On Parched Farms, Using Intuition to Find Water

[groovedaddy]

WATERFORD, Calif. — Phil Stine is not crazy, or possessed, or even that special, he says. He has no idea how he does what he does. From most accounts, he does it very well.

“Phil finds the water,” said Frank Assali, an almond farmer and convert. “No doubt about it.”

Mr. Stine, you see, is a “water witch,” one of a small band of believers for whom the ancient art of dowsing is alive and well.

Emphasis, of course, on well. Using nothing more than a Y-shaped willow stick, Mr. Stine has as his primary function determining where farmers should drill to slake their crops’ thirst, adding an element of the mystical to a business where the day-to-day can often be painfully plain.

Asked how he does it, Mr. Stine has a standard retort.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/09/us/09water.html?th&emc=th

[Sal Minella]

1. Previous thread on this here.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=115x173589

[Orrex]

2. The technical term for this practice is "nonsensical hucksterism"

But if it makes people feel better to give their money to a guy with a stick, who am I to stop them?

[TZ]

3. This belongs in science why?

Shouldn't this be posted in the alternative healing/astronomy group?
Not science. :eyes:

On edit: from the science sticky:
"Threads about topics that are not science are not welcome here. Please do not post threads about pseudoscience (astrology, homeopathy, crop circles, bigfoot, alien abductions, and the like"

[semillama]

4. It could also be posted in Skepticism, Science, and Pseudoscience

Since it deals with a pseudoscience and illustrates people's willingness to not question such a practice.

[YankeyMCC]

5. Bad enough it was in the E/E or rather

bad enough the magical thinking was supported in a forum where we should be fighting magical thinking forcefully due to the damage that kind of thinking has caused by way of neglect and supporting denier theirs on global climate crisis.

[Sal Minella]

6. Would you read that out loud for us once and explain what it says?

[TZ]

7. .

Easy, heres the translation: dowsing= magical thinking...something thats been a problem for the last EIGHT years..and has led to stuff like climate change deniers..its when you believe something without scientific proof even sometimes DESPITE scientific proof. (for instance dowsing has been thoroughly debunked scientifically multiple times)

[YankeyMCC]

8. Thank you turlensue

I guess sometimes I don't make myself clear to some people. You're translation is exactly spot on. :thumbsup:

[Orrex]

9. There you go with your dogmatic,Scientistic thinking again...

:eyes:

[groovedaddy]

11. Only as a thought provoking mechanism. Part of an "experiment," to observe responses.

I actually had an archeolologist friend do a demonstration on dowsing on his farm once. He provided the caveat that the method was not scientifically proven, but that many farmers relied upon it for sinking wells.
What has science proved about the power of belief, i.e. the placebo effect. The placebo effect is well documented but has not been "explained."
What effect does the observer have on the experiment?

[TZ]

12. The placebo effect while real

has to do with how brain controls the body...In this case where we are talking about an external element (where water is), the placebo effect is irrelevant.
There are SCIENTIFIC evidence for the appearance of dowsing...Including forgetting not including times when it doesn't work..Excellent observation skills of the environment knowing where underground water is often found or where water has been in the past ect ect....

[groovedaddy]

13. The scientific study of the placebo effect is the relevance - observed phenomenon

You said that the placebo effect was "real." And yet, not everyone who takes a placebo, even though they may believe it will help, gets better from the belief that they are being helped.
The truth is that the "placebo effect" is very poorly understood or explained. Some theorists say that the most important element is the Doctor-Patient relationship (The Physician being EXTERNAL to the Patient).
One of the more controversial aspects of quantum physics is that the act of "observation" has an effect at the sub-atomic level.
Farmers in a given area who need to find water know which dowsers have proven themselves (even if not scientifically) and will weed out those who claim to have the ability but have not produced positive results.
I read an article a few years back about archeologists using a psychic in their investigation of sites. The psychic would visit the sites, hold excavated objects, close his eyes and "see" whatever he would see. His "observations" fill in many of the blanks that the archeologists had trouble explaining. These scientists don't necessarily like to admit that this use this guy, but use him they do, for a fee. Clearly, what he is doing is far outside the realm of normal scientific method, but the scientists involved see fit to use him.
I'll scout around if see if I can find a web reference to this guy.

[YankeyMCC]

14. It isn't 'far outside' it is Not science

science is a methodology of study, experiment and verification not guess work and accepting what someone claims to have seen via supernatural abilities when it fits your needs (wishful) thinking and not testing and verifying the procedure against the times it fails and with other supporting evidence and close examination.

[groovedaddy]

15. Just a different way of saying the same thing...I'm not saying it is the

scientific method.
Dreaming isn't a scientific method either, but solutions to vexing problems, can come during dreams.
Einstein and others have attested to this.
Using the scientific method, an archeologist may say: "If I dig here, I will find nothing." His or her intuition(or someone elses) may say: "Dig anyway." If you dig and find something, do you discount it because logical reasoning did not lead you to it? I think not.
Now, you may say, well, you'd be wasting a tremendous amount of time if you relied solely on intuition (and no good scientist would rely on it solely). But good scientists would not call upon someone time and again, unless they actually delivered the goods. Trial and error allows for numerous attempts before arriving at a solution. Someone operating outside the realm of logic and reasoning will not be given the same, as any good scientist knows they are risking their credibility if they call upon someone like this and gain nothing from it.

[YankeyMCC]

16. But then to belive that somehow your intituition is magical

or a logical provable, repeatable source of knowledge is magical thinking. I do not discount the impetus provided by imagination and creative guessing but it is not science at all and to claim that this sort of method is equivalent in any way to science is a fallacy, wishful thinking usually.

Dowsing has been shown to be false, it is not a repeatable, verifiable process.

[groovedaddy]

17. I never made that claim. Where does intuition get translated as or equated with

magical thinking?
Scientists have observed the "placebo effect" but, as of yet, can't EXPLAIN IT through the scientific method. Does that make it "magical thinking?" No.
And no, dowsing is certainly not scientific, just as the "intuitive" who tells the archeologist to "dig here" is not.
Are there other ways of "knowing" outside of logic and reasoning? Yes. But that doesn't mean we should abandon logic and reasoning. To lump these "other ways" into the category of "magical thinking," is simply a method used to discount. Again, if the intuitive says "dig" and the archeologist finds, they will probably call upon the intuitive in the future.

[YankeyMCC]

18. Are there other ways of "knowing" outside of logic and reasoning?

No

Not "knowing" taking a guess and finding something might add to your evidence fortuitously but it is not 'knowing'

Intuition is not magical thinking, believing that intuition is a reliable means of accomplishing something IS magical thinking. Reliving that your (or someone else's) intuition has some unmeasurable ability to 'know' something that otherwise can not be discovered or verified is Magical thinking.

[groovedaddy]

19. There was a study done back in the early 90s of corporate ceos

They were asked how they arrived at decisions. The great majority of them said they relied upon "gut instinct." Admittedly, they may already (or, at least should) "know" alot and there may be a relationship between what they know and what they deem to be "gut instinct." I also admit that using ceo's decision making capacity in the current climate may be a bit suspect.
Again, the Archeologist is not going to entirely rely upon an intuitive. But there is a reason certain of them are called upon time and again: results. I am sure the archeologists who have successfully used these intuitives would say: "Call it whatever you want. If it works, I'm using it." It's all about the results.

[Nihil]

10. Bad headline - "intuition" indeed.

Like many cases of science reporting bemoaned here, the journalist has
gone for what he/she believes is a more catchy slant on the subject
rather than reporting the phenomena and its benefits to the farmers
involved.

"intuition"
"small band of believers"
"adding an element of the mystical"

:eyes: