I'm beginning to wonder if we are losing the war on vaccination.

[trotsky]

Thanks to the Bush admin's disregard for and hatred of science they don't like, more people - even liberals - feel empowered to dismiss the "so-called experts" (i.e., the folks who have only spent a few decades of their lives studying the issues - "What the hell do they know? I spend an hour on Google each day!").

I wish it was so simple as to just let the anti-vaxers skip vaccination and then face the consequences. But they won't be the only victims. They'll take out hundreds, maybe thousands, of innocents with them.

[realisticphish]

1. i actually agree

people think small scale, and ignore the fact that by not getting a vaccination, they are relying on everyone else to not get the disease. If enough people decide to do that...


we always have the option of replacing Morgellons with vaccines in our chemtrails. After all, to rule the world, there must be a population alive to rule :shrug:

[muriel_volestrangler]

32. What do you mean - "have the option"? They're already on to that one

Chemtrails And Vaccines
What You Didn't Know About Vaccines And Human Animal Husbandry

Since 9-11 all US airports have been under military control. According to one credible source, there is a subrosa project known as 'Cloverleaf' that uses domestic air carriers retrofitted with special tanks to spray civilian populations with a variety of chemicals.

This retired government scientist goes on to say that reconstructed versions of the flu could be inserted into vaccines along with a more benign strain of the inoculum in order to slow the progression of its more deadly component. Chemicals in the chemtrails reported nationwide over the preceding decade, may assist the viral envelope to fuse with lung cells, guaranteeing ease of penetration and infection. People will pass along the flu to others and then start dropping like flies. This will cause a panic demand for more flu shots, thus accelerating the cycle. Persons not so inoculated will be blamed for spreading the disease.
...
At least two dozen microbiologists around the world have died violently in the last few years. Curiously, some of them were working on DNA sequencing. The most famous was Dr. David Kelly who died in July 2003. Working for the Mossad, Kelly orchestrated the defection of Russian microbiologist Vladimir Pasechnik, who had been working on a doomsday biological weapon capable of destroying one third of the planet's population.
...
n order to ensure maximum confusion, an edition of the New York Times from January 2002 reported that the US government had seen fit to declassify hundreds of germ warfare cookbooks. Although Lee Harvey Oswald's bank account information is sealed for another 50 years, federal agencies have been routinely selling biowarfare documents to researchers through the Internet and even over the telephone.

http://educate-yourself.org/cn/chemtrailsandvaccines14feb05.shtml

It's a perfect storm of woo and conspiracy theories! Chemtrails, vaccines, David Kelly, Mossad, dead microbiologists, and even Lee Harvey Oswald!

[TZ]

2. Once again we think alike

I really do think the last 7 years has encouraged this behavior. Its gonna take a major outbreak of something like birdflu,sadly to change attitudes in this country with re: anti-vax nuts.
I also refer to the internets as the disinformation highway.
The really depressing thing to me about the internet is the spread of woo. I was reading an article about Africa where anti-vax woo seems to be the worst among other things like HIV not causing AIDS..and a lot of the people who believe it are quoted as saying they learned about their "theories" on the internet...:banghead:

[Orrex]

9. I propose jabbing everyone with a rusty nail

Those who fear vaccination can take their chances with tetanus.

[realisticphish]

13. This may or may not be the place

but this is a "Libertarian Fan Fiction" that Something Awful Forums poster "Goatstein" wrote. Libs aren't always woos, but this has some of the anti-vax stuff in it...

King Hussein Obama I, flanked by his bodyguards, stepped out of his blinged Limoscalade and marched up the gold-lined marble steps of Washington Palace. It should have been a glorious day, yet under his heavy yet exquisite crown of carved human fetus-ivory his brow was ridged deeply as he silently brooded. Still, his posse, boomboxes on their shoulders, dance-walked up the steps, chains and gats jangling over the din as they grabbed their crotches.

As his trusted associates T-Von and Mook-Mook the Bushman pushed open the grand organic farm-grown cruelty-free redwood doors paid for by his 95% tax rate, he stepped into the antechamber of the gold-domed palace. Outside, ShariaVentalism reigned, but in here his word was law, and all his white teen sex slaves cowered before his glare more than even the hemp whips of their latte-drinking tweeded atheist masters.

He walked down the hallway toward his office and a prisoner in chains passed before him, lead by two turban-wearing Mexicans. He spotted the King and began shouting curses.

"You fucking fascist! I knew it! I knew it! I told them, but they wouldn't listen, that your health care platform was a slippery slope to all this! You won't get away with this! The will of the Free Market will not be denied!"
"Seelenceo een the prezence of the Keeng, preesoner!"

King Obama spotted a chance to improve his ill mood.

"Bring him here. Good. Give me his file." The king looked over the prisoner's dossier. A long list of crimes against the state, and a repeat offender.
"You'll never get away with this! Never!"
"Hush now, Mr. Jack. We have ways of dealing with unruly sorts such as yourself."
"Praise be to Allah, seenyor."
"Peh! I spit at your torture! The Free Market gives me strength!"
"Oh, no, not anything as gauche as that."

The King grabbed a syringe from the outstretched hand of one of his nearby breakdancing bodyguards, and plunged it into the man's helpless neck.

"Now you are immune to rubella."

Kyle's lingering, echoing screams of tormented horror brought a slight smile like a crack in Obama's stony brown face as he walked into his lavish velvet-lined office and shut the door behind him. He motioned for his bodyguards to leave the room, and he addressed the giant screens hanging over his desk.

"Screen one on. Connect to Emperor bin Laden of Eurabia. Screen two: Hugo Chavez of the U.S.S.A.R.. Screen three: The High Elder of Zion."

The three figures appeared live via satelite.

"Gentlemen," began Obama darkly, "it's time to have...a conversation."

[semillama]

35. I have no idea what to make of that

it sort of reads as a sarcastic commentary on the fears of right-wing libertarians in its racism, free market worship, and anti-vax sentiment.

But then again, maybe it's not supposed to be a commentary on the fears, but a commentary from them.

[realisticphish]

36. it's anti-libertarian

or, at least it's anti-"Ron Paul Libertarianism". it's mocking a particular poster ("Mr. Jack") who has a wide range of pretty strange beliefs. For a while, in one of the subforums that i lurk in, mocking libertarians was a full time job, mainly because of the massive Ron Paul support on the boards

[semillama]

37. Oh, good. Because in that context it's pretty funny. n/t

[TZ]

15. Don't tempt me.:)

How very Darwinian of you, Orrex....:D

[moggie]

3. I don't think this can be entirely blamed on the Bush admin

Certainly their war on science has encouraged unreason, but the process was well underway before 2000, and not only in the US. The anti-vaxers are quite virulent here in the UK, and consequently last year was the worst for measles cases since the introduction of the MMR vaccine.

I wish I knew the answer. The anti-vax movement shouldn't be viewed in isolation, of course: it's just one aspect of the retreat from reason and the privileging of emotion over rationality. Education has to be the key, but schools are doing a poor job of teaching critical thinking and science: and even when they try, there's only so much they can do without the support of the parents. The media seems to have largely given up on positive portrayals of science. My generation had the Apollo programme to help us along the way, but what is there today?

[trotsky]

4. You're definitely right.

The US has always been fertile ground for the anti-science, anti-establishment types. It all fits together so neatly with the PCTs of global conspiracies, mind control, etc. I wonder, did the US anti-vax movement inspire the UK, was it vice-versa, or was it independent? The fury with Wakefield and the MMR never really caught on here - thankfully.

it's just one aspect of the retreat from reason and the privileging of emotion over rationality

You said it all right there.

[enki23]

5. I don't know if "emotion vs. rationality" is quite right.

They're actually being more or less rational, in an unenlightened-self-interest sort of way. They're acting rationally (if, sometimes, selfishly) on bad information. One of the main problems we have now is that people don't have the ability to distinguish bad information from good. And the internet has given them access to vast stores of worthless, in many cases potentially harmful "information."

The problem has many dimensions, but I don't think we can overlook the fact that people have been told for a while now that they should question authority. Of course, willingness to do that is virtually essential for a functioning democracy. But that message has metastasized into something a little more aggressive. The message, all too often, is this: authority is almost always lying to you. If an authority says it, it's probably false. Many of us are taught not only to mistrust authority, but to actively disbelieve anything an authority might say.

We have drilled these ideas, the "question authority" mindset into people for a number of decades now. That sounds great. Only, we didn't put nearly as much effort into giving people the tools to do it effectively. If authority can't be trusted, then who can? Most people can't effectively answer that question for themselves. They don't have the tools to do it. How could they weigh the evidence without at least a modicum of critical thinking skills? And remember, many, many people out there don't have the intellectual capacity to do that. What percentage of them that is, I don't know. But it isn't a small number. Not only do people lack critical thinking skills, or capacity, but some subjects are just really damned difficult, complicated. For some problems, critical thinking alone may not be good enough to effectively evaluate the evidence. Some subjects require quite a lot of specialized knowledge, and broad knowledge to do that. It's the old blind-men-and-the-elephant problem. But then, who can you trust to have that knowledge and not abuse it? Who do *you* trust?

The answer most people would give, if they were honest, is that they trust other people who seem think like them. In some people's cases, that means they trust those who are actively anti-authority. They have, in effect, changed authorities. The new authorities, however, are defined by the position they take rather than any expertise they might have. The new authorities are people who tell you what you already believe: that everyone in the government and in industry is lying to you almost all the time. If you want people to swallow your bullshit, just preface it with something about perfidious government and lying industry. If government thinks you're wrong, then you are obviously right. Q.E.D. Of course, government lies and corporate malfeasance are quite real and quite common, and that doesn't fucking help. So what are people without their own specialized training to do? They want to question everything, but they don't even know what questions to ask. And they wouldn't know a reasonable answer if it bit them on the ass. Especially when, all too often, we don't even *have* a firm answer to their questions. Or the answer we have is just too complicated to understand. It's a lot easier to understand "they're lying to you." Buy this colloidal silver and everything will be alright.

So, now, if you have some knowledge of a subject, and you want to educate people, the ability to show you have actual expertise in the area can be completely worthless (if not outright harmful) for many people in your intended audience. I, for one, don't have a fucking clue what to do about that.

[trotsky]

6. That's what I love about this group.

Everyone brings up great points.

the ability to show you have actual expertise in the area can be completely worthless (if not outright harmful) for many people in your intended audience

That's so sad but true. "Oh, you've worked in the industry? Or done research in a university? You BIG PHARMA SHILL!!!11!1"

[Orrex]

8. Great points re: authority

For purposes of this discussion, I think that we can distinguish two basic types: authority based (rightly) upon expertise and authority based (wrongly) upon circumstance.

The former includes, for example, academics and real scientists, and anyone whose arguments stand on their own. The authorities themselves need not be questioned, because the authorities are themselves irrelevant; the strength of their arguments doesn't depend upon who they are or what they've done. The arguments should be examined and assessed on their merits.

The latter includes victims and propagandists and anyone whose arguments appeal to emotion in the absence of evidence. These "authorities" should always be questioned, because their arguments are inextricably bound to their personalities. This group also includes victims of circumstance who are thereafter considered experts on those circumstances (parents of autistic children, 9/11 survivors, etc.)

Obviously, it's possible that the former will have bad arguments, and it's possible that the latter will have good ones.

The problem IMO is that people who "question authority" have failed to distinguish between one and the other. This is the height of folly and intellectual laziness.


Maddeningly, the conservative mindset--with its adoration of the father figure--is unlikely to question weak rhetoric offered by a dubious authority but will dismiss outright any rational argument made by an authority whom they've been encourage to disregard or ridicule.

More maddeningly, many liberals who claim to be individualist free-thinkers equally fail to see the distinction, and they are equally quick to attack real authorities (physicians, etc.) and to worship dubious ones (famed thimerosal researcher RFK Jr., the "Loose Change" guys, etc.).

[realisticphish]

10. i think the "question authority" attitude is the problem

sure, we should NEVER just take what supposed authorities say at face value; we should always retain our critical thinking skills. The problem is when that attitude leads to a kneejerk reactionary position. "What? Academia says this? Than I think that." "The government says it was terrorists? Must have been the government." Whatever "they" say is a lie, and the opposite is the whole and unassailable Truth.

[TZ]

11. What I don't get is this:

We all know they scream about corporations not doing "real science". Yet when academic institutions show similar results its..well they must get their funding from corporations..Yet any scientist that posts here about Global Warming or Evolution is taken at face value.
While people like me (who have both private and academic experience) are loathed.
I think the double standard of acceptable science is what really infuriates me, here.
The woos really are like RW fundies..they only listen to what they believe is the truth.
Good science: Global Warming, Evolutionary studies, anything that lends support to the possibility of extraterrestrials
Evul science: anything with genetics, health, medicine, goes agaisnt the paranormal ect.

[realisticphish]

12. woos are lefty fundies

no doubt about that. Though lefty fundies are FAR more varied: the environmentalists, animal rights, anti vax, CAM, paranormal, etc.

edit: not to say that the first two are bad or anything, but everyone can admit that those two have extreme fundies in the movement

[trotsky]

14. It's interesting to compare/contrast the overlap between rightie woos and leftie woos.

Both buy into anti-vax. It's not uncommon for rightie woos to swallow the 9/11 crap too.

But global warming? Climatologists bashed by righties, embraced by lefties.
And I think the CAM crap is embraced more by lefties than righties.

What others do they part ways on?

[lizerdbits]

25. The only "Real Science" is what supports what they already believe

Everything else is flawed. It's black and white for them (the hallmark of extremism): you either distrust all medical professionals or you're a big pharma employee who wants everyone to take your new drug so your stock options get better.

Ultimately they will lose because their genes will die out in disease outbreaks that kill their kids if we dip below herd protection. In pre vaccination/no medical care days you had to have about 10 kids to get a few to survive to adult hood. Unless they start cranking them out their genes aren't going very far. Harsh and possibly cruel way to look at it but it might not be that far off. I'm up to date on/have good titers for everything (except polio, I should probably get a titer done) that was available when I was a kid.

[trotsky]

26. About that giggly word.

All the vaccination scuffles have made me think I should get myself checked. Can I just walk in to my doctor's office and request titers for various diseases? Is that usually covered by insurance?

[TZ]

27. I would think so.

You are probably due for some like pertussis which is no longer considered valid in adults..
Titers are to see if the vaccines are still good..Hep B, Hep A. ect...I would think it would be covered but you should check with your company.
Here is a link to recommended adult vaccinations:
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/recs/schedules/adult-schedule.htm#print

[lizerdbits]

28. The reason I'm glad to be up to date

is a couple years ago I was diagnosed with walking pneumonia. I was coughing so hard I was almost throwing up and my mom said that sounded like whooping cough (pertussis). I wasn't diagnosed with that (they just listened to me try to breathe and gave me antibiotics) but I hadn't been vaccinated in about 30 years so it's a possibility. It's also possible that since I was a smoker at the time that just made it worse, so who knows. I got a DTap earlier this year at a work physical since I hadn't had a tetanus shot in over 10 years. I should ask about polio since a lab down the hall does occasionally work with it and it's been over 30 years since that one. I'll check teh evul CDC recommendations since they all profit from vaccines directly and would love my insurance to shell out a couple bucks for a booster. :eyes:

[moggie]

17. Not everyone can be questioned equally easily

The erosion of automatic deference to people in positions of power (which is mostly a good thing) makes it easy to doubt and question those with real credentials. But we've learned to almost sanctify victims. Contradicting the "research" of the parent of an autistic child seems damn rude; by extension, any journalist who appears to stand up for those victims acquires some of their unassailability. I wish education did a better job of giving people tools which could help counteract that:

• Better knowledge of how science is done would allow people to understand how, despite its flaws, it's the best method yet devised for arriving at true knowledge about the world. I suspect that, to most people, science is just a big pile of facts and opinions, concluded who-knows-how, so why shouldn't an idea plucked out of thin air be equally valid?
  
• A better understanding of statistics would shoot down a lot of the nonsense.
  
• Vast conspiracies mostly don't work. The more people who need to be "in the know", the more likely the conspiracy is to collapse. This ought to be common sense, but perhaps better teaching of history would get the point across. Good history teaching could also lead to a better assessment of the reliability of sources (why should I trust RFK? What's his track record so far?)
  
• It's surprising how often the conclusions of an article aren't supported by the arguments it has presented, and how many people simply don't spot that. Logic, and plain old reading for comprehension, can be taught.
  

[trotsky]

18. The extent of anti-vax conspiracies is mind-boggling.

Basically you've got:

A) Every pharmaceutical company, along with every single one of their executives, researchers, research assistants, hell even janitors.
B) Every governmental health agency of every country.
C) Every elected official.
D) Every research professor, grad student, and undergrad lackey at every drug-researching university.
E) Just about everyone else.

They're ALL part of a giant corporate conspiracy to kill the remaining 16 people who aren't part of the conspiracy, dammit!

[moggie]

19. Janitors?

What, like turtlensue? :evilgrin:

[trotsky]

20. Oooooh, I am so totally getting out of this thread now.

You asked for it. :spank:

[TZ]

21. HA!

You actually beat me too it...:rofl:

[moggie]

16. Good question

I don't recall much vaccination controversy here before Wakefield, but you certainly see UK anti-vaxers citing US websites. The Internet has internationalised woo, but the population difference alone probably means that the flow is mostly US to UK.

[muriel_volestrangler]

33. There was a lot about the whooping cough (pertussis) vaccine

in the 70s and 80s supposedly causing brain damage - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pertussis#Whole-cell_pertussis_vaccine_controversy . Perhaps you're too young to remember, and I ought to be too, but my father was a GP, and I remember him talking about the harm that whooping cough could do to unvaccinated children.

[chicagomd]

7. 80%

That is the % of the population that must be vaccinated or it game over and we are at risk for all vaccine preventable diseases. It is higher for some, obviously. At around 90% pertussus and measles are going to make a serious comeback. Around 85% brings us back to the world of polio. We were doing well up until 2004. We should start to see the impact of the recent vaccine fear in the next few years.

I hope there are some smart lawyers out there getting their wrongful death suits ready for the Geiers, Kirby, and Kennedy.

Source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity
http://www.who.int/vaccines/globalsummary/immunization/countryprofileresult.cfm

[WoodrowFan]

22. Bush?

I think it's more likely that the RW "war on science" is another symptom of the same type of sloppy thinking that leads to left-wing antivax hysteria.

[Pale Blue Dot]

23. How can you beat Jenny McCarthy?

Even I was tempted to switch sides when I heard that Jenny knows the truth.

[chicagomd]

24. How can you beat Jenny McCarthy?

Do I get a choice of physical implements? Facts sure as hell don't seem to work.

[lizerdbits]

29. ...

:spray: :rofl:

[realisticphish]

30. lol

:thumbsup:

[varkam]

31. Bwahaha!

:rofl:

[LeftishBrit]

34. Set Big Yak on her!

[lizerdbits]

38. I just couldn't resist posting this

I'm googling something on embryonated chicken eggs for work and find this stunning gem.

http://www.vegsource.com/talk/raw/messages/99927701.html

Is stupefied a word? I'm too stupefied, or something, to comment much.

"The Hygienic theory of the development of influenza is the antithesis of medical orthodoxy. Physicians believe the disease is due to various and numerous bacteria or viruses. Hygienists realize that the development of any disease is dependent on the lifestyle of the individual. Hygienists live in such a clean manner that their bodies retain no excess toxins and their Defense Mechanisms are in perfect condition!

It is impossible to prevent disease by artificial means. You are a living creature and your body will develop disease when the physical, mental and environmental conditions are so unsatisfactory they force the body to initiate an acute elimination crisis, such as influenza--which, if cared for properly, is not the dreaded disease as pictured by the purveyors of vaccinations. Vaccines add to the toxicity of the body and hence, cause disease. You can't make a healthy person a sick one unless you overwhelm him with poisons. And vaccines are poisons!"

Um, what?

"So many different viruses and bacteria supposedly cause influenza that it is a wonder people don’t see that there is something wrong here! How can one be artificially immune to any disease when hundreds of different viruses and bacteria “cause” the same disease?"

Actually influenza is caused by influenza A, influenza B, or much less likely influenza C. Other microbes may cause similar symptoms but not influenza.

It's quite a strange read.

[TZ]

39. jeebus

How long has germ theory been accepted? Might as well have said the demons cause illness...:wtf:

[WoodrowFan]

40. Alas

Alas, stupidity isn't (normally) painful..

[trotsky]

41. Wow. That's industrial-grade stupidity right there.

What a loon.

[onager]

42. Sneaky pop-culture reference

Did anyone else catch the 7-hour HBO mini-series John Adams?

In one sequence, a smallpox epidemic is raging in Boston. Abigail Adams is determined to have her children vaccinated. Since the hypodermic hadn't been invented, vaccination required cutting into the patient with a scalpel. And transferring into the cut material taken from the pustules of a living smallpox patient.

The whole process is shown in gory detail.

That was fascinating, and I was thinking of the Dee-Yoo Woo-Woos as I watched it. Maybe the era of the smallpox epidemic is coming back. Another victory over Evil $cience and Big Pharma, hallelujah and thank you (insert name of chosen deity here)!

The whole series is a good corrective to all the right-wing hagiography about the founding of America. What! You mean the Founders DIDN'T receive the Declaration Of Independence carved in stone directly from the hands of Gawd?

As a Fundamentalist Atheist, one of my favorite scenes is when Jefferson, Adams and Ben Franklin are editing the Declaration. In his original draft, at one point Jefferson uses the phrase "We hold these truths to be sacred..."

Franklin grumbles that this "smacks of the pulpit" and immediately changes the wording to "self-evident."

When Adams goes to Paris and wants to learn French, Franklin (somewhat ironically played by the great British actor Tom Wilkinson) gives him some straight-forward advice: "Take a mistress."

I'd always heard that the question came from John Paul Jones, and Franklin answered a little more slyly: "Get yourself a sleeping dictionary."

[lizerdbits]

43. I hope that is on Netflix at some point

I don't pay for HBO since it's double what I pay now and includes another 30 channels I'd never watch. I'd like to see it though.

Just to be a dork, the smallpox vaccine is given with a bifurcated needle, not hypodermic. I think they jab you 15 times for your first one and fewer times for the ones I have to get every 3 years for working with orthopoxviruses.

[onager]

44. Thanks. I learn the most amazing stuff on DU.

It's been a long time since I had that vaccination. Working overseas, I have to take a whole menu of shots every time I return to the US. Make sure everything is up to date, etc.

That makes me wonder how the anti-vax 'woos cope with travel. Some countries want to see a shot record along with your passport. I assume they don't let you in without them, but I don't know for sure.

Once when I worked in Saudi Arabia, I was in the U.S. preparing to go back to The Magic Kingdom. Our in-country office called and said there had been a disease outbreak during the pilgrimage season at Mecca. Saudi Customs was checking shot records as people got off the airplanes. And if you didn't have the right shots, Saudi soldiers were giving injections right on the spot.

Fortunately I was in Los Angeles, so finding a doctor who could give me the shots was fairly easy. No way I wanted a Saudi soldier injecting me.

Here in Egypt, I've had injections and blood tests. No different from any other place.

Netflix should get the Adams series. It's very slow-paced and I'm amazed it got made at all. Tom Hanks' production company was behind it, so that might have had some influence.

[TZ]

45. They get wavers for some places I think on "religious grounds"

There is a measles outbreak in this country which has been tracked to strains commonly found overseas hmm...And I believe Great Britian has had a problem with unvaccinated travellers bringing back Typhoid from other countries.