Interesting story in the JonBenet case......

[GardeningGal]

What do you guys think? Picture is at link....


DENVER -- Psychic Dorothy Allison believed she knew what JonBenet's killer looked like and provided a sketch to the Ramsey family, based on her visions.

The Ramsey family Web site published the sketch, asking the public, "Have you seen this man? This man may have been in the Boulder area in December 1996."

The sketch was also given to Boulder police, who continued to insist that nobody outside the family was likely involved in the crime.

Comparing the sketch side-by-side with that of a picture of suspect John Karr appears to show remarkable resemblance.


http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/9694322/detail.html

[I Have A Dream]

1. Yes, that is amazingly accurate. Of course, that won't...

make any difference to skeptics who will just say that it was a coincidence. :eyes:

[Behind the Aegis]

3. I thought it looked like him too.

Of course the nay-sayers will deny anything other than the sex and ethnicity were correct, but I know plenty of skinny, white men, being one myself, and that picture doesn't look like me or anyone I know. I'd say it is pretty amazing to have a sketch look that similar and not have the subject sitting right in front of you. Hell, I have seen courtroom drawings of people that didn't look like the person, and the artist had a live subject!

Personally, chalk one up for "us." It is just too bad that this didn't solve this tragic case years ago and her mother had to die under a cloud of suspicion and never knowing the identity of her child's killer.

[Love Bug]

9. The gang of usual DU skeptics is already doing that over in GD

but that's to be expected by them. Whatever.

I think there are definitely similarities but I kinda doubt this guy's story. Something just doesn't track here, IMO. Hopefully the Boulder police can redeem themselves for so badly botching this investigation by getting to the truth of this.

I have no opinion regarding who I think did it because all we really know about this case is what has been fed to us by the media, and we all know how accurate and fair they are, right? :sarcasm:

I think it was Will Rogers who said "All I know is what I read in the newspapers."

[Cleita]

2. Shivers up and down my spine.

The similarities are there. I hope that they get the answers to this and finally put the whole sordid affair to rest. I hope Patsy Ramsey can rest in peace and that her brother can go on to normal life. I hope her father can too, although for him it's going to be so much harder.

There was so much blame the victims in this case because of inept police work from the very beginning. The residents of Denver should demand an inquiry and investigation of their law enforcement.

[GardeningGal]

5. It's actually Boulder jurisdiction

And I think that's how they got the new DA in 2000. Think they got a new police chief also - maybe someone else remembers as I don't live in Boulder, I live in Denver. It was a botched investigation from the beginning.

[Cleita]

8. Well, whoever's jurisdiction. I'm glad that they are attempting

to do something. I have my druthers about our law enforcement in my rather underpopulated county. They can't seem to deal with things that could get out of hand.

[BluePatriot]

4. I was going to post this

Such a good resemblance! How eerie...

[marions ghost]

6. the drawing has the same expression...

not only similar features. That's hard to do if you have never seen the person. Most police sketches don't have that much expression in them.

She really caught that haunted look about the eyes. If this guy is not the killer, he still looks a little spooky.

[rumpel]

7. While I do not follow this case much at this time

I saw a clip of his "conference" when still in Thailand.

Seeing him and hearing him just utter a few words - I don't know, something is not right. He appears very sensitive and gentle - almost feminine - just my first impression.

:shrug:

[mother earth]

10. What is not right perhaps may be the motive that caused him

to confess...I do believe it all makes sense. I think his motivation to confess is purely selfish, as I heard he was already in a Thailand prison. I'd be willing to bet he'll be subjected to far less harsh conditions here. I feel he is the perpetrator & the info he provides will certainly confirm guilt or not. I'd be willing to bet they had the info they need to confirm through his letters to Mrs. Ramsey.

[mother earth]

11. I believe the drawing is about as close as an artist can get.

It couldn't be better had he posed.

[rumpel]

14. I have to see more of him to get a sense

of what it is that I sense -

He could very well be the perpetrator - but somehow it feels to me...like he was not alone...

[Cleita]

12. So here's the first psychic bashing thread about this.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1929818

I swear, it shouldn't have been even introduced into GD, but I guess I should be used to it. Between the hispanic bashing threads and religion bashing threads, it's no surprise we have this now.

[GardeningGal]

13. Agreed. That's why I didn't post it there. n/t

[NJCher]

15. about Dorothy, the sketch, and is he the killer?

Interesting that this should come up because in the last few days, I have been thinking a good deal about Dorothy Allison. Now I know why.

I was toying with the idea of writing a book or extensive article about Dorothy (yeah, like I have time for that). I always wanted to meet her. I lived in the next town over from her and even tried to meet up with her when she was alive but didn't have any success in doing so. She wasn't listed in the phone book and even the Nutley police didn't know how to reach her, or so they said.

I recall when this picture came out and I agree there is an uncanny resemblence. I do believe, though, that Dorothy could have picked up on him as a false confesser and not necessarily as the murderer.

At the time this drawing came out, a lot of people also thought it looked like John Ramsey. Look at the hairline--much more like JR than Kerr.

I don't think he is the murderer for the following reasons:

a) he wasn't even in Boulder the night of the murder and his ex-wife says he was with her, celebrating the holiday

b) he said he drugged her and the autopsy said there were no drugs in her system

c) a garrotte was used to kill her, but he said it was an accident. Huh? I could understand that if the garrotte was on him (sick, yes) but not her.

d) he said he picked her up from school--but there was no school over the holidays.

Rumpel, I noted that almost feminine way he moves, too. There was something very submissive about him--almost like he was into getting frog marched out of there. Mother earth probably nailed it, though: what a great way to get out of a Thai prison. Makes a lot of sense to me.

Soon we shall see. Will anyone here be surprised if our news media has been played once again for the fool?




Cher

[rumpel]

17. You know, what also disturbs me

now I did watch some of the reports on Tv, this evening.

I think, what I saw: it is the fear, this man has. He is trying his very best to look sincere and tries to look the asking reporters in the eyes to make it look convincing. But it is certainly not what the pundits say - false confessions for his 5 minutes of fame. This guy is not "girly" by choice. He may have problems but he is not crazy.

Trying to tell my impressions about this whole thing to my mom, I realized - maybe it has something to do with the boys that were abducted to perform for the politicians in the 80's - remember the Gannon background/Gonzo journalism and rumors?

I don't know. Something is terribly amiss - what I do know is, he is scarred, and trying to hide it and it has nothing to do with admitting to a terrible crime of killing a child and it's consequences - he is more scared of being found out - was he there? maybe..
but this guy is very fragile - his claim of an accident? - well, the crime scene does not indicate it was an accident- it was brutal as I recall.

Yes, the psychic lady may have seen this media craze, too, and she would still have been right and dead on. I wish she was still with us -

I also felt some financial reward was promised - I don't know for what and from whom, as he would be in prison-for his estranged kids perhaps?
Now I hear reports, the whole arrest is based on confession. It seems in this particular turn of events, someone else is behind it all, whatever - whoever he/she they is/are - it is far more disgusting than even a pedophile could ever be.

With the Peterson case, and others, I did not have this immediate strange feeling...something is just not right...

[cassiepriam]

19. Rumpel. I have exactly the same thoughts and feelings.

Something does not add up here. And after the TV interview. I was certain. Nothing makes any sense to me.

He is very ill I think. Look how gaunt he is. HIV perhaps?
If he has been involved in the Thailand child prostitution trade anything is possible.

(It is possible that he was much healthier and stronger at the time of the crime.)

And he is not coming across as someone attracted to girls, young or old.

And I did not buy what he said. He did not sound convincing to me at all. Something else is going on. I did not pick up fear exactly, but some sort of hesitation. Something. I am wondering if he is psychotic?

But at the same time there has been printed stories that he revealed things only the killer could know.

Could he have been an accomplice to someone in the Ramsey family. Could there be a Ramsey male into pornography??

What are you picking up Rummpel?

[cassiepriam]

20. Did anyone notice the red marks around his neck?

I can't get a close up pic of it, but may be auto erotic asphyxiation. Common practice with hard core pornography viewers.

[rumpel]

21. Cassie, my first impression is usually the most accurate

when I start thinking too much - it gets more and more muddled

I don't even know, is the family politically connected? All I know is they are wealthy -
but somehow it feels like an opportunistic synchrony of mutual benefit - and I felt that he is a plant -

I know too little about psychosis but he sure seems to have a troubled mind - but one that is being exploited and abused -
to me, his eyes and mannerisms during that conference - looked like a child that is desperately trying to seek the approval and avoid punishment - total submission - training

Maybe some other impression will come -

[cassiepriam]

28. Some one raised a good point. The "confession" a way to get out

of the Thai prison system?

[rumpel]

47. I heard that, yes.

that would really be kind of being between a rock and a hard place, though.

I also heard that father Ramsey is denying he ever saw him at his house, even though Kerr apparently said he was at Ramsey's with his brother. I think the brother also denied that.

[cassiepriam]

49. The credibility of this suspect is shaky at this point..

Yes other people stepping forward and denying Karr's claims.

[SheilaT]

16. Well I see practically no

resemblance between the sketch and Karr. For one thing, the guy in the sketch looks to be in his fifties, not at all young. And the chin isn't remotely the same. Other than that, they both have two eyes arranged horizontally, a mouth and a nose, so I guess they look alike.

[BlueIris]

18. I would have to think long and hard about this development before I'd

believe that anyone other than the Ramseys themselves were responsible.

Hopefully I will have time to do that soon as I've had an interest in this case, especially from an astrological/metaphysical perspective, for a long time.

[NJCher]

22. Me too, BlueIris

I have followed this case from the very beginning. I read several books about it. I even participated in an armchair detective group that researched the case. I think it is the ultimate mystery.

Just for the record, I think the parents did it. Maybe it was just Patsy or maybe it was just John--but at some point they had to put their heads together to save what they had.

Anyway, I wanted to add this to my remarks above, about Karr's body language. I saw an interpersonal communication expert on TV today and he said the body language Karr was projecting conveyed he was enjoying the attention and the position he was in.




Cher

[saracat]

23. Looks nothing like him Sketch has a very pronounced v shaped jaw

Karr has a very square jaw. Fake news. Sorry.

[merci_me]

24. The more I hear, the more my mind wanders

I'm really uneasy with the journalism professor.

Another thing that I've been thinking about is "snuff films". Could it be that an intruder did kill JonBenet and taped it and it was put out for some pedophiles to view at some point. Then in Karr's delusional mind, he said he "was there".

I've also wondered if he may have been so into his fantasy world, that he acted out his own re-creation of the murder with another little girl. One he did drive home from school and then in acting out the re-creation, he did kill, accidently, if you can call it an accident.

But then again, there is the inscription in a high school yearbook, that they are pointing out the STBC connection. I keep hearing the e-mails he was sending were very long as was the "ransom letter". I've wondered, was the ransom letter written during the time the Ramsey's were out for the evening? And it did indicate a kidnapping, but once it became a murder, the note was already written.

Geez

[hippiechick]

25. ... but I thought the ransom note pointed toward Patsy ...

... because the amount demanded was an odd dollar figure, and was exactly Mr Ramsey's year end bonus or 401k balance or something only an insider would know ... also I recall hearing somewhere in the way back machine that the handwriting was very similar to hers.

I can't get this feeling out of my gut that Karr is connected to Patsy Ramsey in some way. A distant relative maybe? :shrug:

[merci_me]

26. Yeah, the $118K is a sticking point

But then, I have a business that use to cause me to read the local Business Journal each week. Reading what the year end bonuses were at some local companies, was no secret.

But then again, that brings me to the "someone else" who could have been a family friend (who was told or heard it through the grapevine), who knew the house and was there before they got home, leisurely writing a ransom note, for what may have been a planned kidnapping.

I was clueless, until Karr came into the picture. Then I focused there. However, once I heard about the Ramsey family friend, who was pretty tight with the police, for his own book(s) and documentary and then four years of "working" with a psycho, now I have a very uneasy feeling about the journalism professor, who just got lucky when he was pointed toward an obsessed Ramsey stalker and then could have planted some clues with Karr. I'd love to see the e-mails FROM the professor and the responses from Karr, not just the ones I've seen from Karr. I understand it was four years and stacks of them.

Right now, I'm wide open.

[cassiepriam]

31. Yes I am uneasy about the journalism professor as well. nt

[rumpel]

48. ditto

[cassiepriam]

29. I keep getting some sort of connection as well to either Patsy

or her husband.

Could it be a child porno connection somehow?
Could someone in the family have been selling JB's pics?

[cassiepriam]

30. The other odd thing was Patsy's clothing.

A reputed clothes horse, she was wearing the same outfit in
the morning when the police were called on the day of the disappearance that she has worn the evening before for a party. And they were getting ready to leave town. Just doesn't make sense.

She made up some excuse for this, but some of her friends
indicated that this was totally out of character for Patsy.

And the fact that Patsy and her husband refused lie detector tests, both
lawyered up right away with separate attorneys. Seemed odd.

[merci_me]

32. The clothing doesn't bother me

After doing the whole Christmas eve/Christmas day thing, she may have come home exhausted and tossed her clothes on a chair (I would). Then if she went down to the kitchen at 5AM in her nightgown or big t-shirt, found the note and made a frantic 911 call, she might have gone back upstairs and grabbed the first thing she saw. I've done that plenty of times, when the doorbell rings and I'm not dressed.

But, since she always looked so put together, I be curious, was she wearing fresh make-up and was her hair in place.

[cassiepriam]

35. But I think she told police she came down at 5am fully dressed

in the clothes from the night before. This struck many as odd.
Especially some of her friends who knew her well.

Patsy was an ex beauty queen and from an early age her mother drilled into her the importance of her appearance at all times. By all reports Patsy never ever
looked unkempt. And if she had been panicked I still think she might have gone to her default setting and reached for something clean. That would ground her.
It would be done automatically.

There was just something odd about Patsy in all of this.

[merci_me]

39. I'd think maybe she laid down and fell asleep

fully dressed. Remember, she was on maintenance chemo and just been through the holidays, exhausting in itself.

I really don't think Patsy had anything to do with the actual murder, but she is guilty as hell, of setting her daughter up to be the object of any sick pedophile with a camera, who stalk the pageants or download the photos.

She didn't seem to believe her little girl was pretty enough to not have to learn to strut in adult costumes and high heels, wear full make up, dye her naturally brown hair blond and flirt with the cameras. I think the taint of that, makes it easy for a lot of women to want to convict her.

For that reason, no matter what, to me she will always be an accessory to her daughter's murder.

[cassiepriam]

41. It is possible, but as I recall that was not her statement to the police.

That would have made sense if she had explained it that way, I agree.
But if that was the case why didn't she just say so?
Perhaps she did change the statement later to reflect the falling
asleep with her clothes on explanation. But somehow she doesn't strike me as the type to sleep in her clothes. But as you say, with chemo etc who knows.

Yes, you have to wonder about a mother who would put her 6 yr old child
thru all of the beauty pageant stuff.

And if the Ramseys are innocent they sure seemed to go out of their way to look
guilty. Refusing to cooperate with the police, more concerned about protecting themselves then finding the murderer of their child. All very odd at the time I thought.

[mother earth]

33. You are wrong about the lie detectors, they did take them and

passed completely. So many people have forgotten facts from the well publicized case, but they did pass the lie detector test, which BTW can easily show people are lying when they are telling the truth. These can be manipulated if someone "knows" how to believe their lies, I'm guessing, & can be affected by someone being nervous. So it's something a lawyer will always advise someone to avoid, guilt or innocence aside.

[mother earth]

34. The DNA found at the scene did not match with family DNA.

Also a fact that many forget. Somebody's DNA was under that child's fingernails and underwear. In my mind this very definitely excludes her family, and will be the clincher whether Karr is really the perpetrator or not.

[cassiepriam]

38. That still does not rule out that the Ramseys were involved somehow?

[cassiepriam]

36. They only much later hired their own lie detector expert and took them?

I agree my memory is fuzzy. But I distinctly remember
at the time that the Ramseys did not cooperate with the police.
By the time they took the LD they could have been coached on how to
pass them. And it was someone they hired.

And yes lie detectors are not reliable. But many attorneys in the
area where I live ask their clients to take them. And also you can be
quilty and look innocent on a LD test.

[cassiepriam]

37. PS I have no agenda about quilt or innocence of the Ramseys.

Things just need to make sense to me.
And their statements didn't fit together.

[mother earth]

43. I understand, Cassie, I just happen to believe the parents were not

involved. If I were in their position, I would've thought about the lie detector thing too and probably would've done just what they did, hire my own (if they did indeed do that). If you have ever had ANY experience with the law, you know they can act questionably at times. I would have been very defensive. They must have realized they were the object of speculation, as the immediate family always is.

I too had forgotten much of what we were told thru those tabloid stories, since nobody really ever investigated past the Ramseys, unfortnately it was all about their guilt. How can one overlook an outside person when the DNA did not match the family? I just really feel that people looked at the child beauty pageant stuff with their own ideas of what that translates to them. I don't agree with parading your child around with makeup and clothing geared to make them look much older & provocative, but it's my understanding this is very popular esp. in the South, and Patsy was a pageant girl herself, I believe she competed for the Miss USA title?

Anyway, the DNA holds the answer. Someone I work with also thinks they were into some kind of kinky thing with child pics, but I think evidence of that would've shown up by now. Everyone was looking to make a dollar off of this, so you think those that trade in that "business" have any special form of ethics? I just think it is what it is, about competition to prepare little girls for going on to compete as adults in pageantry. I know someone who used to pay thousands of dollars for her son to "model" clothing for local merchants and paid for "modeling" rep/instruction. I think it's all just a big scam that plays on parental pride & pocketbooks, but some do "buy" into it, even when they must know on some level they are being taken for a ride.

I understand everyones' feelings about Karr, he is crazy creepy, but crazy creepy just might "fit" the perpetrator. What's more interesting is that they actually may have extradited someone WITHOUT compelling evidence to warrant that action. That is beyond crazy. I hope we are proven wrong & they know something that unquestionably proved his guilt BEFORE the decision to bring him back here was made & the resulting onslaught of media frenzy.

[cassiepriam]

44. I hear you.

I just thought it strange that they refused to speak to the police after the first day. They refused to cooperate in any way. It was just odd. But the police were quite incompetent from day one, so maybe the Ramseys actions were justified, but it did not help public perception of them.

I cannot make out heads or tails of what is going on now. Homeland Security was front and center with Karr, they and the police let a major suspect in a huge case give a press conference. None of his statements and stated history fit together very well.
His confession has major holes in it. Then the journalism professor involved in all of this, again every thing has such an odd quality to it.

(I am not sure what the tabloids stated, I don't usually read them. I did read some of the well researched books on the Ramsey case. What were the tabloids saying? Who do they think did it? At this point their guess is as good as anyone else's!)

And yes Patsy was a beauty queen herself, I think had a state title. So she was familiar with the drill. And I think it is more a southern thing. I wonder if she was dressed up in such a provocative fashion as a child by her mother as well.

[marions ghost]

45. your hunch is in line with mine, mother earth

I may have to eat my hat yet, but I have always maintained that the Ramseys are likely innocent.

I just don't think the evidence is there to convict them. Their defensiveness was natural to me, considering the intensity of the media spotlight and the obvious attempt to cover up a bungled case, a huge embarrassment to local law enforcement. If it can be proven that the parents are innocent, it will have been one of the biggest witch-hunt 'trials by media' in US history. If they are innocent (which at this point you'd have to come up with the killer to prove), then what was done to them is a shameful and monumental injustice. This is my interest in the case, that it has scary implications re. the justice system. The media is totally corrupt as we already know.

If an 'intruder' killer is found, then those who felt the Ramseys were guilty can easily be forgiven for concluding as they did, because the media sold that angle nonstop. I really blame the media more than anyone for how this judgment was promoted. Their replays of the pix of Jonbenet in dress-up was a visual indictment of the parents over and over again. They seized on every opportunity to imply that because they paraded their child in pageants (abuse), they must have killed her. I agree with you that this pageant thing is a big scam that many doting parents fall prey to. However other parents 'live through their kids' in perhaps more acceptable ways. Everyone knows an overly focused parent. None of this behavior is good (yuk)...but it's not equated with or indicative of violent criminality.

One of the investigators who quit the case over this was interviewed recently. His words were basically, "the Ramseys were convicted (in the court of public opinion) by PERCEPTIONS, not evidence."

See: The case for an intruder
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_4923124,00.html

[BlueIris]

27. Okay, I confess. Every time I look at him, I get choked up.

It's my classic, "creep-alert" response--might even have a psychic component, I don't know. Watery eyes, shudders, choking feeling. It's unsettling. I just saw another flash of him on television a few minutes ago and ACK! I am SO having problems sleeping tonight.

Still not really sure he did it or was even substantially involved in it. Some of his vague, "I was with Jon Benet when she died" statements are just...weird. Sounds like a lot of lawyers have coached him, actually, which--don't even get me started. We would be here all night. Let me just say that I feel it's not so strangely...appropriate that this man has come forward and is now getting so much attention during the last throes of the Bush Administration.

[marions ghost]

40. I think I get what you're talking about

this guy looks so pathetic you almost feel sorry for him...which causes a disconnect with the part of the brain that says "guy is an obsessive psycho at the very least, maybe even a killer." There's a wide range of emotional responses to this person's mere image, since we don't actually KNOW anything about him. The image has come before any real knowledge. So you can't just "otherize" him completely, reject him, get the release of complete loathing, and move on. We don't know if he is a villain or just another sad case. He's an enigma right now. And the media will string this fascination phase out as long as they can. They have made him a mirror--representing the demons within --but one we can clearly focus on, while shifting the collective gaze from the demons in powerful political positions. The big media are expert manipulators of our most visceral responses, for their own gain. We see it over and over again.

There is obviously a sexual ambiguity (transsexuality) about Karr that is unsettling and this heightens the ambiguity of all the confusing 'facts' in this case. I am prepared to believe he is totally innocent of the crime but I also have a hunch that he might know something about it. Maybe --as others have alluded to here--through some channels that have developed after the actual murder.

:shiver: yeah he's creepy all right. I don't watch it on TV. I'm too sensitive to all that 'instant replay' bludgeoning. (Ten years later I could probably draw you an accurate picture of Monica in the black beret smiling at Bill). Now I know better...no Natalie, no Michael Jackson, no JonBenet part 2 images. I admit to being glued during Katrina but made a personal choice to be there with that, as it was all about the government response. You can tell when the media is going to do their image assault thing and I just take a TV break or get news from the net, where you have a choice of what images you want to look at.

[cassiepriam]

42. The suspect also lived in Petaluma where Polly Klaus was killed?

Perhaps he was a groupie of sorts, obsessed with child
murders.

[yellowdawgdem]

46. photo looks vaguely like Karr

but my sense is that the situation was more complex, and might've involved several people- peripherally.
The odd way that JonBenet was dressed and made up to look like a miniature adult female is weird in itself. I would guess that her parents had some strange tendencies, and might've been involved with other unsavory people - like attracts like. But whatever strangeness was going on in their family, that isn't the same thing as murder. So it seems likely to me that her parents were peripherally but not directly involved in the murder. I don't have a strong sense about Karr one way or the other, but intuitively I'd lean toward the theory that he wanted out of the Thailand prison system.