My take on this whole "alternative medicine" deal

[derby378]

2000 B.C. - Here, eat this root.
1000 B.C. - That root is useless. Here, use this ointment.
500 A.D. - That ointment is heathen. Here, say this prayer.
1500 A.D. - That prayer is superstition. Here, drink this potion.
1900 A.D. - That potion is snake oil. Here, swallow this pill.
1970 A.D. - That pill is too dangerous. Here, take this antibiotic.
2000 A.D. - That antibiotic doesn't work anymore. Here, eat this root.

I work at a medical school, and part of my experience here has been to learn a little more about the history of medicine in America. And what I've learned so far has been rather enlightening.

The first national medical association in America was not the AMA, but the American Institute of Homeopathy. These homeopaths found themselves competing with Thomsonians, eclectics, phrenologists, and assorted travelling medicine shows throughout the 19th century as they all competed in turn with "regular" medical practitioners to treat ailing Americans. During the next century, chiropractors, osteopaths, and then acupuncturists would join in the melee.

The problem with many of these "alternative" medical practitioners, as with some who opposed any form of progress in medicine, is that they believe that medicine is subject to some external dogma. Acupuncturists, homeopaths, and Therapeutic Touch practitioners all believe that an underlying energy force governs health and vitality. Naturopaths teach that there is a healing power inherent in nature itself that should not be interfered with by means of synthetic pharmaceuticals. Opponents of the use of anesthesia during labor and delivery taught that women were supposed to suffer during childbirth due to divine edict.

From my perspective, however, the physical world around us does not bend to any creed. When people get sick or injured, they need care. And when they do, there are treatments that work and treatments that are just wishful thinking. We confess that we still have much to learn; there are too many ailments and disorders that continue to bear the dreaded label of "incurable." This is only because, for the moment, we have not discovered their Achilles' heel.

That's why we must press on with education and basic medical research - not to bend nature to our will, but to understand nature a little better so that we can use that knowledge to enable more of us to enjoy life more fully.

[Orrex]

1. .

:popcorn:

[MineralMan]

21. Could you pass that popcorn bag over here, please?

[Orrex]

23. It's homeopathic popcorn

The more we dilute it, the tastier it gets!

[MineralMan]

27. Cool! Just wave your hand over it, then and I'll

sniff my fill of its essence.

[Orrex]

29. Wait... We're still talking about popcorn, right?

[MineralMan]

36. Yah. The molecules given off the popcorn into the air

should be more than adequate to give me a full therapeutic dose of popcorn essence.

In fact, I think I've already gotten a molecule or two, so I'm good.

[roguevalley]

105. so I guess acupuncture is off your list.

[Orrex]

107. If you mean the treatment that allegedly alters the body's chi flow, then it certainly is

If, however, you mean the treatment that has, in clinical studies, been demonstrated to have a possible effect on endorphins and pain receptors, thereby justifying further study, then I say that the jury's still out.


Why do you ask?

[LostinVA]

48. Me too -- gimmee!

[Orrex]

81. Step right up--there's plenty for all!

Nom nom nom.

[KittyWampus]

2. Nature is not just physical. Failure to address emotional and psychological aspects of illness

is the problem with western medicine at this point.

As does its whoring itself out to corporate America.

[Teaser]

3. there is nothing beyond the physical

matter is all there is.

[KittyWampus]

5. Good, you tell your girlfriend the only reason you have sex with her is to pass on your DNA

[Tuesday Afternoon]

8. actually with that line of thinking he can have sex with anyone

because all physical matter is the same................

[KittyWampus]

9. Well, if you're a guy, you can't pass your DNA to another guy and continue your lineage.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

18. true...

but why should physical matter care about continuing its lineage........................

[shadowknows69]

11. And you're 100% sure of this how?

And I thought there was energy in the universe too. I think there have even been some crazy ideas about turning matter into energy but my last science class was quite a while ago.

[D23MIURG23]

101. Matter and energy are interrelated by relativity.

Energy is equal to mass times the speed of light squared: e=mc^2.

[Taverner]

12. I agree - and to answer the question below, its not to pass on DNA

But to experience that all-powerful brain chemical cocktail

[KittyWampus]

14. So Darwin's Finches were all about "that all-powerful brain chemical cocktail"?

LOL!

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

Are you suggesting there's something else to it?

Magic joo joo maybe?

[Taverner]

49. Yes

And so are you

[Maru Kitteh]

88. You don't think animals other than humans have orgasms?

You don't think finches enjoy orgasms? I think the fact that most animals, humans included, have emotional lives that affect their physical being is pretty much incontrovertible. It's also a fact that emotions themselves consist of chemical and electrical, physical events of which we are just now coming to a greater understanding.

To deny that our very complex emotions and behaviors are not most often rooted in solid, physical, biological underpinnings is. .. .. .. daft.

[uppityperson]

89. Best line of the day so far "You don't think finches enjoy orgasms?"

[mopinko]

96. human beings have evolved an elaborate system for passing on our dna.

it is called the tribe. sex is part of what keeps the tribe together, keeps the pair together, to raise the offspring. they don't do too well on their own.

[Oregone]

67. True, as far as I can tell

Which means your emotional and psychological state is defined by a physical collection of neurotransmitters, hormones, synapses and neurons in the body. But this physical collection has also been associated with reciprocally working a humans physical health (and it would make sense, since the systems are pretty much chemically and physically intertwined). The placebo effect is real, psychosomatic illness can impact people, and mental health can determine physical health. Sometimes laughter is the best cure (and sometimes, its chemo).

You cannot be a scientist and disregard the emotional impact upon physical health. If you do, that is just silly, but advanced, shamanistic dogma.

[Why Syzygy]

84. There is an observer ..

There is a "You" who experiences and interprets the chemical cocktail.

[Orrex]

100. That's something for the R&T forum

There is no solid evidence that anything like a "You" or "consciousness" exists separate from the physical structure of the brain and its component neurochemistry.

[Why Syzygy]

112. It's really quite evident. No faith required. nt

[Orrex]

113. I'm not so sure

Since "you" or "I" would be the one trying to assess it, "we" would be inescapably biased.

What "we" need is an objective third party who can report to "us" about it. Suggestions?

[Why Syzygy]

114. I dunno about

getting into a circular discussion or deep inner space right now. But, would you say that those same chemicals, for example, make the decision what to eat for breakfast? Or is it "You"? Do chemicals compel us to eat shrooms? Or is it "You"? The chemicals originate and are stimulated by decisions not made by the chemicals themselves. Who then?

[Orrex]

115. I can't give you a fully-formed epistemological treatise about it, but here's a summary

The word "decision" in this context necessarily assumes a "decider," which must either be the "you" in question or some separate party. If the former, then it's begging the question; if the latter, then we first need to address who this other party might be, and then we can discuss what "you" means.

In return, let me ask you a question that might shed light on how you and I (so to speak) think about this: do you believe that pain is a "thing" or simply a perception? I'm not talking about a stimulus that causes pain, such as a laceration or emotional discomfort.

[Why Syzygy]

116. I don't know what

"begging the question" means. It's the "you", of course.

I think that I believe "pain" is a perception...

[northernlights]

72. ah...you must be a chemist

if you were a physicist, you'd say that energy is all there is, and that matter is nothing more than frozen energy.

As it is, you seem to believe that matter is all there is, and energy is just matter living it up. So you must be a chemist.

[MineralMan]

25. That's odd, since my family practice doctor always asks about

my mental and emotional health whenever I see him. I'm just fine, so we proceed to my physical concerns.

If your doctor does not do this, I suggest a change of physicians.

[shadowknows69]

31. Mine does. My mental state isn't her primary concern by her job definition

But she knows my issues so she makes sure I'm not on the ledge that week. I've had plenty of doctors who just go through the motions. Even if she's faking it, having someone care is helpful. There's no numbers to back it up, but I think someone would have to be a fool to deny it is a factor.

[uppityperson]

90. Thank the FSM for nurses as they do a lot of that. Follow up for docs, and taking time

to explain, listen, etc. Which is one of the reasons so many get out of nursing since we are pushed to do more and more and end up being able to do less actual care.

[MercutioATC]

44. Maybe he just does that with YOU....

:evilgrin:

[MineralMan]

50. Yah, probably. I'm really special and shit...

[Tuesday Afternoon]

86. more like

a special shit. :D

[derby378]

34. Let's take leprosy, for example

Leprosy has made countless people around the world into social outcasts for thousands of years. Only recently have doctors discovered an antibiotic that can actually cure leprosy. The bad news is that the antibiotic cannot repair any physical damage that the patient has already suffered, so in many cases he or she still bears the marks of a leper and is shunned by family, friends, and neighbors all the same. So in that case, there are still profound emotional and psychological effects that need to be addressed in addition to the need for a quicker diagnosis so that treatment can begin before the damage become noticeable.

[MineralMan]

40. Do you find that Hansen's Disease is a big problem

where you live? If so, then I imagine the physicians in your area are quite good at diagnosing it before it becomes disfiguring.

It's quite treatable these days, and is still vanishingly rare almost everywhere on the planet.

[derby378]

42. There's still a lot of people in India, South America, etc. who have this problem

The leper colony has sadly resisted becoming a thing of the past, due in part to the delay in treating leprosy and the social ostracism that results from the physical scars left by leprosy.

[dorkulon]

4. Well said.

The scientific method is simply the best way of investigating reality that we have. It just works better than dreaming things up.

Even folk remedies that are effective are the result of trial and error, of which the scientific method is just a formalization.

[KittyWampus]

6. And the Scientific Method has proven there are emotional/psychological components to wellness

But for some reason, a lot of people have problems with addressing the emotional and psychological needs of the infirm.

Holisitic medicine= treating WHOLE person. It doesn't repudiate allopathic medicine. It augments it.

And there are many people who realize that changing ones diet and behavior can help maintain ones health on all levels- physical, emotional and psychological.

It seems a lot of DU'ers can only imagine going to a doctor and taking a pill as the sole legitimate route to wellness.

[Orrex]

10. The scientific method has also demonstrated that therapeutic touch is nonsense,

But for some reason, a lot of people have problems letting go of a cherished belief in the face of facts.

Holistic medicine =/= nonsense, but components of it have been shown to be lacking in efficacy despite their adherents.


By all means, treat the whole person. Such treatment is not in any way at odds with scientific medicine.

[KittyWampus]

17. REALLY? You mean petting cats and dogs doesn't help people's blood pressure etc?

[Orrex]

22. Sure it does. And if it had anything to do with therapeutic touch, I'd know why you mentioned it.

:shrug:

[shadowknows69]

26. I'm sure you'll now enlighten us with your definition of theraputic touch please?

Because obviously there is a misunderstanding here.

[derby378]

37. I'm all for "pet therapy"

Our hospital used to have this golden retriever who was a real "people puppy" and loved visiting adult and pediatric patients so they pet him, scratch behind his ears, and show him some love. Unfortunately, that dog died, but I think the hospital is looking for a replacement.

[KittyWampus]

38. So, you're all for pet therapy, put PEOPLE whose goal is healing touch are woo-woos?

[derby378]

47. Pets provide love and companionship, not tweaking of "die Lebenskraft"

You speak about emotional and psychological perspectives of healing. Humans are primates and, as such, are highly social creatures. Even those who choose to isolate themselves from human society usually bond to a few woodland critters with whom they have developed a mutual understanding and comraderie. It's what we do, and it's a good thing.

I would propose that our status as social creatures helps feed the need for therapies such as TT which supposedly impart a more personal dynamic to therapy - for an experiment, I let a TT practitioner try to manipulate my aura; she was very gentle and patient, even though the experience left me unconvinced.

[uppityperson]

91. Are you seriously saying Therapeutic Touch is the same as petting a dog?

[Orrex]

99. Maybe an invisible dog

[semillama]

125. Like this one?

[Why Syzygy]

85. A disabled man in a wheelchair ..

My ex-H's grandfather was non-responsive and wheelchair bound. When we had our dog with us at his house, he reached out to pet her. That was the ONLY time anyone ever saw him have a response to anything.

[shadowknows69]

24. Then I guess my friend got robbed when she had to pay for those science courses

So she could become a licensed massage therapist. Even if there is no hard science for theraputic touch being beneficial if it makes someone feel better than how could you call it nonsense? As someone with massive depression all my life I can tell you that anything that makes you feel good instead of bad contributes to your overall health.

[Orrex]

30. If she paid to become qualified for any sort of "energy healing," then she was robbed, yes.

[shadowknows69]

33. I'll pass that along to her Professor.

[Orrex]

39. Please do. And ask the professor to present data on the efficacy of therapeutic touch as advertised

Not the incidental benefit of simple human contact or interaction. We're talking specifically about the "energy healing" component of therapeutic touch, not massage therapy as a whole.

[Bill McBlueState]

51. this is one of the roots of woo tactics

Deliberately blur the line between something we all know works (simple human contact / interaction) and something the evidence doesn't support (magical force fields or whatever). They do it because hugs are free, but manipulating magical force fields isn't.

[shadowknows69]

54. I don't recall saying anything about magical force fields.

I said my friend had to take SCIENCE classes. She has taken it upon herself to also learn some homeopathic techniques but it doesn't diminish her qualifications in any way.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

57. I disagree.

Studying homeopathy is a big black stain on her qualifications.

It's like having a sign outside your practice saying "don't go to this idiot, he or she is a quack."

[Name removed]

60. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

Hey, no need to get personal.

It's not my fault your friend's a dumbass.

[dorkulon]

69. .

:rofl:

[JHB]

61. For instance, here's "therapeutic touch" as opposed to massage, pet stroking,...

...and other everyday forms of physical interpersonal contact.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therapeutic_touch

Therapeutic touch (TT), also called Non-Contact Therapeutic Touch (NCTT) or Distance Healing,<1> is an energy therapy claimed to promote healing and reduce pain and anxiety. TT practitioners say that by placing their hands on or near the patient they can detect and manipulate the patient's putative energy field.<2> Although there are 251 articles on TT on PubMed<3> quality of controlled research is variable. One study published in the Journal of the American Medical Association found that TT practitioners could not detect the presence or absence of a hand placed a few inches above theirs when their vision was obstructed.<4><5><6> The existence of a "biofield" or "bioenergetic field," a necessary component of TT theory, directly contradicts many principles of modern physics, chemistry, and biology.<7><8>
...
Therapeutic Touch claims to have roots in ancient healing practices,<11> such as laying on hands, although it has no connection with any religious beliefs. Dr. Krieger claims that, "A basic recognition upon which Therapeutic Touch was developed initially was exactly that in the final analysis, it is the healee (client) who heals himself. The healer or therapist, in this view, acts as a human energy support system until the healee's own immunological system is robust enough to take over."<12>

[MineralMan]

66. Dang! I didn't even know I had a "putative" energy field.

I wonder if that's the reason girls weren't attracted to me as a teenager? :bounce:

[Confusious]

68. Sure its not 'punative'?

An invisible hand gives you a smack on the back of the head?

[MineralMan]

71. No, that's my wife's job, and she's definitely not a "putative"

wife. Nothing invisible about her hand smacking me on the back of the head. :bounce:

[Orrex]

77. If she did have an invisible hand, would that mean you're married to Adam Smith?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

52. A professor of massage?

Is that like an "imagineer?"

[shadowknows69]

58. Actually I was calling Orrex "Professor", but he misunderstood my snark.

And yes "Genius" she had Professors that taught her massage therapy.

Here. Google is your friend.

Massage therapists use many different massage techniques and methods. These include the following, among others:

Swedish medical massage
Shiatsu
Connective Tissue Massage
Amma
Neuromuscular Massage
Tuina
Reflexology
Acupressure
Polarity Therapy

What credentials do New York licensed massage therapists have?
New York licensed massage therapists have completed a massage training program, including the following:

courses in anatomy, physiology, neurology, myology (study of muscles and their function), pathology, hygiene, first aid, CPR, and infection control procedures
course work, training and practice in the theory and techniques of both oriental and western massage
In addition, New York massage therapists have passed a State licensing examination.

more:
<http://www.op.nysed.gov/mtbroch.htm>

[Orrex]

79. Perhaps a comma would have your snark more effective

Just saying.

[shadowknows69]

83. You are correct sir. I plead guilty to bad typing in the first.

[uppityperson]

92. We were required to take a 2 day course on TT or Reiki. I really didn't want to have to pay

or take the time to do it but it was a requirement to get licensed in WA. The licensing exam had questions like "what color is your heart chakra", which I figured out, being scientific and all and knowing about rainbows.

However, there were others who resented having to take a class in Sports Massage, since they only wanted the energy stuff. Problem I see is that massage therapy is not universally regulated, not licensed the same state to state, and contains too broad categories. They finally split animal massage out, but you still need to be a LMP then animal extra certification

[northernlights]

74. perhaps you could cite some sources

for your claims.

[Orrex]

76. Emily Rosa offered a thoroughly damning refutation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emily_Rosa

[TZ]

15. I have yet to meet a doctor

who doesn't believe that diet exercise and stress levels play a part in health. You don't have to believe in magic water to know that.
They also know that there are things that aren't necessarily going to be affected by that too. So many alties have no idea what allopathic medicine really is about. They just assume that all doctors are merely pill pushers.

[KittyWampus]

28. Wow, diet and excercise. First, let's look at the sad excuse of a food pyramid doctors foisted

on the public over the decades. Every one has been a sad excuse and simply a reflection of the food industry, not real human needs. Have a heaping plate of pasta or bread at every meal. Sound healthy?

Oh, and stress levels.

Tell me, what do doctors suggest for stress levels?

Do they suggest woo-woo stuff like YOGA? Why yes, they do. :D

And what do they suggest for emotional and psychological support?

Not much ultimately. Maybe a support group.

If YOU want to look at the world and your body as merely physical that's fine. You want to go to a doctor who simply treats mechanical problems. Fine.

A lot of us see the world as something more complex and prefer seeing doctors who do as well.

There are increasing numbers of allopathic doctors who are comfortable with alternative modalities.

[MineralMan]

35. How interesting. You must not have found a good

physician, then. Or, perhaps, you never consult one.

I cannot remember the last time I saw a doctor like the ones you describe. All the ones I have seen for years deal with far more than just your physical well-being.

I suppose that, if one hasn't seen a doctor trained since the 1960s, one might have a different viewpoint.

[Orrex]

41. You're aware that "allopathic" is an artificial term coined by a homeopath, right?

Its intent is to normalize "alternative" "medicine" by redefining scientific medicine as anything that isn't homeopathic.

[shadowknows69]

62. thefreedictionary.com is your friend

Allopathic

al·lop·a·thy (-lp-th)
n.
A method of treating disease with remedies that produce effects different from those caused by the disease itself.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

German Allopathie : Greek allos, other; see allo- + Greek patheia, suffering; see -pathy.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

allo·pathic (l-pthk) adj.
allo·pathi·cal·ly adv.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2003. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

<http://www.thefreedictionary.com/allopathic>

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

65. So is wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allopathy

[dorkulon]

16. Well obviously a person's mental health is important.

I'm not sure what kind of holistic methods you have in mind, but I'd agree that a person who feels better is more likely to get better. But if you're talking about purely superstitious treatments, I'd just add that those can only have a placebo effect if the patient believes in them. If for instance, someone performed a Reiki ceremony before I went into surgery, it would have no effect, because I just don't believe in it. I'd be for making the patient's environment as positive as possible, and doing whatever works to give them hope, but I'd want to apply hard science to see what really works in the psychological regard just as with any other type of medicine.

[OKNancy]

20. good post! n/t

[Tuesday Afternoon]

45. there is history and there is science and then there is

the history of science......................

[shadowknows69]

7. Well said K+R

[Locrian]

13. confusion

Part of the problem is that there is a tremendous amount of confusion with what "conventional" medicine provides. The profit interests of big pharma, universities, research, etc are NOT interested in preventing or even curing disease.

The system is interested in PROFIT. This drives the behavior that we see today with questionable drugs being approved with a whole host of side effects and downright dangers, not to mentioned shoddy "studies" on their effectiveness. Hence confusion.

I use "system" because it, like corporations, have become almost a real entity. I still believe a lot (not all but most) people would LOVE to actually be a part of helping others. But our system doesn't push that behavior.


The "scientific method" is being corrupted by the emphasis on profit. When that gets corrupted, then it ceases to be a source of "truth" or the "best info we have" and bows to whatever makes the most money. That loss of truth is what leads to a general search for alternatives - since nothing can be trusted anymore, why not try "voodo"?



So we see it manifest in distrust, wanting more control, fear, confusion etc. And a search for an alternative that appeals (sometimes incorrectly or as a scam) to wanting to do SOMETHING to help.

[TZ]

19. If not interested in preventing disease

why have vaccines? Including I might add..ones that now protect agaisnt forms of cancer?
And I've met plenty of people in "the system" as you call it. Interested in helping people. In fact, in my 10+ years of being in the "industry" I've never met anyone in it solely for the money. I'm tired of these fucking lies about the money grubbing scientist.

[conscious evolution]

32. You never met anyone in the biz for money?

Are you saying you have never met a person who owns stock in pharm companies?
You have never met a person who spends there own money on research and developement without expectation of making money off of it?

Okay.

[Orrex]

43. As opposed to homeopaths, who charge nothing?

:shrug:

[MineralMan]

55. Boy, you have some nerve to suggest that homeopathetic practitioners

and naturopaths are in it for the money! Sheesh! Just because they couldn't afford to go to medical school and had to settle for one of these practices doesn't mean they have anything other than the well-being of their clients in mind.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

59. at this point in time ---

we are all in it for the money....

don't tell me you wrote your little story just because you like to write stories...................

[Orrex]

75. I'll have you know that that was the sweetest $5.42 that I ever earned

Sure we're in it for the money, and I don't have a problem with that, except when one the homeopathic crowd--members of a quite lucrative industry--condemn doctors or Big Pharma for being profitable. Sauce for the goose-shaped tofu sculpture...

Incidentally, that's not a defense of unethical practices undertaken in pursuit of profit. When doctors or Big Pharma engage in deceptive practices, they should be censured for it. And when naturopathic practitioners make unsubstantiated claims (e.g., "this supplement will restore balance") then they should likewise be censured for it. Whether a little or a lot of money is on the line isn't the problem, either; the deception is wrong either way.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

78. whatever----------

look at Wall Street and then get back to me..................

I am not sure the OP intended the subject to be the way this thread is going.

on edit: there are no exceptions in the real world.........................

[Orrex]

80. I'm sure he didn't, but that's how it goes

[Tuesday Afternoon]

82. fo shizzle

have a good one.................................real world is calling, bye now

[Sal Minella]

46. Easy, there....it isn't "the scientist" who's the money-grubber, it's the corporate entities

who publish fake journals so they can cite "research papers" they've bankrolled, who push "meds" with harmful side-effects that are glossed over in the patient advisory literature until the drug kills a few dozen people, who relentlessly advertise on TV "Ask your doctor" about the latest money-maker for a company that has minimal interest in healing and maximum interest in long-term sales to people who have life-long conditions that can't be cured but can be treated throughout the patient's lifetime.

Vaccines are sold at a profit, too --

People's diseases are "farmed" long-term by pharmaceutical corporations for profit, because that's what corporations do. The profitability of Big Pharma is legendary.

The individual scientist or would-be health-care professional has to find a way of making a living in this nightmare.

[mopinko]

117. not interested in prevention? i guess i am just

imagining that i am taking lipitor. and fosamax. and benicar. i haven't had a heart attack, i do not yet have osteoporosis, and high blood pressure, in and of itself, wasn't bothering me at all.

[Voice for Peace]

53. A lot of alternative medicine is based on the notion that the human immune system

is brilliant by nature. Even conventional medicine nowadays is incorporating much of what was once considered kooky.. for example, that vitamin c boosts the immune system.

Don't be quick to disregard or ridicule alternative medicine -- even though there are plenty of kooks out there selling cures. And maybe those cures even work for a few people, who knows.

Many of the medicines approved and being dispensed are poisonous and turn out to have long-term detrimental effects. People are used as guinea pigs. Symptoms are treated, rather than the underlying cause(s) of the symptoms. Very often the symptoms are the immune system's response to the illness. Many medicines undermine the person's own immune system and make them weaker overall.

I am more comfortable with medicines that have been used for thousands of years, than those recently developed by pharmaceutical companies. I've got a lot of personal experience with successful use of homeopathic remedies & herbal remedies on myself and my family. Of my 3 kids, only once growing up did we use antibiotics. (they're all in their 20's now.) We supported the immune system with diet, herbs, lifestyle, etc.

I encourage you to explore further before coming to any conclusions, or trusting your health to someone who doesn't consider the validity of alternative medicines.

[MineralMan]

64. Non-traditional medicine is, in large part,

based on the fact that most illnesses are self-limiting and disappear on their own due to the body's immune response. So, if you go to the homeopathetic or naturopathetic practitioner with 90% of the illnesses that plague mankind, you will be well in a few days. If you then attribute your recovery to the treatments of those practitioners, you will believe that they have healed you.

The trouble lies in the other 10% of ailments in your lifetime. In those cases, you may not recover without modern medical intervention.

Most people seek medical attention for self-limiting ailments. They will recover on their own, whether they seek attention or not.

Further, most people, through most of their lives, never contract any ailment capable of killing them. That's especially true since we have vaccines for the most deadly of the common ailments that killed so many before they were developed. Smallpox, polio, diphtheria, etc. So, kids today don't catch those potentially deadly illnesses. Even those who fail to get vaccinated don't get them, as a rule, since there's no pool of sick people, thanks to widespread vaccination.

If you believe that alternative medical practitioners are the correct choice, you'll be fine, about 90% of the time. Good odds. The other 10% of the time, you'll end up presenting yourself to a real doctor...in good time, I hope.

[mopinko]

111. many chronic illnesses wax and wane. this makes them prime candidates

for bs. ask anyone with an autoimmune illness how many whack treatments people will swear to you worked for them. :eyes:

[dorkulon]

73. I dont want to offend you but homeopathic remedies are literally nothing.

That is not to say that there are not natural remedies that have positive health benefits. But homeopathy specifically is completely worthless.

Homeopaths believe that the methodical dilution of a substance, beginning with a 10% or lower solution and working downwards, with shaking after each dilution, produces a therapeutically active "remedy", in contrast to therapeutically inert water. However, homeopathic remedies are usually diluted to the point where there are no molecules from the original solution left in a dose of the final remedy.

-- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeopathy#Medical_and_scientific_analysis

[Why Syzygy]

87. I know for a fact that homeopathy works.

I've been involved with it since 1992. I had been sick for six months, seen three doctors, battery of blood tests and exams. I was in intense pain and growing weaker by the day. All the doctors :shrug:
Homeopathy pulled me out of it. I was able to make a cross country trip, both ways, and pack a three bedroom house to move days after the treatment. I've seen it work in animals and other humans. It cured ex-H's chronic bursitis. He used to have to hang his arm off the bed, the pain was intense. After his remedy, he had a curing episode, up most of the night with pain. Then it went away never to return. I could go on.

No matter how much howling 'woo' and attempts to discredit are proffered, people who have USED it know it works!

Might as well save your breath.

eta: These days when medicines are prescribed for me, I need only a minimum dose. Some doctors complain that I'm not even taking a "therapeutic dosage". One nurse suggested they were somehow working "homeopathically" on me. Could be...

[noiretextatique]

94. works for me too

i have severe springtime allergies and most allergy medicines make me drowsy. i use homeopathic products and they work for me.

[uppityperson]

95. I am always amused at who writes "woo" the most. Typically it is pre-emptive attacks on scientific

posters. I see it several places in this topic. For instance "No matter how much howling 'woo' and attempts to discredit are proffered, people who have USED it know it works!"

I have been accused of calling posters "woo" and have very seldom said that term as insulting doesn't seem to accomplish much. Yes, there are scientific types who call alternative types "woos", but mostly it seems the alt types saying "no matter how much you call us woos".

Just an observation.

I subscribe a lot to Tincture of Time for relief.

[Why Syzygy]

97. Glad you are amused.

(not really). Wish I could say the same. :boring:

[knitter4democracy]

56. Funny, that's not what they taught STBX in med school.

They taught the biopsychosocial model of medicine and even had classes on alternative therapies. There are studies on the effectiveness of anything from acupuncture to various herbals in NEJM, JAMA, and even the Mayo and Cleveland Clinic journals (I don't deal with them anymore after he moved out, but I used to read them faithfully every week--interesting stuff in those medical journals). Acupuncture has been shown to help with pain better than most narcotics, and it was the only thing that worked on my vertigo last summer. Not the Michigan Ear Institute's specialist, that's for sure, let alone my ENT. Funny, that.

The reason doctors are dealing with the entire patient and looking at other therapies is because it works. There are those of us who can't take a pill or most pills, and yet our doctors want to help stop our suffering. Is that a bad thing?

[D23MIURG23]

103. I'm calling BS. What citations do you have that demonstrate the efficacy of acupuncture?

[Oregone]

63. "all believe that an underlying energy force governs health and vitality"

Firstly, whether they believe it or not is irrelevent to the efficiency of the natural remedies. There are different medical models throughought this entire globe, with some based entirely upon ignorance; this doesn't mean that some ingredients do not have scientific basis. If a primitive culture was to, with empirical evidence, discover an ingredient was effective at treating an ailment, but lacked the understanding as to why, it is likely they would explain such with "magic" (and this explanation would evolve with the culture). But by no means does a silly explanation undermine efficiency; the only process that would is a double-blind, scientific study, many of which often support (or refute) the efficiency of certain natural remedies.

The lack of a Shaman's microscope and pre-med knowledge doesn't discount *everything* they would recommend, perhaps just why they recommend it. Your "advanced" culture gives you no right to just automatically cast away what these "primitive" people believe in. Fortunately, you have science for that. But, you are also being quite biased in your judgement from the start.

That aside, some people use natural remedies only after they have been subjected to rigorous lab testing to prove their efficiency, and they do so with nothing but science to back them up. And some scientists work with natural compounds to derive patentable synthetic drugs. Just because something grows out of the ground, instead of a lab, doesn't mean its useless. Just because you use it, doesn't mean you believe in gibberish.


"Opponents of the use of anesthesia during labor and delivery taught that women were supposed to suffer during childbirth due to divine edict."

Not ALL opponents. I have read that it increases maternal fever and leads to higher rates of spinal taps in the infants. Further, some studies have showed less intact perineums associated with the use of epidurals.

You are making broad generalizations

[derby378]

70. I think you're reading too much into the OP

I'm not trying to distinguish between natural and synthetic. I'm trying to distinguish between what works and what does not work.

I think I see what you're getting at, though, and let me respond by pointing you to a 19th-centure homeopath named Constantin Hering, who happens to be one of the main reasons modern heart patients are able to save their lives with nitroglycerin. Hering learned that placing a drop of nitroglycerin on the tongue produces a severe migraine in a healthy subject, and, driven by the homeopathic concept of "like cures like," he sought to produce some nitroglycerin of his own in order to research it as a homeopathic treatment for headsches and migraines.

Hering required a lot of time and some help from a chemist for his search, but he finally obtained a vial containing a tiny amount of nitroglycerin. Hering would later remark: "There were scarcely twenty drops, but it held, besides, a world of expectation. Like a new-born son, wrapped in his glass swaddling-clothes, the child of pain was at last brought forth." The chemist was the first to taste the oil, and quickly developed a migraine similar to that experienced by nitroglycerin's discoverer and his assistants. That night, Hering delivered the vial to the northwest corner of Juliana Street and Vine Street in Philadelphia, where stood the home of his friend, Dr. Jeanes.

Jacob B. Jeanes was born on October 4, 1800, one of six siblings in a family of Hicksite Friends. His three brothers, Joseph, Joshua, and Samuel, would go on to establish a successful dry goods business in Philadelphia. As for Jacob, he entered the Medical Department of the University of Pennsylvania under the preceptorship of Joseph Parrish, graduating in 1823. He published his Homœopathic Practice of Medicine in 1838. In 1845, he served as President of the AIH.

According to Hering's own writings, Jeanes sampled a small amount of the oil one evening at Hering's residence; after laughing off his colleague's warnings, Jeanes placed the nitroglycerin in his mouth and started dictating his first symptoms to Hering coolly. Suddenly, Jeanes cried out, "Indeed, you are right, here it is! Oh, how it seizes me!" He clutched his head with both hands and started pacing the room in what must have been agonizing pain, describing his sensations as best as he was able while Hering jotted them down vigorously.

From these experiments came the use of nitroglycerin in homeopathy. Regular MDs, pressured by the AMA, blackballed Hering's research data for a long time until one doctor finally took a look at the notes and got the bright idea that nitroglycerin might not be an ideal treatment for migraines, but might be beneficial for certain cardiovascular ailments if given in the right dosages.

Which proves my point that we need more education and basic medical research - and that includes not allowing dogma or personal prejudice to determine what can and cannot be studied.

[noiretextatique]

93. my Naturopath agreed with my oncologist about Tamoxifen

both said it would lessen my risk of a recurrence of breast cancer. my Naturopath also told me to have my Vitamin D level checked, so i asked my oncologist to order the test. as it turns out, my Vitamin D level was very, very low, so now i take a supplement. if i hadn't seen the Naturopath, i might not have found out about a potentially serious vitamin deficiency.

reputable complimentary care practitioners don't dismiss conventional medicine. too bad the opposite isn't quite as true.

[Orrex]

98. "Complimentary medicine" that can actually be shown to work is called "medicine."

And reputable medical practitioners accept it as part of the body of treatments that work.

I suspect that a lot of complimentary care practitioners are reluctant to condemn mainstream medicine because, if they do, and if their client subsequently dies due to rejecting medicine--based on the allegedly informed opinion of the complimentary care practitioner, then the dead client's survivors will be inclined to sue the shit out of the practitioner.

But if an actual doctor speaks out against this or that "alternative" treatment, there's very little risk of repercussion because so much of it is either complete nonsense or of low priority; missing a few sessions with your reflexologist isn't likely to result in an aortic aneurysm, for instance.

[LostinVA]

104. Exactly -- I go to a DO, not an MD

And, they look often look at things in a "holistic/complimentary medicine" way. Not a "junk medicine" way. I also believe that natural remedies have their place, and that meditation can help improve your overall health because of stress levels, etc. But, this is all medicine.

If my DO ever advocated something NOT based in medical reality, I'd be out the door.

[Orrex]

109. If you don't start disagreeing with me once in a while, people will think we're the same person

That could be confusing for all kinds of reasons.

[noiretextatique]

119. my breast specialist is a DO

his tools of the trade are ultrasound, surgery and other conventional methods of diagnosis and treatment.

i live in california, so i was able to get a cannibis club card. there is a cannabis club in my town that offers free complimentary treatments: yoga, reiki, hypnosis, acupuncture. you can also consult with a naturopath and an herbalist.

when my younger sister was diagnosed with terminal breast cancer 4 years ago and the medical profession threw up its collective hands and gave up on her, i found a reiki master who lived in her city.

my sister died of cancer...there was nothing short of a miracle that would have saved her. but she told me that the reiki sessions eased her pain and gave her a sense of peace and calm.

i don't know if reiki is medicine or junk, i know that it gave my dying sister some peace and relief.

[BuddhaGirl]

122. I'm so sorry about your sister

Reiki definitely can help with pain...a dear friend of mine had reiki sessions during her cancer treatment and reported the same results your sister got. Reiki can be wonderful!

[noiretextatique]

123. i love reiki

i actually prefer it to hands on massage. thanks for your condolences :hug: you don't happen to be the DUer formerly known as buddhamama, do you?

[BuddhaGirl]

124. no, I'm not!

I remember her! :hi:

[noiretextatique]

118. my point is this: if i had not seen a naturopath

i wouldn't have found out my vitamin d deficiency. of course that is "medicine," but my medical doctor *apparently* wasn't as aware of the link between vitamin D and breast cancer as was my naturopath. the correction for this problem now is a vitamin d3 supplement. if i hadn't been tested, i might have to take something else. from that experience i've learned that it's good to get as much information from as many sources as possible.
some people are so closed to anything remotely alternative that they miss out on good information...like the kind that diagnosed my vitamin d deficiency. my post was a response to that mindset.

i don't know if reiki and acupuncture are "medicine" or not, and i don't really care. i do know that reiki and acupuncture helped me deal with the stress of being diagnosed with breast cancer, surgery and radiation.

btw, complimentary care is the term used my the medical profession and insurance companies.

[Orrex]

120. While I'm delighted that you were able to correct a deficiency, it's hardly conclusive

The link between vitamin D and breast cancer is as yet uncertain, and in any case the use of Tamoxifen hardly creates a neutral testing environment when trying to evaluate a vitamin's effect on cancer growth. Additionally, I'm not sure I understand the significance of the deficiency in this case. What was your oncologist supposed to say? "I'd like you to take Tamoxifen, which has a good track record in treating breast cancer, and I'd also like you to take these vitamin D supplements because there's preliminary evidence suggesting that there might be some kind of as-yet-inconclusive link between D deficiency and cancer growth," perhaps?

Your naturopath had nothing to lose by suggesting vitamin D, while your oncologist was focused on a proven treatment.

[noiretextatique]

121. my level when last checked was 11 which is a deficiency

which is why i need to take vitamin d supplements. that has nothing to do with tamoxifen or if my deficiency was a reason i developed breast cancer.
again, the point is this: if the deficiency wasn't a concern, then my oncologist and primary care doctor wouldn't be routinely ordering the vitamin d test NOW.

the point i am trying to make is that my complimentary care practitioner, who agreed that i should take tamoxifen, actually offered my something my conventional doctors didn't. if she hadn't suggested the testing, and if i hadn't asked my doctors to test me, i don't know that they would have thought it.


there is research that suggests a link between vitamin d deficiency and breast cancer, as well as other diseases. in any case, given my history, i will err on the side of caution.

[D23MIURG23]

102. In the words of the great Richard Dawkins:

Alternative medicine is only alternative because it hasn't been tested and peer reviewed. If its actually been shown to work then it stops being "alternative medicine" and just becomes medicine.

(I may be paraphrasing a bit - he was answering a question at a recent lecture at MSU)

[Orrex]

108. Dawkins totally stole that from what I wrote in reply #98

:hide:

[D23MIURG23]

110. sure did.

:hi:

[xchrom]

106. i can't remember the last time i had so much fun reading a thread. nt