So why am I not divorced yet?

[grannylib]

I'm having a hard time wrapping my brain around the "gay marriage threatens 'traditional' marriage" meme.

OK, I confess...I AM divorced. From Husband #1. But that divorce was in 1981, long before same-sex marriage was legalized anywhere in the United States. So golly, what happened?
I'll tell you what: physical abuse threatens marriage. Emotional and psychological abuse threatens marriage. That's what happened to me. Abuse that was never acknowledged by my ex; never dealt with, admitted, apologized for, or STOPPED.
We tried, mind you...or I should say, I tried. I took my marriage vows seriously. When I said, "For better, for worse...'til death do us part..." I meant it. I admit, it hadn't even occurred to me at the time that my death might be a lot more imminent than I thought. It never occurred to me that my husband (who had sworn to love, honor, yadda yadda yadda) might try to do me in within a week or so of having taken that vow. When he told me he planned to be a triple-A husband, little did I suspect that meant Abusive Alcoholic Asshole. So when the drinking and the violence started, I insisted on counseling. I tried to keep it together. I tried to be the understanding wife.

I'm far from a perfect human, God knows. I know I have my flaws. But I don't think ANY person deserves to have the kitchen table overturned on top of him/her, for having forgotten to put the milk on the table at supper. I don't think ANY person deserves to be dragged down the hall of the marriage therapist's office by the hair, being kicked in the back at the same time. I don't think ANY person deserves to be called vicious names; to be accused of non-existent infidelity; to have dishes flung at one's head; to be verbally and emotionally and physically battered.
So yeah, abuse threatens marriage.

Here's what else can threaten a marriage:
Chronic or serious illness. The death of a child. Addiction. Financial worries. Unemployment. Infidelity. Just to name a few...

I've had some experience with a couple of these, too. I've been married to my second husband for almost 24 years now, and we've faced money problems, life-threatening illness, and the death of our firstborn. That last was probably the toughest thing any parent can face; we lost our beloved daughter to a drunk driver, just a few months before she would have wed the father of her two young children. At least she wouldn't have been denied that right, had she lived...we wouldn't have had to fight for her to be able to do that.

We've been lucky. We've managed to survive those potential threats, and have worked at growing stronger as a couple as a result of those challenges.
But same-sex marriage? Holy shit, that's not even on the RADAR as a potential cause for a split. How the hell could it be? How can the thought of a same-sex couple wanting to commit to one another in a lifetime of monogamous fidelity possibly threaten our marriage, or that of anyone else?
Rather, does it not uphold marriage as the ideal? Does it not say, that's the brass ring...that's the ultimate commitment goal...that's what many loving couples want to publicly declare?
Granted, not every opposite-sex couple choose to marry, nor should they be forced to. I'm sure there are same-sex couples who feel the same way, whether out of fear of commitment, not wanting to 'mess up a good thing,' the costs involved, the legal hoops to jump through, or whatever. But for those who DO want a public, legal, recognized marriage, why the hell should they be denied that? If they are adults, why can't they enter into that contract with one another? And why can't it be a marriage, just like any other?
I'm sorry to hear that there are some folks out there whose marriages are on such shaky ground that the thought of another couple wanting that same level of commitment would destroy their legal relationship. Must have built that house on sand, eh?
I'm happy to say that my feet, and my husband's, are on pretty solid rock. Our marriage has not always been smooth sailing, and if we live long enough, we may yet hit stormy seas. But I am confident that, should we ever face a serious threat to our closing-on-a-quarter-century marriage, it WON'T be because Adam and Steve, or Ada and Eve, decided they want the same level of legal and social recognition for their relationship that we all too often take for granted.

For those who want to 'preserve marriage':
Support equal pay for equal work.
Support stronger families, of ALL kinds. (Real 'family values' means valuing all families. Honest.)
Work to end poverty.
Work for full employment.
Work to end disease.
Work to end abuse.
Work to overcome addiction.
But please DON'T tell me that love isn't love. Don't tell me that the gay couple down the street, who may have been together even longer than you and your spouse, are not entitled to marry. Don't tell me that the lesbian couple whose kids attend your kids' school, aren't a 'real' family.
It IS a civil rights issue. And America should be at the forefront of the movement to grant those rights to all its citizens, not playing catch-up.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

1. Kick and Recommend

From your keyboard to President Obama's ears.

[grannylib]

17. I'll keep posting and working and hoping...

Yes, we CAN!

[Kali]

2. It just boggles my mind that anybody can even say that with a straight (pun?) face.

One EXCELLENT step forward and a HUGE, embarrassing step back. We are a wacky country.

[auntAgonist]

3. excellent post grannylib

:applause:

K&R too.

kesha

[grannylib]

18. Thanks much! Posted also on my diary at DailyKos

under GammaRae -

[RedLetterRev]

39. Rec'd here and there both

Your experience with your ex sounds an awful lot like an experience I had with an ex of mine. It's sad to say that hetero marriages don't have a lock on spousal abuse. I remember that same shining moment, too, when I realized, like you, when someone thought they were giving me the last good reason to stay in that relationship, it hit me like a lead balloon it was the best reason to go. Right then.

It took the protection of the sheriff's office (who, thank Spirit, were understanding) to get him out of my life and that time I didn't end up in the emergency room getting stitched up again. But I got free.

Now I'm blessed to have the most wonderful, loving, gentle, loyal, passionate, sexy, smart, and perfect (for me) man in my life. In February, we will have 13 years together. One of these days, I'll marry 'im, too :)

Thanks for such a wonderful essay. When I read letters like yours, I keep hope.

:loveya:

[nichomachus]

4. Please wait. You're on my list.

I've got about 22 more marriages to break up before I get to yours. Please be patient. I'm only one person.

[Dr.Phool]

15. Am I on your list?

My wife and I have actually gone so far as to attend a wedding reception for a wonderful lesbian couple she worked with.

And we know a couple of guys who are going to tie the knot soon. We'll attend theirs also.

We can't last much longer now.

[grannylib]

19. *lol* You're welcome to bust in and try, and I'll give you tea and scones

for your efforts ;-) We'll have a lovely afternoon :hug:

[liberalhistorian]

63. Well, hubby and I celebrate our first anniversary

this Sunday, so you'd better hurry up and get to ours first!!! :evilgrin:

[bluedawg12]

5. Very well said, marriage is threatened from societal ills and from within

all of the things you mentioned that threaten any family need to be addressed.

In addition, encouraging GLBTQ people to settle down to a stable long term relationship and supporting it seems to be a good for society and not a bad thing.

However, our lives are being used as a political football in the power struggle by a rw which is now bankrupt of any other ideals,other than, flogging the cultural wars.

[grannylib]

20. Yeah, time to do a Lucy Van Pelt, yank that football, and knock the

kickers on their collective ass :hug:

[xchrom]

6. recommend

[grannylib]

21. Thanks for reading!

:hug:

[tavalon]

7. Here's the thing

That's what they've been told to say by their religious "leaders". The reality is that they are homophobes and have never examined why and this seems like a convenient way to justify what they feel. That's the main reason it doesn't make any sense to us - it doesn't make any sense to anyone who thinks about it but they aren't thinking about it.

[grannylib]

22. Yeah, I had a pastor who pushed this once... and I told him just

what I said in the journal - "I'm really sorry to hear that your marriage is on such shaky ground that it would be threatened by anyone else wanting to commit to each other." His jaw was on the FLOOR. He had no answer to that.

[NMMNG]

8. Thank you. You get it.

We're no threat to "traditional marriage", whatever that is. That's just a convenient cover for "we hate fags but we don't want to admit it openly". They make us out to be the menace to them while they're seeking to harm us. Then when we (justifiably) fight back it feeds right into their persecution complex.

[grannylib]

23. Exactly...it seems that some folks really NEED a "them" to hate

They need their hatred; they need their fear; I don't know why, really...but they are so reluctant to give it up...

[NMMNG]

32. It's the nature of the RRRW

Without an enemy to fight they have no identity. The "Commies" are gone so now it's us. Read "American Fascists" by Chris Hedges. It will all become frighteningly clear.

[hisownpetard]

69. Without their script of fear, they wouldn't know who or how to be.

Great post, grannylib!

:hi:

[jhrobbins]

48. Buffy is right-it is all about 'we hate fags' actually it's that and we're

afraid of fags. This marriage threat is just the excuse du jour and when it is poo-poo'd they will come up with another, until many many days, weeks, months, years (you know it's years)from now we will come out of the wasteland and see that all this stuff is just stuff and not important (I did my best to do a Faulkner stream of consciousness post here)

[Ecumenist]

9. A-Bloody-MEN!! That's what I told my uncle who actually voted yes

on that monstrosity and he's B-L-A-C-K! He doesn't attend a black church, it's primarily white in Merced California.

He said the major reasons that pushed him to vote for proposition hate was that ministers would be forced to marry them or be arrested or sues. I asked him how that could be true when me and my husband were refused services by a minister because he's white and I'm black? Did he even think about how bloody stupid a motivation that is? Interracial couples have always bee accutely aware that alot of clergy have issues with them and performing marriage ceremonies between us. When's the last time has anyone heard of lawsuits or outright arrests being made against farmdirt stupid ministers because they refused to officiate at a marriage ceremony of an interracial couple?

[yardwork]

12. Something like 18,000 gay couples were married in California between last spring and election day

and not one of them - not one - forced any church or minister to sanctify their marriage. It's sad that people believed those lies that were spread about ministers being forced to marry people. How could the government force a church or minister to do anything? Churches are independent private organizations.

In fact, as you probably know, there are plenty of clergy who will perform marriages for gay people. That's not the problem. The problem is the government.

I'm sorry that a minister refused to marry you and your husband out of bigotry. That's just sad. We have a long way to go...

[Ecumenist]

51. You know Yardwork, the worse thing is that people

would fall for this craptastic load of stupidity. this uncle who voted for that prop hate has a mixed granddaughter. His DIL is Scandinavian in descent, his granddaughter is mixed and at least two of his grandparents were white, (my ggrandparents). My other Uncle who is fron the deep south(South Carolina), who is Catholic and wasn't even able to vote until he left home, who participated in the protests and sit-ins at the lunch counters in the south, voted AGAINST it because he understood what it could lead to.

My Bohemian Czech baby and me have been together happily for the better part of almost 11 years, going on 8 years of marriage. W were the best of friends for 10 years before we began to date and I can't tell you how many of my friends ENVY my relationship with him. The way I see it, it was the loss of the clergy and anyone else who had a problem with our marrying.

I don't know anyone who has a marriage as great as mine

[yardwork]

74. Here's to you and your wonderful marriage!

With folks like you on the side of human rights, we will prevail.

:toast:

[grannylib]

27. Oh man, in this century (or even the latter part of the last one) it's

incredible that there are still people resisting interracial marriage. I'm really sorry you faced that kind of shit.
:hug:

[Ecumenist]

47. Thank you so VERY much for your comment, GrannyLib!

Unfortunately, there are FAR too many stupid, moronic troglodytes still polluting the planet who promulgate this crap about marriage between peole that they don't agree with somehow damage and threaten conventional marriage. When I spoke to my uncle I told him that neither my marriage nor any other is threatened by OTHER PEOPLE GETTING MARRIED unless someone in one marriage has something going on with one or both of the partners in the other.

As you so eloquently put it: the number one threat to marriage is A-B-U-S-E of any sort, closely followed by infidelity and/or addiction issues and other various and sundry personal failings. My thing is that I believe most of these self-righteous cretins have problems with ANYONE OR ANYTHING that is different from what they consider "normal", including but not limited to people like me.

I have been trying to make people understand that if these sorts think that they can take away the rights of ANY groups AND get away with it, how long will it take before that slippery slope includes interracial marriages, interreligious marriages.....hell, maybe they'll rescind the right of the browner types to be legally married or even be recognised as human beings? There are a sizable number of people in these types who actually believe that mess.

It's such an embarrassing thing to see ANYONE who has had to struggle for the basic rights as a human being to vote FOR that proposition.

[jhrobbins]

49. "It's such an embarrassing thing to see ANYONE who has had to

struggle for the basic rights as a human being to vote FOR that proposition."

A friend of mine once said this about the ERA and it has stuck with me ever since

[Beartracks]

10. Kick AND Strongly Recommend n/t

[grannylib]

24. Thanks for reading, and I LOVE your sig pic!

:hug:

[yardwork]

11. I'm so sorry for your loss and your terrible first marriage.

Thank you for your kind post and I wish you all blessings.

[grannylib]

25. Thanks for taking the time to read it

And blessings right back to you and yours :hug:

[ladym55]

13. Right on, Grannylib!!!

This straight white woman is MAD AS HELL! I still can't believe that there (a) WAS a prop 8 in California, and (b) that it actually PASSED in a state I thought actually had a clue.

Newsflash to all the right-wing churches (that includes YOU Dr. Dobson, Mormons, and Knights of Columbus!), news organizations, and bible-thumping "morans": I'm so TIRED of being told that marriage is between a man and a woman and that SOMEHOW gays and lesbians getting married will mess that up. :wtf:

Grannylib, YOU list the REAL reasons marriages fail ... and, gee whiz, gays marrying just doesn't show up.

In 2004, 70% of the great minds in Ohio (where I live) voted in a HORRIBLE constitutional amendment designed to (a) block the rights of gays to marry, and (b) help re-elect Shrub. I was SO ashamed of what Ohio had done ... still am.

This is a civil rights issue. This nation needs to locate a clue.

[grannylib]

26. Well, when it comes to Chimpy the Unelected Imbecile, at least...

Ohio had some "help" from Wally O'Dell and Deibold and whatshisface the Sec'y of State...Blackwell??
Maybe that had something to do with the passage of Ohio's version of Prop H8 too...
We'll keep fighting...
:hug:

[badgerpup]

14. K and R

...and that's what I'd term a 'santified' marriage (your second one).
It's got blood, sweat, tears, heartbreak, love, laughter, strength, patience...all put in over a very long haul.

That's what gives a marriage sanctity (IMHO, at least)...not just some magic words said over you and what equipment you bring to the party.

[grannylib]

16. You are so right...and any two committed people can bring that

same sanctity to a marriage. :hug:

[Libertyfirst]

28. Best damn definitation of a "sanctified" marriage ever.

My wife and I have been married 50 years and you are absolutely right a sanctitied marriage is built by the couple involved through all the good and bad experiences of life. The right of marriage is a human right. Human rights should never be put to a vote. Love and devotion have never depended on gender and never will.

[grannylib]

29. Amen to that.

[Ecumenist]

52. God bless you LibertyFirst!!

My grandparents were married almost 68 years and were together for 72, believe it or not. He met her when he was 9 and she couldn't get rid of him with an ugly stick. LOL!! He left in 2002 and she followed November 12 2007. God willing, I'll be able to say that I have been with my husband and have a longg a blessed and happy union as you and later in time, as my Grandpa and Grandma Ewey. Your marriages are what should be held up as a standard to what marriage should be, not something that is so shaky and weak that it would collapse like a house build on sand because someone else decided to get married and make civil and legal committment.


Welcome to DU, btw , right glad to have ya! :hi:

[bertman]

30. Proudly recommended. Thank you for that eloquent post, grannylib.

[grannylib]

31. Thanks for taking the time to read it, and for the rec...

I hate hatred. I really do.

[shireen]

33. what can we do?

Not all of us can be at protests. There's work, illness, no rallies in your town, etc..

But we can show support by wearing rainbow hand bracelets, putting rainbow magnetic ribbons on our car, shining a blue candle by the window. There are a bunch of suggestions on where to get stuff at
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4467839
(BTW, some people live in places where wearing such jewelry could be dangerous -- please exercise caution.)

Some tv shows have had realistic portrayals of gay relationships, like Brothers & Sisters (who else wanted to slap Kevin today for being so overbearing?!) We should write to the sponsors of those shows, thanking them for sponsoring a show that depicts gays realistically and with respect.

It's great that so many people are speaking out against prop 8 and other similar actions against gay couples. Now, let's back up this passion with action.

[grannylib]

34. And talk to people...from what I hear, personal contact was effective

in getting people to look at Obama seriously as a candidate...share your stories. Introduce your friends and family members. Un-demonize the gay folks you know to the needlessly fearful and hateful.

[BlueMTexpat]

35. Excellent post, grannylib!

What a silly distraction it is to deny marriage to people who love and want to commit to each other!

There are so many REAL problems in the world. You go, girl! :kick: :applause:

[grannylib]

55. Thanks for reading it, and welcome to DU!

:hi:

[IronLionZion]

36. It seems to mainly affect Republican marriages: McCain, Giuliani, etc. nt

[grannylib]

56. And that's one of the things that is SO frustrating about

the Reich wing opposing same-sex marriage; if they'd look at the logs in their own eyes before trying to get rid of the specks in the eyes of others....

[MannyGoldstein]

37. Massachusetts Has The Lowest Divorce Rate In The Nation

And Connecticut is fourth from lowest:

http://blueworksbetter.com/Divorce

Thus it is demonstrated that Gay marriage actually *saves* marriages.

[Number23]

45. OMG

That web site just saved my life! Thanks for posting that!!

[MannyGoldstein]

53. Thanks! It's My Own Site. n/t

[RetiredTrotskyite]

38. Wow, Grannylib....

I think you have put out an eloquent argument for the REAL danger to "traditional marriage". I am so sorry that you had to go through all that :grouphug:. I was in an abusive relationship back in the early 2000s, and it seems always to be the same tired story.

But your point is well taken--straights need to clean up their own house rather than spew crap like same-sex marriage will destroy traditional marriage.

Would that some others at DU had your compassion and open-mindedness.

[grannylib]

57. My hope is that if we all keep working to engage people, talk to them

put forth the right emotional responses, things will change...slowly, but surely...or not-so-slowly!

[mlevans]

40. Thanks very much for this excellent piece.

Wednesday of this week my wife and I will have been together 31 years, and we've also been trying to figure out how gay and lesbian couples marrying hurts our own marriage. Bottom line is it doesn't. The only way this issue even affects us is that it gets us all riled up when other people try to deny this basic right to some of our fellow travellers. It'd be so great if this whole country finally just grew up. I'm not holding my breath for that to happen, of course, but I'd surely love to see it.

[grannylib]

58. I'll keep hoping and working for that day right along with you!

:hi:

[Midlodemocrat]

41. This is outstanding. Thank you for posting.

:)

[grannylib]

59. Thanks so much, Midlodemocrat...and for taking the time to read

a rather long post! :hi:

[RedCloud]

42. This is for you granny...

For enriching our hearts and showing us your courage:

http://www.pbase.com/norman/image/902851

[grannylib]

60. Oh, dear RedCloud...you can't begin to know what a gift that is

to share that picture with me...thank you so much...

[Number23]

43. Fantastic, fantastic, fantastic

What a beautiful, truly thought provoking post. And it has the added bonus of being unpretentious and absolutely TRUE to boot.

You're right. There are lots of threats to marriage. Abuse, neglect, infidelity and everything else that you mentioned so honestly in your post definitely fall into that category. But what other folks do in THEIR home is no threat to your own marriage unless you decide to MAKE it one.

The happily (heterosexually) married #23

[grannylib]

61. Thanks much, #23...I appreciate it!

[Number23]

44. Damnation!

"Error: You've already recommended that thread."

I hate when that happens!! :)

[grannylib]

62. *lol*

[jhrobbins]

46. I was all prepared to make a glib and funny remark about this post

(you all know just how Noel Coward we can be), but after I read it-well, I just wanna say thanks.

[grannylib]

64. You're welcome...and thank YOU for taking the time to read it!

:hi:

[jhrobbins]

67. And just an FYI-my partner and I have been together for 27 years now

with no apparent heterosexual relationships as victims.

[grannylib]

68. Congratulations! Wow...you're ahead of us in years!

Well done. Maintaining relationships is work, whether it's a friendship or a marriage or whatever...
Good for you!

[mnhtnbb]

50. Too late to rec, but well stated. I am fed up with the fundie, holier-than-thou

got a direct line to the ruler of the Universe types who want to limit the rights of people who aren't just like them.

I have two sons. I hope to someday be the mother of the groom for each of them. Just because one
of them happens to be gay shouldn't deprive him of the right to wed his soul mate, should he be so lucky to find him.

[grannylib]

65. I hope you will have that chance, mnhtnbb...and that he will find

the partner of his dreams!

[kimmerspixelated]

54. So true! So excellent!

You rock, Grannylib! Also you have done a great service to pointing out what can go wrong with a marriage of ANY kind!

[grannylib]

66. Thanks so much, FitzmanAgain!

:hi:

[trickyguy]

70. K&R. For your courageous and honest post.. Totally right about

gay marriage being no threat to any other conventional marriage.

It IS a civil right and until American gets off it's ridiculously religious ass

we're not going very far with this thing. Our country has the most religiously fervent

culture - maybe in the world. At least of the "educated" nations.

So until those religious types agree that gay people and gay marriage will do no harm to

the status quo, we will have to continue taking our cause to the streets and anywhere else

people of reason will hear our story.

[grannylib]

76. I hope that non-whacko 'religious' folk will SPEAK UP

and I know many do...and overturn the stereotype that's been so prevalent since the 80s, that all Christians are fruitcakes and discriminatory bigoted assholes...
I want my religion back!

[GoddessOfGuinness]

71. While we're on the subject...

It really isn't a big deal to let your kids know that sometimes people fall in love and start families with members of the same sex.
Kids are very open to learning about the world, and will not be shocked or horrified to learn this. The people who have a problem with same-sex relationships are people who have been taught to hate.

Please, don't teach your kids to hate.

[grannylib]

77. Excellent points, you are so right. Children LEARN hate and

discrimination; it's certainly not natural.

[Ms. Toad]

72. I confess - I did in your first marriage...

1981 was the year I came out and began my now 27 year marriage. We've always called our relationship a marriage.

Sorry bout that - but I just knew you weren't married to the right one so I used my super-duper-hetero-destroying same gender marriage to make sure you were free when the right one came along.

[DarkTirade]

75. With great power comes great responsibility.

:)

[grannylib]

78. THANK YOU for saving me! If you had anything to do with making

me leave that sonofabitch, you deserve a medal!!
:hug:

[mrreowwr_kittty]

73. You rock, grannylib!!

:yourock:

[grannylib]

79. Why, thank you! I'm sure you rock as well!

:hug: