Children and influenza vaccines

[TZ]

So I have a question for those skeptics with children. My company makes influenza vaccines, and just got in their shipments for this fall, record early. They are running a campaign simultaneously with the election to raise awareness of the importance of vaccinating children. To that end they commissioned an interesting study that showed that although 8 of 10 parents are aware of flu vaccines, only 44% have ever had their child vaccinated.
Putting aside insurance/cost issues (which MIGHT be an influence) those of you with children..do you get your kids vaccinated for the flu? Why or why not?

FYI, if anyone is interested in the survey/information/promotion (which will be advertised in Denver during the convention) you can PM me for the link. I'd rather not have my name publically linked to my place of employment.

[cosmik debris]

1. I was a child when it first became available in my home town.

We made a family affair out of it with everyone in the family lining up for shots at the doctor's office.

My daughter also got shots regularly until she moved away from home.

Why? Because the flu sucks. Really!

[beam me up scottie]

2. I remember my mom dragging me down to my little brother's school to get our shots.

I had asthma as a kid and my parents agreed it was very important for me to get the vaccine.

[rexcat]

3. Sorry to say...

our kids have not received any flu vaccines. I suppose I will need to discuss this with my wife since the nasal vaccine has been very effective for people under 50 years of age. As a clinical microbiologist I should probably know better concerning the flu vaccine. I have had the flu several times over the course of my life and they were not pleasant experiences.

They are current on all other vaccines as recommended by their pediatrician. The only vaccine they did not get was the Varicella vaccine (chickenpox). When they were little I was working with several sites who had done some of the clinical trials for the vaccine and they were not sure if the vaccine was not worth it. One got chickenpox and had a mild case but his twin ended up with a severe case. We were up with him for four nights because his symptoms were so bad. The boys were not happy this year for their annual pediatrician visit. Mom said they were not due for any shots and they ended up getting the meningococcal vaccine. Other than a little soreness at the injection site nothing of consequence happened to them as far as reactions went. When I was working in hospitals many years ago I saw several kids come into the hospital after more than 24 hours of symptoms and they both died from meningococcal related septic shock.

[dropkickpa]

4. Dropkid gets hers yearly

She is also fondly referred to as "The outbreak monkey". Partly because the flu sucks, partly because my mom's health is poor enough that the flu would really do a number on her, and now partly because a classmate of hers is a liver transplant recipient and I want to do what I can to help protect him.

[trotsky]

16. Well that's just wrong.

You actually *care* about others enough to take a minuscule risk?

Why on earth would anyone do that? :sarcasm:

Proud of ya, dk.

[MannyGoldstein]

5. Thor Always Gets His Flu Shot

More than 20,000 people die from the flu each year. It's bad stuff.

Life expectancy has increased by 30 years over the last century, and a big part of that is due to vaccinations.

[Warpy]

6. For me, this is an entirely theoretical question since I forgot to breed

(honestly, it was on my to-do list, but you know how busy I've been).

I'm not altogether certain it's a great idea to give healthy kids a flu vaccine, just like I'm quite certain it's a terrible idea to give them amoxacillin for every ear infection.

Lifetime immunity is built up by having our immune systems function, especially when we're young and healthy. While it's annoying to have a drippy, crying, germy kid underfoot five times a year, it's what will keep this kid alive later in life.

I think a lot of parents might realize this on a visceral level. Besides, they know they'll definitely have a screaming, feverish kid on their hands if they get the vaccine and anyway, the kid might dodge the flu this year, right?

I'm not relying totally on guesswork, but on listening to friends when their kids were young. They realized the necessity for having vaccinations against the usual childhood diseases that were killers (I don't have stupid friends even if they are mostly health food nuts), but rejected the notion of vaccinating for far less lethal diseases for the reasons I stated above.

[dropkickpa]

11. Thing is, when it comes to the flu

I am VERY susceptible to it. If I am not vaxed, I get it. And every year since I was a little kid, it's worse and worse for me. I've got no resistance to it, even though I've been formally diagnosed with it 12 times and just not bothered going to the doctor for the rest of them, having been through it the year before.

It's weird, I don't pick up every cold and sniffle out there, I've NEVER had strep throat, only ever had 2 ear infections in my entire life (both at the same time - last year). But if my body even sees a flu virus it just gives up with no fighting at all.

Dropkid may or may not be the same way, I've had her vaxed every year so she's never had it. But I'd certainly like to keep her from having to deal with that if I can, and shots don't bug her, so why not? She's a dirtball (think of Pigpen with hair down to his butt), so I figure her immune system gets plenty of chances to workout. She get's out of the bathtub and, in 15 minutes, can usually have something smeared in her hair, across her face, decide this is a good time to clean the guinea pig cage, AND sneak outside barefoot and step in mud etc.

[beam me up scottie]

7. I saw the article in Medical News Today

I almost posted it in the healthscare forum this morning, but decided that any attempt to discuss this rationally was futile.

You will be assimilated.

[madinmaryland]

8. Interestingly, I have nor my kids have ever taken a flu vaccine.

Not because of anything about the vaccines themselves, but just never get around to it. Heck, we even have free vaccines in Columbia.

My wife can't take the vaccines due to them being created from eggs.

:shrug:

[beam me up scottie]

9. I've heard about the egg dilemma before but I don't understand the science.

Can you explain it for me?

:)

[madinmaryland]

10. It's my understanding that it is ingesting raw eggs that she is alergic to.

Apparently vaccines are made using raw eggs in the process. Doctors will ask you if you are allergic to eggs prior to giving you the vaccine.

This is apparently for flu vaccines only.

[beam me up scottie]

12. I didn't know that.

Thanks!

[TZ]

13. True.

Thats also why vegans don't do flu shots..they are incubated in raw eggs.

[madinmaryland]

14. Thanks for confirming that.

My wife and her mother cannot take the flu shots due to being allergic to ingested raw eggs.

[LeftyMom]

38. That's not entirely the case.

As with all medical things involving animal products/testing, the general idea is not to forego needed medical procedures, but to continue to advocate for alternatives including more animal-product free medications and for an embrace of more modern testing techniques which do not use animals.

So if one has a good reason to believe that a flu shot would be in their medical best interest, as there is no currently available vegan alternative, we don't send the vegan police car 'round for getting one. Getting one for convenience purposes only (if somebody had no risk factors, and simply wanted to avoid the possibility of being sick for a week or so) would be more debatable, I suppose.

[lizerdbits]

28. Influenza is grown in embryonated eggs

since it doesn't grow as well in culture most of the time (at least not quickly). It's not a raw issue. I've grown flu at work but in regards to making the vaccine I don't know what kind of concentration/purification is done but whatever they do it doesn't remove the egg proteins.

[WoodrowFan]

21. same here

well, I get them every year (and I do seem to do better those winters I get the shot than when I've not gotten them), but my wife can't due to some alergy related to chickens :shrug: She does eat eggs though without problem...

[trotsky]

15. I get a flu shot every year, and so do my kids.

Would it be "better" to get the real flu and have lifelong immunity? Probably. But hell, last time I did I was knocked OUT for almost 2 weeks. Used up all my vacation (because of course sick and vacation time came out of the same pool). No harm whatsoever in getting the shot, and if you get the flu anyway, then it was going to happen regardless.

I get my kids the shot because I'd rather they not suffer through the flu either. That is NO FUN being a really sick kid.

[dropkickpa]

17. And you only get immunity to THAT specific strain

Which changes every year.

[TZ]

18. Thats gonna change soon I think

They apparantly have completed phase I of a universal flu vaccine and the results look good. Looks like it *might* even confer some immunity to possible pandemic flu
http://www.fiercebiotech.com/press-releases/acambis-reports-positive-data-trials-universal-influenza-vaccine

[dropkickpa]

19. I can't wait for this one

I fucking hate the flu. You'd think, with all the varieties I've gotten, I'd have at least SOME conferred immunity to at least one strain. Nope.

edited to add - as a child, every single birthday I had was ruined by being sick. With the flu. Gotta love end of November birthday's!

[salvorhardin]

20. Oh, that's great news

I really hope it pans out, for very selfish reasons. Aside from a period during my teens, I tend to fall ill to every single flu virus that comes along. To complicate matters, my partner is a teacher so she tends to bring every single flu virus that comes along home with her. I think I was sick for a good four months, possibly more, this past year. The last one pretty much took me out of action for a solid month. A couple of years back I ended up getting pneumonia and had to be hospitalized for five days, a day of that in ICU. A universal flu vaccine would be wonderful.

[onager]

22. Total vaccine sheep here.

I take 'em all. Especially being in a part of the world where some really nasty epidemics sweep thru from time to time.

Here's something OT, but that's not unusual for me...or maybe not so OT. Since the anti-medicine woos seem determined to drag us back to The Bad Old Days.

Anybody want to read a fascinating article about leprosy? Last month, Egypt Today magazine ran a piece on the biggest leper colony in the Middle East. The article is still up on the website:

Sayed spends his days in a bed in Abu Zaabal, the biggest leper colony in the Middle East. Located in Qalyoubeya, 40 kilometers outside of Cairo, Abu Zaabal was built in 1933 to house those infected with leprosy. Rounded up by police, they were brought to the colony, ostracized and quarantined. Many have remained there for a lifetime...

One of the oldest and most feared diseases in the world, leprosy is widely misunderstood. Curable, non-infectious if treated, and non-hereditary, there is no reason why its sufferers should be shunned from society.

http://www.egypttoday.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=8091

[TZ]

23. Interesting

And another woo myth is busted in that article..You know how big Pharma doesn't want to "cure" anybody...How about Novartis donating drugs that did indeed cure lots and lots of people.....

[mr blur]

24. And now a word from a moron:

"Religious fear of vaccination causes measles cases to hit record highs in US"

I have applied for my child to be exempt from vaccination on religious grounds. Vaccination is a form of Russian roulette; you inject the child with LIVE pathogens in the hope that they will help create antibodies. But this is not how God meant it to be. I will let him face the diseases naturally and let him build his immune system, just the way God intended it to be.

Parents who play with their children's lives should be charged for child endearment. God has created a wonderful immune system, which just needs to be "tuned" up during childhood. Let your child do just that, without having to be subjected to these warped experiments.

And God punishes those who try to play him. Did you know that AIDS is a result of Polio vaccines gone wrong?

http://you.presscue.com/link/religious-fear-vaccination-causes-measles-cases-hit-record-highs-us#comment-9233

[moc]

25. I have two children (6yo and 12yo) and don't usually get them flu vacs. (m)

The reasons are varied and not mutually exclusive. First, there's the hassle of planning an extra trip to the peds office when I work full time at a location far away from both my kids schools and the peds office. Don't underestimate the importance of the hassle factor. I work in a medical center and they offer free flu vacs for employees. However, last year was the first time they brought the shots to us, setting up a shot clinic in our building 2-3 times. It was so convenient for me to walk downstairs, get bopped in the arm and be back at my desk in under 10 minutes.

Another factor for me has been my daughter's phobic reaction to needles. The last time she got a flu shot was when she was 8yo, and she was so hysterical we had to hold her down in order to give her the shot. The hysteria factor plus the hassle factor meant I just decided we'd take our chances each year. In May, however, we had to confront dd's fear of needles head on as she had to have her 12yo shots, including her first gardisil. It was an ugly scene - her threatening not to get out of the car, me threatening her back, finally getting her up to the peds office, her trying to control her hysteria, arranging for two nurses to give her shots simultaneously in both arms.

After it was all over, interestingly, she admitted the shot wasn't so bad. She had her second gardisil shot in July, and she was completely nonplussed by it. Maybe, just maybe, we're past the needle phobia. (Now if we could just get her to learn how to swallow pills without gagging.)

I think another factor for parents of school age children and teens is a belief that getting the flu "isn't all that bad". My sister is a ped, and she said the thing that convinces kids of the benefits of the flu shot most effectively is being knocked on their ass with the flu. My daughter came down with it last year (influenza A). Since she has her 3rd gardisil in October and since she seems to be past the needle phobia, I'm going to see if I can arrange a flu shot for her and my 6yo as well.

One more thing on the hassle factor, my daughter admitted to me that a couple of years ago, when she was still in elementary, they offered free flu shots at school. (Because of her fear of needles, she made sure I never saw the notice.) Having them conveniently available is a great way around the hassle factor.

[cosmik debris]

26. A suggestion if you want it.

In Waco, I can get my shot at Walgreen's, Target, Wal-Mart, CVS, or several other pharmacies including my grocery store (HEB) pharmacy. If you use an independent pharmacy, they commonly have a staff member who will administer the shot and you won't have to wait in line or anything.

If there is one between home, school, or whatever, it could turn out to be easy.

But I can't help you with the needle phobia.

Good luck.

[moc]

27. Thanks, I think if we're past the needle phobia, then that is definitely an option.

Previously, the idea of holding down a thrashing, hysterical child as big as I am in the middle of Tom Thumb's pharmacy wasn't very appealing. If she does well with her shots in October, though, it will definitely increase our options.

[realisticphish]

29. i assume she doesn't plan on giving blood

;) if she's afraid of a vaccine needle, she'll be terrified of a blood donor needle, since it looks like a friggin harpoon.

Good luck :hi:

[moc]

33. Hahaha...little chance of that. At least I don't have to worry about her coming home with a tatoo!

:-)

[dropkickpa]

30. Tell her you'll buy her an iPod if she behaves

It may do wonders for her phobia!

[mr blur]

31. If only it were that simple!

I have a needle phobia and despite having MS and a heart attack and being stuck more times than I care to remember, I've never been able to ignore it. When I was younger I would have teeth drilled without an anaesthetic because the needle would send me into uncontrollable spasms/nausea. A blood test would cause me to faint.

Still, at least I'll never get addicted to acupuncture!

[moc]

34. She got one for her birthday. However, I'm not above bribery as a parenting strategy.

I once told her I'd give her $20 when she swallowed a pill. It worked in the short term, but she quickly regressed and can't swallow pills again. I either crush everything and stir it into applesauce or give her the liquid form.

[dropkickpa]

35. Think of it like dog training

You have to consistently reward until the desired behavior has become "proofed". Sounds wacky, but this crap actually does work with kids, too! :rofl:

She's shown you she can swallow pills, but the incentive to do so went away too quickly, so she stopped. Consistency is key. Look up counter conditioning. Don't look to move on to consistent performance after the first successful attempt. You need to prove to her that this new behavior is more desirable and rewarding than the hassle of the old alternatives you resorted to (where the reward was you grinding up pills and giving her applesauce, the attention is a reward). While doing this, if you hit a refusal, hand her the pill and make her grind it up and mix it into applesauce herself, with minimal attention and fuss (reinforcing the undesired behavior) from you.

It got Dropkid to stop chewing her hair!

[LeftishBrit]

32. I don't have children of my own, but I could get it free myself and don't.

The reasons are that I've had unpleasant short-term effects from it; that although I take medications that slightly reduce my immunity (hence my eligibility for free flu vaccination), I don't in fact get the real flu very often; and that you have to get a new vaccination every year. If they do come up with a vaccine that immunizes against a number of strains and is effective for several years, then I will certainly start getting it! Also of course if there is a threatened pandemic, or projected unusually nasty strain.

[SheilaT]

36. I'm in the

I never get flu shots, nor do my kids, and none of us ever get the flu.

I'm a very big believer in natural immunity being the best.

None of you who prefer to get flu shots should take this as implying you are doing the wrong thing for yourself.

[realisticphish]

37. herd immunity

:shrug:
now, in the flu department, it's not a big deal for me. in fact, i havent gotten one in years, because i'm young and pretty healthy. once i get older, as in 60+, i might start getting them again. as long as you and your children are healthy, the flu isn't that big of a deal (right now, who knows what it might mutate into)

the other diseases, like MMR, are more important IMHO. Those can mess you up pretty quickly

[SheilaT]

39. I just turned 60.

And I'm the healthiest person I know. I'm still not convinced that for normally healthy persons flu shots are a good idea. I believe that there's an incredible amount of hype connected to the OMG! WHO KNOWS WHAT IT MIGHT MUTATE INTO stuff that we hear all the time. Any attempts to use the 1918 flu epidemic as a model for what could happened is greatly flawed for various reasons: simple hand washing, which wasn't as common then in part because many people, especially in the slums of large cities, did not have running water. It also spread so rapidly because so many young men who had literally never been off the farm were being crowded into army barracks in less than sanitary conditions. These young men had less than wonderful immune systems because they'd been exposed to so few outsiders that they succumbed to all sorts of diseases, such as measles, in great numbers.

Even the MMR (which my children did get, by the way) I am somewhat skeptical of. There absolutely is a trade-off between immunizations which sometimes (rarely) have bad side effects and limited immunity, and the permanent immunity conferred by actually getting the disease. I am quite aware of the (relatively rare) possibility of death or serious side effects of actually getting any one of the old "childhood diseases". As a society we've made the choice that immunizing against a host of diseases is a good idea. Keep in mind, my kids have gotten all their immunizations.

I also wonder if there's not a distinct connection between a greater incidence of various auto-immune diseases and the greater number of vaccinations we all get these days. Again, everything is a trade off.

[TZ]

40. Actually...

The school of thought with the increase in autoimmune disorders is 1) genetic 2) Overprotectiveness in not exposing children to pathogens as children..Alot of doctors think that all the anti-bacterials and anti-microbial and protect children from the natural environment produces that plus allergies. Lets not forget the children who aren't breast fed so don't get the jumpstart their natural immune system needs..I also think those who do NOT vaccinate are more likely to have sickly children, because vaccinations are getting the immune system do what its supposed to do--learn to what its supposed to make antibodies to.
Untrained its likely the immune system is going to become overly aggresive and attack inappropriate targets. At least thats my semi-learned opinion on the matter.

[dropkickpa]

42. Unless you end up like my family

I was breastfed until one, Mom wasn't a clean freak, we ALWAYS had tons of pets and weren't allowed to play in thehouse if it was even moderately temperate out, but I managed to inherit my Dad's awful allergies. Dropkid bids fair to be the same. I make her wash her hands before going to school, before meals, or when they are filthy (I don't use anti-bac soaps, they make me rashy). We have lots of pets and I breast fed exclusively til she was 9 months, and mostly until she was 1. I was never a sickly child beyond the flu and allergies, and she's seems to be the same (can't say for the flu, I've always vaxed her for it based on my history, but any cold she gets is knocked down very fast, she's only had 2 ear infections, and she got a nasty coxsakie throat thing about 3 years ago).

Autoimmune stuff DOES run in my family, my mum and her mum and her mum and her mum etc back to the end of time all had RA. Chances are I have or will end up with it, I'm getting some signs. Can't fight genetics on a lot of this stuff. I don't think it's an increase, people just didn't live through most of this crap in ye olde days. They are discovering new autoimmue disorders all the time, things that went mis or undiagnosed previously.

[realisticphish]

41. the thing is

vaccines ARE natural immunity. there isn't some magic chemical that kills the flu, it's teaching the body to fight off the disease

[dropkickpa]

43. I think this point is what is NOT understood by many

It's like Cliff's notes for the immune system.

[SheilaT]

44. And as always, individual

genetics matters a lot.

I breast fed both my boys for two years. I'm a casual housekeeper at best. Older son has my seasonal allergies, and both sons have alopecia areata, an auto-immune disorder that causes hair loss. But they're not sick, in fact they are sick less often than any other young people I've known. They did get all their shots. So who knows why they have no hair, and why they're so healthy. These young men never get colds, never get flu, never get whatever is going around. I and my siblings were always very healthy, also, and we're all old enough that we got all the standard childhood disease. In fact, as I get older I really notice how many people over 50 seem to have some kind of chronic condition of one kind or another.

I'm aware of the thinking that overly clean homes can be a contributor to the increase in auto-immune disorders, and I'm sure there's something too that. The overprotection of children isn't all that good an idea, in my opinion.

And thanks for the feedback and opinions. I always appreciate them.

[Evoman]

45. I don't ever get flu shots. Don't know....always assumed I didn't need them.

I mean, yeah I get sick every now and then and it sucks, but it doesn't kill me and I get time off work, lol. I'm not anti flu shot or anything...I think they are important for the very young and the very old. But the flue isn't gonna kill me, so I don't give it much thought.

In all my life, I have never once had a flue shot. I've received a lot of other vaccines, though, since I've done some travelling.

[semillama]

47. I've been the same way

but now that I'm going to be a dad, I'm going to start getting them. A big reason is that I don't want to laid up with the flu when my wife goes into labor...

[Random_Australian]

46. I have a potent reaction to something in some vaccines;

unfortunately when I asked my parents what thing in what vaccines, they had forgotten. So no vaccines for me, 'cos I don't know which will provoke the "Wa-hey, your face is an interesting shade of grey" reaction.

[TZ]

48. Interesting.

Do you have food allergies of any sort?

[Random_Australian]

49. Nope! I've eaten quite a variety, and never had an allergic reaction.

No allergies to anything else, either.

[TZ]

50. weird.

Well I guess you being "allergic" to biology and all that makes sense.....;-)

[Random_Australian]

51. Oh, biology is fine.

Provided you kill the speciment and then put it through a high-temp flame, removing any information about how it was organised first.