What the fuck is this shit?

[John Gauger]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=214x173543

I suspect that the aim of this thread is to bait skeptics into disagreeing, so that they can cry that we are antagonizing and persecuting them. While I do not wish to do so, I cannot help but think of a rational explanation for every one of these supposed paranormal events. Take the OP's, for example: knowing him, my first instinct is to say that he fabricated the story outright. Further, it happened many years ago, and the story may have changed significantly, especially considering that the players are both children. Or it may have been fabricated many years ago, but since become a "real" memory, as has been shown to happen. Lastly, even if everything he described happened exactly as he claimed it did, nothing there was impossible, just unlikely, so I don't see how the event qualifies as "supernatural," unless you have a profound misunderstanding of probability. Further, since it only happened once, it is not duplicable, and thus means precisely dick as a phenomenon.

Anyhow, it's a nice little superstitious circle-jerk they've got going.

[TZ]

1. Oh I'm sure its an attempt

To prove the fundamentalist attitude that poster believes in prevalent here. He posts a "rational" thread with the hope of proving his damned theory. I like the swipe he took at the Skeptics group here. Obviously that kind of thread is best suited for the Astrology Spirituality and Alternative Healing group (which he is well aware of).
I bet he thinks the "clique" is gonna show up. Notice I have not posted. That person's motives are very clear to me.

[onager]

2. He better be careful, asking for...

..."supernatural" experiences in the Religion forum. The two things have nothing in common. Neither do ice and water.

[Warpy]

3. It's the usual thing we've come to expect

from certain posters.

Best thing to do with threads like this one is let them be as crazy as they want to be.

[uberllama42]

4. There is zero doubt in my mind that he is baiting us

His behavior is atrocious in R/T, and having read his posts in the 9/11 forum, there is clearly a pattern. I also like how one of the other posters (the "low-level scientist" guy) ignored my polite request for evidence of his claims about Einsteinian physics and then expressed his reluctance to participate in another thread for fear of being dog-piled by fundamentalists.

The only proper response to Poster X is to ignore him. DNFTT.

Actually, I saw a cool graphic for that the other day. It might have been in GDP.

[Warpy]

5. I threw this into my Journal so I can reference it

in the future. It's the one thing the guy hasn't had some facile answer to.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Warpy

I think I've got his number. I don't need to engage him any more.

[moggie]

6. An attempt to draw more people into the fray

Presumably he's not satisfied with the number of people complaining about mean atheists, so he wants atheists to dispute the cherished ideas of another set of people. It's "let's you and him fight".

[jberryhill]

7. Meh...

If something hasn't happened to you for which you have no explanation, then you aren't paying attention.

But then again, I don't expect to have an explanation for every subjective experience of mine either, so I guess I don't get the point.

[realisticphish]

9. this afternoon

the mail was delivered, and I CAN'T EXPLAIN WHY

I mean, did i see the mailman? no. Did I hear him? no. Do I know it was a him at all? no. DOES HE EVEN EXIST????

[jberryhill]

12. There were 999,999 amazing coincidences which didn't happen to me yesterday

But the millionth one-in-a-million thing DID happen.

[onager]

8. In that thread, daring somebody to post the Subject line...

And there was a HOOK hanging on the door handle!!!

:rofl:

That's all the thread is: a bunch of people telling spooky stories, like kids sitting around the fire at summer camp. With overtones of "I can top that!" and "My karma has more horsepower than your karma because I see dead people."

I was LMAO reading through it.

Note for our foreign readers: I suspect every culture has a "hook" story, but the American version goes something like this: A teen couple is out parking on a lonely road. The radio interrupts the make-out music with a news bulletin about a deranged killer who has esacaped from jail/the nuthouse. The killer is known as "The Hook" because one of his hands has been amputated. The girl becomes frightened and demands that they leave RIGHT NOW. The boy, angry, revs up the car and drives away very fast. When he gets home and goes around to open the girl's door, he finds a hook hanging on...etc.

I think its original purpose was to scare teen-agers out of parking on lonely roads. That worked about as well as you'd expect. So now it's used to frighten children, but they have to be very YOUNG children.

If you don't see me for a few days: I'll be out of Egypt on vacation for the next 8 days (Vienna/Prague). But I shall return!

[uberllama42]

10. I'd never actually heard the story before

Who would let a vicious killer have a hook in prison? Or did he just happen to find one after he broke out? Maybe the warden at the jail had the hook somewhere, and the killer had to get it back on his way out. Even that isn't very plausible, though. What, are they just waiting for him to bust the joint and take it back? Why would they have it on-site? If he didn't have it in the cell with him, would he really feel it's that necessary to have it? Maybe I'm attributing too much rationality to an escaped murderer.

Furthermore, why would he try to open the car door with his hook? If I liked to kill people, and had been denied the pleasure during a long stint behind bars, I would be eager to get to my victim as quickly possible. I wouldn't mess around opening the door with a stupid hook. That's what my good hand is for. The hook is for goring victims. Just because you're an amputee doesn't mean you're stupid. The story is completely unfeasible.

This is why I didn't have any friends until I was nine years old.

[TZ]

11. I've never heard that one either

The big spooky story I grew up with was the "golden arm"...Are you familiar with that one?
http://myrant-skinnylittleblonde.blogspot.com/2006/10/golden-arm-revisitedonce-is-never.html
Enjoy your vacation, btw.

[onager]

13. Now I never heard that one...

Thanks for the vacation wishes! Just got here. Have no clue where I am. Or where I'm going. Never been here before.

But I'll figure it out. So...(insert HI smiley) from Vienna.

[Orrex]

14. In my experience

Woos simply don't accept the notion that they've got to document/substantiate their crazy tales. Instead, they demand that the skeptic either explain every perceived phenomenon or else prove that the phenomenon isn't supernatural, and their requirements of "proof" are more ridiculous than those of the esteemed Dr. Kent Hovind.

Also, I hate having to debunk every latest "corpse whisperer" to come down the pike. If a gag is 99% identical to a gag that's been disproven a million times before, I'm not going to waste my time and start from scratch to debunk John Edward or James van Praagh or whoever, because it's redundant, and it's an unreasonable burden to place upon the skeptic. After all, the believer should be able to prove his or her case, no?

However, this line of reasoning is invariably identified as a retreat from/forefeiture of the argument.

It must be so easy to be a credulous, unquestioning believer...

[CanSocDem]

15. Back at ya....

"It must be so easy to be a credulous, unquestioning believer..."

That's funny. I was going to say the same thing about the dis-believers that have given up their curiosity for a few pat answers. What's amazing about this forum is that many posters would rather stand on those 'pat' answers than look beyond the obvious.

I'm pretty sure there are things out there beyond your comprehension, but you won't even accept that....
It must be easy accepting everything you see without even asking yourself simple questions. For example, is hypnosis a science...and why isn't it more widely used??? Are christians uncomfortable with it....????

http://www.mindbodyhypnosis.com/medical_hypnosis.htm


"...prove that the phenomenon isn't supernatural, and their requirements of "proof" are more ridiculous than..."

Just tell me if it is a "science" or not....I'm easy!

[TZ]

16. I've never not heard a scientist not say "I don't know"

Nor express the idea that there are things that they aren't curious about. Most people here know there are things that haven't/can't be explained by science and it does make us curious, but we aren't also likely to accept pat answers like--If I see a light in the sky it must be a alien! Or if I can't explain something in quantuum mechanics it must be proof of god!
Skeptics don't take things on faith, or jump to conclusions based on feelings or wants or desires.
Would I like to meet an alien? Sure.
Do I think intelligent life exists in the universe outside of here. Of course.
Do I think aliens have visited here? I don't think so, I haven't seen enough unbiased data to believe that.
You should read Carl Sagan. He had a wonderful thirst for knowledge of the universe but didn't let that lose sight of how the universe works and what is unlikely. Skeptics are evidence based exploreers and to say we aren't curious is a total misnomer.

[salvorhardin]

19. Remember

This poster believes that the ill and disabled are hurting because they want to be sick. You can't argue against that level of sophistry.

[cosmik debris]

17. Do you really know anyone like that,

Or are you just trading in stereotypes?


"...dis-believers that have given up their curiosity for a few pat answers. What's amazing about this forum is that many posters would rather stand on those 'pat' answers than look beyond the obvious."

I've never even heard of a dis-believer like that.

[Orrex]

18. I'm happy to bet that more things are beyond my comprehension than are beyond yours

Yet somehow I still don't retreat into the soft, meaningless answer that "it's supernatural."

The difference between a rational, scientific person and the credulous, unquestioning person can be illustrated this way:

RSP: "I don't know why X happens; let's investigate further and see what we come up with. In the meantime, let's make our best guess and proceed from there until we can refine our answer."

CUP: "I don't know why X happens; it must be supernatural."


Really, it's that simple. One approach increases our understanding; one does not.

[CanSocDem]

20. Moving on...

Let's see if any of you will declare "hypnosis" a science; we can move on if we're all on the same page.


.

[TZ]

21. there is some evidence that hypnosis does happen

Its not what I call an exact science but there does seem to be a genuine psychological aspect to it. However its really not like what most people believe it where you can be tricked into acting like a chicken or duck or some such.
What it does seem to be is a state of extreme relaxation that allows the person to focus on changing ingrained habits to some extent
(like smoking, helping with phobias etc)

[CanSocDem]

23. It 'happened'...

...to a good friend of mine in HS. A hypnotist came to town, my friend volunteered and turned out to be a good subject so he was in for the show....or rather 'being' part of the show.

Anyway, the hypnotist gave him a pair of clear lens eyeglasses and told him they were X-Ray 'spec's, could see through clothes etc. but my friend is already off the stage, with the faux glasses, a big silly grin and checking out the girls in the front row. When he came to a large over-weight bald man( who also happened to be one of the towns' leading citizens) he actually fell on the floor laughing. He didn't want to give back the glasses when the hypnotist tried to spare him further embarrassment.

The last suggestion from the hypnotist, mercifully, was "You won't remember any of this!"

He didn't.

"What it does seem to be is a state of extreme relaxation that allows the person to focus on changing ingrained habits to some extent..."

From what I understand it is all about "focus".

We live in a culture that considers distraction a virtue so it isn't a surprise that we miss a lot by not focusing.

None-the-less, I'm always surprised by the general lack of acceptance of hypnotherapy even though it has proven itself at every level. It's almost as if you would rather support a system that trades in health rather than one that actually produces it....

Of course it means taking responsibility for our own health that a lot of people would just as soon blame someone or something else.

Eventually, people will realize that they have to get personally involved in all aspects of their lifestyle. They will change their community to make it healthy and sustainable. They will force industry to quit short-changing them on the quality of air, food, water and work.

The people rule, but it starts with the individual.

[cosmik debris]

22. Science:

Science, in the broadest sense, refers to any system of knowledge which attempts to model objective reality. In a more restricted sense, science refers to a system of acquiring knowledge based on the scientific method, as well as to the organized body of knowledge gained through such research.

Judging from the web site you referenced, hypnosis is a service for sale, not a system of knowledge.

Perhaps you would be kind enough to explain how hypnosis is or is not a system of knowledge or of acquiring knowledge?

[varkam]

24. Hypnosis isn't a science, it's a phenomenon.

Calling hypnosis a science is just careless usage of language. By all accounts, there is an actual phenomenon known as hypnosis that is most readily defined as a state of heightened suggestibility. I've also heard it described as sort of an implicit agreement between subject and actor more along social psychological lines than anything else.

The data, though, on using hypnosis to correct a number of conditions is quite mixed at best (at least as far as I am aware). In addition, there are certain forms of hypnosis that are termed "age regression techniques" that are used to "recover" lost memories from childhood - although the data seems to indicate that these are not lost memories but rather iatrogentically induced memories.

[Orrex]

26. Hypnosis certainly exists but bears little resemblance to science

The phenomenon identified as the "hypnotic trance" has not been conclusively demonstrated to exist as it is described, namely an altered state of consciousness wherein the subject is much more readily suggestible. There is, in fact, considerable evidence indicating that the "trance" is a learned response, in that the subject "knows" how he or she is supposed to respond, and does so.


For the record, I was likewise hypnotized during a demonstration way back in high school. It was a lot of fun, but so was the Pink Floyd laser show that they put on for us three weeks later.

[TZ]

27. Did they make you cluck like a chicken?

Heh--I can just imagine....:evilgrin:

[Orrex]

30. No, I did that of my own free will, thanks.

The hypnotist told me that, when I came out of my "trance," I would urgently want to borrow his glasses. He also informed me that they were special X-Ray glasses, making everyone in the auditorium appear to be naked.

Hell, I was a senior in high school; I spent much of my time imagining about half of the student body naked anyway, so what was the difference?

In the spirit of things, I played along. Convincingly. No one who later spoke to me about my experience had any reason to doubt that it had been genuine; one girl even complained that I'd stared at her "nakedness" for an unseemly amount of time.

So, no. It didn't "really" happen, but I was on a stage, and people were expecting a certain response, and so I responded.

My experience doesn't, in itself, prove that the "hypnotic trance" doesn't exist, but it does demonstrate that people can act as if they're in a trance convicingly enough to make the audience believe it. Heck, the "hypnotized" person might even believe it him/herself!

[WoodrowFan]

43. I saw that same show

I saw that same show in High School back in the mid 70s. it was fake? Awwwwww, damn it.

[John Gauger]

41. "Hypnosis" is not a science.

Biology, cosmology, planetary astronomy, are all sciences. Hypnosis is a phenomenon. I think you should find out what the word science means before you use it.

[lizerdbits]

25. Given up on curiosity?????

Science continues to give answers to questions. If we'd given up on curiosity those of us in the field of science wouldn't be in science. That's the best part. It would almost be sad to have all the answers, there would be nothing left to discover. Well except for medicine to be able to cure or effectively treat any disease, but in that case you would have to believe that physical ailments aren't all due to not being in the correct reality. Stupid kids with cancer, what's wrong with them? :sarcasm:

[CanSocDem]

28. Yes...

" It would almost be sad to have all the answers, there would be nothing left to discover. Well except for medicine to be able to cure or effectively treat any disease, but in that case you would have to believe that physical ailments aren't all due to not being in the correct reality. "

Your sarcasm notwithstanding, I'm the only one posting positive ideas about treating illness. The rest of you are insisting that most diseases are incurable and those that have them need our sympathy, NOT OUR HELP.

If you are a health scientist, you are part of the problem.

In the 70's Dr. Sidney Wolfe wrote a heavily researched book called 650 Pills That Don't Work. That is just a primer on your medical system.


.

[lizerdbits]

29. How do you propose people decide to cure genetic diseases?

If a person doesn't produce a compound or a properly functioning enzyme/protein how does the mind fix that? You are obviously clueless about basic cell biology if you think that the mind can fix genetic mutations. You aren't posting positive ideas about treating illness, you're posting like someone who's stoned out of their mind. Perhaps that explains your alternative reality.

[CanSocDem]

31. If I thought 'basic cell biology'....

...was what I needed to know about in order to stay healthy, I would read all about it and come back here and dazzle you with my ignorance. But I don't.

I would have been dead or severely handicapped by now if I didn't have the beliefs I have now. They work for me and I understand how they can work for you...

Blowing me off as a saturday nite stoner doesn't make you sound too bright; but I can understand how much you have invested in your 'belief system'...which is all it is.


.

[TZ]

33. If you're system works so well..

I'd be glad to get a vial of Ebola and expose you..Lets see how your "beliefs" deal with bleeding out of every orifice.
People like you have obviously never travelled out of the country and seen what its like where health care is non existant.
Edit: of course I am being sarcastic, but Ebola is damn near 100% fatal and I would like to know how someone can "believe" their way out of a deadly virus.

[CanSocDem]

34. You would have trouble....

....with Ebola because you have already declared it "...damn near 100% fatal...".

If my subconcious plan for this life didn't include 'dying by virus' and I didn't have you there freaking me out, I'd probably resist Ebola.


.

[TZ]

39. Of course I would know what I was infected with right away

DUH. And of course all those people in Reston, Va just knew that they could find a new strain of Ebola in the air in the 80's, which while 100% lethal to monkeys didn't hurt people at all. Those monkeys must of wished for death right?
Anyway, whats the point of you trolling this forum except to be offensive. You keep saying you "don't want to offend" but every nonsense post you put up is offensive, and if you think you are going to reform our "misguided beliefs" with your trite and nasty attitude, you are sadly mistaken.

[CanSocDem]

42. It would be you....

....who got me here in the first place with your ridiculous thread about western medicine.

"... You keep saying you "don't want to offend" but every nonsense post you put up is offensive, and if you think you are going to reform our "misguided beliefs" with your trite and nasty attitude, you are sadly mistaken."

I am the worst enemy of free-market medicine and I will take every opportunity to promote self-healing as a completely available and achievable ALTERNATIVE/woo.

I'm far more interested in the sociology of medicine than I am in the "science" of medicine. In my experience, it is more influential in the overall goal of public health. If this is too complicated for the regulars here, then of course I have no interest in staying.

I must have misread the title of the group...."Skepticism...." Not here.

Anyway, I'll continue looking for that elusive American, not in state of denial.....

[TZ]

45. It also SAYS SCIENCE AND PSUEDOSCIENCE

And as a purveyor of PSEUDOSCIENCE of the worst sort...you belong in the alternative healing group (even that group might find you wacky).
I suggest you READ the mission statement of this group.
Skepticism, since you don't seem to understand, has to do with the rejection of the irrational and unproven, not skepticism of well proven and WELL documented scientifically sound principles.
BTW, there is someone on this board with cervical cancer, who is doing very well with her chemo treatments and I think if you pushed this issue in front of her in real life, you would not like the consequences.

[lizerdbits]

35. LOL!

Please enlighten us all as to how the mind can alter the nucleotide sequence in our cells. This is my impression of what you are saying is that you can decide to not be ill. How can people with something like cystic fibrosis decide to alter their nucleotide sequence to start producing normal CTFR? If both parents are carriers do they need to concentrate harder to not pass the mutation on to their children?

Science isn't really a belief system. It's a system designed to produce evidence in controlled studies that can be debated and later revised or discarded based on more evidence. We have confidence in that system because it is self correcting- when evidence is produced that contradicts previous conclusions the previous conclusions are revised or rejected based on additional evidence. I guess it's too hard for some people to understand so that's why they turn to woo.

[CanSocDem]

36. What you don't understand...

...is that your belief system includes all your measuring devices and supporting evidence. It convinces you, not me.


.

[lizerdbits]

37. You don't believe in genetic mutations?

And don't believe they cause disease? I'd still like you to elaborate on how people can decide to alter their genetic code that produces malfunctioning proteins. I suspect your response will be more fantasy.

[Orrex]

40. You're a delusional hypocrite

If you're typing at a keyboard, you're clearly content to embrace the advances of science when they suit you.

[TZ]

32. vaccines? gene therapy?

Cancer survivors from chemo/radiation therapy? Not all disease is incurable. Chronic disease is different.
Anti-biotics.
I guess all those peasants died form the black plague cause they wanted to die. Now we can cure the plague with antibiotics.
Anti-virals treat viral diseases quite well. No cure...so laughable
Small Pox? Guess all those native americans wanted to die to make way for the white settlers...:sarcasm:

[mr blur]

38. Have you stopped taking your medication, or something?

"I'm pretty sure there are things out there beyond your comprehension, but you won't even accept that...."

Just because they're beyond our comprehension/current understanding, doesn't mean that their explanations have to be based on fantasy and Woo

"It must be easy accepting everything you see without even asking yourself simple questions."

Well, you seem to be the one doing that, don't you?

[Random_Australian]

44. Ok, I'll bite.

"I'm pretty sure there are things out there beyond your comprehension, but you won't even accept that...."

You seem to forget that us folks actually taking the time to learn this stuff tend to learn things that were previously beyond our comprehension all the damn time.

"is hypnosis a science"

Hmmmmm, I'm going to have to answer your question with a question that is equally stupid: Is hypnosis a grammar?


Just tell me if it is a "grammar" or not....I'm easy!

In other words, the way you've phrased the question makes no sense. It's been obvious to science for a long time that the brain can be fooled, and that lots of different inputs create lots of different outputs.

In other words, it is indeed rational to believe that there are various things which you can do to get people to behave in different ways and experience different things. For the limits, please check peer-reviewed literature. If you want to know if a journal has sufficiently high standards, check with the APA (I think).

[TZ]

46. Nice

But remember the peer reviewed journals are all based on the "outdated belief system" of science according to this poster. You know, because all those doctors and scientists are telling people they are ill when they are perfectly healthy!:sarcasm:
Sorry, a bit bitter that an ignorant person decided he had to disprove my experience at the Mayo clinic with his pollyanna woo.