Never Forgive, and Never Forget

[ColoradoMagician]

All of these calls for being nice to the homobigots are bullshit, and the people saying this can shove it where the sun don't shine.

I am never going to forgive the Mormons or any of the other bigots that declared war on the gay community.


I am Christian and gay, and I don't recall forgiving being one of the 10 commandments.


Fuck you to the homobigots, I will take my chances at the gates of Heaven explaining why I never forgave you fucks.


No Mormon business will ever get a dollar from me for the rest of my life.

[WillParkinson]

1. Be reasonable...

Not "every" Mormon was Pro 8. If you're going to go against Mormons for this reason then you'll need to do Christians, too. Has every single Christian in the world earned that same wrath?


Edit: Check out this link: http://www.advocate.com/news_detail_ektid64847.asp

Being a Mormon does not automatically make you the bad guy.

[ColoradoMagician]

2. Reasonable doesn't cut it.

You be 'reasonable' and I will do whatever the fuck I want.

[WillParkinson]

4. Fine...

Cut off your nose to spite your face.

Get up in arms and hurt the people who were standing with you. Push them away.

Since you seem to be doing such a great job already.

[ColoradoMagician]

5. apologist

...

[WillParkinson]

6. Hardly...

Go after the ones who donated. Fine. Good on ya.

But don't paint everyone with the same brush. Not all Mormons are against gay marriage.

If you want to call me an apologist because I don't want to push away any allies we DO have in this fight be my guest. I'd rather have them standing with me than going over to the other side because I pushed them away.

[MNBrewer]

8. but

They give money to their church, which then used it to fund H8. There is culpability.

[WillParkinson]

11. As I said earlier....

Then you need to treat every Christian the same way. Why Mormons and not Christians? They give money to their churches. And I'm sure a lot of them voted the way their church told them.

[bluedawg12]

13. Not exactly true analogy

The Mormons are a cohort.

Christianity is not a cohort, it is an idea. There are many sects.

Among them the Catholic Church. Who also funded PH8. The Catholic hierarchy yes -> bigoted.

Where,as, Catholics themselves are not homogeneous in their thinking and do not always follow canon: ex: divorce, birth control.

I would say, and this is just a gut instinct, the M Cult is highly likely to be bigoted as they are cultish about everything and they tithe and give money back to Salt and would be highly homogeneous about being anti-gay bigots.

Whereas, Catholic individuals are pretty much like herding cats, one would need to talk to each person before deciding.

For boycott purposes however, boycotting M Cult owned businesses is (IMHO) a statistically safe bet, and Catholic Church owned businesses is a safe bet, but do not consider every Catholic individual bigoted.

Also, there are tolerant Christian sects, Episcopalians and UCoC come to mind.

[WillParkinson]

16. And there are tolerant Mormons

It's not fair to point a finger at every member of a group.

I'm sure gays and lesbians know how that feels.

[Lyric]

14. I've never met a modern Christian who tithes. I'm sure they exist, but

they're rare enough that I've never met one. I've also never met a modern Mormon who *doesn't* tithe--and as my Mom used to be a Mormon, I have known quite a few of them. Again, I'm sure they exist, but they are rare.

"Christian" comes in thousands of varieties and denominations. "Mormon" does not. There is one central, official Mormon church. There are a few scattered sects like the FLDS folks, but the vast, VAST majority of Mormons belong to, and give money to, the very church that spearheaded the effort to strip away our rights. The same cannot be said about Christians. There is not one central, official "Christian" church.

Comparing Mormon to Christian is like comparing a tide pool to an ocean.

[WillParkinson]

18. And boycotting every one of them...

May push those who are on our side and demonstrated it to move further back into their religion.

The "Christian" church has gone through the same types of movements. You need to take the allies we have, especially those within that organization. If you push them away their church can never change.

[bluedawg12]

34. We are not trying to change any Churches - remember?

This is a legal struggle for justice, you are pushing the outreach notion and for now it is not the primary focus.

[WillParkinson]

37. I don't care about their church...

I care about the people. The same people who cared enough to demonstrate against the proposition and the same people who may very well have voted no.

Churches (most all of them) be damned.

I know my opinion isn't popular. But I want to understand something before I target every single Mormon.

Those who donated? Yeah, not one cent of my business. But those who question church teachings or disagree? I'd like to hear them out first.

[bluedawg12]

54. Why do you insist on saying a boycott of businesses "targets every single" cult member?

Boycott's withhold financial support for businesses.

[donco6]

41. That's ridiculous.

So until every single Mormon publicly agrees with the official church stance, we have no right to be upset with the Mormon church.

That is false. The official church stand was pro 8 - that's enough for me. Mormons who continue in this evil, hypocritical group are just as guilty as the leadership.

[WillParkinson]

44. I did not say that....

I'm talking at the individual level. I'm talking the members of the church who disagree with the stance. The ones who said that the church had no right being involved or donating to that.

I'm talking about the people who said:

"This is what happens when people in California say mean things about our gay kids. Mothers come out of the closet," Millie Watts, one of the organizers, said at the event, according to the Tribune. Watts told the paper that she feels "disappointment and betrayal" at her church's involvement in Prop. 8.

Linda Barney, another mom who spoke at the rally, told the Tribune that her heart "reaches out to young Californians, teens who are not out of the closet who are alone...listening to hateful ," adding, "They need to hear from us. They need to know there are people with loving hearts."

They disagree with the church on this stance. They have gay children. I don't know how they balance their belief and their family, but I do know that I wouldn't boycott them just because they happen to belong to a cult church. But that's just my opinion.

(BTW, the above quote comes from the link I posted from the Advocate magazine.)

[donco6]

51. I could easily boycott them and not think twice.

That's the price you pay for associating with hate-mongers.

[Jackpine Radical]

3. First win.

Then forgive.

[mondo joe]

7. No one is more pro-payback than I am, but I see no point in holding Prop8 against

those who had NOTHING to do with it and who may have opposed it because of their religion.

I don't want to argue theology, and I'm not arguing for forgiveness - but forgiveness would only be needed for those who did something to forgive.

That said, it's your money and your call where to spend or not spend it.

[Warpy]

9. Forgiveness can be extended

when they admit they were wrong and work to help you overturn that wrong.

Just never forget.

(Hey, I'm Irish. We're really good at the grudge thing)

[madmadmad]

10. all mormons are guilty of funding hate, whether they personally approve or not

to be a mormon in good standing with the church you must titthe 10% of you income. this is not a voluntary thing as with many christian denominations, church leadership enforces this vigorously (they have very tight control over their congregation- how do you think they were able to raise 22 mil without breaking a sweat?). and church members aren't allowed to to specify what their tithe funds go, or anything like that- "i want my money to go only to the needy"- won't cut it. ergo, ALL mormons, if they have an income, supported this measure whether they personally agree with it or not, so ALL mormons must be held accountable. simple as that- if you tithe, you have blood on your hands.

so until the church publically changes their stance on gays (like they did with blacks) and supports equal rights for all, including homosexuals- FUCK THEM.

we can't make nice with them- they hate us, and are willing to devote unbelievably vast sums of money towards the cause.

[Zuiderelle]

12. The Mormon church did more to sway this vote than any single other religious organization...

therefore, I'm with you. If I know that a business is owned by ACTIVE members of the Mormon Church, they will not get my money.

Likewise, if I know anyone who is associated actively with the Knights of Columbus, they also will not get my money.

Not until this is decided by the Supreme Court and we are finally allowed all the same rights and privileges as straight Americans will I support any business that I can even slightly associate with this travesty of justice.

There are PLENTY of other organizations that can benefit from our GAY dollars. I will seek those out.

They don't want us, then they don't get us.

[bluedawg12]

15. Mormons "tithe" so boycotting their business affects money flowing to that Cult.

It's fair game.

[Zuiderelle]

17. Yep. Good point. Any mormon who tithes (and that's all of them), is supporting what their church

has done.

They deserve this, and they are going to get it.

[WillParkinson]

19. Sad...

That's mob mentality. Just like "every gay person deserves what they get" because of something one person did.

Focus your energy on those directly responsible who directly donated. Try to work with those who did not donate, do not agree, and might be trying to find a better path.

[Zuiderelle]

20. Yes, sad that the mob mentality of the Mormon church did this to us.

You must be Mormon. I'll focus on who I want to focus on. It will be ANY Active Mormon who I might do business with. Instead I will direct my business to a gay or gay-friendly business.

Why shouldn't I? Why would I care that an active Mormon who tithes to his church, his church that FUNDED this hate, might not agree? His church FUNDED THIS HATE.

[WillParkinson]

21. No, I'm not Mormon. I'm an atheist.

You go ahead and direct your anger how you see fit. By all means, doing business with gay friendly groups is a great idea.

I'd rather have a dialogue with those Mormons who voted no. Ask them why they voted that way and how they can balance it with the money that they give to their church.

In this fight we need allies. You might find someone who disagrees with their church and might just help them out of the cult.

[Zuiderelle]

22. I don't care about playing nicey-nice anymore. I don't care about dialogue.

I care about taking this crap to the Supreme Court and being done with ANYONE being allowed to vote on MY rights.

Playing nice hasn't gotten us anywhere. We've been way too fucking nice for way too fucking long.

No more. I'm an American, my family deserves the same rights and benefits as their families, and I will NOT give money to anyone associated with a church that funded this hate. And I am not interested in having a conversation with anyone associated with that church either. I'm done.

[WillParkinson]

23. Your choice...

And I respect that. :-)

[Zuiderelle]

24. Thanks for respecting it.

Though I think it would be better if you understood it.

[WillParkinson]

26. I can't agree with it.

But I respect your choice. Just as I would hope you respect mine.

We don't have to agree.

[bluedawg12]

25. I had a dialogue with a Mormon WHO VOTED THAT WAY

when I told her views on homosexuality as being immoral were hurtful and intolerant ( did not even use the word bigot at that point) she asserted that I was attacking her Church.

When I told her that same sex marriage had no consequences for her own family, she said: America is falling apart morally and sooner or later God will punish us and that she was voting yes on Hate8 and that she was voting to save America.

That gay baiting gay bashing rhetoric is the one that gets out the pitchfork and torches crowd who then attack gays on the streets and in their homes, it is hate baiting bullshit.

>>You might find someone who disagrees with their church and might just help them out of the cult.<<

You are kidding, right? We are not concerned about deprogramming Culties, we are in a human rights struggle about the core of our very humanity and tepid liberalism and weak aphorisms are not productive.

[WillParkinson]

27. No, I'm not kidding.

There were Mormon groups who demonstrated against Prop 8. I'd like to know how they can balance a no vote with what their church is doing.

Shoot me. I'm actually interested. I likely won't agree with it, but I would like to know.

[Zuiderelle]

28. Edit... I see your link above...

And my response to that is that I will support any ex-Mormon who actively opposed Prop 8. But if they continue to be active in the Mormon Church, even after realizing that their church funded this hate, then they STILL will not get my support.

Period.

[mitchtv]

29. You have to admit that they are a hateful cult,

and those that opposed 8 among them are a rare breed. We've heard from the so called Xians before about how they are the real Xians, but they have meekly shut up, sat in the back of the bus, and let the Pharisees take over their pulpits and airwaves. Evil flourishes when good men do nothing.If they are tithing they suck,

[bluedawg12]

33. It was rhetorical - but it was about this: "might just help them out of the cult"

This is not a deprogramming movement.

It is an equal rights movement - our task is not to help them out of their cult.

As far as why some of the cult voted No to H8--good question, but, again, it focuses on ther cult and distracts from our fight for equality.

[WillParkinson]

36. I am not saying don't boycott those who directly donated to No on 8...

I agree they should be held accountable.

All I'm saying is that not every single Mormon should be targeted. Some of them did demonstrate against it. Some of them did vote no.

I would like to know how they balance that vote with what their church is doing.

[bluedawg12]

47. Those that voted NO are still tithing to the Cult that voted yes.

Now, your hypothetical: "not every single Mormon should be targeted." Because, "Some of them did demonstrate against it. Some of them did vote no."

That's really kind of silly, as it is your hypothetical that the boycott intends to target "every single" cult member.

We don't have the ability to single out every single Cult Member even if we wanted to, we can't really now who is and is not a member of that group.

The boycott is aimed at those whose donations appear on a list provided by law , as well as, major business entities owned by that cult.

So, this notion you keep alluding to, about gays singling out individuals strictly on the basis of their association with a tax exempt entity, that behaved like a PAC/lobbyist group, is false.


BTW - we did post here on GLBT, and praise those who did speak up against H8, including a SF football player and his wife.

Giving credit where credit is due cuts both ways.

Further,I wonder just how much support Cult members give to openly gay businesses? Since their teachings are that gays are immoral and a danger to America? Zero would be my guess, also, my guess would be that they have been boycotting us and we haven't even started to look at that.

In addition to tithing, in addition to the majority of of the Cult supporting anti-same sex marriage in Calif. and Arizona, in addition to the massive amounts of money donated for the Hate8 measure by individuals, where were these so called good people and allies within that group for the last decade, when that cult had already decided that their policy would be to fight justice and equality under law for one minority - specifically gays?

We could posit three preconditions for amnesty:
1.) They did oppose Hate8 publicly before the vote.
2.) Publicly admitted they voted no, which can never be proven in so far as the voting booth.
3.) They publicly declare that they will stop tithing, so long as that cult has institutionalized bigotry as part of their canon and then actually stop tithing.

You know what those people would be called? Excommunicated.

[WillParkinson]

48. Guess what....

I agree with almost everything you've said.

I fully agree with: The boycott is aimed at those whose donations appear on a list provided by law , as well as, major business entities owned by that cult.

I try to respect those individuals who have voiced disagreement with the church on this issue. All I want to know is how they balance this issue with their church.

And, by the way, do you have the link handy for those businesses? I want to see if any of them in Wisconsin donated. (Please don't let my job be on there....)

[bluedawg12]

52. "All I want to know is how they balance this issue with their church."

That question should go to those cult members that voted no to H8. OK?

There are lists here on DU GLBTQ - I can find them, I am certain you will too.

[terrya]

31. I couldn't have said it better. Thank you for expressing this.

[ColoradoMagician]

30. Hey WillBowen, why don't you practice what you preach

WillBowen since you are such a diplomat, why don't you spend your time talking to all of the Mormons out there and stop trying to kill threads on DU.

[WillParkinson]

32. Kill threads?

So if we disagree I should...what? Shut up, sit in the back of the bus?

No thanks. I have every right to speak as do you.

[ColoradoMagician]

38. Then go speak to a mormon.

You just like to cause problems here on DU

[WillParkinson]

39. If you feel I'm causing problems...

Please feel free to alert on my messages.

I'm not disagreeing with you about boycotting. I only disagree on the extent.

[ColoradoMagician]

40. Can't alert everytime someone is an antagonist.

If I may quote your own profile - Hobby "Annoying people. It's what I do. It's what I live for."

[donco6]

42. That explains a lot. n/t

[WillParkinson]

43. Wow...

That's like 7 years old.

Better idea: Use ignore. Then you don't have to worry about my posts.

[ColoradoMagician]

45. quoting you is 7 years old?

Why don't you ignore MY posts, then I have to see your responses since you won't have anything to respond to.

[WillParkinson]

46. That quote...

Is 7 years old. It's the one I made when I first joined Democratic Underground. Sorry I never updated it.

And I don't want to ignore your posts. I've seen some stuff that you've posted I do agree with.

I'm sorry we don't see eye-to-eye on this particular subject. I agree with most of it, just can't quite agree to everything. But that's just me.

[bluedawg12]

49. WillBowden- The problem is You framing Our message falsely

We have a public list of donors and they ( as a business) are legitmate tragets for economic sanctions if they have a business.

Why give your money to support those who take away our rights?

We have the names of major corporations that are cult member owned - and they are legitmate tragets for economic sanctions.

So, when you frame it as boycotting "every single" cult member, you are spinning the truth.

As I said before, we are not looking up individual cult members with some magic list- we are holing accoutable those who supported H8 and businesses (and there are many of them it turns out) who are owned by a group who has worked aggressively against human rights.

Would you buy stock in a company that sold polar bear rugs or elephant ivory, capitalized on war, profiteered in Iraq just for some quick examples, or supported any other unethical action?

[WillParkinson]

50. See post 48.

Please. And thank you.

[bluedawg12]

53. Disinegenuous. Sorry but #48

states that all you want to know is why Cult members who voted against H8 voted that way. Again, you need to ask them.

My comment directly above addressed your other concerns about a blanket boycott of "ever single" cult member, that was another of your concerns here on this thread and I pointed out that you did not frame the boycott fairly and I explained why.

[bluedawg12]

35. When you got 'em by their wallet their hearts and minds will follow.

That is apparently true for those who implicitly recognize the power of peaceful economic sanctions, or boycotts, and spend lot's of energy arguing why it should not be done. That seems to confirm that it is an effective tactic.