What does it take to make a living as a musician?

[Don Claybrook]

This is something I posted on another music forum on another website (jazz-related). I thought I'd post it here also in hopes of getting the opinions of some of DU's knowledgeable musicians.

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Hi. I’m ready to be laughed out of the forum for this question, but here goes anyway: just how hard is it to make a “decent” living playing jazz, or in some music career in general? By “decent” living, I mean replacing my current salary, which is respectable money in an area with a fairly low cost of living? I’m aware that there are a small handful of people who make what I would consider large sums of money, and I’m aware of the rank-and-file ramen noodle stereotype, in which great musicians struggle to make ends meet. For clarity, allow me to state that no one would pay me a dime for my playing right now; I’m just not that good yet.

So why am I asking this crazy question? Because this is my first day back at work after the holiday break, and I find myself wondering what in the world I’m doing here. I’ve heard all of my life, as I’m sure you have, that one should do something one enjoys as a career. And I used to enjoy my IT career, but in the last several years, it seems to have turned into a neverending struggle to keep from being laid off. I really don’t want to live this way.

You may be inclined to tell me that if I love music enough (and I really do love the music), the money won’t be that important. And I understand that, but I also have kids and bills and all that sort of fun stuff to take care of, so I have to be a pragmatist about the whole thing.

So if I meet some prerequisites, like being single-minded and obsessed about playing, about learning, about all things music, and if I progress to the point where I’m a good, solid jazz player (yes, I expect this to take years), is it even conceivable for me to believe I can switch to a music career eventually, one in which I could earn enough money to pay the bills? Or would it be easier for this 36-year old to enter the astronaut program?

Life is short—do what you love to do. That’s the phrase that keeps coming back to me, along with images of me trying to run on this corporate hamster wheel forever in an attempt to keep from being thrown clear. Is this a fool’s errand, or is there some niche in which I might eventually fit? I’m willing to work for it, and I’m expecting any sort of permanent change to take several years to affect, but that would be OK, so long as I have a plan.

Thanks for any thoughts you have on this subject.

[leftofthedial]

1. it really helps if you start out with moderate-to-severe brain damage

but if you don't already have it, don't worry. you will before long.

music is a hard, hard career path.

[Ron Green]

2. Don't quit your day job

as long as you have the kids and the bills. I don't see much of a chance for a living-wage arrangement, especially if you're going to stay in Louisville. Have you checked out the jazz market there? Who's working steady, and who's making a living? If you do decide to do this, I would advise:

* Study jazz, but play all styles, any kind of pop schlock that the gig calls for.
* Get a bunch of students, and create a teaching job for yourself. Make them pay up front by the month, even if they're going to miss a lesson now and then.
* Hook up with some churches, find out who's got the best music program and work into a paying position there.
* Put together some jazz players who can work in different combinations and make friends with every caterer and party planner in town, and have somebody available for any engagement.

Unfortunately, our society so little values live music that making a living in it is akin to working as an iceman or a shepherd.

[cleofus1]

3. you must above all else

reserve a space on your mother's couch...
and marry a woman with low expectations...

[ProfessorGAC]

4. Sacrifice & Luck

Lots of people succedd despite marginal talent. Lots of highly talented folks are starving. There is a lot of perseverance and luck involved.
The Professor

[FredStembottom]

14. Luck, yes, but ever more important every day.....

youth and cute looks dressed in the proper fashion pose of the moment.
The pose is EVERYTHING. Talent? Barely required anymore.

I know you are asking about jazz - but this pretty-poser thing is creeping in there, too. Seems like the truly gifted jazz musicians barely get by.

Cranky? Yes I am, today.x(

[Ron Green]

19. That's why so many people say they're going to SEE a band,

rather than hear them. Figuring out if they sound good or not is beyond most Americans, but it's easy to spot the style.

[Beetwasher]

31. Mostly Luck Though

And/or connections.

[paulk]

5. the difference between an amateur musician and a pro -

an amateur is someone who works 40 hours a week so he can do music

a professional is someone who's wife works 40 hours a week so he can do music


It's a tough business - I pursued that dream until my mid thirties
I saw people with less talent than I "make it"
I saw people with far more talent give it up and get a real job


It's a matter of preserverance and, unfortunately, luck. I have a ton of respect for anyone who
can make a living doing music. Even the one's who suck.

One thing I do know - the bug never goes away

[cleofus1]

6. come to think of it....

being pretty helps...i can remember from the age of dinasaurs...those battle of the bands in so cal...i was amazed at how many times the prettier groups won...while the group that i thought was more talented had to slink away in their ugliness...it's not the end all...but does remind of the song from joe jackson..."pretty boys"....

[InsultComicDog]

7. I used to make about $500 a week on average playing music

...and I was doing better by far than most.

[Ron Green]

8. The sad thing is that, relative to inflation, the money from gigs has gone

DOWN over the past 30 years. I was playing casuals in the early '70s and making $35 a night, which was enough to buy a brand-new Volvo (cost: $2800.) Now the same type of gigs pay maybe $75-80 a night, which is much less.

[InsultComicDog]

9. Right

The time frame I was talking about was about 20 years ago... so as you can see I was doing pretty well. It was very seasonal - seven days a week in the summmer, sometimes only two days a week in the winter.

But it was mostly one night engagements with lots of travel. And there is nothing quite like the level of fatigue of working two months of one nighters in the summer and driving in between. And you really have to work even if you're sick, otherwise you're putting 9 other people out of work.

If anyone hasn't done it they have no idea how much tougher of a life it is than they would think.

[ProfessorGAC]

10. Same Here

I was playing in a piano bar in 1974 and 1975 (summers between semesters) 5 days a week for $40 per night plus tips. I probably made about $270 per week!

Now, a 4 piece band would be lucky to make $700 per night, before expenses. And, getting a 5 night booking would be REALLY tough. So, not only is the per night money weaker, but it's harder to get continuous bookings.

I blame DJ's. (Kidding!)
The Professor

[ComerPerro]

11. You say you're kidding, but I think you're on to something

"I blame the DJs"

Yeah...

That's the trend. Dance clubs, DJs. Live music seems to be fading.

Hell, going to see a certain DJ is considered by some people as "live music"

:puke:

[ProfessorGAC]

12. Mayhaps!

I do know for sure that they took the wedding gigs down to nearly zero. I never played many of those, but a lot of bands i've known did, and that killed probably 10 of their Saturday gigs per year. And, weddings tended to pay better than a lot of bar gigs for these bands. (Maybe $500 instead of $300.)

So, for sure that market dried up as DJ's became common.

I agree that it's silly to suggest that it's "live" music when it's someone just playing other people's records for pay. But, whatever makes people happy, i guess.
The Professor

[FredStembottom]

15. A faint hope...........

Considering the way things usually go - maybe the "DJ" thing just sets up the next generation to start the Actual Live Band Revival!

So about 2010, expect kids to be really sick of DJ's and bring back live bands - just because.

"DJ's?!?!? That's so 1999!":boring:

[ProfessorGAC]

16. Fingers Crossed! (eom)

The Professor

[InsultComicDog]

13. I think also

that the bar business has transformed. We have "sports bars" and a number of local taverns that are more upscale than they used to be, and the clubs that still book live acts aren't booking as many live acts, and not for as many days. And even some of those acts are the same ones playing these clubs for years, so there's a difficult entry barrier. And as always there are different circuits for different types of bands.

I was in a seven piece band with a crew of three - a sound man, a light man, and a roadie to help with the load-in and load-out. I think even today you would either need to think fairly big, and put on the type of show you can't put on with four or five people, or to go small (3 or less) so that you can divide the small income up less ways.

[Nordmadr]

17. My thoughts on this are to network with folks in your area having

some degree of success. If they can't use you, they may still get you noticed enough. Playing out for free at first I am sure would help. This all assumes that there is a degree of skill attained as well.

1) Get exeperience and over your nerves.

2) Develop a following of people that like to listen to you.

3) Have samples of performing

Me, I just started playing the guitar less than two years ago, I'm 32 years old. I have just never been able to shake the bug of wanting to do something with music...but I sure am not quitting my day job. After years of thinking about it, I just decided to ge a guitar and start taking lessons. If nothing else, I enjoy it for me.

My instructor has twice brought me out with his group to play with him while the others were taking a set break. First time was ok, second time was much better. Both times I was doing it for free, well I did get free drafts. I would do it for free all the time, but wouldn't it be nice...

For me, alot more work will be needed to improve my skills in general. What I have going for me is a pretty good voice. I hope to be able to do a few shows every now and then for money and if it goes further than that, great. If not, I still will enjoy myself. The key for me is keeping my expectations low.

Olafr

[leftofthedial]

18. a living? in music?

is this another joke thread?

[Idylle Moon Dancer]

20. protectomatic ?

I don't really know how effective they are, but I'm going to set up a meeting with them when I finish my demo. If you're in Kentucky they might be completely useless to you, but maybe they know of a similar outfit in your area.

protectomatic.com

[Ron Green]

21. Don C. never posted back here. I wonder if he started working

as a musician, and had to sell his computer?

:P

[Bonhomme Richard]

22. If you are single and promote yourself, then maybe.

If you have a family to support then it will be tough.
The best bet for doing it is to work solo. You won't charge as much but at the end of the day there will be more money in your pocket. Also, you will find more places willing to pay you $100 to $200 bucks a gig than venues that can afford to pay $1,00 or better to a large band.
I tell my kids that the most I ever make a night is $150. If I'm solo I make $150, If I'm in a 7 piece band, after the split I make $150. Always seemed to work out that way.
Played a short opening gig at a local watering hole New Years Eve. Played 2 hours, collected $150 and was home by 11PM. Not bad.
Good Luck.

[IowaGuy]

23. a stripper girlfriend?....ok, sorry, I know your serious....

forgive me, just couldn't resist the flippant answer.

My brother is one, he is devoted to playing, teaching, learning everyday and has been for over 30 years...however, even he had some dry spells where he had to do other things like sell office furniture to put food on the table and a roof over the head for his family...yet he always carved out some time every day for music. Besides the obvious, having talent, practice, etc...It seems to me you just have to be ungodly stubborn and never give up.

He plays jazz, does some studio work and tutoring...but the biggest part of his revenue stream comes from being a musical director at a church

[Dragonfly]

24. Like the ancient saying goes:

"Practice...practice...practice."

On top of that, I've been trying to figure this one out since my Canadian days 'twixt '75-'79.

Up there, I was teaching h.s. social studies and was w/a lady who was into learning guitar as much as me, so we had a good lift-off into that world. Nowadays, I play living room 12-string rhythm for meditative sanity maintenance.

However, I'm starting to discover how some singer-songwriter people are moving 'round the country in true-troubadour style by doing house concerts....try houseconcerts.com and see if there are any sites near you.

[jmowreader]

25. You do like Travis Barker does

And no, I don't mean wear a Mohawk and get tattooed all over your body.

Travis Barker does a LOT of things and some of them are only peripherally related to music, if that. He's got a fish taco restaurant. He owns the Famous Stars and Straps clothing company. He sells prerecorded beats. He is an endorser. Shall we go on?

Most people can't just be musicians.

How's your luthier skills? That would be cool, being a luthier during the day and a musician at night.

[CBGLuthier]

26. Live somewhere with lots of sunshine

And play on the street corners.

If you are good you will make good money. If you aren't well, you still may make money from people who pity you.

Check out the documentary Playing for Change. Oops, it isn't available on any media. IFC ran it a few months ago and there was a deaf trumpet player in it who made a few bucks and he could not even play, as you might imagine.

Oh and do whatever else you can to supplement making a living.

I haven't had a real job in years. I repair computers and make cigar box guitars and other musical instruments to sell. Gonna make my first hammered dulcimer this weekend.

It ain't easy but I hope I never have to work for anyone else again.

[MilesColtrane]

27. Very few people make enough money to support a family playing jazz.

I haven't had a day job in about fifteen years.

But, I don't have kids. I don't own a home. I'm driving a "new" 2001 SUV. And, I don't have health insurance.

My earnings have declined about %25 since 2000. (Not surprising with Bush in office)
This year may be slightly better.

While I do get hired to play a few jazz gigs, the vast majority of my income comes from other things.

Private Party/Wedding Band-Orchestra Pit/Musicals-Restaurant Gigs

You should be prepared to take any kind of gig and play any style of music.

It also depends on what instrument you play. Piano players and bass players work more than trombone players.

It is endlessly frustrating for so many reasons. It's no wonder that working musicians are a dark brotherhood.

But, if you've ever had one of those transcendent moments on the bandstand when your floating above yourself watching the music play you, you come back for more.

[smoogatz]

28. Did you hear the one about the Polish jazz musician?

He was in it for the money.

[DFW]

29. What does it take to make a living as a musician?

More patience, talent and youth than I have to offer.

I still do very occasional solo performances on 12 string (Leo Kottke clone wannabe),
but haven't done any real touring since the 1970s, when I got recruited by my current
outfit. The hours are long and it's sometimes dangerous, but the pay is good, and it's
rock solid (just marked 30 years, and am now station chief for Europe).

I would have loved the performing and the creative outlet, but would have lost my wife
to constant touring, and when the encores are over there's just that lonely hotel room.
I don't know how long I would have lasted, even if I had been a commercial success,and
there was about a 1% chance of that to begin with.

[DrDan]

30. an audience

the larger the better

[guitar man]

32. Hard work and compromise

From about 1985 to 1999, I played music almost exclusively for a living, or did something music related (ie running live sound, recording etc.) The first thing I found was that I had to be like a shark, if I stopped swimming, I'd die. when I wasn't gigging, I was out looking for gigs, when I wasn't doing that, I was rehearsing a new band etc etc etc. I might play with my "regualar" band on the weekend and play with 2 or 3 more bands doing fill-ins or whatever during the week, solo and duo gigs too.

The compromise part came alot in the difference between the music I wanted to play and the music I had to play. I made my absolute best money ever between 1990-1996 playing top 40 country, which I really didn't like.

My 20 year old nephew and his band approached me a while back looking for advice since they are all about to turn 21. They want to "hit the clubs and make some money". The first thing I did was pull out my old songlists of tried and true covers that people around here still want to here. Their response was "oh, we don't do covers, we do original emo and alternative grindcore" (or whatever the hell it is they call it that these kids do these days). My answer was, "get ready to starve, I only know one club in town that you can play doing all originals and he won't pay you a dime, tips only" the looks on their faces was priceless.

[abq e streeter]

35. Hit the clubs...

and make some money. I hope they decided which one... Many of you have probably heard the joke about the kid who told his mother " I want to grow up and be a rock and roll musician" and his mother replied "okay honey, just decide which one you want to do."

[smoogatz]

33. For most of the folks that manage it, the real answer is versatility.

It helps to be multi-instrumental: if you play guitar, you might want to also learn to play bass and to sing harmonies, at the very least. Guitarists are a dime a dozen, but good bass players can be hard to find, and vocals are always a plus.

Be proficient in all styles of music; you never want to have to turn down a gig because you don't do the country thing (or the jazz thing, or the 70s rock thing)--if you can play everything, you'll always be in demand.

Educate yourself: if you don't know music theory, learn it; your competition already has.

Get your studio chops down; that means learning to read charts, assembling a gear-package that's portable and sounds great in the studio with a minimum of set-up time, and doing your homework in advance--if you need to practice the part, do it before you go in to the studio. If you're going to make any money, you'll make it doing studio work, not playing in clubs.

Two other hints: live in a major metroplitian area with a lively music scene. L.A. is probably your best bet--if you can break into the movie thing (doing studio work for scores and soundtracks), you'll do just fine.

Last but never least, be a good person to work with: show up sober and on time (even for practice); help the drummer move his gear; don't say snide things about other players, even if they suck; stay out of band politics. Keep your energy positive and everyone will love you.

Okay, this is really the last thing: be incredibly talented. If you're not a stone cold natural with incredible chops, your chances of making a decent living in a competetive market are slim to none.

Hope this helps.

[FredStembottom]

34. A second job!

[abq e streeter]

36. Be practical

At least this is the situation here in Albuquerque/Santa Fe: hopefully you play either guitar or keyboard, or even better, both. That way you can do solo and duo gigs that can fill in week nights, happy hours etc...better pay because of not splitting the money up 5 ways...still can do larger bands on weekends if you want. The only guys I know here making a living playing do more solo and duo gigs than full bands... Learn bass too... If you're a wind guy like me, practice your ass off and be willing to play ANYTHING, even though I've gotten to the point where that just sort of defeats the purpose. If I had to spend my nights listening to music I don't particularly enjoy, then that becomes worse than having to have a day job. Best of luck to ya...

[grannylib]

37. An understanding spouse :-) eom

[MrsBrady]

38. well...

there is no short answer to this...
so feel free to send me a private message also...
but...

I've worked professionally in the music business...as a singer songwriter...and it is VERY HARD.
I know people on many different "money" levels and fame levels.

Even when I was a full time performer I still had a part-time job that actually was paying rent. For about 3 or 4 years I played all the time, but made so little money...(and "lost money". it is very expensive to promote yourself even as an unknown inde.) AND, I'm still paying back money from my CD I made in 2002. I had my eyes opened a couple of years (2005, I think) back when I was hanging out in Austin, and accidentally ran into a well-known regional act that I know...he was on his 5th or 6th?? CD release at the time, but was telling me that he was just now getting to paying off his 3rd record. And he tours full time!

(It should be noted, that I know someone who worked with Gerald LeVert before he had his first hit. His management and label wanted him to quit his day job but he wouldn't do it. He still worked full time. I have no idea what kind of work he was doing. But it's my understanding that he wouldn't quit his day job, even after he HAD his first hit. He just didn't trust the music business or the insecurity of it.)

So I could go on...but having said that, I would do it all over again.

The basics...be VERY good at the music. There is so much mediocre crap out there now days, people don't even actually have to be musicians anymore...so even if you are just above average to mildy entertaining, you might do ok. But I've heard some unkown acts that knocked my socks off, but no one will ever hear them because they, like me, don't have the money to self promote.
Also, familiarize yourself with the business part, because otherwise you will get no where fast.
http://www.performingbiz.com/ I recommend this book. Even if you don't ever try to play professionally, it will give you a good idea of how it works.

There is so much more I could say...I have taken a break from performing for the last two years. I was tired of having no money, and I was working a corporate recruiting job. But I decided to go back to college and finish my music degree. I'll be going back as a senior this fall. I'll probably go into music ed or just education, but I plan to do some small gigs here pretty soon...and i will try to do some stuff in the summers once I am teaching also.

See the thing is...i love songwriting, performing...and I don't mean this in a boastful way, but I'm good at it. But...I've never had the MONEY needed to really pay for the kind of management or legal team that could get me a "break". Having said that, I still hang out where other (working) songwriters can be found. And the most important thing is to keep doing it, the writing and performing, FOR ME, even if I never get big-time.

As long as I keep plugging away, at least I can say I'm doing it.

Personally, I would start to work on whatever you are doing after work and weekends. You need to have things "in order" if you are going to do it.

Anyway, that's my 2cents.

on edit: I meant to say that I'm a singer, songwriter, play rhythm guitar, classical violin, and working on the mandolin and tenor banjo (tuned like a violin).

[mwb970]

39. Think outside the box.

I don't think you can make a living wage the "old" way, by playing individual gigs or even selling a few CDs in the local market. I think you would need an innovative Net-based marketing approach to reach a mass audience for your recordings. Be the "first band to....." something online.

Sorry I don't have a specific brilliant idea - if I did, I'd be doing it!

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

40. If you're thinking about jazz, you can make a living

I know quite a few people surviving in the Los Angeles jazz scene as full-time musicians. It's not easy, but it can be done. My cousin is making a decent living playing jazz guitar in clubs and restaurants. His girlfriend, who is an amazing singer and jazz pianist sometimes gigs with him. I think it helps if you live in a major metropolitan area, because jazz guitar isn't going to be that much appreciated in small town America.

I think it will help to supplement your income with teaching, however. Guys can make good money teaching guitar, if they are really good and well organized. It helps to be extremely talented, because if you play well, some of your listeners in the club will sign on with you as students.

Robert Conti, who is not a household name but is well known in jazz guitar circles as one of the most technically gifted musicians around worked for 10 years at the Marriott Hotel in Laguna Beach, California, doing a solo guitar gig. He apparently made enough to afford a home and raise a family. He plays an 8 string guitar and makes it sound like several guys playing at the same time. But he was smart enough to not just limit himself to playing jazz guitar standards in that expensive hotel lobby. He was really good at schmoozing the customers and sitting at their tables and telling jokes during breaks, making them feel special. Now, I believe he is working full time at a casino in Las Vegas playing guitar in a lounge. And he has a lucrative business selling instructional materials on the Internet for jazz guitar. I've bought his fifteen books of chord melody for jazz standards and they are the best I have ever seen.

[old mark]

41. Don, I was in bar bands for over 15 years

and never made enough money to actually live on. I had to have a day job, ususlly working as a temp in a warehouse or similar shit job to be able to have days off without too much trouble if I got a gig during the week.
I never was able to make even a steady income out of music, and never felt really interested in doing much else.

This is a difficult country to be a creative person in.

mark

[paparush]

42. What's the difference between a large pizza and a musician?

A large pizza can feed a family of four.

Try busking on the street. See if people give you money. See if people hang out and listen to you play. See if other musicians show up and want to jam.