What's with Quackwatch and other entities...?

[bliss_eternal]

that feel the need to poke holes in alternative therapies and options of healing and health outside of the western medical model?

I've been doing a lot of reading on nutritional therapy. I've found more helpful information on this outside of the traditional guidelines of the ADA (American Dietetic Association). Lots of helpful information on organic foods, vitamin supplements, etc.

Then I happened upon Quackwatch which is completely dismissive of any information from nutritional counselors that don't fall under the realm of Dietitians (RD's-Registered Dietitians or DT's-Dietetic technicians), which of course work within the traditional structure of western medicine, with doctors, etc.

Anyone got any theories on this? Do you find this as infuriating and frustrating as I do?

:grr: :crazy:

[Bluestar]

1. I recently ran across them when I looked up "channeling"

I thought they were like those fundie de-bunking groups who are always attacking anything to do with new age thought. I didn't know they were after alternative therapies/nutritional treatment as well. Why am I not surprised? Most of their de-bunking deserves a fair amount of de-bunking from some objective source. They lie and obfuscate everything with their so-called logic. Try to ignore them--worrying about them gives them energy. Cheers!!

[bliss_eternal]

2. Good point, Bluestar--

Thanks for your feedback!

Sorry you ran across this wet blanket when looking up channeling. He's apparently an 'equal opportunity' debunker. LOL!

[DemExpat]

3. I too have learned to completely ignore them

for anything they say will do nothing to change all of our positive and valid experiences with other ideas and theories of nutrition, supplementation, and complementary health care.

I took a University course this year (working for my degree in Human Geography) delving into the scientific view of the world/medicine/healing and "other" views, and came to the conclusion that science as a whole, while giving us many wonderful and real gifts, has saddled humanity with another whole set of problems.

Scientific medicine is great for emergency medicine and some diseases, but totally lacking with many, more chronic health problems, and that traditional and complementary medicines are filling a huge gap in the wants and needs of a growing number of people for less invasive, less side effects treatments, and more holisitic and gentle approaches.

Critical studies and articles on all forms of medicine enjoy my attention, but Quackwatch is immediately deleted if it crosses my screen. Too hysterically dismissive of any-and everything "unscientific", too arrogant, and way too fundamentalist thinking for me.

DemEx

[Desertrose]

6. Well said, Dem Ex

couldn't agree more.:evilgrin:

:hi::hug::loveya:
DR

[bliss_eternal]

10. I agree--

very well said! :hi:

Always a pleasure to read your posts!

[hvn_nbr_2]

11. Human Geography

working for my degree in Human Geography

What exactly is Human Geography? Sounds to me like a subset of geography focussing on human activities and impacts, as opposed to naturally occurring features, resources, ecosystems, etc. But that's really just a guess.

[DemExpat]

13. Excellent guess it is, too, hvn....

it looks at culture, religion, economics, sociology, geography, etc., while focussing on modern day forces of globalization and how this influences our lives, our world.
:hi:

DemEx

[hvn_nbr_2]

4. Nattering knee-jerks of negativity? n/t

[bliss_eternal]

9. LOL!

:hi:

[Desertrose]

5. A group of *rational* thinkers with a VERY narrow worldview

who feel the overwhelming need to:
1) tell others they are fools for *believing* anything that they do not give their seal of approval to.

2) love to group together to pat each other on the back for being so clever and smart and much more *rational* than those mentioned in #1.

3) and who always use *science*, *raional thinking* and the *scientific method* as the final determinator of *truth*.


I find them a limited,sad yet incredibly arrogant bunch. My advice....ignore them.

DR

[bliss_eternal]

8. You put that so well, Desertrose!

The first time I encountered this site was when I was researching another alternative therapy. I couldn't believe someone was committing so much time and energy to 'debunk' and 'over analyze' others' experiences.

Thank you for your advice and wise words--enjoyed reading, as always! :hi:

[bloom]

7. the Quackwatch Quackpots:

Failed MD Stephen Barrett

What kind of man would drop out of the medical profession and dedicate his life to STOPPING advancement in the health sciences?

http://www.quackpotwatch.org/quackpots/quackpots/barrett.htm



Also:

Quackwatch Founder Stephen Barrett Loses Major Defamation Case in his own Hometown

In a stunning development, Lehigh Valley Pennsylvania Judge J. Brian Johnson on Thursday, October 13, 2005, tossed out nationally known self-proclaimed "consumer medical advocate" Stephen Barrett’s defamation lawsuit just minutes before it was going to be considered by a local jury.

The lawsuit, filed in August 2002, against also nationally known Pennsylvania chiropractor, lecturer, researcher, and publisher, Dr. Tedd Koren, sought unspecified damages against Koren and his company, Koren Publications, Inc. for statements that he wrote in his newsletter in 2001 about Barrett. Barrett filed the lawsuit because of Koren’s publication that Barrett was "de-licensed" and "in trouble because of a $10 million lawsuit" and because Barrett was called a "Quackpot." In his defense, Koren contended that the statements were true and not defamatory and that he had a First Amendment right to write them in his newsletter....

At trial, under a heated cross-examination by Negrete, Barrett conceded that he was not a Medical Board Certified psychiatrist because he had failed the certification exam. This was a major revelation since Barrett had provided supposed "expert testimony" as a psychiatrist and had testified in numerous court cases. Barrett also had said that he was a "legal expert" even though he had no formal legal training.

This was not the first time that Negrete was a trial attorney in a Barrett case. He also represented anti-fluoridation advocate Darlene Sherrell in a federal lawsuit filed in Eugene, Oregon by Barrett. Barrett also lost in trial of that case. Negrete also represented Robert King of King Bio in a case filed by an organization led by Barrett, which was lost by Barrett’s organization. Barrett has also filed a lawsuit against Negrete and his client Dr. Hulda Clark, which is now pending and awaiting trial in San Diego, California federal court.

After the Koren trial, Negrete stated: "The de-bunker has been de-bunked. I am
pleased and satisfied with this outcome for Dr. Koren and am proud that Dr. Koren did not succumb to the pressures of the intimidation of Barrett’s legal wrangling. Not everyone can stand up to someone as well known as Barrett."

http://www.chiro.org/LINKS/FULL/Quackwatch_Founder_Loses_Defamation_Case.shtml

[bliss_eternal]

12. I can't believe this guy!

Putting others through so much grief, and he's been 'challenged' in the past...

The nerve.

Thanks so much for this information and link bloom! Very informative!

[InvisibleTouch]

14. Nothing but disdain for Quackwatch.

While there truly is a lot of bunk out there, and a lot of charlatains, and a lot of things that deserve de-bunking, the majority of what Quackwatch attacks is not bunk by any means - they're merely other valid treatment options which might in many cases work better, which would at the very least empower people to take their health into their own hands, and that would remove money from the pockets of conventional medicine and pharmaceutical companies. I suspect that last point is the real drive behind this site.

Several years ago a fairly young co-worker of mine was diagnosed with cancer. I've lost several family members to the disease, and I've done a good bit of thinking about what I would do in that situation, and a good bit of reading on the pros and cons of various treatments - conventional and alternative. I gave my friend numerous references for what he might try. He refused every option except chemotherapy, citing Quackwatch among other "skeptical" sources, and basically blew off everything I suggested. He was dead within a year.

[bliss_eternal]

15. Oh no--I'm so sorry

about your co-worker!! :hug:

How awful that he wasn't willing to even supplement his treatment with some of the options you offered him.

I've talked at length about this with friends and my husband. My husband in turn discussed it with his coworkers. They had a very interesting conversation. He told me they got into a discussion of smallpox and how the cure for that, was the beginning of the end of cures in America.

The pharmaceutical industry would go broke with actual cures. If more people just THOUGHT about THAT. Really thought, and considered what that means... a lot less people would take what their doctors tell them as the gospel truth. They may be more open to considering some of the options Quackwatch is so eager to dispel as 'quackery.'

The pharmaceutical industry is a company just like Sears, Coke or Target--they have commercial ads on televsion just like the other companies do. So they can suggest that people don't feel as 'good as they could.' That if they just take this 'magic pill' they'll feel better, lose weight, make more money, be more beautiful, etc., etc.

It's all such Bull...

[crikkett]

16. Theory: if western medicine is a modern priesthood

then anything that challenges the authority or profitability of the priesthood is quackery and must be stopped.

Just ask your doctor.

[nuxvomica]

17. Here's an example of how they "debunk" alternative medicine

http://www.homeowatch.org/articles/jaroff.html

The page is an article by Leon Jaroff that describes an attempt by a Belgium "skeptics" group to show how worthless homeopathic remedies are by consuming remedies derived from poisons and not expiring as a result:

Even more ominous, the solutions were labeled “30C.” This meant that one part of the original substance had been diluted in 100 parts of water or alcohol, shaken, and then diluted again at a ratio of 100 to one, a process that was repeated 30 times. According to homeopaths, each time a solution is shaken, the properties of the original substance are miraculously transferred to the water or alcohol solvent, and each cycle enhances or “dynamizes” the :properties of the solution. Shouldn’t that make the original poison even more potent? Apparently not. All of the 23 volunteers survived, but some who came by car had to wait before returning home because the alcohol in their homeopathic solutions had made them too dizzy to drive.

If you are familiar with homeopathy, you know that the remedies are not considered even remotely as toxic as the original substance. In fact, that is why Hahnemann diluted medicines to begin with. So this dog-and-pony show was nothing more than a "straw man" that involved as much deceit as any travelling medicine show. The "skeptics" group was counting on the ignorance of their audience. A real journalistic would've been careful to explain this obvious flaw in the demonstration yet Jaroff never mentions it.

[hvn_nbr_2]

18. They didn't even bother to understand what homeopathy is.

They made up their own version of their own interpretation of their own distortion of homeopathy and debunked it.

Here are a couple other examples of how the medical establishment discredits alternative treatments by jimmying "studies":

People have been using St. Johns wort for mild to moderate depression for years; in Europe it's an accepted treatment. However, virtually everybody agrees that it isn't good for severe depression. So, when the U.S. medical establishment decided to do a clinical study to test St. Johns wort for depression--you guessed it, they tested it ONLY on people with severe depression. Of course, they got the results they wanted, that it didn't work, and all the media dutifully blared big headlines saying "St. Johns wort worthless for depression."

Most herbalists agree that the species of echinacea that is good for the immune system is echinacea angustifolia and that echinacea purpurea doesn't do much, if anything. So when the medical establishment decided to test whether echinacea is good for colds, they tested ONLY echinacea purpurea. Result: dutiful banner headlines "Echinacea worthless for treating colds."

[nuxvomica]

21. So herbology suffers from these same tactics as well

That bait and switch in the echinicea study seems almost intentional. ;-)

[hvn_nbr_2]

22. Actually there can be some justification for that one.

Echinacea purpurea is the one most commonly used in supplements, apparently because it's cheaper and more plentiful although I don't know for sure that's the reason. So you could justify it from the point of view of determining if people are wasting their money on what most people buy. From the point of view of advancing scientific knowledge, they got evidence for one half of the story that everyone (knowledgeable) already knows.

[DemExpat]

19. What do you think of this?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=228x16261

with article on the test he refers to with Arnica, and the rebuttal from the Resesarch Council for Complementary Medicine at the end of this....
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/2710107.stm


DemEx

[nuxvomica]

20. Typical "debunking"

Arnica is not even the first remedy of choice, at least in my mind, for the condition tested. This reminds me of a study using arnica for acute arthritis pain even though rhus tox is the most preferred remedy for that condition. Regardless, as I'm sure you know, the practice of classical homeopathy is more complex than that and a definitive study would require far more careful diagnosis and certainly more than one remedy for different individuals with the same condition. Dr. Richardson's analysis in the second link appears correct both medically and logically: "The results suggest that people undergoing carpal tunnel surgery are not helped by arnica. But this does not mean that arnica is of no help with other conditions."
I had planned to post on the thread myself this evening but it was locked. These discussions always seem to devolve to the same pointless arguments, which is unfortunate.

[DemExpat]

23. Yes, I do understand the differences and complexities of testing

individualized Homeopathic treatment, but I just find it strange that a professor of complementary medicine in the UK would be so "hotheaded" and careless about his methods - but of course he blames it on not having the funds. He sounds like a skeptic in sheep clothing to me! :D...

I have read and heard many opinions on CAM from a skeptical pov which didn't dismiss it all as rubbish and which are therefore interesting and valuable.

I finished a new course in Complementary medicine in my Universtiy program (emphasis on sociological and historical aspects) last month, and while presenting the whole picture of science versus alternative ways of thinking/experiencing, it clearly gave me a good background analysis for my years of positive support from this Homeopathy, also considering the importance of placebo and the care and trust built up with the practitioner in what they call a "therapeutic relationship".....45-60 minute appointments! But my animals also have received great and dramatic relief from Homeopathy at times.

I went to my new replacement GP doctor (for my old one just retired :-( ) in a super delux modern new GP group practice here, and was appalled at how impersonal it all felt to me, and the rushed few minutes alloted for the appointment felt degrading and uninterested, even though the doctor was "nice". I am looking for an "old fashioned" one again, one with some Holistic training and empathy for CAM, like my old GP had, but there are not many here.

:hi:

DemEx