Why can people NOT separate out criticism of the Israeli govt

[TZ]

from anti-semitism to Jewish people in general? Its so predictible. Everytime the Israeli govt does something horrid, the Jews are EVIL mantra pops up everywhere. Even among so called "progressives".
I cannot believe how many people are defending Helen Thomas's horrid "Jews should go back to Poland and Germany" remark. God. Its depressing. Its made worse by knowing Israel brings this on themselves but for those of us who live elsewhere its going to be unpleasant for awhile....:banghead:

[mr blur]

1. There's a certain fear that accompanies any criticism of Israel

as if criticising the actions of the state means that you're somehow expressing the view that Hitler was right. I think that Israel does a lot of bad things but that's not to say that "the Jews" do a lot of bad things. Perhaps the fear of being seen as saying something anti-Semitic lead people to go too far the other way - i.e. "Look at me, I'm not afraid to criticise Jews!" I do feel though that Israel hides behind the memory of the obscene things that were done to Jewish people, using it as a way of avoiding criticism.

[TZ]

2. Yeah. The current govt of Israel is very RW

They probably do that the way the Bush administration manipulated 9/11 fears.
The other problem is that most Jews in this country are democrats and I think that the Obama administration is being quiet maybe too quiet because they too don't seem to know how to criticize Israel without offending American Jews. However, it is my personal belief that most American Jews really don't like the way Israel behaves. Though I have a few relatives who seem to think Israel can do no wrong...*sigh*

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

3. It stems from anti-Obama hate.

Helen Thomas has been seen as critical of the Obama administration. So they've latched on to her. And they're staying latched on to her. Ironically, one of the ones defending Thomas' anti-semitism this morning was just accusing Obama supporters of "blind loyalty."

[realisticphish]

4. There are an ocean of complaints

I have about Israel. That doesn't mean I think they shouldn't exist. But their utter hypocrisy means that, yeah, some might consider me hostile towards Israel. It has NOTHING to do with religion; it has everything to do with the actions taken by, and overlooked by, the government. Settlements; demolition of homes; the blockade; restriction of aid to Gaza which excludes concrete and water filtration; all of those things would be condemned were this a Christian or Muslim country. But people are afraid to be viewed as anti-semetic (ironically, since Palestinians are Semites too, AFAIK). Or, they think the Palestinians deserve it.

And believe me, the Palestinians aren't precious little angels either. The rocket attacks are reprehensible, and israel is very justified in being worried about security. But Israel criticizes many in Hamas for being against a two-state solution, while ignoring settlements and other provocations. Israel is stuck in a VERY tough place. Much of the middle east wants them destroyed. But taking it out on civilians is the opposite of helpful. And the Gaza Aid Fleet thing. If you think that guns are inside the ships, escort them to GAZA, not Israel, and inspect them as they are offloaded. Problem solved. Israel gets to secure itself, Gaza gets aid, no one has to die. But Israel reacted with full force, in international waters, exactly the wrong way to do it. They thought the commandos would end it quietly, but instead it's a PR nightmare.

Yet all of that is set aside when it comes to the "evil jews" stuff. I don't care if some jewish people in Israel have bad policies, why is it considered acceptable by many to be racist about it? If someone on DU were to say "send all the muslims back to the middle east" they would rightly be considered racist. Yet its ok for HT to say things like that. Would things in the middle east be more peaceful if Israel didn't exist? I don't know; I doubt it. It's just a volatile region, and always has been.

Wow, this was a long post :D

[SemiCharmedQuark]

5. Yeah, I find myself arguing positions that are probably considered "pro-Israel"

They're really not. I just can't stand claims that the JOOS control the government, Jewish people in government are double agents, the Jews should all be deported to Europe/New York (no, really. Someone said that.)...it pushes me to argue because those things are just so...STUPID.

In reality, my views are in line with yours. I don't think there is an easy solution.

[realisticphish]

8. exactly

its frustrating. Because if I criticize Israel, I get called anti-semetic. AND THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE... it just boggles the mind that there can be large numbers of people, theoretically liberal, who are anti-semetic. People like that make it impossible to have a real dialogue on the issue of I/P.

[TZ]

9. FWIW

I agree with everything you said. I've always despised Netanyahu - he's a slightly smarter Bush. And many American Jews particularly reformed or secular feel the same way. But as I feared, Israel's stupidity is bringing the Jew haters out in force. And there are an awful lot of them. Recently in GD some idiot was posting about Israel forcing women to sit in the back of buses. :wtf: women have more rights there than even the US

[Odin2005]

24. IMO a big problem in Israel is the highly vocal religious nuts...

That consider the West Bank and Gaza "their land and given to them by God". If they try to eliminate the settlements I would suspect that the nuts would turn violent and millitant.

[realisticphish]

25. right

i read an excellent book called "Accidental Empire" which outline the history of the settlements, and the real problem of the conflict between secular israelis who don't give a shit, and religious nuts who are radical about settling

[TZ]

27. Yep: The assasination of Yitzak Rabin proves this.

He was the last really peace minded Israeli leader.

[LeftishBrit]

28. Too true.

They are a minority of the population, but they exert a terribly disproportionate influence, both through the implicit and sometimes explicit threat of domestic terrorism, and because the extreme form of PR in the Israeli electoral system enables small extremist parties to hold the government hostage politically.

Also they have a lot more children than the secular Israelis, and teach them their values, so that their proportion in the population is increasing.

[laconicsax]

6. Mostly because everyone is conflating the two.

There's conflation on both sides. The virulent anti-Semites are too stupid to understand the difference and the pro-Israli government crowd has made a concerted effort to demonize its opponents by playing the anti-Semite card.

Another aspect is that a lot of Jews (at least the ones in my experience) are guilted into blindly supporting Israel. Hell, my rabbi's sermon at the the last Yom Kippur I observed before dropping the god nonsense had doublespeak about remembering that'Beit Kol-Yisrael' (or whatever it is) and the State of Israel are different things so it's important to treat criticism of one as an attack on the other.

Constant references to Israel as the 'Jewish State' also makes it difficult for idiots to understand.

I'm tempted to suggest that Christians (or white people for that matter) should just go back to Europe too. I wonder how those defending Thomas would react.

ETA: Here's an example of a Jewish group conflating the two from a http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4417240">fresh thread in LBN: http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/101801-jewish-dem-group-urges-lawmakers-not-to-sign-kucinich-letter-on-flotilla">link

[LeftishBrit]

7. As one who spends a lot of time on I/P...

I do sometimes wonder. Some of this is just people getting all polarized when they probably agree with each other on most things but pick up on particular words that are 'red rags to a bull'. But some of it is that there are a certain number of anti-war people who are not progressives, but xenophobic isolationists, and who can be influenced by the 'Zionists are controlling the world' nuttery. And then there are the Israeli Right, who are the biggest xenophobic isolationists around, and doing their best to antagonize everyone and drive their country into the ground. The similarities between Avigdor Lieberman, Pat Buchanan and Nick Griffin often amaze me.

I avoid talking much about Israel to many of my Jewish/ Israeli friends and relatives unless I know they are peace-campers, because they tend to think that people like me are pro-Palestinian nutcases, if not frank traitors and Jewish antisemites. But I do think that the Israeli government as they are now are an ENORMOUS danger to their own country and its survival as a democratic state, as well as immensely unjust toward the Palestinians. Then I come on DU and find that there are people who think I'm a 'Zionist shill' or 'mouthpiece for the Israeli death machine' because I am critical of Hamas, and/or because I don't think that Israel is responsible for everything bad that America or other countries do.

But I can survive on I/P without getting into massive flamewars most of the time - now the Health forum is another matter!!!

This leaves out the CT sites - which almost always end up blaming the Jews (and vaccinations!) for something sooner or later.

[TZ]

10. How can people not understand

How horrid it is to be told to be told to go back to the land where your ancestors were murdered? No one would think that telling black people to go back to Africa is okay! As having family killed in Poland I'm really depressed. Everytime Israel does something stupid this ugliness raises it's head. :(

[laconicsax]

11. I was just told that telling African Americans to go back to Africa is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT!!!!!!!!!

After all, the descendants of slaves didn't choose to be here, but the descendants of immigrants did.

[realisticphish]

12. they could have CHOSEN to stay oppressed in Germany

or far, far worse, if they had stayed longer.

And what the HELL would an American Jew from, say, Chicago, do in Poland? They are Americans (or Israelis, as this case is also discussing). DEAL WITH IT. That issue, if it ever was an issue, is completely irrelevant to the situation at hand, and makes the one who argues it look like a total douche

[laconicsax]

13. Relevance has never been a bar.

Which is exactly why people can't accept that "go home" is wildly inappropriate and offensive.

[LeftishBrit]

14. Not to mention, what would an Israeli Jew of Moroccan or Yemenite ancestry do in Poland?

Only about half of the Israeli Jews have Europaean ancestry.

[realisticphish]

15. very true nt

[laconicsax]

19. Apparently, now she was making a political remark.

By saying that the Israelis should go back to Germany and Poland, she was critcizing the Israeli government's blockade of Gaza. It's so obvious now! How did any of us miss that! I know that whenever I criticize a government's policies, I do so by talking about the country's citizens and not the policies or government itself.

What I find funniest is that the same people who always stress that criticism of the IsraelI government isn't criticism of all Jews now insist that criticsm of Jews is criticism of the Israeli government.

[TZ]

20. So, Maybe HT

should go back to whatever country her family is from since we took this country away from the Native Americans. :crazy:

[laconicsax]

21. Her parents were Lebenese immigrants.

Maybe she should go home to Lebenon.

BTW: This is a political remark criticizing the Obama administration's Afghanistan policy.

[TZ]

16. BWAHAHA: Jon Stewart had the best Helen Thomas comment

He said that they should just leave her seat at the White House Press Room empty for Elijah.....:rofl:

[realisticphish]

17. yeah, that was funny

i, too, was surprised at how many people got it right away; took me a few seconds before it clicked

[TZ]

18. I love Jon Stewart..

Its pretty evident to me that he grew up in a very similar household to mine...Secular/Reform Jewish. His Jew jokes really really are applicable to my life....:)

[Odin2005]

22. It drives me crazy!

Anytime I criticize Israel someone inevitably calls me an anti-Semite. :banghead:

Both sides need to grow up. Israelis need to get out of the occupied territories, dismantle the settlements, and get the "This is our land and we have a God-given right to ethnically-cleanse the occupied territories" idiots to STFU. The Pals need to drop the "drive the Jews into the sea" revanchism.

[laconicsax]

23. If there's anything to be learned from DU...

It's that criticism of the Israeli government is not the same as making anti-Semetic remarks and that making anti-Semetic remarks is the same as criticism of the Israeli government. :crazy:

[Orrex]

26. You're only saying that because you hate the Jooz.

[TZ]

29. I'm now fairly depressed

because two SUPPORT HELEN THOMAS are on the greatest page with hundreds of recs. Good damn the anti-semitism on this site is nauseating sometimes.x(

[SemiCharmedQuark]

30. Well the flowers thread seems more of a "let's remember the best of her"

At least that's what I took from it. I spoke with the OP about it and she agreed. That said, yes, sadly some of those people have argued there was nothing wrong with her statement.

Don't lose hope though. Just come talk to us heathen shill bastards here in the ssp group. I love this group because in addition to sharing an interest in science, I find the members to be much more moderate in discussing all topics, not just science ones.

[LeftishBrit]

31. One thing I like about this forum...

is that one can have rational discussions about topics that would go down in flames within three posts in other forums.

I think I can say here that the example of Israel is one reason why I have such a horror of religious anti-secular political parties or factions getting ANY foothold in a democracy. Together with the ultra-nationalists, they are bringing Israel down pretty fast. I realize that these groups are not the *only* reason for Israel's problems and actions (the Likud would be quite bad enough on its own), but they certainly contribute a lot of poison to the brew.

It's a relief to be able to say things like this without being either suspected of antisemitism, or told 'Oh yes! You are so right! Zionism has always been nothing but theocratic Jewish supremacism!'

[TZ]

32. Yes. I posted this here because I knew

this was the only way I could get a rational discussion of a very distressing topic. You guys didn't disappoint.:) :hi:

[realisticphish]

33. yeah

people here respect each other, regardless of the opinion. Things can be discussed calmly

[laconicsax]

34. No joke!

I never thought I'd say this, but it's almost relaxing to argue/debate cranks and loons in R/T, Science, and Health. The amounts of manufactured outrage on this board in some of the other forums are almost beyond the pale. It's almost impossible to disagree with anyone on any subject without getting 8 years of pent up vitriol towards * thrown back at you, not to mention having to put up with what feels like an increasing amount of sexism and racism.

Think that the Israeli government is in the wrong? You're a white supremacist neo-Nazi! How dare you!
Think that Hamas rocket attacks are bad? You're a Zionist supporter of apartheid!
Want out of Afghanistan? You want the President to fail!
Want to stay in Afghanistan? You're an imperialist asshole with a vendetta against Muslims!
Approve of Obama's policies? You're a closet Republican who hates America!
Disapprove of Obama's policies? You wish Sarah Palin were President and hate America!
Think that women are unfairly discriminated against in the workplace? Fuck you! You're wrong!
Think that racial profiling is wrong? You hate white people and believe that we should export all our jobs to India!

The list is practically endless.

DU in audio form: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8nmeNcFefI It's sad that this is, all too frequently, the level of discourse in GD

[SemiCharmedQuark]

35. That is EXACTLY how I feel

It's like...you can't take a middle position when sometimes that is the only thing that makes sense. So few things in life are black and white. I like some things Obama has done and really hate others. But it seems like the only thing this position gets me is hatred on all sides. I think that attacking the floatilla is wrong but I also think Israel is not being paranoid about its security.

[laconicsax]

36. Nice post, Hitler.

:hi:

[lazarus]

37. 36 posts to a Godwin

nice job, y'all. :D

[realisticphish]

38. we should start a godwin pool

like the no true scotsman pool in the AA forum :D

[laconicsax]

39. Thank you, thank you.

[LeftishBrit]

40. A variant on that...

is that if you are seen as taking a middle position, or being critical of both sides, on a particular issue (and in my case on DU this generally does mean the I/P issue), then some people assume that you are in general 'non-ideological' and close to the neutral point between left and right. Uh, no, I criticize both Likud and Hamas because they are BOTH FAR RIGHT, not because I'm non-committal between left and right. On at least two occasions this has led to people trying to persuade me to join in with the view that sometimes right-wing viewpoints are valid; that the left/liberals have no monopoly on truth; that some problems need right-wing approaches and some left-wing approaches; and even that it is 'bigoted' to reject a viewpoint just because it is right-wing.

I do accept a 'compromise' between left and right, inasmuch as I believe in democracy, and the chance for all to vote at the ballot-box to determine what sort of government we get. I accept that not all right-wingers are bad people on a personal level, and some of my best friends are Tories! I accept that sometimes it is necessary to form pragmatic coalitions - though I think Clegg rushed into it a bit more quickly than necessary. But none of this means that *I* am obliged to accept right-wing viewpoints as potentially valid!

[SemiCharmedQuark]

41. DU (or maybe the internet?) has a problem with the middle.

Remember the Iranian elections? People hated American foreign policy, Ahmadinajad hated American foreign policy, therefore Ahmadinejad must be right! They attacked the people who protested the election!

Same thing with I/P. They don't like Israels actions on ABC or D. Hamas doesn't like Israel's actions on ABC or D (or E-Z). Therefore, let's defend Hamas all the time (even when they hang a 7 year old).

[TZ]

42. Oh god don't remind me.

There were people here who went to great lengths to say that Ahmadinajad wasn't TRULY a holocaust denier.It was truly disgusting.
I rarely post anywhere outside of here, sports and the Lounge because I just can't stand the black and white attitude here..

[SemiCharmedQuark]

43. And this is DU...a site that some argue is too pro Israel

Other progressive sites are much much worse.

You seriously have my sympathy. I'm Mexican. Everyone on DU loves my people...especially now that they decriminalized pot.

Pot and tacos. What's not to love?

[LeftishBrit]

48. Although the DU attitude to the British is mostly quite reasonable...

it's not ALWAYS a bed of roses, especially right now with the BP disaster.

[Codeine]

51. If I proclaim my everlasting love for the English,

will you promise to let us win today? Please?

:D

[SemiCharmedQuark]

54. They gave us a free goal. Not too shabby!

[Codeine]

55. Quite generous of them. nt

[LeftishBrit]

57. In return...

could you please take the Daily Mail, Express, most of the writers for the Torygraph, and George Osborne and KEEP them? Just like you already kindly did with Wakefield. We don't need them back. We could throw in Prince Charles if you *really* want.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

62. No sale! Maybe if you guys hadn't blocked Altidore's goal, we could have talked.

[Codeine]

45. "I want to see the REAL translation."

How many times does DU fall back on that tired argument?

[laconicsax]

61. Hey, you're either with us or against us!

:hide:

[Codeine]

44. God, I remember a certain DUer

(with what I would consider near-Stalinist tendencies) vociferously attacking the honesty of the Iranian protesters and cheering on the Iranian security forces. And dozens of folks assumed it was a CIA black op. :eyes:

We're a weird lot here, aren't we?

[SemiCharmedQuark]

46. The next time someone says "Nobody is saying the JEWS, just Israel"

"So the jews have been kicked out of almost every country in the world. I have a buddy that's been kicked out of almost every bar in Baltimore. But we his fr tend to think HE has the problem. Not the rest of the world. Hint. Hint. After you've tend to think HE has the problem. Not the rest of the world. Hint. Hint. After you've kicked out of 10 or 20 countries. That might be a good time to start thinking maybe kicked maybe ones with the problem."


From the IP forum

[Codeine]

52. Holy Jebus, that's a real post!

How on Earth is Wizard777 not fucking Tombstoned for that one? :wow:

[TZ]

53. That's the one

Who claims to have an IQ of 222. Add a decimal point in front maybe.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

56. Oh well then...maybe the Jews really *were* reponsible for the Black Death

Who am I to question a genius?

[Codeine]

58. Got his motherfucking ass pizza'd, finally. nt

[LeftishBrit]

59. Phew!

He was very bizarre - among other things, playing the age-card: "I am 78 years old so have some patience!" Well, if he is truly 78 years old, he is old enough to remember the war, Hitler, and the revelations about the Holocaust, which makes his remarks even more inexcusable.

[mr blur]

47. This discussion is far too respectful and rational!

Couldn't somebody say something provocative?

36 posts to get to a Godwin is just... sad.

Call yourselves DUers?

Doesn't anyone here hate Elton John or feel that he owes them the right to choose for whom he should play the piano? You're not true liberals at all!

[LeftishBrit]

49. Elton John is just a shill for Big Yak!

It's the TWOOF! Haven't you heard?

[mr blur]

50. Well, no shame in that surely?

Aren't we all?

[realisticphish]

60. now

if he were working for the Evil Empire of Big Gnu...

[TZ]

63. wow over 60 posts and not ONE

Deleted message? What is wrong with you people? :rofl:
Could you imagine what would have happened if I posted this in GD?!

[Codeine]

64. According to a recent GD response to something I said

"You septics get a pass; you're a protected group." The mods just have extra love for us, man. :evilgrin:

[realisticphish]

65. HAHAHA

are they fucking serious?

[mr blur]

68. Blimey, I must have missed that memo!

Can one of you send me a copy?

[LeftishBrit]

69. And me!

[Dr. Strange]

66. It's because of lazarus.

He tells the moderators that everything's cool in the Skeptic's Group. That's why we get to have lawn jarts and sex threads here and the rest of DU doesn't.

[LeftishBrit]

67. Speaking of which...

someone in a thread on I/P (yes, on I/P!) just defended RW Christians who oppose certain vaccines. And one of the more nonpartisan, pro-diplomacy posters of that forum just replied with a post that showed that on THAT issue she is the very reverse of nonpartisan or pro-diplomacy!

[SemiCharmedQuark]

70. No Jews should be allowed in the government!

That was in the same thread as the gem you found. Ugh. It makes my hair stand on end.

[realisticphish]

71. !

seriously?

[LeftishBrit]

72. If it's the post I'm thinking of (now deleted)...

it didn't quite say that in so many words, but ranted about how there are too many members of the government whose first loyalty is with Israel, and how it could be called treason, etc. Sounded very McCarthyite, or like Norman Tebbit about the British Asians and the 'cricket test'.

[realisticphish]

73. and JFK was controlled by the Pope?

blacch

[SemiCharmedQuark]

75. Yeah well...Ive seen that argument on DU re: Pelosi ans Sotomayor so...

Maybe I'm biased because I don't know anyone, Catholic or not, who gives a shit what the pope says

[SemiCharmedQuark]

74. It said there are too many Jews in government like weiner and schumer who have dual loyalty

And that they shouldn't be allowed in goverenment unless they could prove they were loyal to the United States


Of course it made no mention of how they could go about proving such a thing satisfactorally

[TZ]

76. That idiot Lieberman doesn't help the cause any

He really does make me ashamed of my heritage.