Do you suppose that any vaccine/autism believers can ever be conviced otherwise?

[Orrex]

I've had the discussion dozens of times, and it always boils down to "I believe it, so you're wrong neener-neener-neener."

In this regard, the belief is just like Creationism.

[TZ]

1. Probably not.

Look at the thread in the science forum about this. I think that should tell you all you need to know. Especially the one guy who was citing a NIH doc who I think is a bit on the paranoid side.
People in there KNOW I've got that background and yet, that seems to just convince them even more that they are right!

[Orrex]

5. And yet I must be the bigger fool

Because I keep going back again and again. I just got through with one of them, and she basically dismissed every reasoned point I made as "spin" and "mumbo jumbo."

I guess the reason that we keep at it is for the sake of the innocent reader who might otherwise come away with the impression that the Woos are in charge and that they're (god forbid) correct! :scared:

[TZ]

6. I'm getting awfully tired of it.

You will notice that I have absented myself from that thread..and I make it a point to avoid health now..as important as dubunking the bullshit is, I just can't afford the aggravation health wise..
I knew I needed to leave the science thread when I asked someone how the fuck a vaccine causes a genetic defect..You know when I start cursing its not a good thing...:banghead:

[Orrex]

8. Yeah, I was right behind you in that thread

Hannah Poling is the sainted martyr of vaccine-induced autism. The woos' invocation of her name as some kind of unassailable paragon of innocent victimhood is, in my view, a sickeningly cynical tactic intended to appeal to emotionalsm, once again at the expense of reason.

Don't let it aggravate you in real life--they're nuts, and they're likely to stay nuts. As William S. Burroughs said:

Do not offer sympathy to the mentally ill. Tell them firmly, "I am not paid to listen to this drivel. You are a terminal fool."

True words, true words.

[TZ]

11. Its hard to listen to people

bashing your coworkers and respected colleages and not take it personally. Its not being called a shill so much that upsets me, but having people I respect and like being dragged through the mud by ignorant idiots. I saw a version of this at NIH (which is why I told someone that being a scientist at NIH doesn't always score points with me) that just made me sick...

[trotsky]

12. That particular individual is otherwise quite rational and sane.

But on the vaccine issue, he's neither. Oh well, not everyone can be perfect like us. :)

[cosmik debris]

13. Until about two tears ago I had no idea there was a controversy

But I visited Wooville and discovered philb pontificating from on high.

I read both sides of the story and followed links from many different posters.

After considerable time spent reading about this controversy, I concluded that the Mercury Mafia was full-o-shit and the Rational Raiders were on the right track.

So next time you doubt the significance of your participation, remember, there may be another person like me who needs to know that it is not just a one sided issue.

I understand how you get frustrated. I too take breaks from Wooville. But don't give up just because they are ten times crazier than you are sane.

Perhaps we should take shifts like the Wooville Neighborhood Watch?

[Orrex]

14. Thanks--that actually means quite a lot!

Most times I'm sufficiently narcissistic that I can expound at length upon any topic at all, with or without good reason, but this particular issue's been wearing me down. It's greatly encouraging to learn that some people are benefiting what can otherwise seem like a fruitless effort!

[salvorhardin]

2. No

Facts, evidence and logic rarely are convincing to a true believer no matter what the belief. Our brains are structured against it. One can only hope to educate the ignorant who have no opinion or persuade those who are on the fence.

[LeftishBrit]

3. Probably people who've not followed it closely can be convinced..

but strong believers, no.

There are some who have autistic family members, and are desperate for a simple explanation and possible cure - and are manipulated by the charlatans. (As with other ill-understood chronic medical conditions.)

Then there are those who are just deeply suspicious of conventional medicine in all its forms, and this is one part of it.

And then there are those who have been swayed by emotional media presentations.

To be fair: there HAVE been quite a number of mistakes and cover-ups by governments, that have probably led to people being more prepared to assume that everything is a cover-up. In the UK, the government's unwillingness to face the truth about the dangers of 'mad cow disease' in the late 80s probably contributed to a mindset favourable to the rubbish spread by Andrew Wakefield.

[JitterbugPerfume]

4. NO

the true believers stand firm in their stupidity

[realisticphish]

7. very few, if any

even when presented with actual studies, they think it's a science conspiracy. And without that evidence, there's nothing. So as long as it's BIG PHARMA!!!1! we got nuthin

[enki23]

9. not many of the hardcore ones, no. but there are a lot of ambivalent bystanders

the measles virus-> no wait mercury-> ->maybe aluminum? -> umm... shots are bad? people can't be reached, of course.

[trotsky]

10. NO.

That's a big fat emphatic NO.

The person you were "arguing" with is still on my ignore list, but I know full well who it is. Dense as a rock. Apparently she's latched on like a pitbull to the Poling case as the PROOF, huh?

Yeah, there's no ability to change minds there. None whatsoever. They've bought into it hook line and sinker.

[Odin2005]

15. No, they have an intense psychological need to think we will become "normal" if they just...

...found some way to "cure" us Autistics. It's all about selfishness on the part of parents that want the perfect child.

This crap is especially hurtful to us Autistics because they call us "damaged" and "poisoned" and need to be "cured," it's an attack on who we are, it is just as much bigotry as the people that think homosexuality can be cured.

[conscious evolution]

16. When big pharm quits payoffs to shills

maybe people would not be so suspicious of big pharm co's.
You know,people like this guy- http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/dekalb/stories/2008/10/04/Emory_professor_investigation.html

Emory University officials said Saturday that a prominent psychiatric researcher has been accused several times in recent years with not disclosing earnings from drug companies and not revealing potential conflicts of interest....

Congressional investigators have found that Nemeroff received $2.8 million in consulting fees from companies, some whose drugs he was evaluating, and failed to report a third of that amount to the university, according to a story this weekend in the New York Times. If true, the allegations represent a violation of federal research rules and university ethics guidelines....

Congressional investigators have found that Nemeroff received $2.8 million in consulting fees from companies, some whose drugs he was evaluating, and failed to report a third of that amount to the university, according to a story this weekend in the New York Times. If true, the allegations represent a violation of federal research rules and university ethics guidelines....

Outside Emory, Nemeroff has had to deal with at least one other conflict-of-interest allegation.

In 2006, he left his post as editor-in-chief of the national medical journal Neuropsychophamacology following an outcry over an article he wrote, giving a positive review to a medical implant manufactured by Houston-based Cyberonics. Nemeroff and seven of his co-authors did not disclose in the article that they worked as paid consultants and sat on an advisory board at the company.

Granted,this guy is not dealing with vaccines.But he is an example of a big pharm shill.
Here are some more articles on this fine,upstanding researcher who would never,ever compromise his work by.... Do I really need a sarcasm thingy here?

[TZ]

17. And if people would STOP BROAD BRUSHING all these companies

as teh evil, maybe we could actually get things done! FYI--there are tons of highly ethical and quite scientifically talented companies (like the one I work for--hell I found out yesterday my lab may have made a fairly interesting scientific discovery!) which people don't hear about and then people assume they don't exist. There are bad eggs in every field and usually you don't hear about the good ones. Funny how people on this site complain CONSTANTLY about the MSM but when it comes to biopharmaceuticals..thats where they get all their news. And the MSM knows JACKSHIT about this field.
And none of these stories are every as cut and dry as people make them..for every Vioxx case theres about 20-30 real success stories in new drugs but no one gets that.
I also know just because a company screws up one product doesn't mean they don't make other things that are safe and effective. I've worked with the scientists from Merck when I was at NIH and other places and they are quite competent and knowledgable.
I'm sorry I'm not God and can't make every bad person in my industry go away.
:rant:

On edit: Also my company is about to market a new technology which extends the effectiveness of immunological drugs! So instead of a patient having to get an infusion every three months..it will be more like every 6 months! Gasp! Evil money making Pharma wanting to make drugs more efficient?

[LeftishBrit]

18. I was just on the health forum...

god, do some of the posts get me down there (and I survive on the Israel/Palestine forum, so I'm not one who can't handle controversy!) But the denial of adequate medical care to kids in developing countries is a hot button for me, and when people imply that exporting vaccines to developing countries is an evil plot THAT'S what really gets me. Yes, it's OK for millions of children to die of preventable diseases but not to get vaccines. China has supposedly seen a 'sharp rise in autism' - perhaps because kids there now live long enough to demonstrate autism (a horrendous number didn't before the vaccines)? And get to see doctors and get diagnosed?

[rexcat]

19. Logic and understanding of science and medicine...

are not a part of their being. Fear and misunderstanding drives them.

[Deep13]

20. Sure, if they get smallpox. nt