So, what's it like to have a President who respects Science?

[mr blur]

Must be a good feeling.

"At last, science gets a champion":

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/dec/21/obama-john-holdren

[TZ]

1. Nice except for the fact

That he chose Rick Warren to give a prayer at the inaugural so that automatically cancels out the selections.
Or at least thats what I learned in GD.:sarcasm:

[semillama]

2. Yes, apparently Obama is now Bush III or something.

Another poster put it well: "A pastor is not a policy."

[mr blur]

4. I don't know how things work over there -

But did Obama himself not choose Warren?

[TZ]

5. sure.

Its a two minute prayer, though. Bill Clinton had Billy Graham I believe. No difference, imo.
I'd rather no prayer of course but hey. If he wants to throw a bone to fundies, I'd rather he'd do it in a SYMBOLIC way.
I don't really give a shit as long as Warren isn't making policy. But you know, I'm one of those fundie athiest types that feelslike most openly religious people are bigoted agaisnt some group (be it gays atheists, jews etc..)

[skepticscott]

9. If Rick Warren

had taken the clear and unequivocal position that women should not have the same rights as men or that blacks should not have the same rights as whites, would Obama still have invited him? I doubt it, so why has he invited him after declaring that homosexuals should never have the same rights as heterosexuals? And you should know well that "throwing a bone" to fundies serves no purpose but to embolden them. They will take every inch of ground we surrender to them and give nothing back, ever. These people are not interested in compromise, they are not interested in "opening dialogues" and they are not interested in peaceful coexistence with liberals, atheists or academic "elitists" of any sort. Any that show signs of doing so are given the boot and replaced by new whackos.

And if you imagine for one minute Rick Warren will be gone after Jan 20th, you're gravely mistaken. You don't think his Saddleback Forum was a one-time thing do you? Every presidential candidate for the foreseeable future will be required to submit to Warren's personal grilling about their level of piety and devotion to Christianity, and I'm sure that won't be all, now that Obama has granted him even greater legitimacy. And don't forget, that went on while both candidates blithely dismissed appearing at a forum on scientific issues, with no repercussions. Maybe Obama will actually make good science policy, but he has a lot to prove and has done nothing substantial yet. If he will eagerly embrace Warren's lunatic ideas about homosexuality for his own political gain, what's to say he won't do the same with global warming deniers? He seems reluctant and even afraid to push hard on clear-cut issues when he's afraid it might seem uncompromising or absolutist. He wants to be everyone's friend and give equal weight to all points of view, regardless of their merit, and that just won't wash in science.

[beam me up scottie]

11. I'm with you, Scott.

You can't swing a dead fetus around here without hitting dozens of preacher men.

Did he have to choose Warren to throw a bone to evangelists?

Really?

If that decision is an example of this administration's calculated diplomacy, I may just need to get that xanax prescription refilled after all...

[TZ]

15. Obama's first ACT

Will be to repeal Bush's ban on embryonic stem cell research. Does that sound like someone who is listening to a fundie?
Personally it was the Jeremiah Wright thing that upset me more. Because many dems seem to think he's a hero when he's just as much a bigot and danger as any fundie.
And like it or not, Warren's base makes up 25-30 percent of the voting block in this country. Too large to be ignored--even HRC has pandered to this man. They ALL do it. No one should be shocked by this.

[beam me up scottie]

21. Bush made sure his invocation excluded all non-christians, too.

It set the tone for the next eight years.

I don't give a flying fuck who else panders to Warren, Obama had the power to choose someone else and didn't.

[skepticscott]

30. We'll have to see

Obama was also supposed to repeal the Bush tax cuts, but that ain't happening. As far as Warren goes, Obama has to know that he wants more political influence (and not for a secular and intellectual agenda), but he's done nothing to let him know that he's not going to get it.

I'm still perfectly willing to judge Obama on what he and his people actually do, but he's got a ways to go to convince me that he will stand in tough on issues like these.

[Deep13]

19. I'm forced to agree.

The man is a con artist who makes his living by pandering to irrationality.

[fadedrose]

6. Ya, for a science guy,

you'd think he'd know that oil and water don't mix. He'll find out....

[TZ]

7. Umm

You think this guy is gonna be in his cabinent? He's not. He's not gonna be anywhere after Jan 20th.
FWIW even Hilary Clinton has interacted with this guy. As have a lot of other dems. Or did you miss the faith based forums?
Me, as I said, I don't give a fuck about a symbolic meaningless prayer. I do care that he's put scientists in charge of science. But hey, that doesn't matter right? Fire Obama right now, right?

[fadedrose]

8. I feel bad for gay people

They worked hard for Obama and had high hopes and now feel slighted, hopefully for no reason.

Of course this prayer doesn't mean anything as far as how Obama handles everything else, but it does seem that it was insensitive on the part of Obama's advisors... I doubt if there is one out of 1000 clergyman who approves of gays, but this guy was very active in denouncing them, from what I read in DU-Pres.

I feel bad about Howard Dean not getting any position...

Obama's advisors are working to bring everyone together, moderates and republicans, with the exclusion of progressives it seems.

As far as who Clinton spent time with, I could care less. Didn't and don't feel comfortable about her (I came here to Skeptics to avoid politics for a while till I see what's what in January).

I love Obama and Michelle and have from the start. I just hope he's picked the right people - Joe Biden is my favorite pick, and he's the one who said that we have a VEEP who believes in science.

[beam me up scottie]

12. Warren is guilty of far more than "denouncing" gays, he could easily be a 21st century eugenicist

I hate all religion in politics, but there are thousands of other evangelicals who would have "bridged the gap" instead of nuking it into a chasm.

[TZ]

18. What about Jews and women?

and other non-christian minorities. Warren is just as hateful to them. Meh, they are ALL bigots in my eyes.

[jberryhill]

14. Nobody can "fire Obama"

And "interacting with" is different from this.

The Saddleback web site expressly informs the public that homosexuals are not allowed to join Warren's church.

Now, imagine for a moment that a preacher had been invited who is merely a member of a white-only country club.

In our politics that sort of thing is often an automatic exclusion from a lot of things.

It's okay with gays, but not okay when it's about race. That's a disturbing double standard.

It's profoundly disappointing.

However, Barack Obama has never in his life directly encountered racial discrimination.

[TZ]

17. I couldn't join his church either because of my political views.

All religion is exclusionary by nature. Whether it be GLBT, women, people of different ethncities.
Hell John Kerry's OWN religion wants to throw him out of the church for his political beliefs. And yet, if he could have the Pope give a prayer at something for him do you not think he would?
How often are women excluded from religious positions as well. Anyone who thinks that the RR is only bigoted agaisnt GLBT is not paying attention.
What if Obama had asked a Muslim official to give the prayer? Islam is pretty woman unfreindly. Or Jesse Jackson? He's pretty anti-semitic..
personally anyone chosen would have been bigoted towards someone. Thats the destructive nature of religion.
Or perhaps you missed the hero worship of one Jeremiah Wright around here, who is as hateful as anyone I've seen for a long time.

[jberryhill]

20. None of those hypotheticals has any relevance whatsoever

The Pope has not been invited to give the invocation, nor has a muslim cleric, nor has Jeremiah Wright, so raising the point of "a lot of religions or religious people exclude or discriminate" is a non sequitor.

There are people of faith who do not represent exclusion or discrimination.

The choice is not between bigot A or bigot B, and it is surprising that someone of your intelligence would present the issue as if it were.

[jberryhill]

25. I forgot to add...

That Mr. Wright was originally invited to appear at the announcement of Mr. Obama's candidacy in Springfield.

Mr. Wright's invitation was revoked, and the program changed, after review of his inflammatory prior commentary.

Accordingly, Mr. Obama does have a history of making these sorts of changes.

Mr. Warren's comments are obviously acceptable in a manner that Mr. Wright's are not, and that judgment has been made.

[PVnRT]

31. Shhhh

Don't point out pesky details like that.

[LeftishBrit]

3. Must be quite a relief after Bush!

Also there was the appointment of a Nobel prize winning physicist as Energy Secretary.

[fadedrose]

10. Finally read the link...

and was glad to learn more about John Holdren who has been appointed as his chief scientific adviser. Who's he replacing or is this a new post?

[jberryhill]

13. I dunno. We don't have one yet

But he apparently respects exclusion of undesirable groups of people, so far. We'll see.

[TZ]

16. Which politician is different in this regard?

Though I hear he is considering making an openly gay man Secretary of the Navy, so I'm not sure the "exclusion" policy is really true.

[jberryhill]

22. I said "respects" those who exclude

Mr. Obama has never personally dealt with discrimination and does not understand it.

Now, you can go look up donations and find that my wife and I donated $3K to get him elected starting back in Jan. '08, so I'm not some disgruntled PUMA.

People freak out when some politician or appointee is a member of a white-only club, and there is zero question that such a person would have no place in an Obama inauguration as a representative of God.

But, Sue, you are right. Maybe I was fooled into thinking that Mr. Obama might be different from every other politician in a number of ways.

Stupid me, and thank you for pointing out that it was stupid to believe that there was any difference between him and any other politician. I could have voted for McCain/Palin and gotten the same thing, now that you mention it.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

23. "Mr. Obama has never personally dealt with discrimination and does not understand it"

I guess the last two years of racist attacks against Obama didn't really happen?

Why don't you save it for your Melissa Etheridge CD burning.

[jberryhill]

24. To what has Mr. Obama ever been denied entry or membership?

Specifically?

Here's a hint - you might consider that "racism" and "discrimination" are actually two different words, with two different definitions. Really. You can look it up.


The Melissa Etheridge comment is incomprehensible to me. Apparently, you have confused me with someone else. Has Ms. Etheridge also arranged to have Mr. Warren represent God at a national ceremony?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

26. Oh, she did much worse.

She associated with him at some sort of CD signing ceremony. Which just doesn't compare to some inaugural invocation.

Stop telling me to just "get over it."

[jberryhill]

27. I gather you are not going to identify an instance

of discrimination relating to Barack Obama.

If you have a beef with Melissa Etheridge, by all means sound off. I wouldn't know her if she bit me in the ass.

You aren't being sincere, but I'm not the kind of person who responds to people who are hurt and feeling betrayal by telling them how unimportant they are.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

28. "You aren't being sincere"

Says the person dismissing racism as not being a form of discrimination.

[jberryhill]

29. You might want to consult a dictionary

As an attorney, I can tell you straight off that racism is legal, discrimination is not.

You can be the biggest racist in the world, so long as you do not refuse to hire African Americans. There is no law against opinions.

If Warren were a member of a white-only organization, much less managed and operated one, his disqualification from this event would be a no brainer.