I am very sad about the Pope's death

[Nancy Waterman]

I am not a Catholic and didn't agree with him os some important issues, but I always felt he was totally dedicated to doing God's work in a selfless and loving way. I feel the world's loss of a great soul in these dark times.

[jrthin]

1. Ditto, Nancy. n/t

[Quakerfriend]

2. Me as well, Nanc.

As I watch those gathered in the square on TV, I think they too feel the loss of this extraordinary soul is compounded by the fear and uncertainty that we see around the world at this time.

Pray for peace.:grouphug:

[saracat]

3. I am as well. I was raised as a Catholic but am no longer .

But still, he was a peacemaker. Did you hear the coverage of his being a mystic ? Very interesting I didn't know that. May he rest in peace. The world has suffered a great loss.

[loudsue]

4. In this day of idiots in places of leadership, the Pope's life is even

more remarkable, by contrast. I share your feelings of sadness for this event that marks the end of his papacy. He truly was a great soul, and was very perceptive about people. He loved Mahatma Gandhi, and thought a lot of Jimmy Carter, and enjoyed Bill Clinton (but was very concerned about Clinton's actions in Bosnia).

Every picture you saw of him with either Bush I or II, you could tell he felt very stand-offish when they were around. He even mentioned that he wished in 2003 that he was younger, because he felt that Geedubya had many similarities to the figure that played prominently in Revelations, and he wanted to be stronger to stand up against that. To me, that's pretty telling. Especially, as Saracat mentioned, that because he was a mystic, he would be so suspicious of the energy that surrounds bush jr. that he would bring up the anti-christ thingy.

The man lived his life with a heart full of love, in spite of a few human and cultural prejudices.

Maybe it's just me, but I'm really afraid for a new pope to be chosen at this point in history....things are so upside-down, and there are some sinister "agendas" that are playing into the hands of the dark forces. I hope that such a dark energy force is kept out of the conclave while they are choosing a new pope. Especially since the forces of darkness have chosen to work THROUGH churches at this point in history.

O8) Let's pray the forces of light prevail! O8)

:kick:

[NEOBuckeye]

5. I agree with you, Nancy

I was raised Fundamentalist/Protestant, though I do have some Catholic ties within my family. I can relate through those Catholic family members who I know are grieving for the Pope's passing.

I disagreed with Pope John Paul II on many issues, such as birth control and sexuality, but I still always felt he was a kind-hearted man who genuinely tried to work for the greater good of all. I do admire him for the way he reached out to and opened dialogue with people of other faiths, including Protestants and Muslims, who reciprocated respect for him, as well as for his stand against war (including both Bush-Iraqi Wars) in favor of peace, and capitalist excesses that come at the expense of people and the environment.

I think he really did care about the world's children and their future in a way probably unmatched by any other world leader during his time. Our own leaders who now utter empty condolences in his wake would do well to learn from this Pope's life.

[Mandate My Ass]

6. Same here

We had just gotten back from my niece's 4th birthday party this afternoon and my father met us at the door with the news. Despite knowing it was coming and coming soon, the wave of sadness I felt really stunned me and I haven't been a practicing Catholic for nearly 20 years.

I had attended a Mass he gave here in Philadelphia right at the start of his tenure as pope, and I remember like it was yesterday how incredibly strong and deep his faith was and his love of God and mankind. He absolutely exuded it. He was someone who could speak through experience and with authority about the incompatibility of war and unfettered capitalism on human civilization in general, but particularly with the less fortunate.

The world has become a dark place of late and is a bit darker for his passing.

[Desertrose]

7. me too....I'm not even Catholic

but I feel regardless of his being the Pope that he was a very special human being who will be greatly missed.

O8)

Go in Peace, John Paul......the world is a bit darker for your leaving.

[NJCher]

8. I don't have any feelings about it

I caught a few glimpses of some photographs of grieving people. On NPR, they were playing some spiritual music to go with the story and it annoyed me because I felt it was manipulative. So that was enough for me.

I've pretty much withdrawn from the news media and one of the consequences of that is things like this happen and I see or feel no connection.

It poses some interesting questions. Does the media effect some type of reaction that wouldn't be there ordinarily? Is there a kind of mass catharsis that comes about if one watches/participates with the national media?

I really feel like an outsider with my students and even when I come to DU because I don't know diddley about Scott Peterson, Jacko, what's going on with the Pope. Nothing.

Instead, I listen to such music as Phillip Glass's "Living Water" and watch spring come about.


Cher

[stellanoir]

9. Just got his birthdata in an e-mail from AstroDataBank

Data rated an A (from memory)

Pope John Paul II, May 18, 1920, 5:30 pm EET (-2), Wadowice, Poland, 49N53, 19E30

He left some mighty big scarpes (shoes) to fill for sure.

[loudsue]

10. Wow! What a line-up of planets he had at his passing!

Almost all of his progressed planets were lined up together in his natal 9th through 11th houses. The first words that come to my mind are "crowning achievement".

I'd post the chart if I knew how, but it's quite a chart to see!

:kick:

[Pallas180]

11. I have to admit, I cried at his death.

If anyone has ever been in the presence of a truly
holy and spiritual person, they know it. There is a peace, a serenity, a holiness, an aura around them. A love truly emanates from them that attracts other people.

It is apparent that Karol Woytila (sp) Pope John Paul ll was one of these people.

Was he wrong on many matters? yes. Did he do the right thing on many matters? yes. After all, he was still human.

I'm not Catholic and not Christian - but I admire the good things he has done, the corrections to wrongs done by the church for 2000 years and his apology in the name of the Church for them; his respect for other religions, his apology for the wickedness of the Church for the Crusades against Muslims killing thousands, his apology for the wickedness of the Church for the Inquisition and the killing of Jews and the Church falsely blaming Jews for the death of Jesus; his declaration that offenses against these other religions were an offense and sin against God.

These are revolutionary world changing things he did. asode from the world changing recognition of countries that had not been recognized by the Vatican for hundreds of years. Not a small matter to change 2000 years of accepted Christian thought.

***
A High Jewish Rabbi (in the tradition of Kaballah or Lebovitch - the mystic sects, I think) just said on tv that "their belief is that there are 36 righteous indiviuals who keep the world going - and we have just lost one."

This is the first time I've ever heard of this and find it very interesting.

[Digit]

24. I was very sad at him passing as well...and I am not Catholic, either.

I watched part of the coverage of them taking his body to the Basilica and it was all so very touching. The outpouring of love was almost overwhelming.
I found the chanting almost otherworldly.
He was a great man, bigger than life.

[Eloriel]

12. Wow. I couldn't disagree with all of you any more

When I contemplate the direct and immediate and very real, personal suffering of MILLIONS of people that he was directly responsible for as pontiff, there's no way in hell I find anything whatsoever to mourn about with his death. (Just the suffering due to the birth control issue alone is enough suffering IMO.)

Did he do some good? Probably. I can only think of one group of people currently alive that I consider irredeemably evil these days. My God, people, just think of the pedophiles he sheltered! Think of the women he wronged with his antedeluvian attitudes about women and abortion and birth control AND the priesthood. Think too that in a world where women aren't "good enough" to EVER be spiritual leaders in the Church, they're for damned sure not "ood enough" for a whole lot more. They ARE, by definition, 2nd class citizens and justifiably, deservedly so. There was no excuse for this misogyny in the last half of the 20th Century, let alone the 21st Century. Same for the defense and enabling of pedophiles, same for the gay bashing.

I'm saddened by this adulation at DU, but perhaps especially in this forum.

Personally, I am elated at his passing. Some prophecy or another (and I can't remember which) pegged this pope as the 2nd to last, which means that his successor will be the last, if the prophecy holds. I'm all for it: bring it on. Two millennia of active harm (including genocide of nearly ALL the world's indigenous populations, the subjugation of women including The Burning Times, the homophobia, the protection and promotion of pedophilia, etc., etc., etc.), is ENOUGH and more.

Put another way: There's no place for a Piscean institution like the Catholic Church in the Aquarian Age.

[Desertrose]

13. I understand what you are saying and where you are coming from....

I guess was more into the thing about a life ending. I like to think perhaps he was constrained by his office.....what could he have done had he not been Pope ....or had enough power & freedom to REALLY change things...WOULD he have? Is it fair to expect one man to change it all?? Who can say....


As far as the Catholic church and the lies it has spun and promoted over the past few millenia..yeah. It is way way past time for that to come to an end....organized religion is just so far out of my mindset that, goddess help me, I tend to block out all the crap. What will it take to wake people up & make them think for themselves.....

What they have done to make women second class citizens and head trip us into believing all that crap...well I agree...its time for the other side of thr story to come out...which is why its so cool about the DaVinci Code book & movie. I hope we are seeing the beginning of the end of the Catholic church's domination...

Please don't take my post of sympathy for those who felt connected to this man as adulation. I know people are feeling sad the Pope is dead...maybe his death will wake them up & make them think... we can hope, right??

[Eloriel]

25. Seems I'm not alone

No less than Matthew Fox has weighed in on the subject:

discussed here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=103&topic_id=117682#117723

Some Reflections on the Recent Papacy of JPII
by Matthew Fox, Ph.D.
http://www.opednews.com/foxmatthew_040405_pope.htm

here's the excerpt I found most amazing (because I either didn't even know about it or had forgotten it entirely):

A prolonged effort to render fascism fashionable. This includes the rushing into canonization of the card-carrying fascist priest who founded the Opus Dei movement even though this man actually praised Adolf Hitler and also denounced women and has been accused of sexual abuse of six young men who are alive today.

The taking of Opus Dei under the hand of the papacy granting it legitimacy and power within and without the Catholic structure.

The conscious destruction and systemic dismanteling of the Liberation Theology movement and the very vital base communities it spawned in Latin America in particular--a move which has opened up Latin America to an onslaught of Pentecostal and right wing religious huckstering. The demise of the Catholic Church in Latin America is now well underway--pentecostals are sweeping away the population--now that this papacy (with the encouragment and support of the CIA) has destroyed liberation theology and replaced it with opus dei bishops and cardinals.

-- and there's much, much more --

[Me.]

35. While I Don't Celebrate His Passing

I was never a fan, primarily for the reasons stated in the Fox piece. Personally I feel it is twilight for the Catholic Church, their numbers are steadily dwindling and their philosophies reflect nothing of the practicality needed to live and survive in the modern world. Population control is a must, and women will have their day. These are realities, amongst others, the church must face. And if I hear one more cleric state the church is not a democracy I shall scream. What they forget when parroting that shibboleth is that there must be a hold, a draw, something to attract people to their church. For in a world where parents can't afford to take care of dozens of children, where millions of orphans are being created due to aids, where the murder rate is highest among pregnant women, and people are told they are wicked for feeling and expressing the love that is innate in them, the insistence of adhering to mandates set out by men who have no real association or experience with life as most humans in the world know it, has very little value. And frankly, I don't need to be told how to live my life or relate to God by yet another elderly, dyspeptic man wearing an elaborate dress.

[seventythree]

14. understand

but I'm not elated at anyone's passing. At the very least, the family mourns. The older I get, the more I realize that change comes with baby steps. He took a baby step with allowing more women into the offices of the Vatican -- I know, compared to the history of the church, there is a need for a huge step, but it doesn't generally work that way. I was the most disturbed by his elevating that head priest in New England to a post at the Vatican after he had sheltered the pedophiles. But none of us are without fault -- and he was, after all, just a man, burdened by all that male "entitlement" crap.

There is another Pope before Petrus Romanus, the last Pope, according to St. Malachi. Gloria Olivae, I believe -- a peace Pope?? a Benedictine? An olive farmer? I know in my heart that no church can stand which has so ill treated women, but if Malachi is right about the last Pope, it's not just the church which is going to be desecrated. After a funeral today (I am not Catholic but my husband's family is)I was having lunch with the priest who said the new Pope will not be young, like this one was. I said -- oh, no because we will be getting to Petrus Romanus faster then, and I don't really want to be around for that.

[Pallas180]

15. 73, did the priest know what you were talking about?Malachi's

prophecies...that he has accurately predicted every pope ? and that he would be the next to the last Pope???

Now that would be an interesting discussion with a priest.

yes, it seemed to me that this pope will be a Benedictine. I'm not a catholic either, but is a Benedictine from the same order or interchangeably called Franciscan?

If so Cardinal Hummes from South America is a Franciscan I think.


this should keep you busy for at least 2 or 3 days.

http://www.ewtn.com/HolySee/Interregnum/electors.asp

That website lists all the current (117)cardinals in the "selector college" (although there are two who are being kept secret..perhpas they're Chinese, and for their safety).

When you click on their name, you get a biography.

If St. Malachy is correct,and he hasn't been wrong so far, we will find the Benedictine aka Franciscan priest in one of those bigraphies ...and supposedly that will be the next pope. I'm wondering if it's the cardinal from Austria with that background.

[okasha]

16. Benedictines and Franciscans are not the same thing.

Benedictines are monks--contemplatives who largely remain in their monastaries under a rubric of "Pray and Work." Franciscans are friars, an active order whose ministry is among the people.

Edited to add: there are four Franciscans on that list, no Benedictines. Franciscans are denoted by O. F. M. after their names, "Order of Friars Mendicant."

[Pallas180]

17. Thank you Okasha. Here's what

St. Malachi says:

http://www.dayofgod.net/Malachy/malachy.htm

One of Malachy s strangest predictions concerned the pope who would follow "De Medietate Lunae. "He is designated as "De Labore Solis", or "from the toil of the sun." Applied to John Paul 11, this phrase reveals nothing less than a double prophecy.

The current pope, the first non-Italian elected in 456 years, is a native of Krakow, Poland. Krakow is the city where, in the 15th and 16th centuries, Copernicus "toiled" for years to prove his heretical theory that the earth revolved around the sun. Many of Malachy s interpreters also suggested that the "sun" reference indicated a young pope. Fifty- eight years old at the time of his election, John Paul 11 is the youngest pope in over a century.

John Paul II s successor is called " Gloria Olivae," or "glory of the olive. "traditionally, the olive branch has been associated with peace, but in both the Old and New Testaments it also serves as an emblem for the Jews. Putting the two together, some commentators believe that the reign of this pope will be a peaceful one during which the prophesied conversion of the Jews will take place. (On Edit: I seem to recall that there is or was a French Cardinal who was a conversion from Judaism to Catholicism, perhaps during the Inquisition - I don;t remember when clearly or if he is still alive and under 80)

However , Malachy s description may instead refer to St. Benedicts 6th century prophecy that a member of his order will lead the Church in its fight against evil just before the Apocalypse. The Benedictine Order is known by another name: Olivetans.

After Gloria Olivae comes Petrus Romanus, the final pope of Rome, during whose reign " the seven-hilled city will be destroyed. "The Church particularly- and understandably -repudiates St. Malachy's last, black prophecy. But it is striking that at least one pope had a similar mystical vision.

In 1909, while granting an audience, pope Pius X leaned back and closed his eyes. Suddenly he "awoke" and cried out: "What I see is terrifying. Will it be myself? Will it be my successor? What is certain is that the pope will quit Rome, and in leaving the Vatican, he will have to walk over the dead bodies of his priests."

Pius's prophecy was fulfilled neither in his own time nor in that of the next pontiff. According to Malachy's vision of the Church's "tribulation," it applies to the successor of Gloria Olivae-the next pope but one.

[Pallas180]

18. The Benedictines have said one of theirs will be Pope, before

the last. If they are monks, then how could they be a Cardinal?

[Pallas180]

19. the Jewish Cardinal is still alive and 78 years old, he could

be in the electorate

http://www.detnews.com/2005/religion/0501/25/religion-66892.htm

Saturday, January 22, 2005


French cardinal carries out pope's mission at Auschwitz

Jewish convert to Catholicism lost his mother at the camp

By Angela Doland / Associated Press


PARIS -- When the pope called with a delicate request, Paris Archbishop Jean-Marie Lustiger hesitated at first. Pope John Paul II wanted Lustiger to represent him at ceremonies to mark the liberation of Auschwitz.

Lustiger, a Jewish convert to Catholicism, lost his mother at the concentration camp.

"I thought for 30 seconds, and I said yes," Lustiger said. "It's difficult for me, but I'll say yes."

Next Thursday, 60 years to the day after advancing Soviet troops liberated Auschwitz, world leaders will pay their respects at the former death camp in Poland. Between 1 million and 1.5 million prisoners -- most of them Jews -- were killed in gas chambers there or died of starvation and disease.

The 60th anniversary carries special weight, as few survivors are likely to be alive for the 70th.

Lustiger, 78, will attend out of a sense of duty to the Church.

"I have been once in my life to Auschwitz. I don't want to return, because it is a place of death and destruction," Lustiger told reporters before his trip. "If I am going, it is because the pope asked me."

Lustiger visited the camp in 1983. Asked what Auschwitz means to him, he makes a list: "Murder, extermination, sin, the sin of men, horror, the madness of sin."

Lustiger was never sent to a concentration camp. But "I could have and should have been deported," he said.

As a teenager, Lustiger went into hiding from the Nazis in Orleans, south of the capital. There, Lustiger, who was not a practicing Jew, converted to Catholicism in 1940 at the age of 14.

While Lustiger's father brought the children to safety, his mother stayed behind in Paris to tend to the family hosiery shop.

She was rounded up by the Nazi occupying forces, who sent her first to the Drancy transit camp outside Paris and then on to Auschwitz.

Lustiger was ordained a priest in 1954. Despite his atypical background, he rose through the Church hierarchy to become the public face of Catholicism in France.

In public, Lustiger has rarely addressed his mother's death, or the deaths of 30 to 40 other family members on his father's side who also died at the hands of the Nazis.

Lustiger says he saw the tragedy coming, though he was just a child. He spent several months in 1936 and 1937 with host families in Germany to learn the language.

Though his hosts were anti-Nazi and knew that he was Jewish, others did not realize his identity, Lustiger said.

In Germany, Lustiger said, he met children in the Hitler Youth who told him: "We will kill all the Jews."

"I was sure they would do what they said they would do," Lustiger said. "Nobody around me wanted to believe me."

[seventythree]

31. very, very interesting

Geesh -- I can't help but think of The DaVinci Code and the last chapter about the placement of The Holy Grail.

[hippiechick]

38. My untrained eye

... almost sees JPII's sending Lustiger to this ceremony as something done out of spite ... a callous reminder, salt in a wound, as it were ?

:scared:

[Moderator]

42. Pallas180

Per DU copyright rules
please post only four
paragraphs from the
copyrighted news source.


Thank you.


DU Moderator

[Pallas180]

20. Okasha, please advise

is "O.S. B." Order of St. Benedict?

and does "D.S. B." also have something to do with Benedictines?

[okasha]

21. Yes, OSB is Order of St. Benedict.

I don't know what DSB is. There have, incidentally, been several Benedictine Popes. Gregory the Great was a Benedictine, as were Urban V and Pius VII. It's possible for a Benedictine to work outside the monastary under certain circumstances, and also for a brother to be appointed a Bishop/Archbishop, and thence Cardinal.

While none of the current electors is a Benedictine, it is possible--not likely, just barely possible and not against the rules--for them to choose outside the College of Cardinals.

Another possibility, it seems to me, is that a Franciscan could be elected and take the Papal name of Benedict.

BTW, I see I made an error above. In OFM, the M stands for Minor, so the abbreviation is Order of Friars Minor. Friars of all orders in the Middle Ages were mendicants--wandering preachers who frequently had to beg for their meals.

[Pallas180]

22. Thank you. I've been thinking, in the last few months many Cardinals

have been named...maybe they just aren't listed yet...and they could be of the Benedictine Order, but it would certainly not be the American Order.

Was there ever a Peope Benedict before?

I've been searching on the internet for newly appointed Cardinal + Benedictine...but nothing.

Amazing...what has been televised which never was before, has made the history of the Vatican and Popes interesting - they should have done this long ago :)

[okasha]

23. I think the Popes Benedict

are up to XIV or XV. The last one, if I remember correctly, was close to the beginning of the twentieth century.

[Pallas180]

26. AHA! Thanks Okasha. All the Popes Benedict were

Italian...so that leads me to think it will be another Italian...

either one who has an olive tree on his coat of arms, or who comes from the section where olive trees are grown. Where is that? Sicily?

[pacifictiger]

27. check out this thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=214x16613

Hope this is not true for some pushing for a young conservative german - scary thought

[2Design]

52. The Anti Christ - the coming of God's Kingdom means the defeat of the Pope

Interesting this discussion from before election to the way things have played out - found this link

http://www.adishakti.org/his_human_adversary.htm
Satanic Truth Of Evil Empire
<snip>
"The Catholic Church is furthest from God as far as organized religion is concerned.

The Pope has absolutely no authority in the Kingdom of God — This Revealed Truth is Absolute.

He does not know the depth of his ignorance or the height of his arrogance. Neither the Father, the Holy Spirit, nor Shri Jesus ever endorsed the following facts which form the fundamental faith and dark origins of the Catholic Church: original sin, hereditary papal infallibility, Inquisition, purgatory, canonization, clerical hierarchy, baptism, confession, celibacy, and simony. "

Saint Benedict -
From earlier comments in this thread
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=245&topic_id=5934#6035

Pushed in the conservative - which was the topic of this thread
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=214x16613

Ratzinger in previous thread
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=245&topic_id=5934#6480

[seventythree]

33. The Petrus Romanus prophecy

could be a metaphor -- destruction of the 7 hilled city, walking over dead priests on the way out. Even the Apocalypse could be a metaphor. I think of the verses in Revelations which speak to the sheltering of (a) woman -- generally viewed as "the church" -- sheltered for a time and a time again from the dragon which seeks to kill her (operating from memory here). What if women were to be made equal partners in the church and the world?

[Pallas180]

34. 73 - Unfortunately, astrologically we see very difficult times

coming ahead. The tsunami is just the beginning of earth changes coming, as they have periodically throughout the history of the earth, and there are wars which, if these people stay in power, will increase until the entire world is at war.

[seventythree]

36. I wish I understood astrology,

and I "feel" tough times are coming. Hubby said the other day -- maybe we should plant an apple tree; we might need to sell them on the street like in the 30's.
When we were young we both dreamed of a nuclear blast, but it was during Nam, and who knows what fears got introduced into our psyche. Plus, we are boomers so had the nuclear drills in grade school. His dream was of coming up out of a fox hole, but then he always wanted to be the last person alive (ick!) in a blast (he's a Nam vet so fox holes are familiar) -- mine was sitting by him as he died from radiation exposure. The weird thing about my dream was, at the time, I didn't know what radiation exposure even looked like (much like being napalmed, thus the Nam influence), and I had never heard of nuclear rain, but both were in my dream.
If you saw "What the Bleep Do We Know," you will appreciate my feeling that it all could have already happened in a simultaneous universe. I think I would drive myself nuts if I allowed myself to think that the very worst I can imagine will come true.

[seventythree]

32. thanks -- interesting info

[saracat]

29. Oddly enough, if you look up the oddsmakers

(bookies) the Irish Cardinal, forget his name, is doing well! Irish Peace Plan maybe?

[seventythree]

30. Gee, I don't know

if Benedictines are interchangeable with Franciscans. I am not a Catholic, and my one authority, my Benedictine priest uncle-in-law, has passed on. The priest I spoke to at the lunch, just did not respond to my bringing it up; I think he got up to get dessert at that moment. I am not so sure about Malachi, as some of the explanatory statements, I think, could be construed to fit. I had heard that the moniker about the sun with JP2 fit because he was Polish and that was the home of Copernicus -- a stretch in my mind. I just recently read that the moniker could be interpreted as eclipse of the sun, and he was born under an eclipse.

Thanks for the link -- there's enough study here to take me to the actual choosing day, I am afraid. I remember some time ago looking at a long list, but in the one I looked at, not all the orders were given and I couldn't find a Benedictine. Let us hope the moniker will mean a peace Pope -- we are so in need of peace in the world, and internal healing and recompense for the scandals of the church.

[Behind the Aegis]

28. I agree to some extent

I am not 'elated' but, I am not really anything. His passing doesn't make me happy or sad. I feel sympathy, and maybe some empathy, for those whom this death is a loss. However, he lived a better life than most people on Earth. And, his death was much better than most. He died in a warm place surrounded by loved ones. So many of his followers, and those who weren't, aren't so lucky. He also had more power than most people on Earth and how he chose to use it is what I take issue with. I know he did some good, but his word also hurt millions of people.

What I have found most surprising is all the sudden "love" for him. I remember not long after joining DU there were a few "Pope-bashing" threads, and only the Catholics were pissed off. Now that he has passed on, all of the sudden he is given a reprieve, of sorts. I don't get it. Of course, I saw the same thing when Reagan died. I thought I was on the wrong damn site! I was expecting some posters to start a "We love Reagan" forum!

Some people have been crass and over-the-top, but I think others demanding our sympathies are just as over-the-top!

[Matilda]

37. I wouldn't say I'm elated at his passing,

but I find all this sudden adulation a bit disturbing. John Paul was
very good at manipulating the media, and it looks as if he's
continuing it beyond the grave.

I'm Catholic, but also a lot of other things too - such as a
reincarnationist and a student astrologer. Probably both would
warrant excommunication, but I don't let it bother me.

I'm a child of Vatican II, a disciple of John XXIII who let so much
love and light into the Church. Today we have a Church full of
bigotry and intolerance and grey conformity. Only sycophants
prospered under JP, so the new pope will come from the ranks of those
who are willing to kiss the boots of anyone to get power. Doesn't
fill me with much hope.

I think the Church will continue to stumble along the wrong path for
maybe another decade or so, then with empty pews and no priests,
they'll suddently realise they should go back to Vatican II, and
follow the ideals of John the Great. A more democratic Church, and
one that will embrace women, and people of faith of whatever sexual
orientation they may be.

[Matariki]

40. thanks for saying that. someone had to. n/t

[PinkTiger]

39. I concur, but we should celebrate his life and accept his death.

When someone lives a long and useful life with so much influence, death is no tragedy. Instead, it is a chance to pause and reflect on the life lived.
My father died of Parkinsons disease. When he died, there was sadness, but a similar reflection.
In great suffering, there is a great message, especially when one goes so gracefully as did the Pope.

[Pallas180]

41. More info on potential new Pope - Benedictine connection?

Well, here are some names which we haven't researched for Order of the Benedictine connection -

there's an American branch, but an international branch of the order -and you know they are not going to name an American, I don;t think - although they say the Washington DC Cardinal McCarrick is very influential.

"The names of those emerging as possible papal successors include contenders from Latin America, such as Cardinal Claudio Hummes of Brazil and Cardinal Oscar Andres Rodriguez Maradiaga of Honduras, and a Vatican official from Africa: Cardinal Francis Arinze of Nigeria.

Europeans mentioned include Belgian Cardinal Godfried Danneels, Cardinal Christoph Schoenborn of Austria and German Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger. Italian "papabili" include Cardinal Dionigi Tettamanzi and Cardinal Giovanni Battista Re.

(by the way, did you all know there's an olive oil, imported from Italy named "Pope Olive Oil" ? but it doesn't say what city.

Another famous Italian olive oil is Bertolli, - what city?

I think another thing to take into consideration is that historically
the Vatican has chosen rich popes so that their wealth would be left to the Church, but that may be well in the past.

So I'm wondering if any of these other names might be the connection to Benedictines and Olive Oil.

[liberalla]

44. Regarding your post above

Regarding your post above, #34, link= http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=245&topic_id=5934&mesg_id=6095

Unfortunately, astrologically we see very difficult times coming ahead. The tsunami is just the beginning of earth changes coming, as they have periodically throughout the history of the earth, and there are wars which, if these people stay in power, will increase until the entire world is at war.

Have you written more on this subject here at DU? If so, do you have a link? I would love to read it. I feel that myself, as well as a worrisome feeling about May (21st?) and June (this year). Something major happening. Main concerns for me are economic, political, and weather. I'm paying attention to earthquakes and volcanoes too.

Thanking you in advance!

[Dover]

43. Nostradamus: new Pope assassinated

Nostradamus: new Pope assassinated

07apr05

THE pope elected to succeed John Paul II will be assassinated and his death will spark a Muslim invasion of the west that will split the Catholic Church, according to an interpretation of Nostradamus's prophecies by a leading Colombian author.

"The next pope elected will be subsequently murdered in central Italy. Then comes pope number 112, who will flee Rome because of an attack by Muslims," Gonzalo Echeverri, a Colombian investigating judge and author of a book on Nostradamus said.

According to Echeverri, the pope will base himself in Avignon, France and another pontiff will take control in Italy, splitting the Catholic church in two.

"There is a very clear prophecy that says the holy father will move to another place, even warning that the French pope will not be able to stay in Avignon due to the Muslim invasion and will flee again to Lyon, where he will be attacked, according to Nostradamus," Mr Echeverri said....cont'd

http://www.theadvertiser.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5936,12780360%255E1702,00.html

[Pallas180]

45. Interesting Dover - one wonders if it's a confusion with JP 1 though- but

there is the last prophecy of Fatima which has never really been told and the Vatican has tried to euphemism - the same way they did
with the meaning of PJ 2's last word.

Then there's the fact that the Israelis found Dead Sea Scrolls some of which they have never allowed to be seen by the outside world - if those scrolls indicated that Jesus lived, and married Mary Magdalene the whole myth of Xianity , all that the church is based on, resurrection, would be destroyed as would be the Church, much like Dan Brown's book.

That discovery and announcement would be a very unhealthy thing for the Jews and Israelis to be the discoverers of - likely to have led their annihilation and wars. But I suspect what they found has something to do with that. Why else would they never allow it to be viewed.

[Dover]

46. Would love to know what's in the Vatican 'vault'. Wouldn't that be

a kick! I wonder if scholars have been permitted to view the 'unseen' scrolls. I don't recall any of the details of that situation.

It sure seems like Nostradamus's predictions about the Muslim invasion could very well be brewing....though we do have free will and the ability to affect change. It will be interesting to see who the next Pope will be.

[Pallas180]

48. "It will be interesting to see who the next Pope will be."

Seems to me their choice in this period of time is critical.

And the struggle would be between the old guard European Opus Dei conservative types and the more liberal, in some instances, (but not dogma) John Paul types.

If they go with the old guard, which I'm sure there is a lot of manipulation and pressure to do - I could believe the Church would fall within two popes.

If they go with someone like JP 2 there's a chance of continuation .
But the only one I can think of who has humor and humanness is Cardinal McCarrick of Wash DC who is said to have a lot of power. And
you know they wont elect an American.

I dont think they'll elect a black pope either.

The compromise would be a Latin American, but I still think the European cardinals will fight to get themselves back in power -

Yes, Muslims are already very heavily in residence in France and Germany - so I have no doubts they'll take over Europe. I Dont remember where I read the prediction, but it was that the Muslims would conquer all of Southern Europe (it wouldn't be the first time in history).

[Dover]

49. The Signs in Nostradamus And St. Malachy's Prophecies (from Hogue)

(12 April 2005--A week before the Conclave convenes to elect the next pope)
THE NEXT POPE
The Signs in Nostradamus
And St. Malachy's Prophecies

Friends,
Some of you may not be aware that I have already written a book on the matter of future papal succession.

"The Last Pope: The Decline and Fall of the Church of Rome" (http://www.hogueprophecy.com/lastpop.htm), is available on Amazon.com through my web site and can be found in your local book stores or ordered from Barnes and Noble in America.

Here is a brief synopsis of "The Last Pope":

In 1139 St. Malachy set out from Ireland on a harrowing pilgrimage to Rome. On sighting the Eternal City he fell to the ground and began murmuring cryptic Latin phrases, each signifying the future destiny of the popes. For four hundred years the manuscript was locked in the labyrinth of the Vatican. On its rediscovery in 1595 it was rejected by the Church authorities as fraudulent but the content of the prophecies remains remarkably and chillingly accurate: to this day 90 percent have come true.

In examining the context of St. Malachy's life, his pilgrimages and his miracles, "The Last Pope" presents a fascinating account of the fates of the popes and eight hundred years of Catholic prophecy; including those of contemporaries, Hildegard von Bingen, Joachim de Fiore and the 16th-century Catholic seer, Nostradamus, whose vision of the papal succession closely resemble that of St. Malachy.

In this first complete study of St. Malachy's prophecies in over a hundred years, "The Last Pope" provides new revelations regarding the authenticity of the Latin mottoes. As the Roman Catholic Church continues to witness an eclipse in papal power this work uncovers the truth about St. Malachy's prophecies and reveals their significance as an account of the papal progression which Vatican policy makers have found too threatening to acknowledge.

St. Malachy prophesied an end to the Roman Catholic Church and predicted the fates of the popes until Judgment Day. Pope John Paul II has died. Only two popes remain on the doomsday list. Are the Catholic prophecies warning humanity of a great chastisement and apocalypse at hand? "The Last Pope" tries to answer these questions from outside of doomsday dogma's box. The end times may presage something unexpected and wonderful for Catholic and non-Catholics alike.

*

The conclave to elect the next to last pope will begin a week from the writing of this article (18 April). Today, I wish to briefly go over those parallel prophecies about the next pope written by the 16th-century French prophet, Nostradamus. If he is speaking about "Gloria Olivae" (Glory of the Olive)--the Latin motto St. Malachy uses for the next pope--does Nostradamus provide a hint from where in the world the next pope comes?

A new interpretation, if correct, of Century 5 Quatrain 49 of Nostradamus' prophetic masterpiece "Les Propheties," would cool the ardor of odds makers who bet that the next pope will be a Latin American. Nostradamus' inference to Spain includes candidates arising from her former colonial territories, such as Cardinal Carrera of Mexico, Cardinal Maradiaga of Honduras or Cardinal Hoyos of Columbia. Hence, the new pope will not hail "from Spain but from ancient France."

Nul de l'Espaigne mais de l'antique France,
Ne sera esleu pour le tremblant nacelle,
A l'ennemy sera faicte fiance,
Qui dans son regne sera peste cruelle.

Not from Spain but from ancient France,
Will be elected for the trembling ship ,
He will make a promise to the enemy,
Who will cause great plague during his reign.

Back in 1986, I surmised that a candidate hailing from within the borders of "ancient France" could include southwestern Poland, the birthplace of John Paul II. It lies within the outer frontiers of Charlemagne's early medieval empire.

What if this prophecy instead pinpoints his successor? And rather than the broadest extent of France's oldest Empire, the poetry meant us to look for the successor in the "oldest" and earliest holding of France?

The most ancient plot of French territory would be the holdings of the Merovingian Dynasty of the 5th and 6th century. Paris along with Reims was their chief city. The current Archbishop of Paris is Cardinal Lustiger, one of the late John Paul II's closest theological disciples. The late pontiff made Lustiger Archbishop of Orleans in 1979. Orleans is another region of "ancient France." John Paul II made him Archbishop of Paris in 1981.

Lustiger can be applied to my earlier interpretation of this prophecy as well. Like John Paul II, he comes from the frontiers of Charlemagne's ancient 8th-century Carolingian empire. Lustiger was born to Jewish parents in southwestern Poland. He survived the Holocaust, became a French citizen and converted to Catholicism. Today he remains a dark "Jewish" horse candidate for the next pope. His Jewish origin, however, and his age (79 years old) makes him a long shot. The Vatican avoids responding to what it calls polemicists (like myself) who might infer that their choice of a Jewish born pope fulfills some end-time prediction for the papal succession. If the first pope (the Apostle Peter) and the last pope should be both Jews, it closes destiny's circle, ending the papal succession.

Let us look again at the last three lines of the prophecy:

... will be elected for the trembling ship ,
He will make a promise to the enemy,
Who will cause great plague during his reign.

John Paul II trembled with Parkinson's disease and died as a result of complications from that illness. In my earlier interpretations, I noted that a great plague did appear during his pontificacy--AIDS. But if this prophecy is about the trembling John Paul's successor, then perhaps we face at last the long overdue visitation of a global pandemic during the new pope's reign.

Signs are already there that hemorrhagic fever plagues are on the rise in Africa. Doctors at the CDC (Center for Disease and Control) openly admit that the Bird Flu from South East Asia and China could mutate at any time from a bird-to-human to a human-to-human contagion. A form that can spread the deadly infection rapidly around world killing tens of millions.

What if the plague is manmade?

Another post John Paul II interpretation would imply that the future pope who St. Malachy calls "Glory of the Olive" makes a promise to enemies in a future war. This motto invokes the symbol of a dove of peace with olive branch in beak. The next pope could be a great peace maker. Taking Nostradamus' final line in mind, the next pope, in the name of peace reaches out to radical Islam. Unfortunately, the enemy turns on him, and the great plague foreseen comes out of biological or chemical weapons of mass destruction used by terrorists. A number of Nostradamus' prophecies infer such attacks on Rome will take place, forcing the evacuation of a future pontiff.

Gloria Olivae begins his reign as a pope bearing the "olive" branch of peace, but later he becomes the pontiff enduring Christ's apocalyptic prophecies from the Sermon on the Mount of "Olives." In other words, his reign marks the beginning of apocalyptic wars and rumors of apocalyptic wars spreading out from the Holy Land across the whole world.

Century 5 Quatrain 92 gives us another clue to the next pope. My interpretation made back in 1997 for "Nostradamus: The Complete Prophecies" (http://www.hogueprophecy.com/ncomplet.htm) remains unchanged:

Apres le siege tenu dixsept ans,
Cinq changeront en tel reuolu terme:
Puis sera l'vn esleu de mesme temps,
Qui des Romains ne sera trop conforme.

After the See kept for seventeen years,
Five completed terms will exchange within :
Then one will be elected at the same time,
Who will not be too conforming to the Romans.

This is what I said then:

"This could be about modern popes. Pius XI (1922-1939) ruled the Vatican for 17 years. The five successors would be Pius XII (1939-58), John XXIII (1958-63), Paul VI (1963-78), John Paul I (1978), and the current pope, John Paul II. When he dies a new pope will be elected that will not please the Vatican status quo. Perhaps he will be as revolutionary as Pope John Paul I."

OTHER PAPAL POSSIBILITIES
For St. Malachy's motto for the next pope:

GLORIA OLIVAE
(Glory of the Olive)

If the College of Cardinals convening on 18 April takes the short-lived caretaker route in their balloting then Cardinal Ratzinger has the best chance. My sense is the reign of this 77-year-old will be short. Maybe just four years. He will exhaust himself--as would any other elderly candidate in their late seventies--trying to keep up the pace that John Paul II set in his globe trotting ways.

St. Malachy's prophecies often describe the details of a pope's family arms or Papal heraldry. If the coat of arms of a candidate for Gloria Olivae should bear olives and olive branches, then expect it to be the current Archbishop of Milan, Cardinal Tettamanzi (his name means "bull's tits"). Then again we may toast the new pope with a Martini--a Cardinal Martini, that is. He is the previous Archbishop of Milan and noted Biblical scholar who now lives in Jerusalem for half of each year. Both the current and former archbishops of Milan are in play because the seal for the Archbishop of Milan bears olive branches.

I think the chances for a Latin American are quite high, but I believe European cardinals in the Conclave will see to it a European, if not an Italian, will be the next pope.

The top conservative Italian candidates include Biffi, Tettamanzi and Sodano. Tettamanzi's association with Opus Dei is key to an Italian conservative takeover. Then again, Tettamanzi has been best at hedging his spritual-political bets by also warming up to more liberal Catholic organizations. He at least has put on a good show as a moderate.

Of course we cannot rule out the importance of the Israeli connection with prophetic symbols of the olive and olive branch. Martini spends half of each year in Jerusalem and his potential candidacy enjoys that ever popular word play in prophecy: the double entendre. Read the "olive" branch of Israel along side the "olive" branch in the coat of arms as the previous Archbishop of Milan and it could equal "Gloria Olivae."

Martini is progressive so he is much more of a long shot. Tettamanzi is perhaps the late John Paul's choice for successor. It is traditional for a pope in his final years of life to appoint his successor as Archbishop of Milan, the largest Catholic Archdiocese in Italy. For example, John XXIII appointed his successor, Cardinal Montini (Paul VI) to that post.

The inclination to a conservative or progressive future pope depends on whether the College of Cardinals meeting in the conclave seek to sustain John Paul II's conservative agenda. If they do then do not expect John Paul III will heed to pressures from the laity and regional bishops to soften dictatorial control from Rome in their local affairs. Those who read the history of papal succession in my book, "The Last Pope," cannot fail to notice how often a conservative or liberal pope tries to stack the college with his own theologically sympathetic cardinals. Then, after his death, they choose a successor from the opposite pole. As the old Vatican saying goes: "A fat pope is followed by a thin pope, is followed by a fat pope, etc..."

I guess that makes the corpulent Tettamanzi the man of the white smoking stove piped hour because John Paul II was thinner than Tettamanzi. The latter is a native of the Milan region. That brings greater emphasis to his olive branched coat of arms as the Archbishop. He is 71. His mother is still alive and well and in her early 90s. The long living gene pool of the Bull Tits clan could confer on Tettamanzi more than a short rule of a caretaker pope. He might rival John Paul II in longevity sitting upon St. Peter's throne longer than a quarter century.

There is perhaps a deeper message hidden underneath the layers of peace making and a tie with Israel hinted in the cryptic motto "Glory of the Olive."

Christ's sermon on the Mount of Olives.

The next man in St. Peter's chair, and the second-to-last pope on St. Malachy's list before Judgment Day endures an apocalyptic pontificacy. This would be especially true if he does turn out to be one of the younger candidates from Latin America, such as Honduran (Maradiaga), the Mexican (Carrera), or the European Schonborn the German and Daneels the Belgian Cardinal. There is also Hummes of Brazil, but Nostradamus made it clear that the next pope would not come from the Spanish Empire of his day. Brazil belonged to Portugal. In any case, the youngest is 60 (Schonborn), the eldest is 71 (Daneels). Like Tettamanzi, there are enough relatively youthful heir apparents in the short list for becoming the next pope who may not be so short lived. He can linger long enough to see his pontificacy enter the 2020s--the same decade of catastrophe that so many prophets date as the beginning of humanity's true tribulation. Thus, the rule of St. Malachy's last pope, Petrus Romanus (Peter of Rome) may be a long time off in the future. There is still time to make St. Malachy's dire coda for the last pope a future avoided:

During the last persecution of the Holy Roman Church, there shall sit Peter of Rome, who shall feed the sheep amidst many great tribulations, and when these have passed, the City of the Seven Hills , shall be utterly destroyed, and the awful Judge will judge the people.

A detailed, line by line, interpretation of the dire days of the final Pope Peter of Rome can be read in pages 349-367 of "THE LAST POPE" (http://www.hogueprophecy.com/lastpop.htm)

John Hogue
Rogue Scholar/Author:

Nostradamus: A Life and Myth
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0007140517/qid%3D1052350823/sr%3D11-1/ref%3Dsr%5F11%5F1/002-0782031-2192829

Nostradamus: The New Millennium
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0007140924/hogueprophecyc0d

Nostradamus: The Complete Prophecies
http://www.hogueprophecy.com/ncomplet.htm

The Last Pope: The Decline and Fall of the Church of Rome
http://www.hogueprophecy.com/lastpop.htm

Messiahs, The Visions and Prophecies for the Second Coming
http://www.hogueprophecy.com/books.htm

Essential Nostradamus: Prophecies for the 21st Century and Beyond
http://www.hogueprophecy.com/essntln.htm

Snail Mail Address:

John Hogue
C/O
HogueProphecy Bulletins
P.O. Box 666
Langley WA 98260

[Pallas180]

50. Good report - lol-but it still leaves us wondering:) Today

there was some news blurb that the German pope seemed ahead.

Is that Ratzinger?

Wouldn't that be something if the Jewish Archbishop became Pope. But it would make sense, since in "the end times" they are trying to
convert Jews..and have made special attempts and inroads with Jews for Jesus.

Longshot - but it's possible.

But I still think they'll want old guard. Italian or European conservative.

[Pallas180]

51. Wa Po reports it's Martini v Ratzinger:

-snip-

"...German-born Ratzinger, who, like the pope, brooked no dissent on such issues as contraception, abortion, an end to celibacy for priests and the prohibition of the ordination of women. On Wednesday, he published a new book, titled "Values in a Time of Upheaval," that calls on Europe to return to its Christian roots and condemns divorce and gay marriage, according to the Associated Press.

Italian newspapers reported that between one-third and nearly half of the voting cardinals have signaled support for Ratzinger. There was no indication of who had made the estimate. Such reports could have been floated by Ratzinger supporters to create momentum, or by detractors to urge his rivals into action, some analysts suggested.

In several accounts of the secret pre-conclave meetings that the cardinals have conducted this week, Cardinal Carlo Maria Martini, the retired archbishop of Milan, took center stage as a kind of anti-Ratzinger.

Martini favors more cooperation between the papacy and local bishops and focuses more on social issues than Ratzinger does. In the scenarios imagined by some analysts of the Catholic Church, Martini and Ratzinger would in effect run against each other in the early rounds of the conclave, then, if they lacked enough votes to win, rally support for their own favorites. "

[Pikku]

55. Ancient France = Bavaria

Nul de l'Espaigne mais de l'antique France,
Ne sera esleu pour le tremblant nacelle,
A l'ennemy sera faicte fiance,
Qui dans son regne sera peste cruelle.

Not from Spain but from ancient France,
Will be elected for the trembling ship ,
He will make a promise to the enemy,
Who will cause great plague during his reign.


Ratzinger was born in Bavaria, which was ruled by "the Franks" (France, Charlemagne) once upon a time.

http://www.answers.com/topic/history-of-france

Ratzinger referred to the Catholic Church as a "a boat about to sink, a boat taking in water on every side"not too long ago. (Mar. 24)

http://www.ewtn.com/vnews/getstory.asp?number=55051

WRT to the St. Malachy prophecies, it may have already been mentioned that "gloria olivae" is sometimes seen to refer to the "Olivetans," or, in other words, the Benedictines. This order has claimed that one of the last popes would be of the Benedictine order. Ratzinger isn't Benedictine, but he did call himself Benedict XVI.

(Just for fun, google "Benedict XVI" )

[Pallas180]

56. good info Pikku, thanks. n/t

.

[linazelle]

47. The pope was a good man--a real man of God. n/t

[Pallas180]

53. Well Okasha called it and so did St. Malachy-Pope Benedict xv

Ratzinger.

And it seems to me with his attitude of non compromising - St Malachy will be right in his call that this is the next to the last Pope and the destruction of the Church.

Too bad.

[Pallas180]

54. Ratzinger in charge of doctrine crackdown

Ratzinger in Charge of Doctrine Crackdown

Tuesday, April 19, 2005 4:17 PM EDT
New Pope Joseph Ratzinger Vatican's Cardinal in Charge of Doctrinal Crackdowns


http://www.adelphia.net/news/read.php?id=11857077&ps=1012

[loudsue]

57. In regards to Dover's post #49, re: Next Pope's connections to Israel

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1113877273080

Looks like Poop Rat Zinger is playing footsie with the Rabbis.

<snip>

In one indication of his respect for Judaism, Ratzinger authorized in 2002 the publication of a report that stated that "the Jewish messianic wait is not in vain." That document also expressed regret that certain passages in the Christian Bible condemning individual Jews have been used to justify anti-Semitism.

The 210-page document, titled "The Jewish People and the Holy Scriptures in the Christian Bible," says Jews and Christians share their wait for the Messiah, although Jews are waiting for the first coming and Christians for the second.

:kick: