I'm sick of humoring my woo-woo mother

[Orrex]

My wife and I are expecting our second son in the next week or so. Every phone call with my mother now begins "I asked the pendulum" about whatever divination she's performed since we last spoke, and I can't take it anymore.

My mother is a grown woman who has believed in Reiki and spirit guides and reincarnation and pendulum divination and the importance of baptism for at least as long as I can remember, and she's firmly in the "what's the harm" cult whenever I try to discuss the absurdity of it with her. I see her maybe once or twice a year, and if she wants to believe that her $20 copper bracelet really helps her sciatica, I don't care. But I have no desire to smile and humor her in her idiotic new age musings. I've done it long enough.

The most infuriating thing is that she knows what I think of it, but she trudges merrily on without regard to my views. In fact, I know from countless prior conversations that she thinks of my atheism (and my skepticism in general) as a phase that will pass once I've opened my eyes, and she's taken it upon herself to open them for me.

Frankly, I just want to say "You're a crazy old woman, and your clear lack of respect for me has offended me for more than twenty years," but I realize that this might be over the top. I can even force myself to deal with it during our weekly phone conversations because, after all, she's 400 miles away. But when she visits in the next few weeks, and as my sons grow up, I am strongly confident that she plans to impart her new age wisdom to my sons, and I refuse to tolerate that.

I work with a woman who chose not to baptize her daughter and who actually had to take steps to make sure that at least one grandmother wouldn't kidnap the child to perform a clandestine baptism. My mother, for all of her lifelong insanity, isn't quite that bad, but I have no doubt that she would try to undermine my efforts to show my children the value of reason and critical thinking.

You may infer from this that I have unresolved anger issues, and far from denying that, I embrace it. But this strikes me as an entirely different matter; her conscious and endlessly demonstrated lack of respect is a deliberate insult and a gross imposition every time it comes up.

I can't put up with her woo-woo bullshit anymore, and I intend to make damn sure that my children never have to.

So what the hell do I do?

[qnr]

1. Well, as far as "What is the harm" -- not seeing your grandchild because of it might be a point n/t

[Orrex]

2. Hey, that's good!

I'm not usually one for issuing an ultimatum, but it's not as though I'd be doing it out of spite or vengeance. I have serious concerns about the effect of her woo-woo-ism on my children's intellectual development, so I think that I'm justified in setting some ground rules.

Thanks for the thought!

[qnr]

3. I know what you mean. She is fully aware of your feelings on the matter. n/t

[jberryhill]

15. "the effect of her woo-woo-ism on my children's intellectual development"

Umm... she's your mother and has believed this stuff "as long as you can remember".

Were you raised by wolves outside of the home?

[Orrex]

38. That's a fun and entirely fair question

I've been atheist as long as I can remember, since even before I had ever learned the word. I always knew that I didn't believe, and I didn't even understand how other people could believe, because it seemed so clearly absurd to me. My disbelief in general supernatural matters came somewhat later, mostly following my move to college.

However, my mother is one of those tepid Catholics who doesn't like Catholicism but likes the whole "God" idea and supplements her worldview with a mishmash of woo-belief gleaned from the cornucopia of modern credulousness. Ever since I was old enough to discuss these things with her, she's talked down to me about it, mocking my views as childish or immature or poorly thought out. And even now, when we chance to talk about it, her vibe is the same: some day I'll get through this phase and see the light.

So it's not that a critical thinker can't come of age in such an environment, but in my experience it was stressful and difficult to explore my own ideas on the matter when those ideas were mocked the primary adult in my life.

Mommy issues? Once upon a time, maybe, but not very actively anymore. Still, it would be nice if she would respect my beliefs and my wish to raise my children as my wife and I deem fit.


And anyway, shouldn't you be over in the Dungeon arguing for the OCT?

[Q3JR4]

44. I would agree with qnr...

They may be her grandchildren but they're your children. You can choose to (or not to) let her into their lives in any way you want.

It may be a bit mean, but I'd also argue that the harmful mind viruses should be put down even if that's not quite "humane" if you know what I mean.

Q3JR4.

[trotsky]

4. Just take your desired statement...

and strip off the "you're a crazy old woman" part. Try to frame it as her showing a total lack of respect for your beliefs. *She* should be feeling the guilt here, not you. She got her chance to screw you up, now it's your turn with your kids, and she needs to acknowledge that.

Check on some parent boards, too. Often you'll find someone who was in the same spot you were in, and maybe has some more specific advice.

Good luck. Stories like yours make me glad my parents don't really give a shit about being grandparents!

[jgraz]

5. This is probably impossible given the baggage built up...

but I was witness to a solution to a similar situation that I thought worked nicely. After one Christmas dinner at my brother's, his fundie mother-in-law started off on one of her rants against evolution, "fags" and anything not approved of in the old testament. This was directed at everyone in the room, but clearly meant for the ears of my two nephews, ages 8 and 10.

My sister-in-law started one of those slow burns that adult children reserve for their parents, but my brother just started asking his mother-in-law questions about what she believed and why she believed it. She was more than happy to oblige, since what fanatics love talking about the most is their own twisted belief system. My brother stayed calm, respectful and didn't even challenge her that much. But by the end of their conversation, he had completely destroyed any credibility she had with her grandchildren.

She left happy, thinking she had educated (perhaps even converted!) everyone in the room. As soon as the door closed, one of my nephews asked, "What's wrong with Grandma?" Beautiful.

[PADemD]

6. Be kind to your mother. Some day she won't be around

to humor any more.

[Seldona]

40. I'm with you.

I would give up ten years of my life to have one of those, 'So are you ready to accept Jesus?' phone calls with my dad now that he is gone.

Personally I let my children know what my beliefs are, and that there are many other beliefs that people may feel very strongly about. But I let them know that is a journey that they will have to take themselves, and that I will love and support them no matter where their journey leads them. (Within reason!) Doesn't mean I won't question it, but lovingly, and with guidance in mind. Believe me with your guidance your kids can handle this situation.

I never cut off time with my father for his christian beliefs and he did share them with the children. The children asked to go to church once, which I supported, and never asked again. In fact I got a roll of the eyes from my eldest daughter. lol

I know they will experiment with many different ideologies and identities while growing up, but I believe I have given them the tools to handle it. And if not, hey it is a free country. So far anyway...

[Redneck Socialist]

7. Grin and bear it

Easier said than done, I know. Granted I don't know your family situation, but she's your mom and as the previous poster said, she ain't gonna be around forever so roll your eyes and make nice.

[Random_Australian]

8. Just remember to have a talk with your kids before she arrives -

(if they are talking).

I was thinking along the lines of "your grandmother is coming around. Don't worry about how she believes in some strange things. Just believing makes her feel better, even if the things are very strange" :)

[Orrex]

9. So here's a funny follow-up

For the record, she's still just as much a hardcore woo as ever, but we've achieved a sort of arrangement whereby such issues simply don't come up in conversation, and there is much rejoicing.

In a recent phone call, though, I mentioned that my older son (4.5 years) is somewhat afraid of loud thunder. Not the mild background rumbles, but those really shattering ka-booms you sometimes get, seemingly right overhead. We do our best to reassure him, as parents will, but he still gets nervous about it.

My mother light-heartedly suggested that we tell my son that the sound of thunder is just God and the angels bowling.

I said "That won't work, because he doesn't know what bowling is."

After a moment, I added, "Or angels."

And after another moment: "Or God."


I had a pretty good laugh about it, and even she seemed to find it humorous. No doubt she ran to her pendulum to ask it what to do next, but for now at least I feel as though I scored a minor rhetorical victory...

[LeftishBrit]

10. Sounds really irritating...

but, especially as it sounds as though she lives quite far away, I doubt that her views will affect your children. Unless there are other things about her, it would do more harm IMO for them to be cut off from their grandmother. If they know that their parents don't believe these things, I don't think they'll be influenced.

My mum's cousins, whom I saw frequently as a child, are, while not into religious woo, seriously into the alternative-medicine variety. It never affected me - I just thought they were a bit nuts on the subject.

[LaurenG]

11. *knock - knock* I don't usually come in here, sorry to intrude but,

I am someone who would be considered a woo, and I think you should tell her that you've had enough and that you don't want to hear about it anymore. She's clearly overstepping her boundaries and you would be wise to "help her" stop it. Let her know that there is no difference between what she's doing and what the Jehovah's wittinesses etc. do.

I know she is just trying to "share" but she is clearly violating your boundaries and space doing this to you.

With that said, parents always think they know best and it's our job as their kids to kindly and firmly let them know that we need to learn and decide on our own. Even at my age my mother still thinks she should advise me.

Best wishes for a happy outcome with this.

[Warpy]

12. I sold health food for years

and felt great about the whole foods aspect of it and loved teaching how to cook the stuff so that even kids accepted it gladly. My sticking point was always with the vitamin pill heads. It seems the more I'd tell them that exceeding the RDA only gave them expensive urine, the more pills they'd buy. Eventually it dawned on me that the mere act of taking a pill was giving them a lift from the placebo effect and I got a little more tolerant. Very little.

Parents are even tougher. There is no way to educate a parent, although some payback potty training is in order in extreme cases. When mine went through a mercifully brief Lamebawl period and would start to rant, I'd just leave, go for a walk, find a convenience store and some junk food, whatever. When I'd get back I'd ask, "Are you done?" They got the point and the ranting stopped.

I guess the best course is to realize she's going to go on merrily finding her own way to hell no matter what you think and tune it out. She wouldn't be doing all the woo unless she was getting something out of it, so the best bet is to let her rant and rave and not comment at all.

If she crosses the line into trying to dictate what you should do, then leave.

[dropkickpa]

13. My maternal grandmother

is VERY Catholic, and she seems to ignore my mothers atheism because she went to catholic school for 13 years. But when it comes to me, and Dropkid (she ignores my brothers existance because they've all found excuses to not visit for the last 15 years), she was on a tear for 2 years about me and DK not being baptised and we were going to hell and she feared for our immortal souls, and I was horrible for forcing this on a child, etc. Finally I pulled her to the side during a family visit and calmly said "Grandma, I love you and respect you, but if you continue to be rude and disrespectful to me, I will not visit, and I will refuse to allow my daughter to be exposed to this type of toxic environment. I'm the only one of mom's kids who's been able to tolerate it for the 15 years, and this is it. I'm done."

Since then, she's actually been quite pleasant to be around, at least compared to before. I still get continuously hassled and put down, but at least it's not about religion and just her usual sunny pleasantness, but I at least feel safe to let my daughter visit (I refuse to anymore, but she's nice to Dropkid).

[Evoman]

14. This one is easy. Drive a rusty nail through her pendulum.

If possible, nail it to a piece of the qu'ran.

[CanSocDem]

16. Ya but....

...since it is common for children to rebel against their parents values (like you did), aren't you afraid that YOUR children will grow up rebelling against your values....?????

Having never experienced the 'privilege'....

... :rofl: ....of raising children, I wouldn't know for sure, but I think exposing children to the widest selection of opinions, values and world views gives them the tools to think globally. Of course, if what you are after is your own little posse' to think like you and be like you, then for sure, keep those blinders on.

After all, we all know that children are born bad and have to be taught to be good.


.

[Orrex]

17. Here's how I look at it

I will teach my children the tools of critical thought, and I will allow them to reach their own conclusions on matters of faith and other supernatural phenomena. But one is 4.5 years and the other is 21 months, so it'll be a while before they're ready to learn much more than the basics of critical thinking.

If, when they are older, they choose to believe in the supernatural, I will respect that, even if I disagree with it. Nor will I force my views upon them or their children, unless they ask.

[CanSocDem]

18. Fair enough, but....

...I think you need an open mind to facilitate "critical thought". If you can give them the courage to confront objectionable realities, I would be satisfied that you had done your job as a parent.

However, dismissing the influence of "faith" will probably cause them irreparable harm....


.

[Orrex]

19. The influence of faith is undeniable

The validity of faith is very questionable. And I'm talking of transcendent faith here, faith in things that can't be proven or even demonstrated. I contrast this with the mundane sort of faith that says the light will come on when I flip the switch. The latter isn't "faith" at all; it's an assumption based reasonably on extrapolation of experience.

To be honest, I don't even care if people have faith in all kinds of crazy stuff, except insofar as I might not choose to associate with someone who believes too many wacky things without question. But when a person uses his own faith as an argument for why someone else should believe (as in the case of anyone who says "you just aren't attuned to it," etc.), then the gloves are off and no holds barred.

Additionally, woo-woo's absolutely love to claim that skeptics lack an open mind. The purpose of making such an accusation is two-fold:
1. It's an obvious ad hominem intended to undermine the validity of the skeptics views and/or arguments.

2. It's an attempt to deflect the argument from "does this woo-woo phenomenon really exist?" to "is the skeptic closed-minded?"

The former is a straight up fallacy, and the latter is act of rhetorical cowardice. And the accusation itself is almost entirely false.

If you look long and hard in this Group and at the posts written in other DU Forums by people who post here, you'll see that few if any of us are closed-minded. I, for one, would be delighted if a wide range of woo-woo phenomena were true as advertised. But my strong wish that it were so is exactly what drives my skepticism, because I refuse to let my zeal overcome my reason.

[CanSocDem]

20. I was careful....

...not to say 'you lacked an open mind', just that it was required for "critical thought".


But the 'faith' I was talking about is exactly the kind that produces results. Your faith in electronic engineering works because the "light comes on".

I'm from a remote jungle tribe and I believe it is magic. I could ask our witch doctor because he cured a painful physical condition I had, with a cup of liquid. He knows everything.


.

[Orrex]

21. Oops. I was *NOT* careful

My loose wording strongly implied that I was accusing you of calling me closed-minded. That was not my intent, and I apologize.

I would, however, maintain that a "faith" that is only perpetuated because its expectations are reward is inherently different from transcendent faith in spiritual, divine, or supernatural phenomena that can't be proven or demonstrated.

[TZ]

22. Here's where you go wrong

You might "believe" that the light switch is magic..but that doesn't change the fact that electicity is the flow of electrons.
I'm sorry, but your lack of objectivity and understanding of basic scientific principles does not alter the fact that they *work*.
And they are repeatable and demonstratable--you just live with blinders on and refuse to "believe"---


Sorry Orrex but I'm quite tired of this nonsense in an otherwise rational forum.

[CanSocDem]

23. Why don't you calm down....

....and try to understand the essence of this discussion.

Have you ever heard of a metaphor? Do you know what it is....????

Zoology degree.....???!!!

.

[TZ]

24. I'm sorry

Did you read my mind? Some of us live real lives..not metaphorical lives.
And I don't appreciate your comments to Orrex..who obviously is a much more diplomatic person than me. Teaching critical thinking skills does NOT equate to one being---ummm--not open to "possibilities". I think he's a fine parent, IMHO.
And honestly, I don't know why you post here, except to aggravate.

[CanSocDem]

25. I don't know why YOU post here...eom

[TZ]

26. Why don't you ask any of the regular posters here

Including Orrex. I belong in this group--I'm a skeptic. You are anything but.
I suggest you read the mission statement of this group..AGAIN.

[CanSocDem]

27. You really don't get it.

I understand that you see yourself as the 'party hostess' and that you want to control all the conversations and pour the drinks etc.....

However, I hardly think I'm anything BUT skeptical. Just the same, you probably sensed that it was of your reality that I am most skeptical. But, I will indulge you.....


.

[cosmik debris]

28. If she is the

'party hostess', you are the belligerent drunk that embarrasses himself by talking too loud and saying all the wrong things.

Every party has one and you are it.

[TZ]

29. :)

Nice one. Funny how nobody else here seems to have a problem with me....:shrug:

[cosmik debris]

30. Thanks, I'll have a Cuba Libre,

Where is that tray of hors d'oeuvre?

[Orrex]

31. Horse what?!?

What kind of party is Turtlensue running here, anyway?

[cosmik debris]

35. She throws a classy party

But she needs to hire a better bouncer.

[Q3JR4]

45. Horse Brutality!?

Q3JR4.
Why? Because I can.

[dropkickpa]

32. I was thinking more along the lines of the

Dick in the mashed potatoes guy.

[cosmik debris]

34. That was a different party

That was his contribution to the "Getting to know you" thread.

[dropkickpa]

39. Oh yeah!

[Orrex]

37. Ah, yes. The old "pud in the spuds" trick. Charming!

A better bouncer is indeed much needed.

[LeftishBrit]

33. Turtlensue - as the party hostess, could you give me a really big glass of wine?

I think I need one after some of the comments I've been wading through!

[Orrex]

36. That guy brought his own whine

Or, as ya'll across the pond would have it, "whinge."

[varkam]

43. Um...because she's a skeptic? eom

[CanSocDem]

41. A last word...

...even though you may have 'offed your mom by now.

On Children

"......You may give them your love but not your thoughts,
For they have their own thoughts.
You may house their bodies but not their souls,
For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow,
which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams.
You may strive to be like them,
but seek not to make them like you.
For life goes not backward nor tarries with yesterday...."

Kahil Gibran

http://www.katsandogz.com/onchildren.html

[cosmik debris]

42. Yeah but,

You are still stuck with the nick name "Pud In The Spuds"

And you can never live that down.

[Q3JR4]

46. And I think that

(as far as I can tell right now) these are the last words.

Q3JR4.

[Orrex]

47. I've begun to suspect that my son will be just fine

During a recent phone call I mentioned to my mother that he's really afraid of thunder.

"Tell him that it's just God bowling," said the well-meaning woo matriarch.

"That won't work," I said. "He doesn't know what bowling is, and he's never heard of God."



His little brother will still have to pass through her craziness unscathed, but my optimism has been bolstered!

[jberryhill]

48. I'd wonder aloud why lying is a good strategy /nt