Okay everybody, it's time to dust off the Rules for Debating with "Alt-med" Believers.

[beam me up scottie]

From http://www.geocities.com/healthbase/altmed_debate_laidler.html">James R. Laidler, MD and The Quack-Files:

For those about to engage in the (futile) attempt to debate believers in "alt-med," be prepared to enter a place where
logic and reason have no meaning - and where the rules for debate are not the same for both sides.

"Alt-med" believers usually feel that they are in a privileged position when it comes to debate. Being in possession of a
"revealed truth", they tend to feel that anyone who does not share their beliefs is obliged to defend their skepticism. This
is expressed as a set of (until now) unwritten rules of debate that place the skeptic and rationalist in an inferior position.

As with the lottery, this should be done for entertainment only - you have about the same chance of changing a "true
believer's" mind as you have of winning the lottery. That said, it CAN be fun, if you have the right attitude and know the
rules.

Here are the unspoken ground rules that the "alt-med" believers impose on any debate:

I'll just list my favorites, feel free to post your own:

<8> "Open-minded" means "willing to permanently suspend disbelief." If you insist on holding on to your old, outmoded
ideas (such as chemistry, biology, physics, anatomy, physiology or even simple logic), you will be blind to their new truth.

<11> "Tolerance", for you, means swallowing their line of "reasoning" without complaint (or gagging). For them, "tolerance"
means letting you get in a few words when they take a breath. You'll know that the debate is over when they call you a
"nazi" (or similar epithet) - it's just their little way of showing tolerance for other points of view.

<12> You can't convince them, so don't try to - just enjoy the game. The "alt-med" believers desperately want to be taken
seriously, so don't get defensive - it just gives them credibility in the eyes of the public. Try laughing instead. There will
probably be other people listening that may see the logic in your reasoning, so your efforts are not in vain.

Sage advice from a veteran, thank you Dr. Laidler.

[mr blur]

1. I like:

<2> In "alt-med", everyone is a victim - of corrupt doctors, polluting corporations, government conspiracies, etc. Their
disorders are never caused by their own lifestyle choices (e.g. overeating, too little exercise, drinking too much, etc.),
genetics or random chance. And their symptoms are most definitely NOT psychosomatic or imaginary. To even imply
otherwise is a serious breach of etiquette.


<4> Scientific method is merely a ploy to keep the truth of "alt-med" hidden so that corrupt doctors and "Big Pharma"
(pharmaceutical corporations) can continue to profit from human misery. This is no different from the oil companies and
auto manufacturers that have hidden the secret of cars that run on water or get 2000 miles to the gallon of gasoline.

It's funny 'cos it's true...

[beam me up scottie]

4. He's obviously studied woos for quite some time.

I'd love to see him film a documentary. :D

[Warpy]

2. That's a nice recap of their rules for us.

My rule for them is "never argue with a crazy person."

I just put the truth out there for anybody sensible who might be reading the thread and walk away.

The loonies will continue to be loonies and I don't see any real advantage to getting down in the mud to wrestle with them.

[TZ]

3. Too bad because

I would pay real money to watch you "rip someone's asshole out" as I saw someone in Health suggest you do...:rofl:

[beam me up scottie]

5. I love it when you contribute.

I never want to cross a pissed off nurse, you guys rock.

[trotsky]

6. Well, I just got slapped in the face by #3 again - except it's been enhanced now.

Old version:

(3) Suffering from a disorder, or having a family member (e.g. parent, spouse, etc.) that suffers from a disorder makes
you an unimpeachable expert on that disorder. Any lack of formal education, training or expertise is more than
compensated by intimate knowledge as a sufferer or "co-sufferer".

trotsky's suggested new version:

(3) Suffering from a disorder, or having a family member that suffers from a disorder, automatically makes you an unimpeachable expert on not only THAT disorder but any other medical issue you choose to discuss. Any lack of formal education, training, or expertise is infinitely outweighed by intimate knowledge as a sufferer or "co-sufferer", or from reading a few articles on the Internet. It also allows you to lay a Titanic-sized guilt trip on anyone who wants to argue facts with you, since how DARE they disrespect your or your loved one's suffering.

[TZ]

7. Nice post, MR. Evil Skeptic!

How durst you bring facts and logic to a woofight! :rofl:
Keep up the good work, Trotsky..I really CANNOT take the Health Lounge anymore, it just makes me too flipping mad..and that I don't need with my health issues..*sigh*

[trotsky]

8. I've read articles!

I know more than those stupid scientists!

[TZ]

11. of course

all that school larnin goes to their heads and makes them arrogant....;)

[beam me up scottie]

9. Yeah, I saw that. Somehow being honest always makes you the bad guy.

They whip out the Wronged Victim(s)™ and wave them around like Old Glory when they can't back up their bullshit.

I have a dead mother but I never use her as a trump card.

[Orrex]

21. I ran up against one of those tonight

I'm callous, doncha know.

[uppityperson]

10. Working in both science and woo fields, I find it aggravating and amusing alternately.

Working as a nurse and a massage therapist, I hear all sorts of stuff form all sorts of people. Being able to break down jargon to understandableness has been one of the things I am good at. And figuring out how to solve puzzles.

That said, there are a lot of people who are not just ignorant but happy and argumentative in their ignorance. I am trying to learn to laugh at them, since, in the end, wasting my time, energies and emotions is stupid.

Thank you for this and for this forum. Sanity from other like minded individuals is very welcome.

[beam me up scottie]

12. That's something a lot of woos don't understand, most of us have personal experience with woo-ology

I'm trying to remember to laugh too, but when they become drug reps for Big Woo, the hypocrisy is impossible to ignore.

Thank you for your contributions, your sense of humour, wit and knowledge is always welcome. :)

[uppityperson]

16. Lesson 1 in a&p class in massage school...

"bodies are made of systems. systems are made of organs. organs are made of tissues. tissues are made of molecules. (at this point I am nodding my head in time with the words) molecules are made of atoms. (yeah yeah yeah, on to electrons, etc, will she talk about subatomic particles for these guys?) atoms are made of things like...(pause to think) hydrogen and carbon!"

(oh, breath, just keep breathing)

Later during a talk on "Polarity" the instructor(?) went on..."bodies have north and south poles. Each part of the body has a north and south pole. Even cells have north and south poles. This is like the Earth. Did you know the Earth has a north and a south pole too? That's what makes gravity!" (at which point I had to look down quickly as the chemist and biologist in the class turned to look at me.

That said, I was taken to task out in GD last night for not using Medically Accurate Jargon while trying to explain right to refuse care and privacy issues. Oh well.

What is a shill/woo? Shillooo? Wooshill? The older I get, the less tolerant I get of the willfully ignorant

[beam me up scottie]

17. LMAO!

"Each part of the body has a north and south pole. Even cells have north and south poles. This is like the Earth. Did you know the Earth has a north and a south pole too?"

Was Mr. Rogers your instructor?

[uppityperson]

18. It left me musing on what happens when the poles change. This "teacher" was, um, interesting

"did you know the earth has a north and south pole too?" I tried to not wince obnoxiously, esp since others were watching me, but still.

And then thinking about poles changing, or even moving. Mulling over flying off into space. Or when the poles shifted a little, did that affect my weight? It was a long class.

[beam me up scottie]

19. argh.

Why can't they just stick to the facts, that done correctly, massage therapy is a wonderful way to rehabilitate after an injury, improve circulation and relieve stress?

It works but it's not magic, ferchrisesake, why add all the unnecessary woo? :banghead:

[uppityperson]

20. Exactly. I had 1 person tell me I did such wonderful energy work,thank you so much. I felt like

apologizing. But hey, person felt better so what the hey

[Orrex]

13. Without question, I have encountered an #6 more than any other rule,

<6> No matter how outrageous their claim is, it is true unless you can prove it false.

In fact, it's not simply true by default; it's true because you've helped to prove it true.

This little gem is universally applicable and infinitely variable. If you can't explain exactly what that grainy photo is showing, then you've proven that it's an interstellar spacecraft. If you can't explain exactly why the cancer went into remission, then you've proven that shark cartilage cured it. If you can't prove that acupuncture didn't cure the sinus infection, then you've proven that acupuncture can do everything.

:banghead:

[beam me up scottie]

15. One particular study comes to mind.

I declare this study to be unscientific and I demand that you disprove it.

If you can't or won't, I will be forced to tell everyone you believe in woo.

[Orrex]

14. Laidler has another excellent article on that same site

http://www.geocities.com/healthbase/null_hypothesis_laidler.html

A great and thorough refutation of the endlessly repeated claim that western medicine is the leading cause of death in the U.S.