A point about children, mercury, autism, and 'a modern man-made epidemic'....

[LeftishBrit]

which is surprisingly rarely raised. I mentioned it on another thread elsewhere, but thought I'd also bring it up here.

The fact is that kids got far more mercury medicinally in the 19th and early 20th centuries than they do now.

Medicines often contained mercury, including laxatives and de-worming medicines given to children. Mercury was often present in *teething powders* used routinely for infants - in some countries until the 1950s. The quantities were much higher than those ever used in vaccines, and were certainly dangerous. Some children became sick with mercury poisoning. Some even died. None of this is in question.

The issue that arises is: how can you reconcile the *far greater* exposure of children to mercury in the past with the view that autism is a modern 'man-made epidemic' due to mercury in vaccines. If mercury in vaccines causes autism, then presumably the far greater amount of mercury in teething powders and childhood medicines in the past should have caused much more autism. So either autism is not a modern epidemic, or it isn't caused by mercury (which is not to say that mercury exposure is a good thing), or both.

[trotsky]

1. That's a very good point.

Rational, thought-out, analytical.

So it should come as no surprise that the anti-vaxers will ignore it. I mean, for Koresh's sake, mercury has been ELIMINATED from all the standard pediatric vaccines, and they're STILL harping on it. (Granted, the smarter ones - i.e., the ones who are snookering the rest of the flock - realized the futility of blaming mercury and have shifted now, either to aluminum, or to a much safer ground, claiming unspecified "toxins" are causing problems.)

[laconicsax]

2. Pfft. How DARE you bring rational thought and facts into the debate!

Next you'll be telling us that down isn't up, and that black isn't white!

[onager]

3. Very good points, thanks.

Recently I was watching a show about sex during the American Civil War period. Our "History" Channel was taking a break from ghosts and ancient aliens.

One of the experts mentioned there were very few treatments for veneral disease in the 1860's, one being salts of mercury. Among its common side effects - excessive involuntary drooling followed by the patient's teeth falling out.

I don't remember the exact statistics, but the historians also pointed out that both armies had astronomical levels of VD in that war. IIRC, at least one major battle was delayed because so many Union soldiers were on sick call with VD.

Ah, the good old days!

[LeftishBrit]

7. The treatment of VD with mercury even appears in folk songs

The well-known song 'The Streets of Laredo', about a murdered cowboy, seems to be a descendant of songs about people who are dying from VD and planning their funerals! An early version, 'St James' Hospital', has the hero state:

'If she had told me before she disordered me,
Had she but told me of it in time,
I might have had powders and salts of white mercury
But now I'm cut down in the height of my prime'

In another version, it is a girl who is dying, and she says:

'My poor heart is breaking, my poor head is aching, my body salivating and I'm bound to die!'

Apparently excessive salivation was one of the side-effects of mercury treatment.

[onager]

9. Thank you, as always. And we had the VD Radio Project!

I never knew that The Unfortunate Lad/Steets of Laredo also inspired the song St. James Infirmary. Which I voted One of the Creepiest Songs Ever when I first heard it as a youngster. I love that song, but it's sad enough to make the most incurable optimist think of suicide.

Your post made me go looking for other folk songs about VD, and I found some interesting info about our VD Radio Project:

...an experiment by the Public Health Service, began in the late 1940s, called "VD Radio Project" (the “VD” was a nicer way of saying venereal disease).

VD Radio Project's goal was to educate the public and dispel taboos about syphilis, gonorrhea, and other venereal diseases.

...the series consisted of fifteen minute episodes. Some were straight radio dramas, and some were real life stories and voices from those affected by venereal diseases. But the episodes of "VD Radio Project" that had the most impact used a powerful weapon – popular musicians like Tom Glazer, Woody Guthrie, Sister Rosetta Tharpe, Merle Travis, Roy Acuff, and Hank Williams.

http://library.umkc.edu/blog/goldin-blog/vdradioproject

Pathetic Attempt To Stay On-Topic: the useless patent medicine "Hadacol" helped kill Hank Williams.

Pathetically Veering Back Off-Topic: I don't remember my mother singing any lullabies about VD, but I distinctly remember her singing me to sleep with this little jewel.

I really love its original title: William Grismond's Downfall, or A Lamentable Murther by him Committed at Lainterdine in the county of Hereford on March 12 1650: Together with his lamentation, sometimes known as The Bloody Miller.

In the USA, it was fortunately known by the much shorter title "Knoxville Girl:"

She fell onto her bended knee,
For mercy she did cry.
"Oh, Willie, my dear, don't kill me here!
For I'm not prepared to die."

She never spoke another word,
I only beat her more
I beat her till the ground around
Stood in a bloody gore.

I grabbed her by her long yellow hair,
I dragged her 'round and 'round,
Then I threw her in the still water deep,
That flows through Knoxville town.

[Orrex]

4. Oh please

Widespread exposure to mercury in the 19th and early 20th centuries created a genetic predisposition to mercury-sensitivity, which in subsequent generations would naturally manifest as a spate of neurological disorders.


See how easy it is? When you reason by wishful thinking, anything is possible!

[Odin2005]

5. Also, mercury poisoning causes PSYCHOTIC illnesses, not autism.

Psychotic disorders and ASDs are neurologically opposite.

[laconicsax]

6. That may be true in the real world, but in anti-vax land...

All neurological problems are caused by mercury and other "toxins," and all developmental disorders are autism.

So you see, psychosis and autism aren't polar opposites in most respects, they're exactly the same and caused by the MMR vaccine.

[trotsky]

10. "all developmental disorders are autism"

Don't forget - mitochondrial disorders are ALSO autism.

[laconicsax]

11. I thought that those were examples of perfect health... n/t

[trotsky]

12. Well sure they are...

UNTIL THEY GET A DEADLY VACCINE!!!!1!ZOMGWTFBBQ!!ELEVENS

[TZ]

8. These are the same people

Who push the snake oil treatments that the FDA was established to eliminate. So don't expect rational arguments. Really the fact that in 1983 Congress took action because they feared the monetary and governmental influence of homeopaths and herbal supplement sellers is totally ignored as well, so you shouldn't count on logic. Also I've never seen one fucking woo say eating fish causes autism- where the levels of Mercury are much much higher. Wait I forget, the magical properties of fish oil cancels it out!:sarcasm: honestly these folks know nothing of kindergarten chemistry or biology , so your logic is pointless...as soon as I hear anyone refer to the "long term effects" of vaccines is exposing themselves as scientific morons anyway. Does not anybody learn about the spleen and what antibodies are ?

[Deep13]

13. But, but, but chemicals and stuff! Here's proof vaccines cause brain damage.

Jenny McCarthey and Jim Carey were vaccinated as youngsters. They are morons. Ergo, vaccines make people stupid.

It's just that simple! :crazy:

[dmallind]

14. Not a woo merchant myself BUT

even woo merchants implicitly accept that the rise in autism is in part diagnostic. They may well call it "better detection" or "more advanced diagnosis" but it would be very easy, and perhaps true per se (not as a link to mercury) to respond that autistic children in those eras were simply called "problem children" at best and "mental defectives" at - medically speaking - worst.

[onager]

15. TV show link...

Last week I watched a NatGeo show, Inside the Body of Henry VIII.

It had some fascinating stuff about 16th-century medical care, including a live, on-camera "bleeding" with a hungry leech (using a volunteer).

The show's experts covered the theory that Henry may have had syphillis, since his wives often had miscarriages or stillborn babies. Conclusion - he probably didn't.

They noted that even in those days, it would have been very hard to keep such information quiet. And the only treatment available - good ol' mercury - caused such visible changes in the patient that Henry could not have appeared in public for weeks at a time.

Henry's doctors still treated patients using the "humors" theory. When mercury caused the patient to both salivate and sweat profusely, the doctors thought it was a good thing - evidence that the Bad Humors of syphillis were coming out of the body.

http://www.suite101.com/content/inside-the-body-of-henry-viii-a221487