Being black and queer today really fucking sucks.

[Chovexani]

I posted about this in GLBT here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=221&topic_id=86651&mesg_id=86651

Not surprisingly, a couple of Miss Millies outed themselves with the "don't you know what we've done for you people" thing. All over the internets, Operation Blame the Negroes is in full swing. "Those damn black people and their damn homophobia." Never mind the fact, as one blogger on Pam's House Blend pointed out, Prop 8 was not put on the ballot by a black group, the largest Pro-8 faction that gave the most money was the overwhelmingly white Mormon "church", and that Prop 8 still would have passed even if every black voter would have stayed home yesterday.

Over on Shakesville one white lesbian commenter suggested we put slavery to a vote again to teach us a lesson. I am not shitting you.

How do I express my overwhelming pride that a man of African descent was elected to the highest office of the land despite the fact that he accomplished that by benefiting from sexism and homophobia in the black community? And how do I express my overwhelming sadness that the same people who voted to break down one hurdle voted to put even more hurdles up on the very same trip to the polls?

How do I express my disgust with my straight brothers and sisters who say LGBT rights don't matter because LGBT are all rich white people that have enough privileges, that my "lifestyle" is just a sinful choice and I need to get right with God. How do I listen to "STFU you should be celebrating and hey gay people are all rich white hedonists anyway, what is your problem, get some Jesus."

How do I deal with my aunt in Cali who voted yes on 8 and told me I turned my back on the race by "throwing in with the gays" and I needed to marry a good black man and have good black babies. And get Jesus to fix me. How do I cope with knowing 70% of my own people think I deserve to be a second class citizen and not have the same rights that they do.

And how do I deal with my LGBT brothers and sisters writing off every person who shares my pigmentation as a bigot, and an even worse bigot because we have some special obligation to not be as hateful as all the other bigots.

How can I cry enough because no one listens to people like me or even acknowledge that we exist? Who the fuck even wants to try to understand or help that struggle? I'm not feeling like anyone does.

[noiretextatique]

1. i know how you feel

i saw some crap on craigslist w4w about "black people betraying us" and i didn't even bother responding. i don't know where the notion that people are FAR MORE homophobic than anyone else comes from, but it is pure bullshit. someone who did bother to respond to that idiotic post on craigslist reminded the poster that racism still exists in the LGBT community...one could call it a dirty little secret.
and, as i reminded another person here ranting about "the black community hating gays"...LGBT people are a part of the "black community."

i live in california, and i can tell you that the people i know are APPALLED by the passing of prop 8...and there is no way in hell that piece of bigotry will become law...no way. the court has already spoken: no discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation or identity...period, paragraph, end of story.

when i was about 25, a million years ago, an older lesbian told me this:
being a lesbian means learning how to be alone. i had no idea what that meant at the time, but i sure as hell know what she meant now. being a black woman and a lesbian...i really understand what she meant.

don't let the fuckers get you down. and tell your aunt to give me a call...i like a challenge }(
:hug:

[Chovexani]

2. Thanks hon.

It's rough. Fighting foolishness is so tiring and it never stops, it's even worse cause you have to fight the foolishness on all sides. It's like Sophia said in the Color Purple, I never thought I'd have to fight in my own house. I put a lot of time and energy into trying to defeat 102 in AZ up until the day I left the state just because it was a local and immediate concern, but I did give what little money I could to No on 8 too. It just makes me want to throw up my hands and say fuck it. I won't, of course, cause I'm stubborn as a mule and hey I would like to marry my fine lady someday and give her some better health care. It's just rough.

My auntie is so far gone it's not even funny, though. She's a few fries short of a happy meal...definitely one you have to love from a distance. All my cousins but one (the one who voted No) are dysfunctional as hell which is why I find her crap about gays laughable. She was married three times her damn self, it wasn't "the gays" that broke up her marriages, it was her continuing love affair with Monsieurs Daniels, Beam and Morgan that did.

[noiretextatique]

3. you're welcome, sweetie

:hug: we will prevail. i am not sure about the bans in florida and arizona, but the court here already struck down a ban in may. there is no way the same court can overturn the gay marriage ban in may and not find Prop 8 unconstitutional in november...no way in hell. i don't know what recourse people have in florida and arizona, but i am sure lawsuits will be filed. one day, probably one day soon, the issue will have to be resolved by scotus. let's just hope that doesn't happen until we have some new justices.

congrats on having a fine lady :7 i saw my on again off again last night with her latest accessory...a tiny, little midget butch troll with rotten teeth :puke: i'm not at all bitter, though :evilfrown:
i haven't spoken to her in months, but i did manage a hello and a smile last night because i was feeling so good. it was so bittersweet seeing her and wanting to share last night with her, but i made the decision not the be "the bigger person" with her this time. if she can't be a big person, then she's not for me. and...there is no way i'm playing second fiddle to a midget troll :puke:

i was wondering if my cousins in texas would stab me in the back on vote for a gay marriage ban. i suspect some of them would because they are so churchified. you aunt sounds like a real piece of work. i am reminded of my cousin paulette's take on revenge: "living her life is punishment enough." clearly her love for spirits masks something pretty damn ugly in her spirit.

you, on the other hand, have a beautiful, loving spirit.

we will prevail...this is just a small battle in the continuing war :hug:

[Chovexani]

7. Oh lord that sounds like my dad's side of the family

Most are so churchified you can call it a mental illness and not be far off the mark. And also manage to be some of the most petty, hateful people. Dad and said auntie threw grandma into a nursing home and ran to opposite ends of the country. So much for family values. The only ones I have anything to do with on that side of the family are my cousins on the rez in OK and my brother in Kansas 'cause they're all awesome people.

haha about your ex. Funny story: I've got one who fancied herself the campus pimp when we were in school. She had enough exes on campus that we could have started our own student group. And she was one of those lesbians with a huge hate on for bi women because we were supposedly flaky sluts (never mind she was the one that cheated on me). So when I ran into her one day it was great to watch her have fits because I was with my extremely good looking dude. "*snort* oh, you're straight now?" "naw, this is our lady. *whip out photos* isn't she awesome?"

FITS I tell you. I think she was just mad that I managed to find not one but two awesome people that worship the ground I walk on. :D

Thanks for the compliment. Sometimes I don't feel like I have a very beautiful spirit but that's cause I tend to cuss people on the internet out too much. :rofl:

[noiretextatique]

15. great story!

:7 hopefully i can break mz. thang's face like that real soon. i don't put my business in the street the way she does, so she hasn't seen me out with anyone...yet.

a word about cussing people out on the internet: consider it a service that they need and (secretly or not so secretly) want :thumbsup:

[Brewman_Jax]

4. Not one of our better moments

:(

Privilege flies to the top, as usual. Operation "blaming the negroes and the hispanics", just to spread the pain. I've been crunching numbers, and guess who did the lion's share of the damage...? :eyes: straight WASP's, but since they aren't required to vote in favor of LGBT issues, they're off the hook-- :wtf:

It's a no-win situation. All people of color, esp. black people, are ALWAYS SUPPOSED to vote in favor of GLBT issues, "because us minorities gotta stick together!" Too often they conveniently don't bother to vote in black peoples' interests, esp. affirmative action. Black GLBT's have to be doubly chagrined for the reasons you cite above.

Not all LGBT are rich white males, not all black people are bigoted by religion, not all white people are homophobic--and I have no idea how to even begin to address this, except by crunching numbers, and reminding them of who did this.

[jmm]

5. I've been trying to crunch numbers too.

A former professor of mine once told our class about a friend of hers that worked as a producer for CSPAN. When she didn't have time to do some polls she'd make up the numbers. Then of course other networks would report their results. I'm not trying to say that happened with the exit polling but something strikes me as really odd about the prop 8 breakdown. CNN's exit polls seems to be the source of the numbers people are reporting. Out of 2,240 respondents from 4% were black men and 6% were black women. They weren't able to break down how black people voted on the issue based on age or how men voted but the community as a whole was listed as 70% for it and black women as 75% for it. They don't specify where the polling was done. The opinions of 2,240 willing to complete a survey out of millions of voters in thousands of precincts shouldn't be treated as fact. The media is irresponsible at best for reporting these numbers as fact or a true representation and people are somewhat naive if they believe them. Not to say correlations can't be found between race and voting but even if we had accurate numbers it still wouldn't excuse using the voting record of some to judge others.

[Brewman_Jax]

6. That's a good point

Based on the exit poll, here's the demographic data of all in favor of prop 8:

White 1,643,559; Black 372,690; Hispanic 507,992; Asian 156,529; Other 81,459

You make a good point. In addition to the other measuring flaws you found, that very small sample size wouldn't likely pass in a scientific statistical analysis.

[Chovexani]

8. Something interesting I saw

http://blog.christianitytoday.com/ctpolitics/2008/11/how_obama_helpe.html

Yes it's Christianity Today but for a right leaning Jesus rag they tend to be far more even handed than others (they've taken a lot of flack for doing exposes of crooked preachers and took to task the anti-Harry Potter set more than once). Someone crunched the numbers and figured out if every black voter stayed home it still would have passed.

[bliss_eternal]

10. Wow--thanks for this link.

That's a really interesting study. I'm bookmarking this, as I'd like to read more from any Christian that takes on the anti-Harry Potter nuts. I don't consider myself christian, but reading stuff like that tickles me.

[Chovexani]

11. It's a conservative magazine on the whole

But it's interesting to read anyway just for a lens into the rest of the fundie Christian mindset. They spoke out against the Satanic Panic people and have done thorough exposes on the "ex-Satanic High Priest" types that make a fortune on the fundie speaker circuit. Theologically and politically they're in line with the Dobson types but they don't resort to histrionics and demonizing people, which I can respect them for despite disagreeing with them on damn near everything.

[jmm]

13. I can't look into this as much as I'd like to tonight but

like you pointed out this wasn't a scientific statistical analysis and the company that did the polling has a history of flaws.

The same company that handled this year's exit polling botched it in 2000, 2002, 2004, and 2006-

Are Exit Polls Reliable?

.....

But exit polls aren't always reliable, and the controversy surrounding the 2000 election is the most infamous example. The exit pollsters and news organizations awarded Florida to Al Gore before the polls closed and then retracted it. Later, the networks (but not the exit pollsters) awarded Florida to George W. Bush--and then retracted that call, too.

.....

The machinery was overhauled for the 2002 elections, but that year, massive technical failures botched exit poll reporting. In 2004, and again in 2006, the exit poll overstated Democrats' performance. In the 1,460 exit poll precincts where Edison/Mitofsky collected both exit poll tallies and actual final vote returns in 2004, the exit poll results overstated the actual difference between John Kerry and Bush by 6.5 points in Kerry's favor.

.....

Can these past problems be overcome on Tuesday night? To compensate for the potential oversampling of Democrats, Edison/Mitofsky have improved interviewer training and are using fewer young interviewers. (Supposedly they approach people in a random patern so why the emphasis on the age of interviewers :shrug: )



California has over 20,000 precincts. Only 300 nation wide and anywhere between 15 to 50 precincts in the state, roughly 149-49 people per location, were surveyed. If the numbers were correct it still wouldn't justify any broad-brushed attacks but the more I read about the company that handled the polling the more concerned I am.


How the Poll Was Conducted

The national results are based on 17,244 voters in 300 precincts across the United States. These include 2,378 absentee voters and early voters interviewed by telephone.

The state results are based on on 869 to 3,350 voters in 15 to 50 randomly selected precincts across each of 18 states analyzed by The Times. In certain states, some interviews were also conducted by telephone with absentee voters and early voters. In Colorado and Washington, all interviews were by telephone.

.....


Exit Poll Mess - 2008 The Past is Prologue

Wash. DC) Did you know that 2004 was not a "red versus blue" election? Did any analysis that you heard or read mention that the very red rural voting segment went from 23% of the vote total in 2000 to 16% in 2004? How about the 2.4 million fewer votes Bush received in the smaller 2004 rural segment than in 2000? All of this showed up in the exit polls on Election Day and the day after when the "official" exit poll was released.

The national exit polls are sponsored by the National Election Pool (media consortium) consisting of ABC, CBS, CNN, FOX, and NBC, and the Associated Press. The polling is conducted for the media consortium by Edison - Mitofsky. The same day poll for federal elections seeks to capture who voted, where, and why.*

The exit poll gave us another surprise, one that was necessary for the poll to match up with the announced vote totals showing Bush winning by a 3 million vote margin, 50.7% to 48.3%.

.....


Edited to add I was curious what it said about my own state so I looked it up and they polled 767 people in Massachusetts. They didn't provide any info other than percent of total for any minorities and numerous other categories of voters-

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/results/polls/#MAP00p1

[bliss_eternal]

19. Disturbing.

Please do let us know if you find anything else, and thanks so much for sharing this! :hi:

Am I the only one that thinks/feels the categories used in polls are outdated, biased and stupid? The categories seems so obviously manipulative.

[jmm]

21. I'm still working on trying to get more details of the exit

polls. The company that did it charges quite a bit to access the raw data so I've sent a few emails to other places and will cross my fingers hoping that somebody will respond and share the info. I have seen a few people post surveys that seem to back up the exit polls but the categories in those were also manipulative and they didn't provide many, if any, details about the studies. I can't help but look at them and think of the Dihydrogen Monoxide: Unrecognized Killer study which has been repeated numerous times with similar results.

I did find this one where 35,000 were surveyed and the beliefs of those who attended historically African American churches weren't much different that those of the general population.



http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/10/22/MN0N13L0FR.DTL

Churches are the most influential organizations in the black community, which accounts for 6 percent of the state population and 12 percent of the national population. Demographic surveys of churchgoing African Americans reveal that the community is somewhat more inclined to restrict gay rights - but not as much as some think.

In a survey of 35,000 Americans about religious beliefs conducted by the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life, 46 percent of those who attend historically African American churches believe that society should discourage homosexuality, while 40 percent believe that society should accept it. The survey didn't address the many African Americans who no longer attend historically black churches.

Those figures compare with the general U.S. population, in which only 40 percent believe that society should discourage homosexuality, the survey found. Those attending historically African American churches are far more accepting of gays and lesbians than white evangelicals or Mormons, who favor societal restrictions at rates of 64 and 68 percent, respectively.

As much as I supported Obama and thought he was the best person, regardless of race or gender, the reactions of some to this issue confirm racial biases won't disappear with his election.

[bliss_eternal]

9. You and all my glbt blk & latino sisters have been on my heart....

...all day and night,...everytime I've read these sort of comments. :cry::hug:

I do my best, but I'm honestly exhausted by it all (and disgusted). I don't know what to say to any of these people anymore.

People who I've come to admire and respect on these boards for their ability to stand up to sweeping statements about women, have all too readily painted broad brushed strokes about race, and deny it when called on it. All I can think is wow--is that what feminism taught you? Then I remember Audre Lord's comments about women of color being left out of "their feminism." :(

I feel like I just found out there is no Santa Clause, the Easter Bunny was shot on my lawn and the Tooth Fairy od'd next to my bed while leaving money under my pillow.

[Chovexani]

12. Oh bliss

You are an angel on earth and I'm not lying. :hug:

Every time I get discouraged like this I see something you or others say that gives me a little more faith.

Right now the pain is raw and running deep and folks are lashing out from a place of anger, I keep trying to keep that in mind but then I'm reminded of my cousin Nate and why he only goes to black Pride. He's one of those unapologetically femme ministers of music that every black church in America has and quietly tolerates as long as they keep singing and keep quiet about their lives outside of church. He has just had one too many white guys wanting to date him to prove something or the other extreme, staring at him funny for being the only black in the bar.

What kills me is this assumption that blacks have a greater obligation not to be bigots just because of what we've been through. Some black folks we can't even get to support black civil rights issues. Ward Connerly, Armstrong Williams and Clarence Thomas anyone? :banghead:

[noiretextatique]

16. kismet...i just went on a rant about the expectation

that black people are more moral or sane or whatever than other people. it's a part of the magical negro syndrome and it will be so interesting to how it affects obama's presidency.

david gergen (i can't stand him, btw) was on oprah yesterday and this is what he said:

"I can't tell you how much of a debt we in the South owe to John Lewis and Martin Luther King and others who opened our eyes and really lifted whites as much as blacks."

really, david? :eyes: since you acknowledge the debt, why not talk to your peeps about some reparations?

someone posted that in a thread yesterday, and i was already in a bad mood because of prop 8, and this just made it worse. truly i understand the sentiment...i get it. but when i heard that, i thought of emmet till's mother and the relatives of countless others murdered during slavery and apartheid and...it just made me so angry.

[bliss_eternal]

17. Yikes.

Gergen? He's still booked on talk shows? Bleh. Really glad I missed that.

I don't know why but the term "magic negro" makes me lmao. Maybe it's my recall of so many ridiculous comments that accompanied that thread on DU. Or perhaps it's knowing all that goes with such an implication. (sigh)

Hey, should we all don capes, or start passing out magic wands?

Personally, I know my strength and what I'm capable of, and many of life's challenges add to that strength over time. I'm just not sure if I can carry so many people on my shoulders. ;)

[kwassa]

14. I just amazed at the intolerance of so-called progressives

but it is really true that someone can be progressive only about the issue that concerns them, and bigoted about others. The assumption that someone is progressive from one area of concern to another can turn out quite false. I'm pretty shocked about the attacks on DU on black voters yesterday, and on Mormons today, and much of the venom in those attacks stems from ignorance, not to forgive the ignorance of those voting for Prop 8. It is almost a perfect mirror of reflection of one intolerance for another. This is progressive, or even intelligent?

[bliss_eternal]

18. So today we're mad at Mormons...?

:spray:

Wow. I've missed a lot. Thanks for filling me in...I'll go change into my "F*** the Mormons" shirt and out of my, "I swear I voted No on 8...please stop stoning me!" shirt.

Hey, kwassa :hi: I just got here about 20 mins. ago and came directly to this area. I haven't looked around yet.
Last time I was here (wee hours of this am) the collective still seemed to be blaming blacks and latinos. I was starting the process of filing paperwork with my asian sisters and brothers for political asylum and temporary status, so I could escape the weight of all the blaming. ;)

Sorry to be silly. But it's hard to be serious in the face of so many (predictable) and rather violent trigger reactions. The truly goofy thing is, in CA I don't know that the count is complete, yet--because of the absentee ballots, etc. Also, it's very close...it's not like this was a landslide by any means.

But so many here seemed to be ready to presume failure, and start finger pointing regarding the impending loss...immediately. Heck, when less than 30% of the count was in you could see the blame game beginning. It was still so early in the process. I knew then, this was going to get ugly. Wish I was wrong. :(

[bliss_eternal]

20. Update--

I can't seek refuge among my asian bros. and sisters. Apparently ire is growing toward them as well. (sigh)

[psychmommy]

22. chovy i am getting pissed off too.

it is freakin friday and it is still my fault. i don't even live in cali. i came here for some love. and here is some love and support back to my aa family. to my lgbt family i don't judge and i will continue to have an open heart and mind for you. but, i am about to snap on some of these white folks because i am getting tired of hearing the blame game.
alright i am going back in. yall may have to pull a sister up off somebody-hahahaha

[cyndensco]

23. When I woke up Wed. morning, the first thing I looked for was the result of Prop. 8.

It was still undecided, but leaning "yes." I hoped against hope that it would eventually be defeated but that did not happen.

Late last week, someone had posted a hate-filled video of some proponents of the proposition in Oakland and I was disappointed (but not thoroughly surprised) that the loudest protesters were black women. I called my 70+ year-old aunt (pronounced "aunt, not "ant") who lives in Oakland to see which side she was supporting. She had already voted absentee and I was relieved (but again, not surprised) that she had voted against it. I really thought a state as progressive as California would certainly vote it down.

My sons attend an HBCU in Virginia and each has been surprised by the homophobia of some of their classmates. They both suggest it is the more deeply devout folk who have the problem with it and I'm proud they do not share the sentiment.


May I ask you a procedural question I have had but hesitated to ask elsewhere? If Prop. 8 had been defeated, nothing including California's constitution would have changed, right? Couldn't the proponents have kept adding the proposition to every ballot until they received the result they wanted? Is there anything that can be done now that it has been approved? What about after your constitution is actually changed?

I sincerely hope that one day this nation will adopt the concept, "Live and let live." Until then, stay proud.
:hug:

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[my2sense]

26. Other Friendly Forums?

Hell I'm not even in California and now I'm somebodies damn enemy. I've been a member of DU for awhile and started posting several months ago because I had finally found an inclusive, comfortable forum on the net. Lately I'm not feeling "comfortable" anymore since now my race is an issue.

Can folks list other progressive/general discussion boards you frequent?

[HamdenRice]

27. DailyKos, but it's difficult to navigate

And they've been upfront saying the "blacks did it" meme is bullshit.

[Brewman_Jax]

37. This thread was locked

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x7859493

Notice that they blew past my post to blame black people and "why can't we talk about homophobia in the black community?" as if that's the total cause of the problem; not to mention the rude and racist context.

The thread was mercifully locked.

[Name removed]

42. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cate94]

25. I am sorry

that you are getting it from all sides.

I am a lesbian.
I am white.
I've been crying about this too.

I read an interesting post about this being another attempt to divide us.
Divide and conquer. Don't let them do it.

I also got an e-mail from "No on 8". The e-mail is called "Stand Together". This is the last paragraph:

"We achieve nothing if we isolate the people who did not stand with us in this fight. We only further divide our state if we attempt to blame people of faith, African American voters, rural communities and others for this loss. We know people of all faiths, races and backgrounds stand with us in our fight to end discrimination, and will continue to do so. Now more than ever it is critical that we work together and respect our differences that make us a diverse and unique society. Only with that understanding will we achieve justice and equality for all."

I am really sorry that this setback has has taken a bigger toll on the African Americans in the GLBT community. It was a kick in the gut for all of us and frankly the low voter turnout in SF should really be the place fingers should be pointing. If you are GLBT and live in CA and didn't go vote, you are personally responsible. Period.

That said, we have no choice but to pick ourselves up and start again. We have a lot of work to do.

[HamdenRice]

28. Another "explanation" for Prop 8: Blacks are sexually dysfunctional

I don't know where this was dug up, but it was written unfortunately by a black scholar.

As used on DU, the basic idea is "we" voted for Prop 8 is because we're sexually dysfunctional, hyper masculine and incapable of intimacy. This post calls for "understanding" us as though we are patients in a mental hospital:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4403469&mesg_id=4403469

[Two Americas]

29. thanks Chovexani

Great thread. Intelligent discussions about this are pretty rare right now.

:hug:

[Psyop Samurai]

30. I am truly humbled by this thread...

I'm a GWM and have never been to this forum before.

There is much to process, and while I dismissed some of the more stupid eruptions as inconvenient distractions, it's clear that the emotionally charged nature of things has inhibited best discussion all around, and in that I am no exception.

I have nothing further to add at the moment, except that it's clear that we need to proceed from a place of better understanding, and the best place to start in that regard is with myself.

Thanks much for this.

:hug:

[bliss_eternal]

31. ...no need to be a stranger.

No one here bites,...unless of course you're into that sort of thing. ;) :hi:

[freestyle]

32. We have to keep building strong Black GLBT communities.

That is not about separatism, but building the strong networks needed to stand up and be visible and powerful in Black straight communities and White gay communities.

Although there has been progress, we are still largely invisible. Our diversity is not known, or acknowledged. One important thing is for more of us to be out. But, that gets into almost a chicken and egg question. We need to be out to make progress, but in too many places there is nothing affirming to come out to. Knowing history is important, so that we know what GLBT people of color have done throughout history. We are not upsetting the world, but reclaiming our rightful place in holding it up. Lift up people like Bayard Rustin, Barbara Jordan, Lorraine Hansberry, Alice Walker, Alvin Ailey, Audre Lorde and countless others who lived, and live, for their people and to leave the world better than they found it. Stay strong.

[psychmommy]

33. i think the black community as a whole loses if we don't

show love for our black lgbt family. you are our bros/sisters, children, parents, aunts/uncles, cousins, friends, teachers, writers and entertainers. i think our younger lgbt folks suffer from a lack of positive role models. as you strengthen your communities, it will strengthen the black community as a whole.

[kwassa]

34. What to do

I dislike those who are very judgmental, and when one group of people call others who they don't know bigots based on questionable and incomplete information I don't take it very well.

Someone posted an OP last night that was pretty well thought out on this Prop 8 controversy, and asked to engage in a thoughtful discussion. When I did so I discovered that the author was polite and civil and utterly stuck on the idea that all black voters who voted yes on 8 were bigots, and was unwilling to consider any other possibility. I was also attacked by another for trying to mount a reasoned argument for all to keep an open mind. There was no attempt for civility by this one.

I'm done. I don't know how to deal with this racist bullshit.

[bliss_eternal]

35. Your efforts are so appreciated...

:hug:
...and I can understand the sentiment of, "I'm done." Unfortunately, I don't think any of us (as human beings) can change "closed minds."

Closed minds seem only capable of seeing that which is in line with their world view, whatever that may be. If that view includes the idea that an entire group of people is___(fill in the blank)____, that's what they are going to believe--no matter what. Present a closed mind with ideas, information or facts that contradict that view, they will reject it.

The problem here seems less about a set of "facts" presented, and more about the ideas people have already bought into for whatever reason. Close minds aren't capable of admitting this. They committed a long time ago to the idea that whatever they believe is derived on someone else's behavior. Or in other words, "if this person didn't hate me--I wouldn't feel this way." As if they have no choice in the matter at all. ;)



"When we blame, we give away our power."
Greg Anderson


Hatred does not cease through hatred at any time. Hatred ceases through love. This is an unalterable law.
Buddha

:hug:

[kwassa]

36. Thanks, bliss.

I finally did completely desist, but it did leave a bitter feeling about how progressive some people really are, and how willing they are to follow their biases and prejudices. When minds are closed on those subjects, it can be pretty deadly.

Anyway, the issue has finally died down, there was much heat, but I'm not sure there was too much light. There was a bit of insight with some that could see both sides.

[Karenina]

38. I think one thing that has been laid bare

in all this hullaballoo, is the SPLIT along racial lines in the GLBT community. It reflects the dominant community pustule and is nothing to get exercised about. Its lancing is a GREAT OPPORTUNITY to heal many wounds. Would that the perceived "white, middle-class, Gay Community" ever acknowledge the non-whites in their midst.

I saw a wonderful video from the ACLU on our Political Videos Forum. But GUESS WHAT??? NO families of colour!!! Black kids rescued by white gays and NO FAMILIES OF COLOUR!

[noiretextatique]

39. it's a huge issue, honestly

i've talked to several of my black glbt friends and to a one, they all voted against prop 8...but they cited other issues as more important to their daily lives. issues like the economy, racism, aids, etc. again, while they did not support prop 8, they did not believe this issue was the number one issue affecting their lives.

[bliss_eternal]

40. The feelings of your friends...

...would you say they are close to the comments shared in Jasmyne Cannick's editorial/opinion piece in the Times? Or to a lesser degree?

[noiretextatique]

41. to a lesser degree

yes, without the hostility :7 the people i talked to have more pressing concerns in their lives than the ability to marry, but they still voted no on 8.
and then of course there's the isms within the gay community that few are willing to discuss. that part of cannick's op/ed really hit home. simply put, blackness seems to far more of an issue for the people i talked to than gayness. i have always felt that way, personally. for example, i feel more comfortable here than i do in the GBLT forum. i think i am a pariah over there now (a.m.i.i.g.a.f.).

i live in as black and as gay of a world as i can construct. while i do make an effort to meet and mix with people who aren't gay or black, it's just easier to stay within my community. i can tell you more about this, but not in this forum.

[kwassa]

43. I've read your stuff

in the other forum, and you have been very clear and wonderful and on point.

I've held my tongue reading it all, as hetero in a gay forum. I can't have your perspective.

I still don't think most get it, and if they do, they aren't saying it.

[bliss_eternal]

44. I agree...

...really solid and thought provoking, well--made me think. lol.

As one that posted frequently in the area (glbt) before any of this, I've commented here and there. But not much. Like you, kwassa I've sat on my hands and NOT commented on some things. I'm trying to allow for people's feelings. I don't think/feel it's appropriate (right now) for me to address certain issues, as some are still too emotional (anger, sad, frustrated, etc.) to consider some stuff. So I'm giving some their space.

[FreeState]

46. I know this is an old post but I have a question...

Someone posted an OP last night that was pretty well thought out on this Prop 8 controversy, and asked to engage in a thoughtful discussion. When I did so I discovered that the author was polite and civil and utterly stuck on the idea that all black voters who voted yes on 8 were bigots, and was unwilling to consider any other possibility. I was also attacked by another for trying to mount a reasoned argument for all to keep an open mind.

Im wondering what you see as the other possibilities? Not trying to argue about that but trying to understand how it could not be bigoted... (I view everyone - no matter their color or orientation bigoted if they vote to take away rights from anyone... )

[kwassa]

47. .

[Two Americas]

48. turn that around

The assertion made was "all black voters who voted yes on 8 were bigots, and was unwilling to consider any other possibility."

What we need is an explanation of how that could possibly be true, not an explanation of how that could not possibly be true.

You agree with that statement, it seems. Defend it.

[kwassa]

49. I thought that I explained this very thoroughly in the other thread ...

"I view everyone - no matter their color or orientation bigoted if they vote to take away rights from anyone... "

This is a common saying here on DU, but it is not an accurate discription of bigotry, because the vote itself tells nothing about the mindset of the individual voters.

First, this is what bigotry is:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bigotry

A bigot is a person who is intolerant of opinions, lifestyles or identities differing from his or her own, and bigotry is the corresponding attitude or mindset. Bigot is often used as a pejorative term to describe a person who is obstinately devoted to prejudices, especially when these views are either challenged, or proven to be false or not universally applicable or acceptable.

The problem is this: To know if any single voter is bigoted, you must know the beliefs of each voter in regards to other groups. The vote alone does not reveal that, and to call someone bigoted without knowing that is a form of prejudice in and of itself. The word "prejudice" literally means to pre-judge.

There could be different reasons for black voters to vote in favor of Prop 8, which I stated multiple times over in the threads in the other forum. One reason is a socially conservative attitude about marriage, as many African-Americans are socially conservative. Another could be that they didn't know or realize that they were taking away rights from others, as the argument had never been made to them, due to little contact between the gay communities and the black communities. I think there is little interaction between the two communities, by and large, and there is a lot of cultural myopia on both sides. Some voters may have thought that they were voting in favor of their traditional concept of marriage of being one man and one woman, a concept that has been around many hundreds of years. This is compared to the relatively new phenomenon of same sex marriage, which the black voters probably haven't even thought about much yet because they've had little reason to, unless they are gay.

And some voters may simply be bigots. Whatever their reasons, without knowing those reasons one can not call them bigoted as a group without exhibiting bigotry oneself, in my opinion, as their motivations and beliefs cannot be ASSUMED. You have to ask them to find out why they voted the way they voted, and no one has done that, as far as I can tell. The mad angry rush to judge these voters was quite frightening and revealing, unfortunately.

[FreeState]

53. Thank you

I may have missed the other threads - to be honest I shied away from most of them because I was not ready to digest everything that was going on. Its been a very painful month for a lot of us and Im just now starting to logically digest some of my feelings. (Although I did call out some people on several threads about this very topic).

Thanks for the explanation - I had not thought of it this way - Im not sure I agree 100% but I see were you are coming from. I get the intent part very well - my family is all Mormon and I understand that their intentions sometimes do not match reality. I think a lot of gay people, myself included, sometimes overlook the background of opponents to equality - and thats a mistake GLBT persons need to stop doing. I did not take into account that there may be people who simply did not see that they were taking rights away from me - and thats a hard one for a lot of people to grasp because when you live your life as a gay person its so obvious that its hard to believe people dont see it that way - but your right thats because the other people have a completely different life experience. Its painfully obviously to me that the GLBT community, and this includes my self unfortunately, have made alot of mistakes in stereotyping the black community and very little time has been spent actually building bridges of understanding and common interests.

Its very hard for one to step outside of themselves when everything seems to have been turned on its head - and I think thats what happened with the campaign and the aftermath of the election unfortunately. If we are not willing to try and understand why people vote the way they do, or believe what they believe we will never change anything.

Thanks again for taking the time to reply to my question. :)

[kwassa]

55. Each group understands their own oppression.

This does not mean that they necessarily have any knowledge or sensitivity to the oppression of others. Although I think many gays are sympathetic and supportive of black civil rights, I find that many do so in the abstract, as most gays and most blacks are socially segregated from one another. Because of that segregation, each group reflects the viewpoint of it's community and culture, and each group doesn't particularly know the other. Of course there are exceptions to this, I'm speaking in broad generalities.

I think the cause of gay marriage can be sold to at least a majority of African-Americans if presented that separate is not equal, a principle they fully understand. I don't think there has been any attempt to do that yet, and I hope to see that, soon.

[FreeState]

56. I agree with you on all of that

It very disappointing to me to see the GLBT community make the same mistakes over and over (and I should specify white Gays and Lesbians in particular IMO). I was at several Christmas parties this weekend - one with over 80 people - and not a single person of color was there. We as a gay community need to take a good hard look at ourselves and make some fundamental changes - not just on a political stand point - but interpersonally as well. I did bring this up with the organizer of the largest party I attended - but with little luck. Im planning on a different approach next time when he isnt in the middle of a party and drinking (hes a good friend of mine). There was also a lot of talk about Prop 8 and several comments I tried to correct in regards to race and voting patterns. The miss information out there is scarry - one person whom tried to act like the information they had was more reliable than others said that black women voted for 8 because they were pissed off because of men on the "down low". When I pointed out the exit polls did not have a large enough sample of people of color to be reliable I was told I just did not have access to the right data. When I pointed out that no exit polls ask questions about "down low" etc I got silence and a change of subject. Its just unbelievable.


I think your right about the separate is not equal point of view. I was surprised that it was not used in the election. Im still surprised we are not doing anything about it now. If you know of anyone working on this please let me know. I would gladly send some money to an ad campaign on this - and think we need to start now. If we wait until its election time its too late - and this is an issue people need to see and realize regardless if there is an important election or not.

Do you think educating people about civil unions being separate and unequal will work on all age groups or mostly the older generations? I realize most younger people are pro-equality and the older you are the more likely you are to not be supportive (I think this is true of all races and backgrounds comparatively) but there is still room for improvement for the younger people too. Younger people have had a different life experience than us older ones - in a way they are more comfortable and evolved than I was at their age - but they also tend to take a lot for granted.

[bliss_eternal]

59. Wow...

...I appreciate your sharing about the christmas parties you attended (and the lack of diversity present). Thank you for attempting to offer other perspectives, and trying to challenge the status quo on these issues. I'm sorry to read that you were met with changes of subject and silence. Did the response (or lack thereof) surprise you?

[FreeState]

61. It did surprise me...

The host of the party is a good friend of mine. He has gay black neighbors that I have met several times before - and I still cant believe he did not invite his own neighbors.

But mostly it made me feel angry/sad/disappointed all at the same time. It also made me want to do something about it.

Before the party we were at a friends house for their 3 year old daughters birthday party. Their daughter calls both my partner and I her uncle. Her parents are a white straight couple that adopted her as a newborn - she is black. This party was full of gay, straight, asian, black and hispanic friends. My friends daughter has always known we are a couple like her parents are. She has been raised so far around us and sees us as we are - a happy healthy couple. She is exposed to a very diverse group of people, not only in looks but religion etc, on a daily basis. Talk about contrast.

[bliss_eternal]

64. That's quite a contrast.

My mother (informally) adopted a co-worker, she called him her little brother. I called him 'uncle.' She attended his wedding to a woman, and embraced him when he divorced his wife because he wanted to "come out." He was Jewish (as is part of my family). Our home was a lot like the one you described in that there was a lot of diversity welcomed within.

As such, I didn't grow up with knowledge of 'homophobia'--black or otherwise. :shrug: I only encountered the idea of 'black homophobia' a few years ago. It took me by surprise, as I didn't grow up w/it. But I try to not be dismissive of others experiences of it. I knew of religious intolerance toward gay people, though. Anyone that grew up w/religion was exposed to that on one level or another.

I learned as an adult of a cousin that was gay, or possibly transgendered (it's all been rather vague) that committed suicide when I was a child. As a catholic, biracial gay male living in a post civil rights world--I can't imagine what he endured or the various communities he felt rejected by.

[FreeState]

66. Sounds like you have an awesome mom

Despite being raised in a very Mormon household my mother is one of the people I look up to most because she never allowed bigotry or hatred towards anyone of color or other religious faiths. Not much was ever said about gay rights. I did not even realize there was racism directed towards anyone other than blacks until I was in my 20s. I was either very naive or sheltered LOL. Thats not to say I dont have any latent or learned racism and homophobia - because I do. I think we all do unfortunately. All we can do is recognize it and decide not to let it rule us. Both racism and homophobia cause more harm to the person who allows those thoughts to control themselves rather than to those that are the target of such thoughts (outside of violence and bigoted legislation of course).

I personally have never experienced any homophobia by anyone of color. I worked on the No On Prop 22 campaign and every single black man and woman I talked to was supportive - same with No On 8 - Im sure there are homophobes of all stripes but I tend to run into it with white people. Im a short little guy that seems to attract the biggest black men around - straight and gay - and despite our differences we seem to always get along. At a Prince concert once there was a guy that had to be 6 foot 5 and 300 lbs that kept buying me beer all night long even though he knew I was gay and he obviously was not (he was there with his wife).

My heart always goes out to transgendered persons. I can only imagine the pain they are forced to go through to be themselves.

Thats great that you were raised in such an open environment. Hopefully one day that will become the norm:)

[bliss_eternal]

67. I read your post....

...about leaving the mormon church--I felt badly for what you were going through. :hug:

My mother was kind, loving and accepting of many people.....but unfortunately, not of me. lol. In spite of that, I'll always be grateful for what she taught me about having an open heart toward others. I share this to be honest, and also to because so many seem to believe in putting people in boxes. That people are either all one thing or the other (good, bad, evil, etc.)

I know humanity isn't black or white, but many varying shades of grey. There are good people that do bad things, and vice versa.

Quote:
Both racism and homophobia cause more harm to the person who allows those thoughts to control themselves rather than to those that are the target of such thoughts (outside of violence and bigoted legislation of course).

I've wondered a lot about this, and feel I'm coming to believe in the truth of this statement.

There's something 'different' about people like you...those I've talked with who share they've never experienced certain kinds of intolerance from certain people. I wonder if it has anything to do with how you think, feel and believe. Maybe you don't experience these things because you don't give it weight or power in your world?

Interesting....

I've seen Prince in concert, too. Which tour was it (if I may ask)?

[kwassa]

60. You need to reach the influential figures in the black community

The biggest influences are black churches, and not all churches are conservative. That is probably the best place for change. The NAACP voiced its support for gay marriage at one California rally, and that would be another important avenue, particularly for older people.

I am sure there are many online black political forums where approaches could be made.

Getting black celebrities to step forward on the issue would be another approach.

A much better source than me would be the black gay participants on DU that could give you opinions on two things; how to reach the larger black community, and how to heal the rift between black and white gay worlds.

Here is a good research source for figures on support of gay marriage. It shows that attitudes among whites have shifted somewhat over the past few years, although a majority oppose marriage, they also support civil unions. The figures for blacks haven't really changed, which shows that little work has been done there.

http://pewresearch.org/pubs/868/gay-marriage

here is where your party debater probably got his opinion, from no data at all, but this op-ed piece that is wrong-headed. This piece is pure conjecture, in my opinion, but made a bit of a splash at the time:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/29/opinion/29blow.html

[FreeState]

62. Thanks for the links

I had not read the NY Times article before - at least now I know were its from if it comes up again. I agree its pure conjecture and as a pretty big feminist it pissed me off quite a bit - nothing like making women into powerless vengeful people. Why must we scape goat anyone?!?!

Thanks for the Pew poll too - interesting. We definitely have a lot of work to do their. My partner and I were trying to find a soup kitchen to volunteer at on Christmas day - something you would think that would be easy. Well they all say they do not need anyone. I think Im going to try and find a black church and call and see if there is anything we can help with on Christmas day - I found several online that are in my area that I know have outreach ministries to the homeless and poor. Im a little at a loss on how to get involved and this might be a good opportunity to find somewhere we can work together on a common goal without bringing up anything other than serving others.

[bliss_eternal]

50. Yes, it is an "old post."

So it's curious as to why you are expressing interest in it at this time.
Even more curious is why you are doing so after posting this here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=258x4999


I'm not requesting an explanation for either, as I feel I understand what's going on.
Just letting you know your actions are in my opinion, transparent and contradictory in nature.

[FreeState]

52. Im trying to understand how we can work together better by opening a dialog

Now that its been a month since the election Im trying to understand more about what happened and how we can work together - I have no intention of fighting over anything and I just wanted to see where you were coming from so that I could better understand. Despite this being an old post the thread has been on the top of this forum for over a month now.

I feel like you think Im attacking you for asking a question and trying to get involved - sorry if I came across that way,. that is not and has never been my intention.

[bliss_eternal]

54. Ok.

I'm going to take you at your word, for now. But I ask that you consider the following.

How would you feel if I only wanted to talk to you about Charles Knipp?

If I used your identity as a gay male to demand explanations from you about his act, apologies for his existence and asserted over and over again that he (and you), and Rupaul and his other supporters should know better--being members of a minority group and all?
If I did all of this without ever bothering to ask if you personally have seen his show, if you've supported him or to inquire how you feel about him or his shows? If I just lumped you in w/the many other white gay males that routinely participate in exercises of racial discrimination and decided to question you about them, and their motivations?

Would it be appropriate for me to expect you to speak for them?

(btw, Knipp is a gay caucasian male who makes a great deal of money performing in black face, as a stereotype of a black woman--complete with poor grammar, dialogues about what he/she should do w/her welfare check, etc. His shows have gone underground but continue to play to sold out clubs in white, male gay areas--like SF's castro district. Fyi--i'm not linking to any info. on him as I prefer to not to give him more undeserved publicity. But if you are interested, let me know and I can provide a link to an article on him.)

Also, please consider why no one seems to be spending much time communicating with anyone outside of one specific community about this proposition, even after it was revealed that the election poll results were flawed.

[FreeState]

57. I get where your coming from

I really do - however could you turn this around and put yourself in my shoes and see how unwelcoming this appears? I feel like your attacking my sincerity over the only two posts I have ever made here and very little knowledge of who I am and what I stand for. Should one have to prove themselves or take an interest in every issue on this board before they can start a dialog or educate themselves? Does it matter what brought a person to the point where they are trying to make a difference? Just because I have not posted here before this issue does not mean I do not have any interest in other issues pertaining to this board. Sure it was the motivating factor for me to start reading the AA forum - but there are other issues Im interested in learning about and working on.

No community or group of people is 100% on the same page ever and trying to speak for a community or demanding one person speak for them is not healthily or helpful IMO. If someone asked me to speak for any group of people I belong to I would say I can give you my opinion but I can not speak for everyone. How could I?

Knipp is an ass IMO. I have never seen him speak, never visited a page of his and never will. If it was up to me anyone who exposed that type of racism and covert hatred for any other human being would be banned from my community - however as I said I dont speak for the LGBT community - just myself. I have spoken out about him when he has come up in conversations and most of my family and friends know I wont stand for that type of hatred in my house or around me.

I think it would be a colossal mistake to not talk about Prop 8 with people in other communities. I have personally spoken out about Prop 8 to LDS church members, Evangelicals and Catholics. I have spoken to my Mormon family about how painful it is and have had my membership removed from the records (I have not been in many many years, not have I supported the Church in anyway since I left way back when over women's rights issues and Blacks and the Priesthood - which in an of itself would take another thread to discuss). I have spoken to everyone on my street about it - no matter what their background - and my street is extremely diverse. So I respectfully disagree that its not being discussed outside of of one specific community. At least not in my personal experiance. I have never blamed any group of people for the passage of Prop 8 except for individuals that voted for it regardless of whom they were and plenty of blame is to be had in the GLBT community for many many reasons - from running an awful campaign to not stopping it from being placed on the ballot in the first place. If you dont believe me please search my name in the GLBT forum.

Im looking forward to getting to know you and the posters in this forum better and hoping I learn a lot and hopefully make a difference in the process.

[bliss_eternal]

58. I understand...

...and I'd like to offer a sincere apology to you. I'm sorry that you felt unwelcome based on my post. I hope you can find it in your heart to consider my apology, as well as where my comments came from.

There's no way you could know this, but the deletions in this thread are from glbt visitors that felt the need to "share" regarding "prop 8." People that haven't contributed here previously, but felt compelled to defend comments (they didn't make, btw).

My post was an attempt to point out how inappropriate (and unfair) it is to be on the receiving end of such comments and assumptions. No individual can speak for an entire group, nor can individuals speak for other individuals. But this was my interpretation of many of the comments in the aftermath of prop 8....a collective expectation (and demand) that blacks needed to answer for those that voted in support of prop 8. Even after quite a few black DU'ers made it known they didn't support this proposition. How can individuals that didn't support something, explain the motivations of others (who supported it)? :shrug:

I saw threads saying, "hey...I'm black, I didn't vote for this...I support glbt equality," etc. But such comments were by and large met with,"...we need to discuss black homophobia....NOW!" I saw no demands to discuss white homophobia, or hatred from any other racial group. As if the entire problem rested on the shoulders of the black community.

Too few seemed willing to denounce much of this as divisive media tactics, like the term, "black on black crime."

Sorry, I didn't mean to go on a tangent. lol. All of this is just to say, I shouldn't have assumed your appearance here was more of the same, and I'm very sorry I did that.

:hug:

p.s. I appreciate your comments on Knipp. I primarily brought him up to illustrate a point. But it's good to know you are aware of him and the support many glbt's (and white heteros) have shown him. :puke:

[FreeState]

63. No worries

I missed what was going on here - thankfully. Even though it made me feel a little unwelcome it gave me the opportunity to think about my own reaction this past weekend rather than reply - I needed to internalize it and think about both my actions/intent and tried to place myself on the other side of the fence. We all make mistakes and assumptions - its part of life fortunately - we would never learn anything if we were always perfect or correct :) I make more mistakes and assumptions than I care to admit... and Im sure I will make many many more.

Im sorry this board was a target after the election - suffering only leads to more suffering and us Democratic supporters should know better than to misplace our anger.

:pals:

[bliss_eternal]

65. Thank you.

...for your kind words and thoughts. I shouldn't have been reactionary, but guess I'm human too.
I don't know that this area was targeted as much as it was "observed." lol.

Some were curious about what was said here after the controversy and that's totally natural. Some were brought here by references made to posts (in other forums). It's human nature that some would feel the need to defend comments made by members they identify with.

I understand that some of what occured (in both forums) was reactionary and came from pain, anger and a place of confusion. No one likes to see aspects of their identity attacked on any level, or those they love and care about diminished. So it was a trying time for all involved. :hug::grouphug:

[Brewman_Jax]

45. Even Leonard Pitts

normally the advocate, has fallen into the trap--http://www.miamiherald.com/living/columnists/leonard-pitts/story/767511.html

I thought that he was smarter than that. :(

[bliss_eternal]

51. Made me sad to see this, too....

It was posted on DU during the height of the prop. 8 insanity, as a "valiadation." :(
I think I bookmarked it. I may link it in the best of thread, in time. I haven't decided if I will continue providing links to the special edition thread.