with everything else, the mind/consciousness is such a complex thing that it's never a single cause that leads to a certain manifestation. I think there are a lot of reasons that could lead to homophobia/hatred.

[vajraroshana]

24. I told this story before on DU, I'll tell it again

I came out to my parents when I was 12. It wasn't the right time, but I did it anyway.

My parents sent me to some relatives that were really cool and were both teachers and knew a lot about (but not enough) of adolescent psychology. I stayed with them for the summer. But I had to return home.

When I got home, my father got drunk and got out his .22 pistol and loaded it and put it up against my head and said, "No son of mine is gonna be a goddamned queer".

My mother screamed and cried in the background, "Don't do this, don't do this"

My dad held the gun waiting for me to tell him I wasn't really a "goddamned queer".

So I told him, "I think it was just some confusion, I'm not really queer".

My dad said "Well I never was confused". Or something like that.

But oddly I thought that he really was gay. I don't know how to say it, but that's what I thought in that tense moment.

Six years later after I'd graduated with a scholarship I ended up in a celibate "hindu cult", but I didn't stay very long and was back home.

My dad had a secret to tell, he closed the door and told me he'd kill me if I ever told his secret.

He told me that he was "that way" but that he'd resisted it, and he understood my urge for religious celibacy, but now I must "fight it".

"Like he did".

That was the second time my dad told me he was going to kill me. But this time I knew his secret.

.....

Long, long story short....

Yes, I believe people that are really against homosexuality are actually fighting against something in themselves.

It's obvious.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

29. Whoa

what a story. I hope you and your dad are ok now.

Thanks for sharing it....

[belle]

25. It depends; there are several different flavors of homophobe...

Some people don't like/fear/attack gay folk 'cause it's the fashion and it gives them an acceptable outlet for their bottled-up icky feelings. It's the "kick the dog" transaction, wherein essentially powerless people get tromped on all day by their boss; they can't fight the boss, so they go home and take it out on the wife, who in turn takes it out on the kids, who then go kick the dog. These are the people who would've been the most enthusiastic racists in Jim Crow South, for instance. Some may be that, as well. But for a lot of these people, especially younger ones, they've already had it sufficiently drummed into their heads that "racism isn't cool" that they don't think along those lines. Still, someone needs to fill the scapegoat role; and right now, tag, gays are it for a lot of folks.

The anti-gay-marriage and "special rights" folks, especially, have a lot of these people among their ranks; they're operating from the incoherent belief that somehow, gays and other minorities are getting something that they're not, and it isn't FAIR, dammit. Some of these people aren't even really "haters" so much as generally angry, bitter, and confused; they probably wouldn't care much if they were in a better place themselves, but it feels to them like the world is crumbling around their ears and they're just not in any mood to hear about univeral love and tolerance and so on.

Some people are, indeed, having the classic "reaction formation" as well, attacking what they secretly long for. These are the ones who focus most obsessively about the sex, sex, sex, and how disgusting it all is, every single lurid detail. Also, I agree with the poster who said that most of these people are sexually repressed in general. You can tell, of course, what a given anti-sex/gay bigot's jones is by what he or she fixates on most obsessively, from anal sex to prostitution.

A *lot* of people hate gay men in particular because they associate gayness with being effeminate, which they associate with being weak and vulnerable, which terrifies them, because they don't want to be it. These are the ones who are more upset about the gender implications of gayness than anti-sex, per se, although somewhere in there there are erotic hangups as well, of course. Needless to say, the overwhelming majority of this type consists of men, and some very male-ID'd straight women (the Ann Coulter type).

Some people are professional politicians or wanna-be's (this includes religious organization leaders), and are using their "hate" primarily as a cynical ploy to gain status. These are the people who don't seem to ever get angry, or have much of any emotional response at all, really; and they don't seem to ever hear what you're saying to them, either. They just smoothly and politely repeat their talking points. There is no point in attempting to genuinely connect with these people, as they have no intention of engaging honestly. More to the point, they are probably so disconnected from their own feelings that they've turned themselves into a kind of willing cog in some political machine.

Finally, you have the genuine haters, the Fred Phelpses of this world. These people are actually a very small percentage of the people we're talking about when we say "homophobe." Honestly, I think they belong in a category to themselves. Whatever's wrong with Phelps, it goes far beyond anything to do with sexuality, although of course that's a part of it; the whole personality is just completely distorted with rage and hatred. Ultimately, I think that the target doesn't even matter; what matters is having a valve for their toxic destructiveness. Phelps may have picked gay folk for some personal kink in his psyche, but ultimately I think he just reached out for whoever was most socially vulnerable, in much the same way that Hitler targetted Jews. And it's never enough for them. They are bottomless wells of hate. Avoid, avoid, avoid.

[seaj11]

26. the study your friend referenced...

http://www.apa.org/releases/homophob.html

[Dallas Suzy Q]

27. Homogender Identification As Subtle Homosexual Element

When one looks at lots of the really big male rock stars and sees howa majority of their fans are male one wonders a bit. Same thing for "guy flicks" which have next to zero women as developed people in them. Women in them often being cardboard cut outs.

Then one looks at women in rock some of them are quite pretty sexy in a chick rock sort of way and most of their fans are women.

I think it is more obvious with women than with men because men have this masculinity thing to up hold but has any one besides me noticed that women's fashion magazines are full of sexy near naked women. And subtle lesbian imagry.

But then more women are bisexual than I think guys are.

DallasSuzy

[Chovexani]

31. I don't think there are more bi women than bi men

I just think it seems that way because more bi men are closeted due to the double standards of society. In Hetero America's eyes, it's okay for a woman to be bisexual because it's "hot girl-on-girl action". IOW, women exist solely for men's sexual gratification, so bisexual women exist solely to fulfill male fantasies of voyeurism and threesomes. But male homosex is strictly taboo because it's seen as "disgusting" to Hetero America. (I don't think it's disgusting, quite the opposite in fact, but I guess that makes me even more weird by their standards)

I think in a lot of ways male bisexuality is even more threatening to Hetero America because it blurs the lines far too much for their comfort zones. Many (but not all!) bi males don't fit the stereotype of a dude that engages in shameless buggery, and that scares the shit out of straight guys. For instance, my last boyfriend was bi but I was one of very few people he was out to. The way he put it to me was that he was 90% into women but sometimes he just needed some cock. Like my gaydar, my bi-dar never fails, and I had no clue until he came out to me. I mean he looks about the straightest straight that ever straighted. However he is deeply closeted due to coming from an uberconservative family, and his friends for the most part are hardcore freepers (another reason why our relationship just couldn't work).

OTOH, my current boyfriend, also bi, gets crap from his family because they think he's a sissy. They are constantly making snide jokes about him because half of them are totally convinced he is gay and we're in a sham relationship. Not because he's flaming, Carson Kressley type fey, but because he doesn't sweat macho juice out of his pores. He's actually bi but only out to me because he's from a really small, conservative sort of town.

There's also the insanely huge numbers of bi men in hetero relationships who are terrified their womenfolk will FLIP OUT if they came out. Too often these women see the coming out as an admission of attraction for someone else and jealousy rears its ugly head. In both the instances I described (and also a couple other cases where I dated bi men), I was the first girlfriend they had that they were comfortable coming out to because they knew I wouldn't care (I'm bi myself I would be a raging hypocrite if I did).

And then there's the self-hating closet cases who engage in DL behavior because they are so ashamed of themselves. These guys will never admit to being bi. Ever. Because only fags fuck guys. Or, they're not gay because they're on top.

Until society changes the screwed-up way it trains males regarding their sexuality, you'll never see as many out bi men as you do women. But that doesn't mean there aren't just as many.

[Dallas Suzy Q]

33. I don't think there are more bi women than bi men

As a bisexual woman who has been around the LGBT community for 30 years I think there are a lot more bisexual women than men. And it has nothing to do with hot horny porn of "two women".

Men tend to be one or the other. But I've drifted back and forth in relationships dependent upon my falling in love with the person. The first time I fell in love with a woman after a three year relationship with a man was at the height of second wave feminism and I "came out as a lesbian" Not unlike a whole bunch of women did who later wound up married to men.

Now I'm in my late 50s and I'm in a relationship with a woman and it looks like the rest of the life time one.

Problem with getting a fix on biwomen/lesbians is that we aren't very much the bar/cruise scene that gay guys seem to have. At least no where as much. We are partnered off and we get together with other couples. Be they straight, lesbian or gay for dinner or brunch or the like.

That's not exactly high profile.

Part of the biguy invisibility probably has to do with a lot of them being so0rt of on "the down low" type of secretive about it rather than the "Anything That Moves" pan sexual rainbow tribe sort of thing.

But I'll stand by my opinion that there are more bisexual women than there are bisexual men.

Dallas Suzy

[Chovexani]

35. Society

Really, that's what it boils down to. I don't think men tend to be "one or the other", any more than women are; I know way, way too many bi men to believe that (I know a disproportionately high number of bi people in general, but that's what happens when you're active in the Pagan and Goth subcultures). Men encounter far more hostility towards same-sex experimentation than women do. Chalk it up to phallocentrism; female sexuality is not as threatening because it's not taken seriously. "What do you chicks...DO?" :eyes: Fear surrounding gender roles plays a big part in it; one acquaintance of mine swore up and down that he was straight, despite the fact that he had had a couple of long term relationships with males in the past, strictly because he was a giver and not a taker if you catch my drift. I happen to think sexuality is fluid and people should be free to define themselves however they choose, but I have to wonder about how the pressure to conform to certain gender ideals (backed up with ridicule and threats, no less) influences the way people talk about their sexuality.

I mean, I don't know a single straight woman who hasn't at least admitted to having thoughts about another woman. Lots of people experiment in college, and I'd be willing to be there are as many instances of buggery chalked up to drunken frat experiences as there are girls experimenting. The difference is the former is rarely talked about.

Part of the biguy invisibility probably has to do with a lot of them being so0rt of on "the down low" type of secretive about it rather than the "Anything That Moves" pan sexual rainbow tribe sort of thing.

This is precisely why I think the statement "there are more bi women than bi men" is questionable at best. If so many are on the DL then how can we know how many there are?

It's just sad to me that we live in such a fucked up, repressed society...how many more people of all genders and orientations would feel free to express themselves without the baggage fundie puritanism has inflicted on us?

[Dallas Suzy Q]

36. "Society"

"This is precisely why I think the statement "there are more bi women than bi men" is questionable at best."

I also think that there aren't any where near as many lesbians as gay guys and that more "lesbians" are bisexual than guys are.

I also think it is more due to biology than society an extension of the "mother instinct". BTW we have 8 cats, six female and two male. Cat society structures differently but there are little bondings between certain females and little games between other females and the big Maine coon male. My partners son and his girlfriend have a pair of gay male Chihuahuas.

I also look at the psychological studies. And yes society too. But none the less there is still greater either/or with guys and more of a continuum with women and I base that on observations accumulated during some 40 years of being a participant in the gay/lesbian movement and culture.

Dallas Suzy

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

28. Oooh thanks I was looking for that

[Lisaben2619]

32. Sometimes, I wonder more about how some straight men become

so secure in their own "manliness" and comfortable with tolerance. It seems like that would be a hard fight for straight men to not be homophobic, given the culture they're brought up in. Disclaimer: I'm not excusing any homophobic behavior.
There's a kid in my city who is a high school senior, dates girls exclusively, yet constantly defends LGBT kids in his school and the community. He even organizes a vigil on our Main Street for marriage equality every week. Yet, the kid, as far as he or I know, is totally straight. I'm mesmerized by him. I keep asking him questions about why he does these things. I can't get past how unlike his straight male classmates he is. I think his parents did something incredible, but he doesn't think they (or he) are anything special.

[readmoreoften]

34. I'm skeptical

I don't like how this is always used to explain away violence towards gay and trans people. It makes it sound like 'gays' are the problem and the victim. "gay on gay violence."

My opinion is that it is people who adhere to that Strict Father Morality Paradigm (the one George Lakoff talked about) and they want to 'slide off course' in some way. That could mean wanting a dominatrix or a wanting an overtly sexual female or being afraid of becoming feminine or, yes, homoerotic urges and desires.

Just my 2 cents.

[liontamer]

37. sometimes it's true, but some people are just full of hatred eom